My World Atlas says that Libya has the highest standard of living of any country in Africa...

[truth2power]

Here's a link for DUers who care enough to look behind the curtain and wonder why we REALLY attacked Libya. As usual, our overlords LIED. Quelle surprise!

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ly-libya

Take a look at the stats and then go to the left of the screen and click where you can compare US and Libyan stats. Here's a start:

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Libya/United-States/Health

"Total expenditure on health as % of GDP": Libya - 3.6%. US - 14.6%. And Libyans have universal health care.

And here's another interesting link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz3-OzcExI&feature=youtu.be

Hillary saying, "We came, we saw, and he died. Ha haha." Cute!


I guess the greatest sponsor of state terrorism in the world has put another notch in it's belt.

[inna]

1. well, that is no longer the case, thanks to the "humanitarian intervention".

mission accomplished. :nuke:

[truth2power]

18. Yep. Mission accomplished. Now on to Uganda. Um....

What natural resources do they have that rightly belong to us??

I'm really letting my anger at all this get the best of me today. Guess I should step away from the computer for awhile.

[leveymg]

2. Not now. That alternative non-dependent model of development is almost extinct.

[AngkorWot]

3. That may have been measured before Gaddhafi started massacring civilians.

Maybe you should find out how the Libyans feel about it, rather than looking things up in outdated atlases.

[truth2power]

13. UN Human Development Index-2010. eom

[AngkorWot]

16. Well there you go.

:shrug:

[sabrina 1]

61. That claim has now been disputed. Can you provide proof

of that claim? I am hoping that the UN's calls for investigations now will provide proof, rather than 'claims' by those who had an interest in spreading those rumors. Eg, we now know that the claims of Gadaffi using his air force to bomb civilians was totally false.

I see a lot of these kinds of claims, but so far, I have seen no proof. Soldiers of a sovereign nation, which much as you appear to have forgotten, Libya was and was recognized as such by both the Bush and Obama administrations, have a right to defend themselves against armed insurrectionists. Unless you think this is not the case, then other than deaths on both sides, attributed to such circumstances, where is the proof of the 'massacring of civilians'.

We know, eg, that Karamov of Uzbekistan massacred unarmed civilians. Have you protested our support of this dictator yet? I have been protesting it for several years now. Did you protest the Bush and Obama administrations' support for the Gadaffi regime, say this time last year? I don't recall seeing any such protests here at all.

But back to standards of proof. Now that we know that the 'he's bombing people from the air' claim was false, that kind of puts into question the rest of these claims doesn't it?

[AngkorWot]

63. lol

:crazy:

[sabrina 1]

65. That's what I thought, no that's what I knew so I suppose

it was disingenuous of me to ask for proof I knew you did have. But anyhow, thanks for the confirmation as others may have thought there was such proof.

[AngkorWot]

68. "I suppose it was disingenous of me"

That's you in a nutshell

[sabrina 1]

69. Again, not an iota of substance in your responses.

And with each response, you simply confirm what I already knew, you have zero proof of your claims. So again, thank you for that confirmation.

And since 'the people' are your concern. What do you think of the Obama administration's recent announcement of its renewed support for one of the worst dictators in the world?

[fascisthunter]

83. thank you for being here and keeping it real

[mainer]

4. CIA factbook

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ly.html

Life expectancy at birth: 77.65
Literacy: 82% (male 92%, female 72&)

Compare that to the rest of Africa. Or to much of the Middle East.

[FarCenter]

5. It is petro-state economics; large income from oil sales, lots of rich people among the favored

Average statistics aren't as meaningful in such an economy. You have to know the distribution, e.g. what do the 1% get, the top 5%, etc.

Bill Gates walked into the bar, and on average we were all billionaires.

[mainer]

6. Life expectancy/literacy is a good measure of civilian health.

And Libya's is one of the highest on the continent. At least it WAS, before NATO started bombing.

[pampango]

7. That site shows Libya ranking 139 out of 140 in civil and political liberties.

Labor unions were illegal as were independent political institutions.

Gaddafi seemed, at best, to act as an extremely tough father to his country. "I'll take care of you, but don't give me any guff and don't ask any questions." Gaddafi, at worst, was just another egotistical selfish dictator.

Juan Cole: Top Ten Myths about the Libya War

1. Qaddafi was a progressive in his domestic policies. While back in the 1970s, Qaddafi was probably more generous in sharing around the oil wealth with the population, buying tractors for farmers, etc., in the past couple of decades that policy changed. He became vindictive against tribes in the east and in the southwest that had crossed him politically, depriving them of their fair share in the country’s resources. And in the past decade and a half, extreme corruption and the rise of post-Soviet-style oligarchs, including Qaddafi and his sons, have discouraged investment and blighted the economy. Workers were strictly controlled and unable to collectively bargain for improvements in their conditions. There was much more poverty and poor infrastructure in Libya than there should have been in an oil state.

http://www.juancole.com/2011/08/top-ten-myths-about-the-libya-war.html

[mainer]

8. But free of starvation.

And with health care and free education. Much like Cuba.

I bet Somalia ranks pretty high on "freedom from government" index.

[pampango]

31. Benevolent dictators have a certain attraction (assuming they stay 'benevolent' of course).

Somalia is actually #124 out of 140 in the rankings of civil and political liberty.

Benevolent dictators who provide people with freedom from hunger and universal health care among other good things but at the expense of civil and political liberties represent an interesting contrast to western democracy with constant clash of political views and "controlled", at best, chaos of the political process.

Both alternatives have downsides. Western democracies can be perverted by powerful interests as has happened here or work to benefit their citizens as is the case in Canada, Europe and other places. Benevolent dictators can be good for meeting the needs of citizens, but there's no guarantee that he/she will remain benevolent or that their successor will not be a more typical dictator.

I'm not sure that pinning our hopes for good government to the prospect that the next king will be a "good" one and not a "bad" one is a modern progressive principle

[Posteritatis]

106. If Qadaffi was benevolent I doubt he'd have machinegunned protestors in those first few days. (nt)

[truth2power]

23. Yes, I saw that when I was looking thru the data. I think it was rated "1"...

1 being the lowest. I think that's reprehensible. Just like I think Obama's abrogation of human rights, on a regular basis, is unconscionable.

I was wrong not to include that stat in my OP because someone was bound to imply that I was making Ghaddafi out to be a saint. He wasn't.

But, IMO, the NATO attack had nothing to do with a yearning for "democracy"(sic) on the part of the people of Libya. Ghaddafi royally pissed off western banking/financial interests. So he had to go. Just as Sadaam had to go.


Edit: to clarify antecedent, i.e., "this" to NATO attack.

[randome]

9. So if it's in Africa, it doesn't matter what the Libyans want.

You make it sound like 'that should be good enough for them.'

The Libyans chose to get rid of Ghadaffi. NATO helped them.

Case closed.

[mainer]

11. What? Even CIA data shows Libyans enjoyed a higher standard of living

than anyone around them, either in Africa OR the middle east. They lived longer than those in rich countries such as Kuwait and UAE. Longer than those in the Czech Republic or the British Virgin Islands.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html?countryName=Libya&countryCode=ly®ionCode=afr&rank=58#ly

It's SO much better to have a Somali system where everyone's free and no one lives past 50.

[randome]

19. It's still the Libyan people's system.

And it was their choice to get rid of Ghadaffi. More power to them, I say.

NATO helped them out. I don't see a problem with that.

[mainer]

30. No, it was the choice of rival tribal leaders

So now it's not the "Libyan peoples' system." It's the "Rival tribal leaders" system.

[MattSh]

41. NATO was created to counter the "Soviet threat"

Which was only a threat in the sense that it acted as a counter-balance to out of control capitalism. No Soviet Union and capitalism had free reign to go wild.

The Soviet Union went away, NATO did not. How much money was wasted between 1989 and 2011 to counter a threat that no longer existed? Oh what the hell, make up new threats as you go along. And when they proved to be not large enough, create the War on Islam.

No problem!

[randome]

47. Didn't think anyone said Libya was a threat.

The original definition of NATO may no longer be valid -and I can understand it if you think it should be disbanded- but as of right now, I think the Libyans are grateful it was there.

In general. Not everyone thinks alike. I'm sure there are plenty of Libyans who resent the 'help' (i.e. interference). But for the most part, it seems to be that Libya is celebrating the victory WITH NATO.

[truth2power]

12. The Libyans chose....Of course there couldn't have been any CIA machinations there...

All the unrest was subsequent to the big kerfuffle between Goldman Sachs and Libyan govt. officials, forcing the Goldman people to scuttle out of the country under protection of bodyguards.

Also, Ghaddafi's plans for a pan-African bank, not beholden to western banking interests, has nothing to do with it. No sirree! Pfft!

[randome]

15. I'm sure the CIA controlled the entire country.

There is always SOMETHING going on elsewhere in Libya that you can draw lines to. That doesn't make it some kind of pan-American conspiracy every time.

Sometimes it really is the will of the people. In this case, Libya. The entire Arab Spring movement is inspirational, not conspiratorial.

Be happy that the Mideast is gradually joining the rest of the civilized world.

[truth2power]

20. Sorry the US came to this so late. Ghaddafi was A-OK with us not that long ago. n/t

[bvar22]

29. After examining the history of US Military Interventions...

...in the Middle East over the last 80 years,
that claim CAN logically be made.
The claim that can NOT be supported by HISTORY is that we "intervened" in Libya for "Humanitarian Reasons."

The Military Intervention of NATO PROHIBITS THE inclusion of the events in Libya with Arab Spring.
The Western Disaster capitalists Piggy-backed of the legitimate uprisings of the Arab Spring to annex Libya.

Follow The MONEY.
Freedom Bombs are NOT FREE!

[randome]

40. It was still a civil war.

The Libyans wanted Gaddaffi out, he refused to go, people were dying, NATO helped end it.

Just because some monied conspiracy COULD have been at the root of our intervention does not mean it was.

It sounds like we are getting out of Libya now.

Regardless of what any of us think of capitalistic excesses, Libya will likely be better without Ghaddaffi (or however you spell his name, I can't keep it straight).

[bvar22]

48. "It was still a civil war."

Exactly my point.
The uprisings of the Arab Spring were NOT ongoing Civil Wars,
but spontaneous uprisings.

"The Libyans wanted Gaddaffi out"

NO.
Some Libyans wanted Gaddafi out.
That is the definition of Civil War.

Deals WERE made concerning the delivery of Oil Resources to Western Powers.
You may have noticed that the OIL started flowing TODAY,
even BEFORE a legitimate government representing "The Libyan People" has been elected.
Doesn't THAT cause you even the slightest bit of concern?

WHO made those deals?
and WHO are they speaking for?

Freedom Bombs are NOT Free.

[randome]

52. Spontaneous uprising equals civil war to me.

It's still the will of the people wanting to oust a dictatorial leader and encountering armed resistance to the idea.

Just because we don't know who made oil deals doesn't automatically mean they were made for our benefit. I'm sure some of that oil will go to American companies. Some will not. Libya needs a functioning economy as they go forward. Oil is a big part of their economy so I can see them wanting to keep the spigots flowing.

It shouldn't be our place to say they should do without oil income until they can prove American interests aren't involved.

[bvar22]

55. The opperative word that you chose to ignore was "Ongoing",

as in "Ongoing Civil War".
There is a WORLD of difference between an Ongoing Civil War and a Spontaneous Peoples Uprising.

[PurityOfEssence]

54. Please stop saying that "the Libyans wanted" him out. Some did, but MANY did not.

There were virtually no mercenaries, much as the racists among the Benghazi Islamists shrieked there were. Qaddafi was sustained for 7 months against overwhelming airpower, violations of the arms embargo and massive western power by his own people. This does not jibe with a tiresome Little Bo-Peep statement that "the Libyans" wanted him gone.

Some obviously did, but many DID NOT. It was NOT a simple uprising of everyone against the evil tyrant; many not only didn't want to see him go but put their lives on the line to sustain him, even in the face of massive technological power.

It is a nauseating bit of propaganda that keeps coming from the interventionists that this revolution had clear and overwhelming support. It's simply not the case.

This was and is a civil war.

[joshcryer]

78. Tripoli, a city of 2 million, fell to 2000 armed combatants.

If he had popular support as you claim that would not have happened.

[sabrina 1]

66. So you admit then that this was not the 'Libyan people'

Egypt was a majority of the Egyptian people which is why they did not need NATO. Libya otoh, would still be under Gadaffi because a majority of the people did not rise up against him and the minority who did, needed the world's Superpowers to help them. And now they ARE in a civil war because the majority will never accept this Western Backed minority. Reports now coming in that the Libyan people, even some who did not like Gadaffi, have turned against the 'rebels'.

What a mess we have made there, as we did in Iraq and Afganistan and in Pakistan. But the PNAC gang are happy. They got three countries on their list invaded with more to come unless someone puts a stop to this madness.

[newspeak]

17. well, let's see what happens now

see if they will still be enjoying universal healthcare and see what the global corporate interests have in store for libya now.

[randome]

21. Let's see what the Libyans have in store for Libya.

[themadstork]

67. If only what Libyans have in store for Libya

were at all relevant. They will get the freedom that we permit.

[LanternWaste]

22. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

[truth2power]

24. I didn't claim causation. I said "subsequent to"....

One can make up one's own mind as to how, or if, the two events are related. Apparently you see no connection. And my mileage is permitted to vary.

Peace.

[LanternWaste]

28. I readily understand that there may indeed be a rather large number of connections.

"Apparently you see no connection"
I readily understand that there may indeed be a rather large number of connections. Yet until I can objectively substantiate that premise, proximity becomes irrelevant.

"And my mileage is permitted to vary...."
No implied any differently. :shrug:

[truth2power]

42. I wonder how you would objectively substantiate that the international

banking cabal was behind this? Would someone from Goldman Sachs have to write an OpEd in the Wall Street Journal admitting they dropped the dime on Ghaddafi? That's not ever going to happen, as we both know. Such miscreants don't leave fingerprints and they have the power and the money to shut up and coverup who and whatever.

Inductive reasoning is about recognizing patterns, connecting dots and making inferences based on one's findings and what makes sense. No, it's not absolute certainty, but few things are certain in this world.

There was a time when we (the US) thought Ghaddafi was an ok guy. When was that? Was he imprisoning and torturing his people then? If so, did we speak out? If not, why not? So, all of a sudden we discover he's a monster. What's changed?

As to the "uprising", how do we know who instigated that? When Mossedegh (sp?) nationalized the oil industry in Iran, the popular unrest was fomented by the CIA, as we now know. BP (or whatever they were called) was pissed. We didn't care that Sadaam gassed his own people, until he started talking about not trading oil in dollars. Then Bush the Least blathered about torture and rape rooms and Sadaam was toast.

I think I see a pattern. Follow the money.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[themadstork]

64. But that's the entire point. You never know for sure until it is too late to matter.

And until you know for sure, you assume innocence on the part of actors whose past behavior has proven themselves to be anything but. This has the advantage of allowing you to enjoy the material benefits of cozying up to power while also allaying your inner sense of guilt (because, by gosh, you just didn't know -for sure-).


The standard response to "How could you have allowed Hideous Historical Event X to happen?" is always "We didn't know," because people are very good at coming to not know something that would invoke their duty as citizens of the world.

[truth2power]

70. I couldn't have said it better. Thanks. n/t

[Major Hogwash]

87. Wow, that's the first time I've read that here.

I didn't think anyone else knew about it.

Khaddafi was such a great guy.
Wait, I didn't say "Simon sez" yet.

:rofl:

Those mass graves we found in August, just your everyday normal bidness in the world of dictators.

Swear to gawd some of these peeps would name their babies after Khaddafi if only they could figure out to spell it the right way.

LoL

[Posteritatis]

107. "Foreigners never have any agency, it's all the US' doing," pt. MCLVIII. (nt)

[dameocrat67]

43. Some libyans did

nobody polled them.

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. That's kind of like being the tallest midget

[truth2power]

25. Apparently you didn't click on the link to compare US and Libyan stats. n/t

[Enrique]

14. all that oil money wasted on people living in the country!

hopefully liberated Libya will now follow the Nigeria model. :sarcasm:

[bvar22]

26. Has? ... NO, "HAD" is the proper word.

Libya WILL be turned into a NeoLiberal Free Market HELL
with the Global Banks, The Global Resource extraction Corporations, and the IMF owning every-fucking-thing.

...Just Like Iraq.
Same People,
Same Plan.

Freedom Bombs are NOT "FREE".
Libya WILL pay a horrible price for their "freedom".

” For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MD27Ak01.html

Follow The MONEY,
and read Naomi Klein's Disaster Capitalism.


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[truth2power]

27. Thank you, bvar. You are one of the people on this board who, I think, "gets it". n/t

[leftstreet]

39. +1

[malaise]

32. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Keep truth from people - do not rock the boat

[Faithful One]

33. Ugh. Gaddafi apologists are coming out in full force today.

You know, the fact that he and his sons and friends lived high off the hog while most Libyans were struggling to survive in an economy run by the elite.

Or his mass rape of his Amazon Guard(as reported by some of the guardswomen themselves).

Or his threat to "destroy" Benghazi and kill everyone living there.

Conscription. Murder. Rape. Deporation. Despotism. Terror.

Gaddafi was scum of the first degree. He's in hell with Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot and Mao right now.

[mainer]

35. Libya executions vs US executions

Per capita, the US imprisons more people than Libya did.


Executions: Libya ranked 11th. USA ranked 5th (four times more than Libya)
Prisoners, per capita: Libya ranked 47th. US ranked 1st. (3x more than Libya)

It's beginning to look like the US is the king of imprisoning its own populace.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Libya/United-States/Crime

[Faithful One]

36. Those are -reported- statistics.

You REALLY think that Gaddafi was going to report on the innocents he threw in his secret prisons or gunned down for daring to oppose him?

[EFerrari]

46. The US has over 7 million people under correctional supervision,

that's a million more than the entire population of Libya. About a third of those are in custody.

[truth2power]

44. Put down the strawman. No one's apologizing for Ghaddafi...

It's a fact that Libyans have universal health care and many other social safety nets that our own government is busy depriving our own citizens of, as we speak.

It's a fact that US govt. officials thought Ghaddafi was OK in the past. Maybe you should ask someone in the govt. why they were apologizing for Ghaddafi awhile back and now they're not.

What's changed?? Does it have anything to do with money?

[CanSocDem]

56. I remember a TIME magazine cover in the early 80's...

...with a picture of Khadaffi and the bold headline The most dangerous man in the world?

He was well on his way to forming a huge coalition of oil producing Arab nations. For some people that's almost too scary to even think about.

.

[truth2power]

59. Hmmm...There's dangerous and then there's DANGEROUS. n/t

[EFerrari]

45. LOL

"Conscription. Murder. Rape. Deporation. Despotism. Terror" describes the glorious rebels to a t.

[bvar22]

50. "Gaddafi apologists are coming out in full force today."

....Only in the binary world of Middle Childhood.

Opposing US Military Involvement in a Libyan Civil War does NOT equal support for Gaddafi.




If you're not FOR the New WAR in Libya,
you're WITH The Communists AlQaeda The Terrorists Saddam Qaddafi!!!

[geek tragedy]

72. This thread is an endorsement of Gaddafi's regime.

Funny how actual Libyans disagree with American Communists on the merits of keeping a dictator.

And, yeah, I went there. Leftists who support dictators are nothing but unrehabilitated USSR groupies.

[ellisonz]

93. Oh snap.

:popcorn:

[Skidmore]

105. Or, are actually RW trolls.

[ellisonz]

79. Welcome to DU!

:donut:

[corkhead]

34. there should be a law against having to sit through a commerical that is longer than the clip

[Starry Messenger]

37. Yes, it did.

I hope the wargasm posters will be proud when that standard completely plummets in the next two years.

[Xithras]

38. Qaddafi was a "socialist dictator". People do tend to forget the first part.

Qaddafi didn't, and he was a serious socialist right up to the end. In fact, when the protests first started, he tried to buy the Benghazi protesters off with $4 billion in free new government built housing. This wasn't a one-off thing. Most modern Libyan housing was built by the government at little or no cost to the residents. Lots of other things were free too...healthcare, education through the university level, etc. Major industry was either state owned, or heavily state-regulated with heavy taxation.

Qaddafi's problem is that he wanted to build a socialist utopia, and wanted to empower all of Africa so that it wouldn't be under the thumb of the west, but he couldn't quite bring himself to actually give up his own power and he was brutal to those who opposed him. He saw opposition to HIM as opposition to his socialist ideals, and an attack on the people themselves. His ego inflated to the point where he saw himself as an essential part of Libyan socialism.

If you had to compare him to other leaders in history, Stalin would probably be the closest fit. On one hand he was genuinely concerned about the people and actively ran his country in their interests. On the other hand, he saw ANY opposition to the state as an attack on the people themselves, and had no problem brutally repressing that opposition.

[geek tragedy]

75. Yes, his problem was that he cared about people too much. nt

[Posteritatis]

108. People sure do seem to like to forget the second part, too. (nt)

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SidDithers]

53. Ghaddafi was the "FDR of Africa"...

was actually posted here yesterday. :rofl:

Sid

[truth2power]

58. Sometime before we illegally invaded Iraq, I mentioned at work one day

that I'd been in DC the previous weekend protesting the war that we all knew was coming. I think that must have been in January or Februrary of 2003, or maybe earlier. I can't recall. I do remember that I nearly froze to death.

While I was eating lunch a co-worker sat down nearby and she asked me, I don't remember her exact words, but what amounted to why I was supporting Sadaam Hussein. Now, this was said in a very matter of fact way, with no hint of acrimony. I think she really didn't understand that motives for opposing something can be more complex than what appears on the surface.

I tried to explain that it wasn't about Sadaam as much as the moral and legal implications of what the US govt. was doing.

I can see how some people would think that protesting an invasion translates to supporting a dictator. But you know better than that, Sid. Someone made it possible, for whatever reasons, for Libyans to have decent, free health care, enough doctors to meet the people's needs, educational opportunities etc. Ghaddafi probably managed that, since he seemed to have an iron hand on most everything. Doesn't mean he was a wonderful person. Please see Xithras' post, above, for a plausible explanation of that.

[PurityOfEssence]

60. It's a binary world; get used to it.

My personal opposition to the Libyan foray was that it was a violation of national sovereignty, illegal by US law--even moreso than the Iraq invasion, by the way--and just reeking of corporatist bullshit to get rid of someone who wasn't being a compliant resource provider.

Those who see any dissent as a personal attack or an assault on Barack Obama are in a very odd position, since they're advocating violent, murderous warfare and destabilization in the name of some kind of self-reverential morality.

It's a topsy-turvy world of late, is it not?

[geek tragedy]

73. So, you agree that he was like FDR.

Too bad we got stuck with Obama instead of him, huh?

[truth2power]

96. That's an absurd statement. Try again. n/t

[TBF]

57. K&R - it's all about the oil. Wonder which country will be "freed" next. nt

[truth2power]

62. I ws incorrect in saying that Libya has the highest standard of living

of ANY country in Africa. I believe Algeria, Tunisia and Botswana fall into that category also.

[geek tragedy]

71. Good thing the Gaddafi fan club is irrelevant in

the US. They are not progressives, or allies of progressives.

[apocalypsehow]

80. Very true. n/t.

[bvar22]

97. It is unfortunate that...

...the Fan Club for the Big Banks, the Global Resource Extraction Corporations, the IMF, and the Armaments Industry is so blind.

OWS and myself are working to make them irrelevant.



Only in the Binary World of Middle Childhood can the opposition to the US Military Involvement in the Middle East be equated to support for Gaddafi.



If you're not FOR the New WAR in Libya,
you're WITH The Communists AlQaeda The Terrorists Saddam Qaddafi!!!
YeeHAW! Bring 'Em On!!!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

74. I'm reminded of Iraq, where, after the invasion, Laura Bush talked about how

girls were going to school now.

Well, most Americans suck at geography and general knowledge of the outside world, so they didn't know that Iraq was not Afghanistan, and that women and girls had more freedoms there than in most countries in the region, including going to school.

Now that the Shiites have taken over, they have fewer freedoms.

The longer I live, the more I have come to believe that the U.S. and Britain and other Western countries are incapable of intervening in the Third World without screwing it up, either deliberately or accidentally.

[xchrom]

77. 1 of those 'pragmatist' created realities.

Liberals create 'realities' just as surely as neo-cons do.

A bitter truth.

[Mudoria]

76. The Moammar Fan Club is out in force today...

he may have been a dictator for 40 years but he was an alright kind of guy! :rofl:

[fascisthunter]

82. lol... I don't think this poster is a fan... just pointing out a fact

it'll be alright

[fascisthunter]

81. I just Heard a Hundred Heads Pop!

maybe double...

[killbotfactory]

84. That's why Libyans rebelled against him in the first place

That's why they protested in the street, knowing full well Gaddafi's stance on such protests.

They were tired of living the good life.

That and the hallucinogenic nescafe they were all drinking.

Also Al Qaeda.

[joshcryer]

88. Yep, 600 unarmed protestersdied in the first few days, all because they loved their living standard.

[killbotfactory]

90. The foolish fools didn't know how good they have it.

I bet they're sorry now.

[ellisonz]

100. +217

[renegade000]

85. oh ok

We must let all the OWS protesters know since our country enjoys a high standing of living, nothing is wrong with our political system. They can stop wasting their time...

[Divine Discontent]

86. we came, we saw, & he died ha haha" - that sounds like something Bush would have said. I had always

given high praise to SOS Clinton, maybe I should reconsider, because that's morbidly wicked sounding. I don't think murdering a bad guy (if that's what people think should happen to bad bad men) should result in our SOS laughing about him being killed. We sound like a warmongering country when one of our leaders does that... oh, wait....

[Major Hogwash]

89. Khaddafi is in hell tonight . .

Telling Nixon and Hitler where he thinks he went wrong.

:rofl:

[Mimosa]

92. How dare you presume who is in hell.

Go ahead.

Now, please provide -going back before 2008- some proof to your allegation that Khaddafi was a mass murderer.

[ellisonz]

94. Done.

Alliances with other authoritarian national leaders
See also: Idi Amin and Uganda-Tanzania War

Gaddafi had a close relationship with Idi Amin, whom he sponsored and gave some of the key ideas, such as expulsions of Indian-Ugandans.<124> When Amin's government began to crumble, Gaddafi sent troops to fight against Tanzania on behalf of Amin and 600 Libyan soldiers lost their lives.<125> Gaddafi also financed Mengistu Haile Mariam's military junta in Ethiopia, which was later convicted of one of the deadliest genocides in modern history.<126>

Gaddafi ran a school near Benghazi called the World Revolutionary Center (WRC). A notable number of its graduates have seized power in African countries.<127> Blaise Compaoré of Burkina Faso and Idriss Déby of Chad were graduates of this school, and are currently in power in their respective countries.<128> Gaddafi trained and supported Charles Taylor of Liberia, Foday Sankoh, the founder of Revolutionary United Front, and Jean-Bédel Bokassa, the Emperor of the Central African Empire.<125><126>
Jakaya Kikwete, the president of Tanzania, embraces Gaddafi during the African Union Summit in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, 2 Feb. 2009.

In Europe, Gaddafi had close ties with Slobodan Milošević and Jörg Haider. According to the Daily Mail, Jörg Haider received tens of millions of dollars from both Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein.<129> Gaddafi also aligned himself with the Orthodox Serbs against Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo, supporting Milošević even when he was charged with large-scale ethnic cleansing against Albanians in Kosovo.<130><131><132>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi#Alliances_with_other_authoritarian_national_leaders

[bvar22]

98. Gaddafi was indeed a meglomaniac and a dictator, BUT...

..he also believed in a Unified Africa (Pan Africa),
and worked HARD to achieve a United Africa.
He was the chief financier for African Unity Movement,
and believed that African Resources were FOR the African people
and NOT for plundering by Western Corporations.

He was successful at preventing the IMF and Western Banks from peddling their Predatory Loans to Sub-Saharan countries by using Oil Profits to undercut them.
THAT is an indisputable FACT.
The IMF & Global Banks wanted him OUT of their way.

[ellisonz]

99. When you change the subject - you reveal how thin the defense of this rat-dog has been...

"IMF and Western Banks from peddling their Predatory Loans to Sub-Saharan countries by using Oil Profits to undercut them" - just about any objective observer would say he failed miserably in that task and sought to buy the support of African leaders on the bloody piles of corpses of their enemies. Good for Africa - bollocks.

I'm sorry, but I don't make excuses for mass murderers.

"African Resources were FOR the African people" - That $200 Billion in liquid assets - he still had until the other day demonstrates that falsehood aptly...

:silly:

[bvar22]

101. "I don't make excuses for mass murderers."

Yes you do.
You have unquestioningly accepted the same excuse for the bombings and killing of Libyans
offered by the very same people who made the very same excuse for the bombings and killings in Iraq.


Saddam Gaddafi was an evil dictator who killed his own people!!!
If you're not FOR the New WAR in Libya,
you're WITH The Communists AlQaeda The Terrorists Saddam Qaddafi!!!
USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!
We only drop Humanitarian Bombs!

So sad, and so much blood on our hands.
If you had a working knowledge of the history of US Military Interventions
in the Middle East over the last 70 years, you would understand.

[ellisonz]

103. Whatever.

[Posteritatis]

109. Conveniently omitting the fact that he wanted to be king of said united Africa. (nt)

[Mimosa]

91. Khaddafi was most like Chavez , maybe Castro

The USA and the NWO will not tolerate socialist governments in developing nations.

If US citizens saw socialist programs working successfully there we might really wonder why we can't have socialised medicine, good schools, not to mention free water and electricity.

[AmirDal]

95. Gathafi socialism was a bit crazy with no structures. People who want structure hated it

[Rex]

102. Yeah and before Saddam was thrown out of office, Iraq was a

very secular nation. One that Ronald & Donald were proud of. Back when we loved the dictator. Back when OBL was working for the CIA.

Funny how things turn out.

[malaise]

104. Just laugh then

because I've seen posts saying he starved his people.
The truth appears to be an offense.

[DCBob]

110. Oil wealth.

Even a corrupt evil despot knows he can buy loyalty... and I sure the amount was minuscule compared to the wealth he amassed for himself and his family.