For death penalty supporters only

[canetoad]

Poll question: For death penalty supporters only

The number of DP supporters on DU has always amazed me. This poll is only for those who support the death penalty. What is your cut-off point? When do you say, 'Enough, this is barbaric'.

Could/would you....

[Upton]

1. ....

[canetoad]

2. I'm aware of the case

How would throwing the switch make you feel better?

[REP]

4. What does keeping them alive accomplish? They can never be trusted in society again.

Is confining them to small cages until they die nicer? Kinder? Does their suffering in prison help anyone?

[canetoad]

6. One question:

Do you think Troy Davis could have been released into society without risk?

[REP]

27. I was not speaking of Troy Davis. See my first post.

[canetoad]

28. Not killing them

Reduces the blood on the collective hands of your state/country.

I personally could never look someone in the eye then effect their death. You speak of vengeance not justice and most of the world, barring the USA and a few religious theocracies have rejected these old ways.

[REP]

32. To whom are you replying? Not me. See my first post on this subject.

[canetoad]

36. I'm replying to you

And your pseudo-humanitarian argument that it is kinder to kill than cage.

[REP]

43. Live on your knees then.

[canetoad]

47. What does that mean?

I don't live on my knees. I live in a country with no DP and universal health care and I know where I'd rather be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Yet it is cheaper not to execute them

as counter intuitive as it sounds.

Now getting away from this thread...

[canetoad]

25. Cost should not be a factor

The general, and by this I mean social and humanitarian, health of society should be the first priority.

Prisons in the US are private, for-profit businesses. When everything is reduced to a dollar amount you have lost your humanity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Alas I include in this public prisons

one reason for the initiative that will try to get rid of it in california is precisely the cost in the public system.

Mind you I agree with you about the dollar amount but the cost is what it is, partly to try to reduce mistakes. in my view as long as mistakes can and do happen the whole system should be questioned. But that is a whole different discussion.

[REP]

29. Cost should not be a factor; I'd rather more money be spent on humane conditions for most inmates

I admit that for some, I do not mind that life imprisonment is harsh and cruel.

[michreject]

60. Not if the appeal process was shortened

I don't see a reason for it to take 25 years for the appeals process to work its way to completion.

[Cid_B]

7. Who says it's about feeling better?

My point is that if I was willing to send someone to die, I'd damn well better be willing to do it myself.

[canetoad]

9. As in any other area of life

I would never ask someone to carry out a task I was not prepared to do myself.

This poll is a product of the deep levels of repressed and sometimes blatant violence we see on a left-wing message board. Do you consider carrying out the immediate duties of executioner in some way comparable to say, a military commander sending troops on a dangerous mission from which they may not return?

[Upton]

13. It's not about making me feel better..

it's about justice. And though like a lot of people here, I'm extremely disappointed with President Obama, he does have a quote regarding the DP which sums up my feelings nicely.. "I believe there are some crimes — mass murder, the rape and murder of a child — so heinous, so beyond the pale, that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment"

[Logical]

35. Not justice. Revenge. Big difference. And I assume you are Ok with some....

innocent person being executed by accident now and then.

[blueamy66]

58. somebody touches my nieces, nephew and great nieces and nephews

or stepson......it will make me feel amazingly better if they were sent to death row

If you take a life in a state in the US that has the DP, get ready to be sentenced to that.

What is the issue? I got an A+ on my death penalty paper in my Senior year. You don't wanna be executed....don't kill someone in a state that has a death penalty. No problema!

[NutmegYankee]

61. Aware. Got it. Try living here in Connecticut.

It's not as horrifying from half a world away.

[REP]

3. Your poll is simplistic. I support it in theory but not in current practice.

I think locking a human in a cage for life is inhumane. Death is kinder.

I do also think, however, that the judicial system is so suspect that it can no longer be trusted, and therefore a moratorium should be imposed. Better to rot in a cell within a violent prison for a crime one is falsely convicted of with the hope, however slim, of vindication than to die for it.

[canetoad]

5. The limitations of a quick poll

on an internet forum mean that it can be nothing more than simplistic. Many countries have caps on 'life' sentences at 15, 20 or 25 years and rely on rehabilitation to render the offender able to live in free society again.

Not being your own life at stake, it's a cheap shot to say death is kinder.

[REP]

26. Is it? Is living in a cage a kindness?

I have given these things a great deal of thought. How nice of you to dismiss anything contrary to your views in such an out of hand fashion.

And I mean "nice" in its original meaning.

Good evening.

[canetoad]

34. In primary school I had a great teacher

A promoter of concise language. He told us two words were forbidden; 'nice' and 'got'. His argument was they are lazy, sloppy words. There are more appropriate alternatives.

Can you tell me what is the correct way to dismiss your views on a forum? I've kept to the rules, I've used no bad language or personal insults, been cool and polite in my responses.

I think you are beaten and wont admit it.

[malthaussen]

8. Throw the Switch, Pull the Lever

It is a pretty well-known ethical tenet that what I do through another's hands, I do myself. So I would not have a problem in killing the condemned prisoner.

The difficulty comes, as pointed out above, in trusting whether or not the legal system "gets it right" when passing judgement. I would only be willing to execute someone if I was convinced of his guilt. That is, of course, an anarchistic position. cf Professor de la Paz's position in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Frankly, I think our whole approach to "justice" is weirdly misguided. Probably the "justest" thing we could do in cases of capital crime is hand the perpetrator over to the survivors of the deceased to be dealt with as they choose. Doubtless many would choose to carry out barbarous penalties on the prisoner, although I suspect that a surprising number would be unusually lenient, on the basis that "two wrongs don't make a right," or "you can't bring back the dead person." Obviously, such a system would be subject to tremendous abuses, so it's not something I would advocate. Which means, therefore, that we have to settle for something less than justice in such cases.


-- Mal

[canetoad]

10. I appreciate your honesty

It's been a long time since I read, 'The Moon....' Do you recall the quote, from Lazarus Long, I think, 'Don't carry a gun unless you intend to shoot, don't shoot unless you intend to kill'?

The issue of guilt or innocence, justice or injustice, does not come into play in my opposition to the DP.

[11 Bravo]

12. My Grandfather introduced me to Robert A. Heinlein.

I've read everything he ever wrote, and while I disagree with much of his politics, I love his novels.
TANSTAAFL.

[malthaussen]

21. Don't Recall that Quote

But it is certainly in character with Mr Long. I would substitute "are willing" for "intend," however, and would apply a caveat that it is not always necessary to shoot to kill. But then the quote would be much less pithy, and lose its impact.

In respect of your last point, of course if one is opposed to the DP on, say, humanitarian grounds then the issue of guilt, justice, etc. does not come into play. And it also frees one from the necessity of having to take responsibility for killing another human being. Gandalf the Grey made a good point when he reminded us not to be eager to deal death in judgement.

But the problem is how to sufficiently express society's displeasure at the commitment of certain acts so as to deter people from committing them. I would not suggest that the DP meets that standard: I would suggest that it may be impossible to do so.

-- Mal

[canetoad]

23. In history, the most horrendous tortures

were never enough to stop humans killing other humans and this makes me reject the DP as a deterrent.

This may sound strange for someone anti-DP, but I feel that the 30+ years that some US citizens spend on death row is a far worse torture than say, a quick trial and execution such as Tim McVeigh was subject to.

My main objection is the unseen, psychological damage that living in a DP state or country confers on its people. They become inured to violence and taking of life. It truly does my head in that the USA could no longer deal with images of convulsions in the gas chamber, smoke and flames at the electric chair, and have thus invented the 'humane' lethal injection.

I'm not from America. Here in Oz we discarded the DP forty or so years ago and apart from the odd extremist, there is no credible movement to reinstate it. There are still horrific murders; the offenders either suffer a life sentence of 25 years or are banged up in a violent offenders psychiatric unit. There have been a couple of cases when murderers are designated 'Never to Be Released'.

[malthaussen]

31. Oh, I agree there...

As I mention in the other post on this topic, the DP only deters the criminal executed from committing more crimes. Of course, this raises the "as well hung for a sheep as a lamb" argument.

And I think that a life in prison or an insane asylum is a much crueller punishment than death. Everyone dies. Not everyone lives like a caged animal.

Now, the issue of psychological damage to the citizens is not one I have considered. Since you have raised it, I would suggest that our society -- both America and Oz -- promotes violence and callousness in so many different ways that the potential damage of having a DP is trivial by comparison. But you could argue that this is so, and we need to start changing things at once, and the DP is a place to begin. Ultimately I am reduced to a gut feeling that some people deserve to die; but it is quite evident that most occupants of death row do not. After all, in the majority of cases murders are committed spontaneously, and the perpetrator truly regrets the action and is not a threat for repetition. I would be pleased if I could come up with a solution that tidily addresses all these concerns and creates true justice, but I am afraid true justice may be beyond mere mortals.

-- Mal

[canetoad]

42. This may sound strange

But I'm not convinced that a life in prison is a cruel torture. Let me explain; humans are adaptable, malleable. I'm not saying I would choose to live in prison, but there COULD be advantages for certain people in the form of a regimented life, 3 squares and a roof over the head. I'm not advocating prison life as desireable, but you are alive, your mind is as free as you want to be and compared to many wage slaves, it could be an uncomplicated way to live.

I don't really know. I've never been banged up in jail. All I can refer to is my own attitude to life which is somewhat stoical. You make the best of the hand dealt to you.

When you say, 'Some people deserve to die', I admit to a similar thought when confronted with particularly cruel, uncaring crimes but the opposition to state sanctioned killing kicks in and all I can do is put my trust in our justice system.

It needs mentioning that the system in Oz is quite different to the USA in that judges and prosecutors are not political appointments here. It makes the whole system a bit more low key, less swayed by public opinion than your system.

Agree completely that true justice is probably beyond most of us. We do the best we can within the system we live in. So far, I've seen no better system than juries, access to appeals etc.

Thank you for a good and reasoned discussion. I've enjoyed reading your comments.

[malthaussen]

49. Thank You, I have Enjoyed the Exchange as Well

Your point about prison is well-taken. "Stone walls do not a prison make," etc. I think one of the pesky things about determining justice is that it really does need to be taken on a case-by-case basis. It is not unimaginable that being immured in a cage for life might content some individuals or even be seen as a reward, especially for one who has never in his life enjoyed three hots and a cot. If the purpose of prison is to punish, it would obviously fail in that case.

All human behavior is subject to the tyranny of the bell-curve. This is one reason why I think that justice is so elusive.

-- Mal

[Lucky Luciano]

11. There are videos floating around the internet of families taking their revenge

on rapists by blindfolding them and executing them. The male members of the family each take turns shooting the perp until he is full of holes.

As you probably suspect, these cases are mostly in places like Afghanistan.

[apocalypsehow]

14. I am against the death penalty, for all sorts of reasons. But the smug moralizing of anti-capital

punishment preening-squad mitigates my revulsion of The Ultimate Punishment when it comes to actually debating the issue.

Eventually, it will fade out of Western Culture just as so many other throwbacks to our medieval past have - but in the meantime, I'm content to be against it without shedding too many tears for actual murderers such as those in the Connecticut case whose crimes you so cavalierly dismissed in your response above with a callous "I'm aware of the case."


Edit: typo.

[canetoad]

15. Maybe the DP should be introduced

For sloppy, badly expressed internet posts. I would champion your case despite the contradictions expressed above.

What you call cavalier, I call succinct. What you call callous, I call honest. Tearing hair and rending garments helps no-one.

[apocalypsehow]

16. And you make my point for me by doubling down, both on the preening and the callousness. Q.E.D. n/t.

[canetoad]

17. You forgot to add...

In Your Opinion.

[apocalypsehow]

19. Funny thing about discussion forums: that's where people go to post their opinons. It's a funny old

world, eh?


( :eyes: )

[canetoad]

20. That it is, apocalypsehow

And it's truly a funny old world when being, like 90% of the western world, against state-sanctioned killing, one is called callous and preening.

[apocalypsehow]

22. I've found that when shoes fit, the folks who should be wearing them usually are. n/t.

[canetoad]

24. And I've found

That when people run out of meaningful things to say, they resort to the old, thought-terminating cliches such as, 'If the shoe fits'.

[apocalypsehow]

37. And I've found that when people run out of meaningful things to say, they keep posting meaningless

replies in an juvenile attempt to have the vaunted "last word."

We again bump into Quod Erat Demonstrandum, courtesy of the OP. Textbook stuff. :thumbsup:

[canetoad]

40. How did that last word go for you then

Feel good?

[apocalypsehow]

44. Do you have any other input you wish to add regarding the content of your OP?

Otherwise, you're just getting giggles from the pseudo-cleverness you imagine represents some kind of scintillating repartee.

How about it? :shrug:

[canetoad]

50. I'm perfectly OK with all of that

It might pay you to differentiate between pseudo cleverness and being made to look like an idiotic dogs dinner of redundant comment.

[apocalypsehow]

52. Sure you are. Which is why the textbook definition of projection continues. Carry on. n/t.

[canetoad]

54. Fuck Godwins Law

The minute a layman resorts to psychiatric diagnosis you can sit back and say, 'I won'.

[Mimosa]

41. Right. Certain horrendous crimes should entail obliteration of the perpetrator.

In my opinion. IMO this is a slanted crooked poll. I didn't vote.

The rape and murder of Jessica Lunsford is among several. Ted Bundy was justifiably executed, too, for the vicious planned slayings of several women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lunsford

[canetoad]

45. It was intended to be a slanted poll

I wanted to see how far the DP supporters would go. No particular cases were cited, the poll was only to judge how serious the Old Testament bloodlust lingered on in a supposedly progressive community.

[Mimosa]

48. I'm betting most who support D.P. conditionally won't play.

It's not about 'Old Testament bloodlust' but a fine balancing of something approaching justice within the short lifepans we know on this earth.

If we are not certain there is a 'God' to right crimes or make retribution, human make attempts to deter the worst crimes and enact retribution. Obama did it to Bin Laden, for instance. Many, even most, did not believe that death penalty was wrong.

[REP]

30. An excellent reply

To an OP that doesn't deserve it.

[apocalypsehow]

38. The arrogance is pretty off-putting, isn't it? Glad I'm not the only one: thanks for your kind words

:toast:

[canetoad]

51. So, polite self-assuredness

Is called arrogance in your world. So shall it be.

[Azathoth]

53. That about says it

:thumbsup:

[JVS]

33. I support the death penalty but in a limited fashion.

For the most part I view the death penalty as obsolete, as our society has the means to confine guilty parties indefinitely. Under this rubric I do not support current application of the death penalty, but I do approve of the application of the penalty in earlier times when maintaining custody of a prisoner was not logistically feasible. For example, in the Old West or medieval era.

My second area of approval for the death penalty is in the political realm. I fully support the application of the death penalty in examples such as the Nürnberg trials or in the execution of the Russian royal family, as these examples of capital punishment were instrumental in demonstrating that a return to the previous regime would not happen.

[Major Nikon]

39. If you're all for bayonetting children...

I'm not sure why you'd be against executing convicted criminals. If you're only looking at it from a practical sense, why not simply put a bullet in the head of anyone sentenced to life who no longer has a route of appeal? The price of a bullet is far less than providing care for someone for the rest of their life.

[Fumesucker]

46. I have a better question for DP supporters..

Would you willingly allow yourself to be executed for a crime you did not commit in order that the death penalty be maintained?

Strangely enough I don't find very many who would do that, perhaps their devotion to the death penalty is somewhat less than 100%.

[canetoad]

55. Good question

This thread was intended to gather the most virulent DP supporters in one place, but I'm glad you've injected a little humanity.

[MFrohike]

57. I don't get your point

Maybe I'm slow today, but what would be the point of allowing yourself to be executed if you're not guilty?

Given the multiple typos I made trying to type the above sentence, my being slow is pretty likely.

[Fumesucker]

63. The execution of innocents is a given with the death penalty..

Like all human activities the justice system is imperfect, if the death penalty is applied it will eventually be applied to someone who is innocent.

If you are a supporter of the death penalty you accept the occasional execution of an innocent person in order that your chosen method of revenge punishment be continued.

Would a supporter of the death penalty be willing to be that innocent person who is executed in order that the death penalty be continued?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AH5sE7d47U

[MFrohike]

65. Got it

Thanks

[aikoaiko]

66. I don't get the question. A convicted criminal is not asked to willingly submit to any punishement

Whether I were wrongfully accused of a crime or rightfully accused, all I could ask for is due process.

I am willing to be subjected to the same criminal justice as everyone else.

[Fumesucker]

67. Are you a death penalty supporter?

If so then would it bother you to be wrongly convicted and executed when you were in actual fact innocent?

Because it's *going* to happen to someone at some point, why not you?

[Throd]

68. Being wrongly convicted for ANYTHING would be horrible.

[aikoaiko]

69. Yes and yes.

It would bother me to be wrongly convicted and punished - especially with the death penalty. I am willing to subject myself to a flawed justice system where that is possible.

[Fumesucker]

72. It's inevitable that an innocent will be executed..

That is just the nature of human conduct, we make mistakes.

Why would it bother you to be that executed innocent person if you think the death penalty is a good thing?

[aikoaiko]

74. It puzzles me that you would ask that question.

I can think that X is a good thing overall even if X sometimes leads to leads to grave mistakes.

[Motown_Johnny]

71. Many of us do not support the system as it now exists but still support the concept

that some crimes are so horrible as to justify the most severe penalty possible.


I feel that a higher level of certainty be necessary for a death penalty sentence.


Reasonable doubt is not adequate. In some cases the amount of evidence is so vast as to leave no possible doubt of guilt. Eyewitnesses along with video which confirms their testimony as well as DNA evidence could be one combination which might leave no possible doubt.



I am against any possibility of innocent persons being put to death but every now and then there is someone who needs to be removed from society with no possibility of ever returning.

one previous post of mine on the subject

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1964040#1967133




This one has a sub-thread debating vigilantes murdering the man v. death penalty

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9676806#9676910

[Fumesucker]

73. So you think that perfection is possible in human affairs?

Because without utter perfection then there will eventually be an innocent executed if execution is among the available penalties.

[Motown_Johnny]

77. No, I think there will still be people who do not receive the death penalty who deserve it

but I do think it is possible to insure that no innocent be executed.

[canetoad]

56. How totally fucking cool is this

There are ten supposed progressives who would personally administer the death penalty.

[Throd]

70. And then I'll drag the corpse out back to be set upon by feral dogs.

[aikoaiko]

59. I'm pro-death penalty as an option for heinous crimes where there is certainty of the actor....

...and no compelling mitigating circumstances.

I reject your premise that the actions in your poll are barbaric and therefore cannot answer your poll.

Except for knitting. Pure barbarism for sure.

[Thegonagle]

62. I understand how you feel, and I've felt the same way from time to time. That's only human.

But in the end, the principle is of the death penalty is mired in hypocrisy. If murder is the ultimate sin one human can commit a against another, then no justice is served by the state-sanctioned murder of a prisoner. We, the imperfect human race, should not allow ourselves to pick and choose who dies, and when and how. If we punish murder by murdering, the accuser shows itself to be no better than then accused.

[aikoaiko]

64. If one considers DP murder, then what you say follows.

Murder is an unlawful homicide and the death penalty is lawful.

The convicted murderer did not provide lawful due process for his or her victim, while the state does provide the murderer due process before execution and that does make the state better than the murderer.

[Capitalocracy]

76. "Bring your knitting" - watch Red State (Kevin Smith). nt