Ritualized child abuse: circumcision

[cleanhippie]

Want to spend an hour cringing and twitching? This is the abridged version of “Cut: Slicing Through the Myths of Circumcision“, and you will suffer if you watch it. It is a wasteful, terrible thing to do to a child.

One rabbi interviewed is at least honest about circumcision: “It’s painful, it’s abusive, it’s traumatic, and if anybody does it who isn’t in a covenant ought to be put in prison…I do abusive things because I’m in covenant with god.” What nonsense. What a wretched excuse for abusing children.

(some of the "reasoning" for this barbaric practice at the link)

--snip--

There is no reason, other than certain rare and specific medical conditions, for maiming anyone’s genitalia. Don’t do it to your children.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/10/19/ritualized-child-abuse-circumcision/

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The last line needs repeating: There is no reason, other than certain rare and specific medical conditions, for maiming anyone’s genitalia. Don’t do it to your children.

[Rene Descartes]

1. Regrettably...

you are serious.

[cleanhippie]

2. Regrettably...

you are too.

[Rene Descartes]

27. Indeed, I am very serious when it comes to minding my own damn business.

You should give it a try...

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[Exultant Democracy]

102. If everyone minded their own business they wouldn't be mutilating other peoples penises

You should give it a try...

[Shagbark Hickory]

126. I'm not touching this with a 10 foot circumsized pole

[MNBrewer]

3. Ritual mutilation of baby boys = good

Ritual mutilation of baby girls = bad

Right?

:eyes:

[Rene Descartes]

26. Mutilation...? The subject of the OP is circumcision--not castration.

And it is none of my damn business--or yours.

[comtec]

144. ok I have to call BS on this one....

whats done to girls prevents them from EVER enjoying sex... E V E R!
THEIR G/D CLIT IS CUT OFF!

that's a HELL of a lot different than slicing off one's foreskin.
Arguably circumcision reduced STD transmission, increases pleasure, and is aesthetically pleasing.

I wouldn't know, i'm still all original parts

but the two are NOT comparable, even a little bit.

[redqueen]

145. Ritual nicks on the clitoral hood are banned in the US.

There are different forms of female circumcision, and this very common one does far less damage than removal of the foreskin. It, however, is banned.

[comtec]

147. I read about that down thread, still seems unpleasant

The hood is such a small target on a full grown woman (ok my ex's anyway)
I can't imagine how those nicks could be done and not risk hitting the clit occasionally.
but yeah, in that case vs circumcision I guess it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
still makes me cringe tho.

[redqueen]

148. Either the ritual nick on the clitoral hood must be allowed

or circumcision on infant boys has to be banned.

Equal protection clause.

[comtec]

150. Mind you as an intact male, i'm all for banning circumcision

but you're right.
IMHO if the ritual nick does no (worse) damage to the clit as circumcision does to the penis head, then it should be allowed.

Still both seem like unnecessary risks to take with a small child let alone a newborn.

"They just finished forming and now you want to deform them?!" (not YOU, just a generic "you" )

you'd think bible thumpers would be out in front "We are BORN perfect in god/dess' vision!
why ruin it?

[redqueen]

151. Right on.

Nice to be able to agree on something. :hi:

[comtec]

152. yays!!! =]

I'm sure we agree on many topics.
most likely it's terminology and our own outlook that makes us both think otherwise.
:hi:

[Rowdyboy]

49. Delete...responded to wrong post

[Deep13]

4. Agreed. As bad as it is, though, ...

...FGM is so much worse. WTF is wrong with people? :-(

[Crunchy Frog]

86. Except for the forms of female genital cutting that are far less severe.

An example here. http://aandes.blogspot.com/2010/04/circumcision.html

[Deep13]

90. That's still pretty monsterous.

She will be sexually disabled as an adult.

Really, I'm sorry I looked at that. I feel sick.

[Crunchy Frog]

95. I'd alot rather be a girl and go through that

than be a boy and go through a typical American circumcision. The amount of tissue removed was almost microscopic, and consisted of a tiny bit of clitoral hood (the part on girls that is homologous to the foreskin). If you want to look at some things that ought to make you feel sick, I can give you a bunch of links.

And I am a girl BTW.

[Deep13]

109. Having survived the procedure, I don't believe I am disabled in any way.

I'm not defending it. None of them should have to go through it ever. It is only because of the absolute stupidity of religious custom that it is done at all. The link doesn't speak to the hood, but to the main sensory organ itself. That's my recollection. I'm not watching it again. If so, it is a permanent disability and is intended to be so.

Monstrous.

[Crunchy Frog]

114. The vast majority of Indonesian and Malaysian women

who've undergone this procedure don't feel that they've been disabled in any way either. You can actually find message boards where they post quite openly about their sexual experiences and sensations. There's no taboo against female sexual pleasure in those societies.

The practice in those cultures is generally limited to the clitoral hood. If you look at the pictures, the actual tissue removed is almost microscopic; an almost invisible fleck on a cottonball.

If you want so see something truly gruesome, I can post some video or pictorial links to the procedure you endured as an infant and you can compare.

[Deep13]

128. No thanks.

:puke:

[bayareamike]

5. Circumcision has many established benefits for males

I say this as a circumcision "survivor".

[cleanhippie]

6. Benefits? Like what?

And are these "benefits" applicable for ALL males, or just certain, rare circumstances?

Please elaborate.

[David Sky]

13. You were luckier than some small but important infant group...

"THYMOS: Journal of Boyhood Studies, Vol. 4, No. 1, Spring 2010, 78-90
LOST BOYS: AN ESTIMATE OF U.S. CIRCUMCISION-RELATED INFANT DEATHS
- Dan Bollinger
Abstract: Baby boys can and do succumb as a result of having their foreskin removed. Circumcision-related mortality rates are not known with certainty; this study estimates the scale of this problem. This study finds that approximately 117 neonatal circumcision-related deaths (9.01/100,000) occur annually in the United States, about 1.3% of male neonatal deaths from all causes. Because infant circumcision is elective, all of these deaths are avoidable. This study also identifies reasons why accurate data on these deaths are not available, some of the obstacles to preventing these deaths, and some solutions to overcome them."

http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html

[handmade34]

7. I saw no need to circumcise my boys

when they were born... figured if they wanted to have it done later in life; their choice. So far they haven't chosen that option

[cleanhippie]

10. [phone]

[etherealtruth]

74. Nor did I

All it took was a "maternal infant health" rotation in nursing school and the knowledge that circumcision doesn't provide any benefit over soap and water.

[Devil_Fish]

87. Thankyou for giving your children the choice I didn't have.

If I ever have a baby boy I will do the same.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

8. All those circumcized males, deprived of their sexual identities just like FGM survivors

Except they aren't.

[cleanhippie]

9. I think you are missing the point.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

20. Apparently "mutilation" is the issue

div class="excerpt"]mu·ti·late verb \ˈmyü-tə-ˌlāt\
mu·ti·lat·edmu·ti·lat·ing

Definition of MUTILATE
transitive verb
1: to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect <the child mutilated the book with his scissors>
2: to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of : cripple

[cleanhippie]

25. "Men who are circumcized suffer no ill effects. " - I see that you are missing the point.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

29. The point is false equivocation and scaremongering

There is no mutilation involved but circumcision is being mischaracterized as mutilation.

It is not the same as deliberate acts to mutiliate females to deprive them of sex.

So the only thing I can see is the complaint of ritualization.

OK. So you don't like Jewish tradition. So, don't be Jewish. But some people DO want to be Jewish (I hear the buffets are awesome) and since THEY ARE NOT HURTING ANYONE I don't see why they are getting such a bad rap as to be slandered with baseless and wild exaggerations that they are mutilating their sons.

I'm sorry other people's rituals upset you so much. In some societies children undergo ritual scarification and/or tattoos when they're old enough to comprehend fear and pain and remember every little detaail. Oddly, many people tend to romanticize such things. How come Samoans don't catch flak for their rite of passage (read: not of age of majority) with what is deliberately supposed to be an extremely painful tattooing process?

[cleanhippie]

30. Do you have a penis?

I do, and mine was mutilated (to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect) when I was an infant, as were (and are) MILLIONS of other men.

While the reasoning for MGM and FGM are very different, the genital mutilation is the same. They are both barbaric, unnecessary procedures.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

32. I don't have one of my own but I'm a frequent user of the product and, yes, it is the modified vers.

Sorry you're mourning for your lost foreskin but it seems your take on this is rather peculiar.

Is it painful for you to have sex? If so that puts you in the extreme minority of men that underwent circumcision and if so it was botched. FGM, on the other hand, is intended to deprive women of their sexual identities when done correctly.

So where to you -- pardon the pun -- get-off comparing a procedure that has no ill effects for males to a procedure that is meant to be painful for females...forever.

[cleanhippie]

33. Again with the "no ill effects" comments.

I think we will just need to agree to disagree here. I am against all child genital mutilation, in all of its forms, and you are against it only for girls.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

36. Please define a set of symptoms and dysfunction associated with male circumcision

From your own telling it seems your complaint is largely cosmetic and/or anti-religious. It looks to me as if you can point to no real, tangible suffering or dysfunction.

Unless sexual intercourse is so painful as to leave your crying and/or screaming in pain you do a disservice to the victims of FGM who are savaged for that express purpose.

[Name removed]

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[cleanhippie]

63. It occurs to me that perhaps you did not read the article?

Did you read this part?

As one of the speakers in the movie explains, there have been progressive excuses: from it prevents masturbation to it prevents cancer to it prevents AIDS. The benefits all vanish with further studies and are all promoted by pro-circumcision organizations. It doesn’t even make sense: let’s not pretend people have been hacking at penises for millennia because there was a clinical study. Hey, let’s chop off our pinkie toes and then go looking for medical correlations!

And I really am unsure at just what it is you are arguing FOR here?

[Devil_Fish]

88. I havn't had sex in two years. Just not interested. Might be if I had the extra nerve endings.

When I was younger, and had sex, I prefered Anal. Felt more pleasurable. Perhaps if I had the extra nerve endings I would have enjoyed Vaginal more. If I were a conservative I might claim that circumcision made me gay.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Dorian Gray]

42. I am truly sorry that you

feel you were mutilated. While we can't and shouldn't ignore those feelings, there are many men who were circumcized who do not feel as you do. My husband, for one, is happy he was, and his genitals are beautiful, just as he is.

It is a decision that is best left to the parents. It's not solely a religious choice. While I respect that it isn't a medical necessity, if people choose to do it for the minimal health reasons or religious reasons that they cite, I won't blame them.

[kysrsoze]

110. As a male "victim," I agree with you. I could give a durn. I don't feel I've lost anything

I REALLY don't think I've missed out on anything sexually. If any dude feels that's the case, I think there's a lot more going on than mere circumcision effects. And for those who do feel they're somehow missing out, there are techniques out there to "re-grow" it. Knock yourselves out.

Now, female circumcision "generally" is an entirely different story, as its aim is normally done by backward, controlling, sadistic males, to completely eliminate a woman's ability to derive sexual pleasure. That is horrific and inexcusable, and I've yet to hear any dissenting opinion from a circumcised female.

[mentalsolstice]

78. I feel sorry that you feel that way.

My husband and all of the men I have "known" had not a whit of regret over it. My husband doesn't feel mutilated at all, certainly not in the way I would if my clitoris was removed and my labia sewn together.

[Chan790]

117. By the definitions you posted..

#1 applies. So yes, the use of "mutilation" is appropriate. Also the very purpose of circumcision in early Judeo-Christian faiths was desensitization to discourage promiscuity. Yes, really. Not cleanliness or health benefits. Deprivation or lessening of sexual pleasure.

[Deep13]

59. Agree that FGM is much worse. ...

But that doesn't mean male circumcision is good.

In this country, there are relatively few FGM victims while male circumcision is routine.

Of course if a culture mutilated the genitals of just blacks rather than just girls, FGM would be seen as a crime against humanity.

[hlthe2b]

11. I can understand those vehemently opposed to circumcision...

But, if you want to end it, declaring it "ritualized child abuse" is certainly not the way. How many hundreds of million parents in this country and elsewhere in the West, did so because they were advised to do so for health reasons--independent of religion-- (and which, btw, continues to have merit in HIV-devastated Africa)? Does anyone really think the way to turn around the practice is to direct vehement scorn at these parents, accusing them of ritualized child abuse? You may think you can separate the religious practice from that done in hospitals, but such rhetoric will not be confined.

Just sayin.... Education of providers is the first line of recourse. Concommitant education of parents... If the medical profession truly embraces a movement from circumcision, it is inevitable that the controversy and critical debate will spread to the Jewish (and other religious) communities.

[cleanhippie]

12. You make valid points.

But condoms are still a better alternative, as is education, than circumcision.

Is the best way to deal with homophobia (a product of ignorance and tradition) scorn of those who practice it, or something less direct?


Is the best way to deal with racism (a product of ignorance and tradition) scorn of those who practice it, or something less direct?

Is the best way to deal with unnecessary circumcision (a product of ignorance and tradition) scorn of those who practice it, or something less direct?

While I share your sentiment, some topics require DIRECT action, and I feel that this is one of them.

[hlthe2b]

14. Advances in GLBT acceptance did not come from

the bludgeon approach--nor did race or sexual orientation-based civil rights. In each of those examples, attitudes had to change and acceptance of that need for change before the laws could be passed and enacted. Educating, informing, and removing societal condemnation--led by an ever increasing group of "free thinkers" capable of leading by example. That works.

You stand a very strong risk of demeaning, deriding, and ultimately turning away the countless numbers of individuals you need to carry the message.

[cleanhippie]

15. Not ALL advances came from that approach.

But many did.

We are in agreement here. Yes, a softer approach is needed, but in some cases the hard sell is what is required. As with so many things in life, balance is the key.

[hlthe2b]

16. You don't seem to grasp...

that at this time the overwhelming majority of the parental (and grandparental) cohort were influenced by the medical standards of the time--one which overwhelmingly advocated circumcision. While the medical standards and recommendations are changing, it has not achieved the universality that you seem to believe. And certainly, how many of these hundreds of millions of parents in the US, in the Western Hemisphere--in Europe (and elsewhere) are receptive to being told that they engaged in --or at least consented to--ritual child abuse of their children.

Can you not understand why that will backfire?

[cleanhippie]

18. I do grasp that.

Perhaps you are not grasping that the "medical standards at the time" were borne out of religious ignorance, and continue to be...


I AGREE with you, though! Please remember that. Education is the key, i hope we see eye to eye on that. But when education fails and ignorance and "tradition" perpetuate the practice (as it often does in so many other areas), a harder approach is needed. We can agree to disagree on that part if you want.

[hlthe2b]

23. No... the medical standards of the time were science based...

Medicine is not driven by religion. Medical standards change with new scientific information that counters or expands on the previous, but it is certainly NOT driven by religion or religious ignorance. That is absolutely ridiculous.

I understand you have deep seated issues with religion. I'm agnostic as you know and don't judge either way. But, I DO know a great deal about medicine and the history of medicine and medical practices. While I certainly can not justify or defend every standard ever adopted in western medicine, to suggest religion drives western medical standards leaves me incredulous. :shrug:

[cleanhippie]

24. Do you not see that as medicine moved into an actual science...

that religion played a big part about what was "acceptable" and what was not?

We see religion driving ALL KINDS of scientific areas: climate change, evolution, birth control, stem-cell testing....the list goes on and on and on.

Maybe "driving" is the wrong word, perhaps "impeding" is better. But to say that religion does not have an influence on scientific progress is, IMO, an ignorant view.

[hlthe2b]

31. You are discussing societal influences on medical policy, not medical science.

[cleanhippie]

34. In the context of our conversation, isn't that just splitting hairs?

[hlthe2b]

40. Science drives medical standards. Politics and many other influences...

including that of religion, can drive medical policy. No, it is in no way the same. Medical standards are often at odds with medical policy. Abortion policy being one very good example.

[Name removed]

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[subterranean]

21. Not too many in Europe.

Outside of England (which abandoned it decades ago) and the Jewish population, circumcision has never been a common practice in Europe.

[Name removed]

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[Spider Jerusalem]

66. Circumcision is still *somewhat* common in the UK.

It's not performed by the NHS; it is however by private physicians. Being circumcised is something of a class marker in Britain; members of the middle and upper classes are more likely to be circumcised (because more likely to have been born in a private hospital and not NHS, or to have had a physician and not a midwife attending the birth).

[Crunchy Frog]

118. Europe is a backward, third world region with a primitive healthcare system.

The people there are filthy and smelly, and suffer from general ill health. They don't enjoy the advanced scientific medicine that we do in the U.S.A.

[Name removed]

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[hlthe2b]

45. I don't respond to personal attacks.

especially those who totally misrepresent what I have written.

[Name removed]

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[tigereye]

160. I have to say as a parent who made that choice for their

child, I didn't have much time to really think about it- it was not my main concern at the time of my pregnancy and I was basically told that this is what everyone did. All of the men I know have been circumcised so I accepted it mostly as typical practice. Usually what tends to upset me during arguments of this type, is all the hyperbole about it being child abuse. As someone who has worked with many children and adults who were victims of child abuse, I feel that this comparison is over the top. As you say, education is key to change people's attitudes about the "necessity" of the practice, not castigation.

[Chan790]

119. I'd dispute your core premise.

It's analogous to the argument over who achieved more: Malcolm X or MLK Jr.

King gets the praise because he's more mainstream-society acceptable...you'd be hard-pressed to argue that he achieved more than the militarists like Malcolm X or the Black Panthers. Every movement needs its' vociferous partisans that reject conciliation; that say "Fuck no, I want no part of integration by half-measures on their schedule. We need equality and justice, not 'understanding'."

[tigereye]

159. I like your reasoning :)

[Silent3]

17. Definitely don't circumcise a baby while publicly breast feeding at Olive Garden...

...like Hitler would.

[cleanhippie]

19. Oh, well, of course!

:rofl:

[laconicsax]

81. No...Hitler would have his pit bulls do it.

[subterranean]

22. I agree with you, hippie!

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

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[laconicsax]

47. One thing that most people don't understand is that the foreskin is FUSED to the glans in infants.

What does fused mean? Well your fingernails are fused to your fingers. The foreskin has to be TORN away from the glans before it can be cut off. Comparing the pain of adult circumcision to infant circumcision is comparing apples to oranges.

To those who think it's no big deal, try this:

Carefully pull back a fingernail until the entire thing can be cut away leaving the nail bed exposed. That's an equivalent procedure.

Oh, don't worry...the nail should grow back.

[Fumesucker]

50. Isn't it interesting how "normal" people's instincts are to protect and shield an infant from pain?

Except in certain culturally approved instances?

[tigereye]

161. I think this practice is upsetting if you really think about

it. However, for many years, people did not, they simply took it for granted...

[Name removed]

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[Ignis]

99. Thank you for mentioning that oft-overlooked point.

:thumbsup:

[redqueen]

132. It's so very sad that so few parents look into these things before deciding. (nt)

[Name removed]

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[Rowdyboy]

51. Had to have one for medical reasons at age 55 and I regret it very much

There is no comparison. I feel horribly sorry for those who were "cut" as infants. At least I know what I'm missing out on.

[Name removed]

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[Devil_Fish]

96. I was cut as an infant. Thank you for confirming my suspicion that I have been missing out. NT

[Ignis]

100. Please return to every DU circ thread and tell your story.

So often, the claim is made that it's a trivial, cosmetic procedure--akin to having one's ear pierced.

:eyes:

[Rowdyboy]

108. I compare it to the difference in black and white movies and those filmed in color....

Intensity is vastly diminished. But men don't want to hear that they're missing an experience they can never have-its too depressing.

[Confusious]

121. You do know that the human body can adapt to change

The brain can reroute after damage, nerves can rewire after injury. Losing sight means taste, smell and hearing become more acute, as an example.

We're not as frail as some think we are.

As far as having a little skin cut off when I was a baby, If I had any more feeling, the SO's in my life would have been pissed because I finished to fast.

I think things are fine as they are. I never really thought about it until the past few years, and now only when one of these threads pops up because someone is missing something in their life, and they think a foreskin will fix it.

[Rowdyboy]

123. Absolutely correct. In the first year after surgery I was angry and bitter....

However the brain and nerves did their work well. Sex is wonderful again, but there is still a tangible difference in sensation which I'll always miss. I'd love to talk to any parent who was considering circumcision for an baby boy and offer my perspective because I've been on both sides.

Having a supportive SO makes all the difference in the world.

[Ignis]

155. You do know that you're trivializing that DUer's pain, right?

He certainly doesn't see it as merely "having a little skin cut off," but thanks for setting him straight.

:eyes:

[Confusious]

165. Sorry, I'm missing the same little piece of skin

So, basically I have the same problem. Difference is, I don't really think there is any problem with it. The other fellow should look a little deeper to see what the problem is, some professional help might be in order.

Just some helpful advice.

P.S. Sometimes sympathy is good, sometimes telling people to suck it up and deal is good, sometimes telling people to get some help is good.

This is a get some help moment. Anything else is a disservice.

[redqueen]

133. Depressing for them...

but what if they have sons? What about those that are still not being given a choice? Aren't they worth speaking up for?

[Rowdyboy]

149. Certainly....I would love an opportunity to talk to anyone considering the surgery

for a child. If there isn't a real necessity for a medical procedure then parents should let the child decide for himself when he comes of age. It can always be done if he chooses but it can't be undone when the parents decide.

I'm very glad my grandmother persuaded my mom not to have it done (I have no idea why, just know that was the story I was told).

[Warren DeMontague]

52. Sorry, we're not done with porn yet.

Get in line.

[cleanhippie]

61. +1!!

[likesmountains 52]

92. What about de- clawing cats? Do you hate kitties?????!!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

157. I think cats should be circumcised, and children declawed.

Better for everyone.

[CTyankee]

124. you forgot natural childbirth! I made my first enemy on DU with one of those threads!

He's gone now. I must have driven him over the edge...:evilgrin:

[tigereye]

162. ha!

:rofl: I haven't been here on DU for quite a while (being a mod during the nastiness of the 2008 primaries was too much), so this is a very amusing reminder of all the fun folks can have! I seem to have missed the Hooters flame wars somehow in my many years here...

[RebelOne]

54. At the time my son was born, circumcision was the norm.

This was in 1962. When he was about 6 weeks old, I took him to the doctor's office for the procedure. The nurse came in with a huge needle, and then made me leave the room. I had to go into the waiting room and I heard my son's screams. I thought they were torturing him. Finally, when the nurse brought him out to me, he was gasping for air like he couldn't breathe. I would never put another child through that.

[Vinca]

55. When I was briefly in nurse's training (didn't like it) in the 1960's,

I saw a baby circumcised and it's something I'll never, ever forget. No anesthesia, strapped to a board, sliced and diced and nonstop screaming and crying. It was horrible. If I had happened to have a male child, I would not have had him circumcised.

[etherealtruth]

85. I graduated from nursing school in 1984

It was still the same. My sons are not circumcised.

[RebelOne]

153. Read my post above. I heard my son's screams. It was awful. n/t

[kctim]

57. It's not that bad

I didn't feel a thing.

[frustrated_lefty]

58. Reduced acquisition of HIV and HPV: circumcision!

Personally, I have a hard time taking anyone seriously when they jump to declaring circumcision to be equivalent to child abuse. As a circumcised male, I was ambivalent about the subject, attributing it to religious preference, etc., until recent years when more research was devoted to the subject.

Growing evidence suggests that circumcision reduces the risk of acquiring HIV and HPV in the affected male. These do not qualify as "certain rare and specific medical conditions," as suggested in the OP. That's not to say that circumcision should be viewed or treated as a prophylactic. It does suggest that there is potential medical benefit associated with the procedure over the course of a lifespan.

If anyone wants to evaluate the current literature for themselves, doing a search at Pubmed using the keywords "circumcision," "viral," and "transmission" pulls up 136 references...small enough to digest if you're really interested in the topic.

[cleanhippie]

68. Some food for thought, then.

There have been a number of exaggerated claims made for the alleged efficacy of male circumcision in preventing female-to-male infection with the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) This statement examines those claims and puts them in proper perspective.
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/info/HIVStatement.html

Randomized Controlled Trial Shows Circumcision Does Not Prevent Male-To-Female HIV Transmission
http://globalhealth.kff.org/Daily-Reports/2009/July/17/GH-071709-HIV-Circumcision.aspx

[frustrated_lefty]

79. Eh, bleh.

I spent the better part of a decade working in one of the top 20 research labs in the world for HIV, between the 90s and the 00s. The goal of my work was to develop a cure for HIV, with nary a glance at circumcision. Circumcision, as I tried to indicate previously, is a subject about which I've been ambivalent. Do you really think someone is going to spend 16-20 hours a day, 7 days a week, trying to find a cure to one of the most unpleasant viruses we've ever known, and they're going to give a monkey's fart about whether or not foreskin is snipped? If evidence suggested that retaining foreskin prevented infection, I'd be in favor of retaining foreskin.

The link you provided frankly sucks, and it's an op-ed piece with no information. It suggest Joe Blow scientist was always in favor of circumcision and he biased his data to promote circumcision. If an author found data suggesting there might be potential benefit to circumcision, the editorial declares him or her to be a "circumcision proponent" or "circumcision enthusiast". Their data suggests a benefit to circumcision, they wanted it all along!

The Pubmed source I referred to is some of the most up to date research available. Look at it and see what you think. What you posted in response is the equivalent of Rush Limbaugh's opinon...those foreskin nabbing scientist just want to steal our foreskin to make a embryonic stem cell generated clone of Al Qaeda!

[cleanhippie]

80. Okey dokey!

[Crunchy Frog]

93. A highly selective reading of the evidence.

If you are at all interested in an alternative scientific assessment of the evidence, you might find this article of interest. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-6405.2011.00761.x/full

[frustrated_lefty]

106. No, that is not highly selective.

Ya know, an alternative to science is NOT science.

[frustrated_lefty]

107. And to re-evaluate

you rely on data which reiterates facts from a differenet perspective?

[Crunchy Frog]

116. Did you actually even read the article?

There is alot of solid scientific data that contradicts the claims being touted about circumcisions alleged disease prevention effects, and there are some major flaws in the the studies that are touted.

I shouldn't have said different perspective. I should have said looking at a wider set of data, and looking at the data with a more skeptical eye.

If you have critiques of the information presented in the article, I would like to see them, rather than just seeing a blanket dismissal.

[cleanhippie]

60. Wow! For the first time ever, a post gets moved FROM R&T to GD!

Maybe there IS such a thing as a miracle!

[HappyMe]

62. Your concern is duly noted.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HappyMe]

71. So, what is it you want from me?

:shrug:

[rug]

73. You wouldn't be doing that so much if you weren't circumcised.

[Zanzoobar]

64. The end-o-my-pecker. 'Tis gone.

I don't know any other condition.

I don't sit there and stare at the end of it, wistfully wondering.

I fuck. It's fun. Meh.

[tabasco]

67. Flamebait. That's all it is.

Why? :shrug:

unrec

[Throd]

69. I'm quite happy with my ritually abused dingus.

[WillyT]

72. LOL !!! - Yeah... This Is More About The Horrified Adults, Than It Is About The Terrorized Children

I do NOT remember it, I had a perfectly happy childhood, I had no issues with self-image, sexuality, no flash-backs, no nightmares...

I DO NOT REMEMBER IT HAPPENING...

Just grew up and thought my penis was normal.

:shrug:

[SomethingFishy]

76. Agreed... Until I saw some of these circumcision threads

I had no idea I was abused. Matter of fact most women I've been with claim to like the snipped version better. Seems they claim that circumcised men have less sensitivity and can last longer. :shrug:

Not an issue I care to get all bent out of shape over.

[kysrsoze]

111. Good post... Willy! Had to say it, but yeah I agree. I don't remember a thing

I put this shit right up there with "everyone wins" baseball games and not using red pens to grade papers. We've got an AWFUL lot more to worry about.

[TK421]

70. well ain't that just fuck-all! and here I thought being in debt was bad enough

and not having enough money to buy food...now I find out that I'm mutilated?

that's it, I think I better get some sleep!

nothing but depressing news anymore at this site, jeez!

[dionysus]

77. me, i laugh my ass off at these threads, as they happen every few months like clockwork.

;)

[marmar]

75. I'm cut and I like it.

nt

[11 Bravo]

82. Yep, time for another "Helmet vs Anteater" thread. You can damned near set your watch by it.

[tammywammy]

89. I thought it was a bit early for a circumcision thread.

:)

[kysrsoze]

113. OMG! I almost pissed my pants reading that. Hilarious!

[Whisp]

83. babies feel pain

why would anyone put their baby through so much horrific pain! it's such knuckledragging stupidity. Do you want your baby to think it's a safe and loving world, or one of pain and fear?
ok ok, maybe the last generation was still deep into the religious voodoo and just carried on the tradition, but jeeze, we have the interwebs, we have a lot of different opinions. We should grow out of some of this crazy fundy shit.


http://www.iraresoul.com/circumcision.html

THIRTY-FOUR REASONS TO CIRCUMCISE YOUR BELOVED NEWBORN BABY BOY

You give your son a gift by hardening him early on to life’s inevitable pain

Circumcised boys never have to face teasing for having a filthy foreskin – and your bleeding, stunned, little infant will thank you for this later

Moses and Jesus lived productive lives without foreskins – what, you think your kid is special?

Nazis hated circumcised penises, therefore circumcision must be a good thing


If God intended males to keep their foreskins He never would have put the idea of circumcision into people’s minds

Mommies secretly like the look of circumcised penises

You’re a pervert for thinking about a boy’s penis so much – for Christ’s sake, just let the good doctor do his job

It is uncomfortable and rude to say “no” to a doctor

The ancient Greeks practiced circumcision, and everyone knows they had the greatest respect for little boys

What, you think that a needy, sniveling, whining, ungrateful, hours-old brat has any right to experience bliss on his first day on earth?

Ritual religious circumcisions are a great chance to bring family together for a grand celebration – and you’re a killjoy for thinking otherwise

Circumcised men are less likely to spread the AIDS virus; but in all fairness, men whose entire penises are removed are even less likely to spread HIV

Traumatized boys are easier to manage; they know who’s boss from the get-go

Don’t stress, everyone knows that circumcised foreskins grow back in time

I can give you a list of a hundred circumcised men who make six-figure incomes, which proves that circumcision is financially beneficial

Adult human penises wreak a lot of damage on this earth, so causing an infant’s penis a little pain is a justified form of preemptive revenge

The Dalai Lama said that we all choose the families into which we are born in order to work through the wrongs of our past lives, therefore baby boys born into pro-circumcision
families are responsible for having chosen this karma for themselves

You give your baby boy something he can obsess about in therapy later in his life

Baby boys love having knife-wielding strangers fondle their genitals

Since girls have to get their ears pierced it’s only fair that boys should get the tips of their penises cut off

Botched circumcisions add variety and spice to life

Uncircumcised penises get very dirty, which requires a lot of extra work for busy moms – which is why I’m all for clipping off babies’ ears and nostrils as well

Nip the problem in the bud: there’s less cutting involved in circumcising a tiny baby boy than there is in circumcising an adult man

Doing unto your sons what your parents did unto you helps maintain continuity between the generations

The ideal would be to circumcise baby boys in the womb – before they’re even alive!

Mere mortal, what right have you to question ancient religious texts that were handed down by God Himself

Genitals are evil; the less of them the better

Michelangelo’s David was circumcised, and he is the greatest work of art ever <1/31/2007: A credible (anonymous) reader who recently traveled to Florence emailed me that “David” is in fact uncircumcised. Therefore, I hereby apologize for having stated that David was “the greatest work of art ever,” as clearly he is not. I am deeply sorry for any harm or trauma I may have unknowingly caused readers. -Daniel Mackler, LCSW-R>

Scientific PROOF: Some (flawed) studies show there to be a slight decrease in urinary tract infections among circumcised male babies (P.S. Be sure to read the commentary at the end of the study!)

Since doctors vow to “do no harm,” circumcision cannot possibly be harmful

It’s not like mutilation of a baby’s genitals is sexual abuse!

He’ll forget it all anyway

It takes a lot of hard work and practice to become a good circumciser, and you want to put a hard-working professional out of business?

This discussion is irrelevant, because everyone knows that babies don’t feel pain


In conclusion, if your mind is still not made up, watch this five-minute video of a routine hospital circumcision. But be forewarned: it's graphic and violent.

[Crunchy Frog]

94. One error in you list. The ancient Greeks abhorrred circumcision.

So much so that many Hellenized Jews stretched their foreskin remnants to try to look intact (Greek public sport events took place in the nude, and an exposed glans was seen as indecent exposure).

The lack of circumcision among the ancient Greeks can be confirmed by any look at ancient Greek art or sculpture depicting the male form.

[Crunchy Frog]

84. I agree with you, and my boys are au naturel,

but this post isn't going to win you any popularity contests here.

[Poll_Blind]

91. Neither my or my girlfriend's children are circumcized. It's an abominable practice.

And that's putting it kindly.

PB

[Atman]

97. I don't remember it being painful.

I don't condone it, but I don't think it's correct to say it is a painful procedure. Sure, maybe it was painful to me. I remember having to wear a sill dress-like outfit to confirmation. I remember the first girl I kissed in second grade. But I don't remember my circumcision. I like the look of my dick. I think uncut cocks are kinda creepy looking. A lot of people get worked up over this subject. Me, not so much. Cut or uncut, a cock is cock...they come in all shapes and sizes.

./

[Bonobo]

98. You share an extreme interest in other people's genitalia with anti-choice people. nt

[redqueen]

137. If anyone forced their daughter to get an abortion, pro-choice people would have a problem with it.

Similarly, when parents force their male children to get circumcisions, people who value the right to bodily integrity find it abhorrent.

[Ignis]

101. For the most part, babies come out perfect.

Why attempt to improve upon perfection? :)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

103. Sex is much better with the uncut. It's far more pleasant.

The foreskin functions to make the man slide around inside his own skin, instead of rubbing the woman's vagina raw.

The prudes just had to do something to make sex feel like you're getting screwed with a non-lubricated broomstick.

i wish nobody was circumcised. I'm an adult woman and the difference in pleasure is amazing.

Unfortunately, the parents of the man I'm with decided to cut it off many decades ago and did not give him a choice in the matter. So he doesn't know what he' missing. I wish he was intact but I cannot do anything about it.

i thought all penises were circumcised until I eventually ran into a couple of men that were uncut and the ease of intercourse was amazing. i think it made them much better lovers.

Circumcision is barbaric and unnecessary and can even be fatal.

[Mariana]

146. Absolutely, it does feel much better.

The foreskin obviously evolved to increase our pleasure, as well as the men's.

[Ignis]

154. "and did not give him a choice in the matter"

That's the absolutely core of the controversy, in my own mind.

Want your children to carry on your religious and/or cultural traditions by irreversibly altering their bodies? Great! Fine! Lovely!

...Once they've reached the age of legal consent and can decide for themselves to do so.

[lynne]

104. Didn't circumcise my son as pediatrician told me he wouldn't do it to his own son -

- so I took him at his word and have never regretted it. Neither has my son who is now a sexually active adult. When I had my daughter my room in the birthing wing was near the room where they did circumcisions so I heard those babies scream when they were circumcised. Heartbreaking! My pediatrician said there was no good medical reason to circumcise a perfectly good penis and I'm glad I listened to him.

[tnlefty]

105. So the rabbi is using his religion as an out for an abuse who

should land people in prison? Get back to me when he voluntarily gives himself up to go to prison for the abuse his religion led him to do.

For the record, I didn't want my sons circ'd and it was an ugly situation in the hospital with all three of my sons, and it had nothing to do with religion, just that Dad wanted it done and I didn't, and it couldn't be done without a fight getting into the time that the insurance wouldn't pay for us to be in the hospital anymore - 48 hours with the younger 2 and he was going to have his way. The first son was 7 weeks pre-term, so that fight lasted for days until my son was good to be released except we were still having this fight. I couldn't wait to get him home after 14 days, so I relented just to get my baby home.

[alittlelark]

112. Another one of these distraction threads....

While the world is blowing up over critical issues???

Why?

[Chan790]

115. Butter and Salt please!?

:popcorn:

[donheld]

120. Damn them all to hell. I have to wait till the very last post to find

:popcorn::toast:

[Obamanaut]

122. self delete

[snooper2]

125. This thread will be the end to it

I'm sure :rofl:

[Dr. Strange]

127. Au contraire, this thread...

is just the tip.

[snooper2]

136. lol

[Taverner]

129. ...

[pipi_k]

130. Some perspective...

I'm not going to post the link here because, quite frankly, it's too disturbing.

But if people want a perspective on ritualized child abuse, all they have to do is look up the case of little Lattie McGee.

Take a look at what happened to him, then think again about calling a procedure taking less than ten minutes "ritualized child abuse".

[Manifestor_of_Light]

134. Strawman!!!!!!! Not applicable.

Oh it is painful as hell but it LASTS LESS THAN TEN MINUTES, so it can't be harmful, right?

Speed is of the essence.


:sarcasm:

[HughBeaumont]

135. Those two "adults" should be thrown in a grinder. And I'm not even kidding.

Vile. Just when you couldn't hate humans more . . .

[HughBeaumont]

131. Ah. Another divide and conquer thread. Because that's what was missing.

Male vs female. Left vs moderate. Mushroom vs turnip bulb. "Be nice to each other" vs "Fighting Builds Character!"

Meanwhile, the United Corporation of America steals your cash any way it can.

We just cannot be happy unless we're ARGUING about something, can we???

[redqueen]

139. You're right.

We should just not discuss anything we disagree on until all the other more important problems are solved first.

Perhaps you have a handy list of the truly important problems. You can put that up so we'll all be on the same page as to what is or is not an acceptable topic for discussion.

[taught_me_patience]

138. It's pretty stupid to try to convice people of your argument

by starting out calling them ritualized child abusers. And then insulting all those who are circumcised by calling them "maimed" is just as dumb.

[cleanhippie]

164. Thank you for your opinion.

[AngryAmish]

140. These threads really bring out the shitheads and losers

[Javaman]

141. Is it the phases of the moon?

it seems this argument pops up from time to time with no reason.

[HughBeaumont]

142. My parents lopping off the skin of my member when I was weeks old . . .

. . . reads about a 0.000000000000000000000000001 on my Things-To-Get-Underwear-in-Bunch-O-Meter.

It does seem like every 4-6 months, like clockwork, that these threads rear their ugly head.

[Javaman]

143. There should be a forum for repetitive posts and recycled outrage.

but sadly, that would leave GD pretty much empty. LOL

[Bucky]

156. It's disgusting the way some people clip their children's toe nails. It's needless mutiliation

Often children, mere infants, are accidently cut and end up bleeding and enduring unimaginable pain when their parents, for purely cosmetic reasons, carve off parts of their own children's bodies. These so-called parents are untrained in this delicate invasive procedure. They think they can just snip off the nails from these Infanto-Americans' toes and thumbs and fingers just because they're their parents and they "own" them. There is NO VALID MEDICAL reason why the nails should be trimmed. It's purely a cultural form of ritualized abuse. If Obama does not crack down on this hideous practice, I will vote for Mitt Romney in protest. And if Mitt Romney wins by one vote, I will move to Canada.

Right fucking now!

[Warren DeMontague]

158. toenail doesnt have nerves in it.

Look, I'm not going to tell anyone ELSE what to do or not to do, but if you have a baby boy and you feel the need to have this procedure done to him, in the interest of full awareness, myt suggestion is that you make sure you're in the room with him when it's done.

Don't be chickenshit and pretend like nothing is happening while you're, say, down the hall at the hospital.

[cleanhippie]

163. Wow, that is a lot of effort you just put into that post.

And all for some snark.


You stay classy.