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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 06:51 AM
Original message
Lets draw the M$M a picture, shall we...
This guy...



Who has one of these...



For pulling this country...



Out from behind this...



Is now throwing his support behind this...

OccupyWallStreet


To save this...



From this...




WOOT!


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piratefish08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. i wish i could rec this thread a thousand times.......
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Scottybeamer70 Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. strongly recommend!...........n/t
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. Walesa -a real hero. Occupy - a real protest
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
26. and THAT is what the fascist elite fear - the images that a march w/Walesa would produce.
It would be as unspinnable for their corporate mouthpieces in the newsmedia as the images from Katrina.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
105. This is a game changer nt
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #105
108. yes...and THEY know it
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 01:27 PM by blm
so, I see a flurry of obstacles heading OWS' way to try and prevent any such image repeating for OWS movement.
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LeftofObama Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
4. Absolutely Brilliant! n/t
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. Lovely.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
6. You rock!
:bounce: :applause: :yourock: :toast:

Nicely done!

Rec'd.
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livetohike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
:kick:
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LeftinOH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
8. Well done; kick.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. K&R
:applause:
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
10. Well done!
n/t
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
11. K&R n/t
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
12. best post ever
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
13. Well done,
well done indeed.
The man pretty much single handedly saved Poland. I've a lot of respect for him, A real Hero type of respect
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. His support for OWS actually gives me chills when I think of it.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. It gives this old man a feeling of hope like I've not had before in a long long time.
Its now, its started and there is no turning it back. the genie is out of the bottle.
This morning there is some rich assholes and congress critter enablers having a problem with their normal morning routine, if you get my drift, and its about time for this to happen. After all we are the change we seek. Without us nothing will be done, you can bet shit will start happen now.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #16
46. same here....
.
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AnotherMother4Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
158. Old lady here & I very much appreciate his solidarity - for my children & grandchildren. Thank you.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
186. And a perfect reply to those who whine
"they can't possibly accomplish anything by these tactics!"
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
14. Very nice!
Thank you.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
17. K&R
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
18. I love the Lech...
He had inspired me when I was young..er. lol and he's still an amazing human!

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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. And he looks real tough in that 80s pic
maybe things are looking up :)
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AikidoSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #22
69. OMG! Lech Walesa looks like Robin Williams when they were young! That's who I thought Walensa
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 12:08 PM by AikidoSoul
was when I first looked at the OP's post and the first photo of Walesa in the lineup. Holy Strange! :yoiks:

He looks a lot different now. There was a post on DU yesterday by Omaha Steve who wrote that Walensa is flying to N.Y. to support the protesters. He included his picture: Link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...




edited to correct spelling of name.
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Joe Shlabotnik Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
142. Totally bad-ass
like he's gonna fight Charles Bronson!
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
19. That is simply brilliant!
...
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
20. Good one!
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
21. K&R
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Chimichurri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
23. Nice post! k&r
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
24. EXCELLENT...can you FB this so it can be spread?
.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I don't do FB...
but You can take it as yours if you like :hi:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. I would if I wasn't a frigging idiot when it comes to posting pics. heheh
I can tell you all about the history of BCCI, but, turn into a dunce when posting pics. ; )
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Just shared on my FB page
Love it!
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #28
40. cool, thanks
:thumbsup:
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
159. How did you post it to your fb? Copy and pasting doesn't seem to work?
What am i doing wrong! I want to make this go viral too!
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
29. Does anyone really think they don't know this already?
If there's anything I'm more tired of than right-wing repression, it's the middle-class delusion that if they somehow "get it" they will magically turn into nice, obedient citizens.

After you've succeeded with Manson's helpers, I'll MAYBE believe that you have a ghost of a chance with the Koch brothers' helpers in the media. I mean, Manson's folks were young, naive, under the influence of drugs - they should be really easy compared to the corporate media, who have trained for decades, make billions of dollars for what they're doing AND get a seat at the table of governance. And they're supposed to give up all this because they're not being nice to the poor?

The only disagreement they have with your picture is that it's too risky for the rich man to pee on folks directly. He has middle-class workers like the New York Times drink his pee, and then THEY go and pee on other folks.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. we need to make the images UNSPINNABLE for them....unfortunately, as powerful as Katrina images were
For a few weeks Katrina photos threw the corporate mouthpieces off from their talking points. Images of Walesa marching in solidarity with OWS would have a worldwide audience before corpmedia could spin it against them.
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
114. The Whole World is Watching, and...
the Whole World will be Watching!

Walesa marching in solidarity with the 99% everywhere, together!

The People, United, Will Never Be Defeated!



k&r for the awesomely clear OP!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #114
122. and this graphic downthread
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EdMaven Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #29
171. lol. "has middle-class workers like the nyt drink his pee first, and *they*..."
but you're mistaken that the nyt represents the middle class. ruling class all the way & the few workers there follow the party line sent down from on high or don't last.

"the voice of one wing of the ruling class"
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Eyerish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
30. K&R
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
31. K & R
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
32. Absolutely wonderful, classic.
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joanbarnes Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
33. Solidarnosc....the most powerful movement of our lifetimes (so far)!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #33
44. exactly...iconic images that the fascist elite do NOT want recreated when he marches with OWS
.
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samsingh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
34. brilliant
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
35. Walesa goes whichever way the wind blows.
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 10:01 AM by provis99
far from being a leftist, his views are typical of the right-wing Polish nationalists. He spied for the communists when it suited him, and opposed Polish trade unions that didn't cater to him.
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DoBotherMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #35
58. Cooperating is more productive than being killed
He's Roman Catholic and opposes abortion. And yet, he is the most powerful symbol (along with Mandela) of the struggle against oppression. IMO. Dana ; )
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MattSh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #58
174. Do tell. Who was going to kill him?
Or are you just making shit up?
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geardaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #35
61. I was just reading some stuff about him.
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 11:13 AM by geardaddy
He's staunchly anti-abortion and has a man-crush on St. Ronny.

But, I still think he's a good representative for a struggle like OWS.

Edited to add K and R.
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PotatoChip Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
36. Love it!
Excellent job tk2kewl! :applause:

Oh and K&R!!!
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aquamarina Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
38. B.R.A.V.O.!!!
Awesome pictoral.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
39. Excellent! nt.
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
41. This day just gets better and better!
Many thanks to Duer tk2kewl.


OWS peaceful protest holds ground, anticipating the arrival of Lech Walesa.




Mike Marsland/WireImage
Lech Walesa has warned of a "worldwide revolt against capitalism" if the Wall St. protests are ignored.



Making a new and uplifting history in America is simply beautiful.






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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
42. k&r
this man knows the difference.
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handmade34 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
43. kudos
makes me smile

"...Walesa has been granted many honorary degrees from universities, including Harvard University and the University of Paris. Other honors include the Medal of Freedom (Philadelphia, U.S.A.); the Award of Free World (Norway); and the European Award of Human Rights..."
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
45. K & R - I think the Revolution just entered a new phase... n/t
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
47. Zajmuja
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 10:40 AM by graywarrior
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66 dmhlt Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. "Solidarity" joins with "Occupy" ... I like it!
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. Zajmuja is Polish for Occupy
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #54
63. cool
and thanks
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #54
94. Thanks graywarrior... that's my graphic which i will update!
:hi:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. love it, stlsaxman
.
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #94
100. na zdrowie!
:toast:
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #54
101. here ya go....
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #101
110. You need to post your graphic at the end of tk2kewl's and repost to make it go viral.
.
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #101
111. Stealing
for fb

I freaking LOVE it!

Dziekuja

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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #101
113. Posted to fb with credit to you
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #113
160. How did you do that on fb? Trying to do it too, but not savy need step by step..
please!
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #160
175. Go to the name of your page tab, not the home page
Near the top, you'll see Update Status & Add video/photo. Click add vid/photo. Another square appears, so click Upload Photo/Video again. Browse for your files--you probably have them in pics, right? Choose pic and there you have it! Add text if you want and you're done
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #175
176. I copied and pasted in word document but it won't upload
fb doesn't say why.. I'm thinking the images might be too large, dunno though. darn.
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #176
181. You need to save the image to your picture file then upload it from there
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-11 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #181
184. yeah. thanks..
I wanted to post it as one file as opposed to several different uploads resulting in several different "posts".. :shrug:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #101
115. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ another winner ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
.
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #101
126. + 7 billion
minus 1% and theiR minion$

(Although we Hope they will come to their senses, realize this planet needs Healing measures fast, and Help us all.)
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
48. Nobel Prizes are worthless, doncha know (SARCASM)
According to Republicans.

President Obama got one, Paul Krugman got one, Nelson Mandela got one, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. got one.....

President Jimmy Carter, Ralph Bunche, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, Leymah Gbowee, Tawakkul Karman, Desmond Tutu


so they are worthless. Sometimes even Negroes get them. :sarcasm:

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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
78. And war criminals like Henry Kissinger even get them. n/t
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #78
119. But their beloved bu$hhhhhh didn't.
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 02:06 PM by Amonester
Nor did theiR five-defeRment$ liaR/toRtuRer cheneyouR$elf-in-the-face.

So they R worthless to them.
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SalviaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
50. Perfect!
recommended
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
51. BRAVO!
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
52. The M$M could give a fuck.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. Exactly...which is why WE need to spread the images.
.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #55
75. I'm with you....nt
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
53. Excellent post!!!!!
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
56. K & R
:applause:
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canuckledragger Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
57. K & R
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Magoo48 Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
59. Love picture stories.....super!!!
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stonecutter357 Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
60. get the money out of politics.
get the money out of politics.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #60
84. Yup.
The "right" already completely dominates the media. But even that is not enough advantage for them.

They can use unlimited corporate money to control the process yet still find the need to engage in a huge nation wide effort to suppress the vote. What does this tell us?

Take away any one of their advantages and they are finished.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:11 AM
Original message
K&R
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tosh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
62. WOOT!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
64. if you have a Kos account, please download the image and post it....tk2kewl doesn't care
about credit, just action.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
65. The more the Powers That Be try and destroy the movement
the more it will gain traction around the world. The international news will make the M$M look like McCorporate News to one and all. That would matter to people with integrity. Sadly, there is none in the rank and file M$M drones.
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peace frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #65
77. +Infinity
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #65
141. ^^
^
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
66. K&R nt
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classof56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
67. K&R for Walesa and OWS.
His support is amazing. And that trickle down practice--nailed it!

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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
68. K & R
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
70. Fantastic! The only thing I would change is the protest pic since it kind of seems
like he is throwing his support behind the women getting maced. Other than that, brilliant! Thanks for posting.

:)

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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
71. k&r
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ThatsMyBarack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
72. Too big to put on a poster....
But otherwise nice job! :hi:
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
73. Fabulous!
:rofl:
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FailureToCommunicate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
74. Excellent!
thanks tk2kewl!
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
76. Kicked and recommended! nt
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
79. Favorite du post ever! ...nt
TYY
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
80. I'm going to hate myself for saying this in light of 280+ recs
But can we ask for some intellectual consistency here?

Walesa is a pro-capitalist. He equates capitalism with lofty vague notions of 'freedom' and 'democracy'. He wants capitalism to save itself.

We don't need romanticized heroes. We need the everyday people to have a real voice. This is a step toward co-opting. Look one step deeper. Walesa is a supporter of the status quo, maybe a 'kinder and gentler' status quo, but nonetheless... He is carrying water for the ruling class.

His message is basically 'hey Wall Street, throw the peons some crumbs or the commies will take over'. God forbid there is a 'worldwide revolt against capitalism'.

How is wealth disparity in Poland these days, anyway? A worldwide revolt against capitalism is a GOOD thing.

From just last week:


Poland's booming economy belies a widening wealth gap

Mon, Oct 3, 2011 - AFP 2:01 | 107 views

As Poles prepare to vote in this week's general election, they're enjoying economic growth of almost 4 percent and a fall in unemployment. But although Poland's economic success is the envy of the rest of Europe, it belies a widening gap between the country's rich and poor.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/business-25406654/poland...
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Harmony Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. No offense
but Walesa is starting to change his stance on Capitalism if you have bothered to read what he has been saying lately.

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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. LIke last year when he endorsed a Republican candidate for Illinois governor
and warned that under Obama the US was creeping toward socialism?

Please, if I am missing something, send me a link.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Never too old to reconsider some past positions. What counts today is he's RIGHT to march w/OWS now
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 12:44 PM by blm
..
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. Again, I will ask for links to his words
All I have seen are his recent quotes about OWS which confirm what I am saying. He is an apologist for Wall Street and is pointing out that if the ruling class doesn't throw some crumbs at the people then capitalism will be threatened worldwide.

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EdMaven Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #89
172. solidarity with lech brought unemployment, increasing inequality, and
a decline in living standards & life expectancy to poland.

he's a jinx. and he's been sent in by his bosses.

i can't believe the hero-worship here.

we don't need no fucking heroes. we need to be heroic.
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Harmony Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #88
96. There are over 122 articles about this on google
http://online.wsj.com/article/APb6ba79d7a2c741ddb02b454...

Yes his stance on Capitalism is shifting.


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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. I have seen his quotes about OWS
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 01:00 PM by Cal Carpenter
As I said above:

His message is basically 'hey Wall Street, throw the peons some crumbs or the commies will take over'. God forbid there is a 'worldwide revolt against capitalism'.

He wants to save capitalism, not confront its inherent problems. He is repeating the same propaganda that aligned him with Reagan and the elder Bush.

Where is the shift? I don't see it.
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Harmony Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. You are being dishonest
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 01:12 PM by Harmony Blue
if you refuse to acknowledge he is shifting his stance on Capitalism. He even highlights many of the points that you brought up about Capitalism, which is that the wealth isn't being distributed.

"For now, capitalism is working to produce more money but does not see the people," Walesa said. "This problem is getting worse across the world."

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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. I'm not being dishonest
If you can't provide more than these 2 or 3 (relatively substance-free) quotes about OWS to show his 'shifting stance' then you aren't making your case.

In the face of the current global crisis of capitalism along with the people's reaction to it like OWS (and in Greece for the last few years and in several other countries as well), of course pro-capitalists are forced to recognize reality. However, if the best they can say is 'well, we need to make it more fair' then they aren't changing their stance, they are just giving lip service to the working people.

Again, please provide something substantial demonstrating his stance changing, because so far all I see are a few platitudes and some relatively recent pro-US Republican statements from him.

I am not being dishonest. I am looking for intellectual honesty and I am not getting caught in the traps of propaganda, sorry.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Most of OWS is pro-capitalist.
Most of DU is pro-capitalist. We only want a semblance of fairness. There would be no protests had the greedy elite not overreached.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. exactly right...and context is everything. Many of us were/are pro-HEALTHY capitalism
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 12:35 PM by blm
that promotes social justice over senseless accumulation of wealth.
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #87
97. Capitalism is an economic system
based on faulty assumptions like the possibility of infinite growth. It is an inherently 'unhealthy' system, to use your language.

How can it possibly promote social justice when its main goal is to erase economic justice?

How, in the face of history (and math, for that matter) can we continue to push the idea that it can be reformed or regulated to stop exploiting workers and creating wealth disparity when it is BASED on those things?

Why must we keep defending it?
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Have you been to any of the Occupy sites and talked to people?
I have, and I plan to go to more.

In my experience most people there weren't pro-capitalist. In fact they are actively seeking a better understanding of the capitalist economic system and why it doesn't work.

Capitalism CANNOT be fair. It is based on never-ending growth and concentration of wealth/power. History shows us that any efforts to reform or regulate it are short-lived or half-assed. And currently, with the power relationship between money and politics globally, there are hardly even nominal efforts at 'reform' or fairness, let alone measurable, material efforts.

Capitalism = the rich getting richer (and fewer in number) and the poor getting poorer (and larger in number). This is inevitable, it cannot be regulated into submission.

There is no agreed-upon ideology at OWS. Here in the US in particular, we have suffered from several generations of propaganda about capitalism equating with freedom. The only freedom in capitalism is for the rich to get richer. We are just wrapping our heads around that. If this movement gets co-opted already it is doomed. We aren't even gonna get crumbs.

I understand that I am in the minority here at DU on this topic, and I often bite my tongue, but seeing the overwhelming support for Walesa's desire to participate in OWS made me feel obligated to be the one dissenting voice.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #86
124. I don't know if OWS is overwhelmingly pro-capitalist but DU sure is -
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 02:38 PM by TBF
I love to come to DU and read about issues like glbt rights, animal issues, women's issues, etc - but when it comes to economics it's disappointing. There are a handful of sensible socialists, communists and anarchists who see capitalism as it is. Most are still wallowing in the "American Dream".
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #124
139. Most of us feel the abuses of capitalism can be
reined in and controlled providing a good standard of living for everyone. But, this requires strictly enforced regulation and strictly limited corporate political influence.

That's the goal right there. Not one single word from the corporations on how the nation should be run, not a fucking word. Corporations are simply not people. Only by the consent of the people the corporations should be allowed a profit. The very instant they stop being "good corporate citizens" their charter should end. That's the system I want. That is all.
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #124
144. 480+ recs now for Reagan and Thatcher's RIGHT hand man
Charming.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #144
147. It's going to hit 500, and I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Obama admires Reagan by his own admission, and it appears a whole bunch of his supporters do as well.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #144
148. BS. And one more rec for one of the great heroes of the 20th Century.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #144
149. Back in 2006, Duers were more savvy about Lech Walesa and his right-wing ways:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...



France has too much freedom: Lech Walesa

VIENNA, Aug 30, 2006 (AFP) - Poland's former president and legendary head of the Solidarity union, Lech Walesa, hailed the role played by the country's current political leaders, the twin brothers Lech and Jaroslaw Kaczynski, within the European Union as a counterpoint to the "French model".

In an interview to appear Thursday in the Austrian daily Der Standard, Walesa said that "the French model, which is based on freedom, has not been effective and is bad. (But) if there did not exist people like Lech and Jaroslaw Kaczynski, that is what would be chosen" for the future of the EU.

"France has built an open society, inviting Africans and Arabs to its country, building mosques, and not churches. And
after there was fire in the streets," the conservative former head of state and Nobel peace laureate said.

"You have to thank God there exist people like the Kaczynskis."

The attitude of the new Polish government dominated by President Lech Kaczynski, and his twin, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the new prime minister, has raised concerns within the EU, especially regarding their positions in favor of the death penalty, opposition to homosexuality and alleged anti-Semitism.

<snip>

Asked about Poland's controversial ultra-Catholic Radio Marija, Walesa said he supported about 95 percent of its programmes and that he never heard anti-Semitic remarks on the station.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchan ...


It's sad to see what Lech Walesa has become.

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #144
165. Maybe it speaks to a stunning lack of leadership
Most people today probably have only a vague recollection of Walesa as a strong 'leader of the people' of some kind, somewhere, who garnered tons of media attention as a powerful agent of er...hope and change.

Maybe?
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #80
117. +1
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unionworks Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #80
145. Sez You
I am a left wing Democrat. Not a Communist And I think the American Communist Party has it's own website...which is probably run by COINTELPRO. (HINT) This man throwing his support behind OWS is the 1%s worst nightmare. And their tools- visible and hidden- are freaking out over it.
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #145
150. LOL
And now some red-baiting from a self-proclaimed 'left wing' person with union in their user name?

I am outta this thread...
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unionworks Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #150
151. Please Honor Me
...by putting me on your "ignore" list.
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EdMaven Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #80
170. walesa was a tool of the west & he got a nice payoff for it. i for one
am not slobbering over his visit. i wish he'd go home & have another snack.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #80
173. You have to appreciate that people are happy about it because it's a sore point to the wingnuts.
The right wingers want everyone to believe that everything is fine and dandy with capitalism and that everything it hunky dory. The very idea that these punk kids protesting out in the cold could represent the population is just mind boggling to them.

Yes, he has his own motives, mainly to make sure a regulated capitalism can foster.

But as far as I'm concerned most people responding are just happy that a winger hero is on our side.

It's as if Chomsky finally lost it and decided to start marching with the teabaggers or something equally ludicrous.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #173
179. Thanks for 'getting' this.
.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
81. Good!
A poser for right wingers.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
82. Excellent!!!
- K&R
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
83. kewl
K/R
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
91. K&R
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mother earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
93. MSM has been bought too, that's why they're "confused".
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
95. Big K&R!
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
102. You're an outstanding dot connecting artist.
Thanks for the thread, tk2kewl. :thumbsup:
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #102
130. thanks
:hi:
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
104. Wodka all around! nt
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Blaze Diem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Bring the good stuff Lec!
lol
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #107
133. Now that would be real solidarity
I'm there!
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
109. Cute!
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
112. Joyful K&R!
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AikidoSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
116. Recommended! Thank you for this wonderful post



:kick:




:yourock:


The bottom image of the pissing 1%. That is EXACTLY THE SAME idea I've had for a long time about "trickle down" economics -- only my image was of a fat guy with a cigar in his mouth pissing off a fancy balcony onto the masses below.

Thank you, thank you for this post!
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
118. GREAT POST!!! K&R!
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
120. The K
...and the R.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. and don't forget to steal and spread....would love to see it go viral along with stlsaxman's graphic
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
123. k&r for economic justice. n/t
-Laelth
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disillusioned73 Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
125. Nice job..
just shared it with others
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
127. "So lemme get this straight..."
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
128. So we are showing overwhelming support for -



Some who loves this:


And is opposed to this:







:scared: :scared: :scared:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #128
134. compartmentalizing is sometimes necessary....see Dennis Kucinich's conversions over the years.
.
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unionworks Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #128
156. YES
I am showing more than support for this brave man. We have the same blood flowing through our veins. Once upon a time, I caught a company fink spitting his chewing tobacco on my car during a break. An hour later, he walked up to my line and grinned at me, and put a big pinch in his mouth. I put down the steel bars I was working on, took off my leather gloves, and hit the fink so hard his baseball cap landed 10 feet away. It did this really hilarious helicopter thing. I was suspended from work w/o pay for 3 days. When I came back, my union brothers came to me one by one, and put money in my hand to make up for my lost wages. This Polish Gentleman has been through my experience times a million. He is the George Washington of Poland. God bless him and OWS.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #128
182. I must say, those were my first thoughts too
I also get the "compartmentalizing" part, and that this could be a fatal blow to the Tea Party - the Reaganistas may just have to sign on to OWS.

:eyes:

It is what it is - some bad, some good. Better than 100% shit, like from the GOTP.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
129. Outstanding!
So simple even Erin Burnett could get it . . . if she could pull her head out of her corporate master's ass, that is.
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lsewpershad Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
131. Couldn't have
done any better myself.
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
132. K&R
:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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abelenkpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
135. K&R nt
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unionworks Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
136. I am crying
Tears of joy. SOLIDARITY!!!
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Dont call me Shirley Donating Member (396 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
137. Brilliant!
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
138. BIG K&R!
PB
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
140. K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R!!!
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Firebrand Gary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
143. K&R So Brilliant!
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unionworks Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
146. SUPER WOOT!!!
:toast: "in heaven there is no beer, that's why we drink it here". YIPPEE!!!
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
152. BEAUTIFUL!!! REC. nt
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
153. too good to keep to myself
I'm gonna share this one :)

:fistbump:
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unionworks Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
154. I am Catholic
But haven't been to Church in a while. But. I am going tomorrow at 5- right after attending "Occupy Erie Pa" at three- because this is a freaking miracle.I
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
155. Request Permission to SHARE this on my FB!!
Absolutely Perfect Illustration! I love this!

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unionworks Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #155
157. scroll up
And read. It looks like permission has already been granted. :-)
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #157
162. Yes, thanks.. Now, I'm having a problem of actually posting it to my fb
copy and paste didn't work for the images, only the text. context is everything and that's in the graphics!
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
161. One of the best posts I've seen in ages!!
:yourock:
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #161
163. Agree!
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
164. Dang. Wish I could figure out a way to share this to Facebook.
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 11:50 PM by calimary
I don't think cut 'n' paste necessarily works.
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #164
177. cut and paste didn't work for me, directly or even on word doc. wouldn't upload
darn.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #164
183. someone just linked the thread
.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
166. Holy shiite! 565 recs?! Don't think I've ever seen this many net positive recs on a thread EVER.
Edited on Sat Oct-15-11 12:47 AM by LAGC
+1!!!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-11 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #166
185. curious to its standing...whatever it is, it is well deseved
.
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SkatmanRoth Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
167. K&R
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 05:10 AM
Response to Original message
168. Beautiful explanation.... And he did it while raising eight
children, going to prison, being drugged and photographed with prostititues... What they did to this man and still could not stop him... Should be told over and over again... He became the first recipient of the liberty Medal which was awarded on 4 July 1989 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 05:10 AM
Response to Original message
169. You can't get them to pay attention because they are being paid not to.
Great post though
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #169
180. that's an unfortunate truth
and why it's up to us to spread posts and images like this one.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
178. Kick And Wish I Could Rec !!!
:kick:
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-11 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
187. Kick Kick Kick!
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