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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 01:44 PM
Original message
What Everyone Is Too Polite to Say About Steve Jobs
What Everyone Is Too Polite to Say About Steve Jobs


In the days after Steve Jobs' death, friends and colleagues have, in customary fashion, been sharing their fondest memories of the Apple co-founder. He's been hailed as "a genius" and "the greatest CEO of his generation" by pundits and tech journalists. But a great man's reputation can withstand a full accounting. And, truth be told, Jobs could be terrible to people, and his impact on the world was not uniformly positive.

---------------------------------

One thing he wasn't, though, was perfect. Indeed there were things Jobs did while at Apple that were deeply disturbing. Rude, dismissive, hostile, spiteful: Apple employeesthe ones not bound by confidentiality agreementshave had a different story to tell over the years about Jobs and the bullying, manipulation and fear that followed him around Apple. Jobs contributed to global problems, too. Apple's success has been built literally on the backs of Chinese workers, many of them children and all of them enduring long shifts and the specter of brutal penalties for mistakes. And, for all his talk of enabling individual expression, Jobs imposed paranoid rules that centralized control of who could say what on his devices and in his company.

http://gawker.com/5847344/what-everyone-is-too-polite-t...
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Not everyone. Not I. n/t
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. We discussed these very issues here, so I don't know - I guess DU is rude.
But we did talk about that on the day he died/the day after. To our credit, I think we all did talk about it as politely as possible, but we did talk about it.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. but he made the Chinese make cool toys so all is forgiven
Edited on Tue Oct-11-11 01:49 PM by Skittles
:puke:
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. He also amassed an estate estimated vairously between $4-7 billion. That
right there should engenders at least a smidgeon of skepticism about his beatification.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. No porn or porn apps on iphones
I would think that, alone, would make him a hero to many here.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
69. That's not exactly true. I see pricks on iPhones all the time.
But, then that depends on your point of view, too, I guess, as well.
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Apple has $76 billion in cash on its books...where are the jobs, Jobs?
another failed job creator...
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
59. Are you seriously suggesting Apple has created no jobs in the U.S.?
Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, would disagree with you.
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. where do you get those numbers?
stop making up stuff.
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Get out of your bedroom sometime.
There is a real world out there. Apple has 35,000 employees with most in the U.S. That does not count the Apple stores all over the country. That does not include the hundreds of companies that have been created in the U.S. to serve Macs, I phones, I pods and everything else. That does not count the thousands of U.S. retail establishment which sell Apple products. That does not include the employees who distribute Apple products across the U.S. If you don't know any of this you are really isolated from the world. Grow up.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #59
68. You mean currently employed at Apple stores, or the total number employed over the years?
At Apple stores. I wonder how many of those people enjoy/ed full-time employment with benefits?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. It's been said--just not in the media. We had a field day here, recently.
The guy had some good ideas, but he was an ASSHOLE.

Anyone who would go to court and lie, and say they were sterile, to get out of paying child support is, IMO, a fucking scumbag. And that is just what Saint Steve did.

It's fine to have high standards, but he never learned the "Praise in public, punish in private" rule that makes for a workforce with decent morale. You take people's dignity, you take away their motivation.

http://www.moneycone.com/10-interesting-facts-about-app...
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
34. +1
I would not want that person in my life as employer, or any other relation. He sounds like a supreme jerk, and I don't care how many nifty toys he invented or how 'cool' he was.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #34
67. I have worked for "that" guy. Not Jobs--but someone just as mean and vicious.
A couple of 'em, actually. What they taught me was how NOT to treat people.

It was a couple of valuable lessons, painfully learned.

If you treat people the way you yourself would like to be treated, if you take that deep breath before you rip someone's head off, if you use your chain of command (and this applies even in civilian agencies) so that everyone is "in the loop" and people aren't going around one another, you usually end up with a motivated crew--unless the job is just a case of shovelling endless shit with no relief in sight--that can depress even the most optimistic of the pony hopers! For the most part, though, if you have the tools and the will to accomplish the work, and you're treating everyone respectfully, you're going to see good results. Most people like to do a good job. For every slacker I had on my team, I had a hundred people who were good-to-great.
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Dawson Leery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
65. +1
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. And he stole the gui idea from Xerox. nt
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. He was a control freak who demanded everyone live up to the standards he did.
That is the price of excellence.

Frankly I can't live like that, but people with such discipline and drive are pretty impressive.
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Tom Ripley Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Not from me; I have never believed that the mere act of dying ennobles anyone
Jobs was a pig
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
40. The lives (and deaths) of Jean d'Arc, Nathan Hale, and SSgt Robert J. Miller ...
(I had to throw in at least one I knew you would need to Google) force me to disagree with your blanket assessment of the nature of death and dying.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. You are conflating actions before death with "the mere act of dying."
Edited on Tue Oct-11-11 05:36 PM by tabasco
Just my $0.02.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Those actions were the cause of their deaths. How does one separate the two?
Clearly the one imbues the other with a certain measure of "nobility". Just my $0.03.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. A heroic action. The end of biological life.
Two distinct things.

The end of biological life doesn't make someone a hero.

Hope it helps.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. If a soldier throws himself atop a grenade to save a comrade's life, thus ending his own ...
is that heroic, or are you going to continue to pretend that the events are disparate? If so, well ... speaking of life, mine is too short to spend any part of it engaged with pointless semantic jousting with a pedantic putz.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. How long would Apple have stayed in business if they were selling a PC for 3-4X more than all
other manufacturers? I'm no Apple apologist - I've always thought they were over-priced relative to PC equivalent benchmarks. But I really can't fault Apple for protecting shareholder value and reacting to macro-economic policies that our USG encouraged.

If we expect corporations to be subservient to the economic interests of society at large, I think we are kidding ourselves. A corporation, by nature, is beholden only to the BOD and stockholders. Their "vision" is executing a business plan that looks out a few quarters, at best with the sole objective of maximizing return on investment. What they do in their best economic interests is to be expected. The problem is when the summation of corporate micro interests are in conflict with the macro interests of our society. Directing that resolution in favor of our country's macro-interests should be the rightful role of our government. And ultimately, I would argue, that is in the best long term interests of all companies. If our government, today, said that all computers sold in the USA had to be made in the USA; all semi-conductor content, all plastics, all metal fabrications had to be sourced in the US...we'd pay a lot more for the privilege of owning a computer. But we'd also have a more economically viable society, with sustainable employment, and better national security implications because we'd be able to actually produce things instead of being totally dependent on production in other low wage countries.

I guess I look at corporations and government analogous to children and the parent. When the children dictate rules to the parent, it never ends well for either.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Actually it would further stratify the haves and the have nots.
With the have nots being know nots.
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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Gee, you mean hiring Americans and taking a little less profit would have
caused the failure of Apple? That kind of thought process injected into the 99% as though it's the truth and only answer like you've present is what our problems are.

Sooner or later as the 99%ers and also as a huge sector of the purchasing public, we will need to learn to do without certain toys and games and put our principles of fair labor ahead of our personal gotta-have-it now attitudes.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. No, I'm saying that no responsible corporation will risk it's capital by putting
itself at a competitive disadvantage. Those fat margins that Apple made is what attracted people to buy their stock in the first place and gave them the necessary capital to invest in R&D to make the next generation of products that consumers are apparently buying in droves. I suppose my original post makes me sound like a corporate lackey, but the bigger point I was trying to make is that a corporation has no altruistic inclination to worry about society - the shedding of jobs by many corporations in many industries is self-evident of that fact.

The only entity that can over-ride the individual corporate motivations to profit at the expense of the greater good is our government. It's pretty obvious to me that one Party has fully sold out to corporations and the other one is either a Stockholm hostage, incapable of fighting for the greater good, or a silent, junior partner in the capitulation.
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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Responsible corporation, HA! Apple is responsible for the mistreatment and suicides
of dozens (that we know of) Chinese laborers. Let's see them take responsibility for that, k?
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
49. Should we hold all corporations responsible for suicides...or just Apple?
There are many, many suicides happening in China and they happen in factories and in rural communities....they just don't get the high profile exposure like Apple has had. As another poster on this thread notes, it may be because Apple is a little more open about its business practices than many corporations who also manufacture in China are. In terms of workers, Foxconn is the largest contract manufacturer in China...I wonder if they would also have the largest # of suicides?

The US has 11.1 per MM suicides/yr...China has 13.85/MM - doesn't seem to be a huge delta when one factors in total population, relative per capita wealth, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suici... (These figures actually seem pretty low to me - for both countries).

But I guess if your intent is to paint Apple as an "evil" corporation, this is a good as anything to use.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Depends, would they be another Alienware or a Compaq?
Most people don't realize there is a lot more out there then just the words - IBM/PC Compatible.
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randome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. Not one of the posters here...
...knew him personally so all you have to go on are what other people have said.

This is a worthless topic since it relies on belittling a man after his death.

The fact that he and his company made lots of money has nothing to do with any of it, either.

Most likely he was no saint but I'm guessing he wasn't a monster, either.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. LOL. "Everything looks bad when you *remember it*!" -H. Simpson. nt
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backwoodsbob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. not one poster here personally knew Bush
so any topic about him is a worthless topic?
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. Wouldn't really be PC would it.
Edited on Tue Oct-11-11 02:33 PM by dipsydoodle
:)
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HipChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. That's a very biased,bashing article from Gawker..they were in a very bitter legal dispute with Appl
so I'd take it with a pinch of salt
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. You're not disputing the abusive labor practices, though. nt
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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. Many here said it again and again. But MacHeads or whatever they call
themselves don't care when it comes to Apple products, only products from other hateful corporations.
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
18. About those Chinese workers
What would they be doing instead?

Apple's deal with Foxconn requires better working conditions than the norm in China...yes, factory conditions in China are so awful that the factory with anti-suicide nets is better.

So if they weren't working for Foxxconn (and thus Apple) those Chinese factory workers would have worse working conditions. In fact, the only reason we know about Foxconn's working conditions is Apple requires outside monitoring of working conditions.

Doesn't make Apple a corporate saint, but it also means they're not the devil.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Along the same lines, where will the slaves go? They're like *family*!
-Southern Planter, circa 1864.
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Not close to the same thing
But don't let that get in the way of your righteous indignation.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. It's precisely the same fucked up logic.
Our sweatshops aren't as bad as the really bad sweatshops. :puke:
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. No, it's placing the blame in the right place.
Edited on Tue Oct-11-11 05:28 PM by jeff47
Apple's deal helps workers. Not enough, but it helps.

China's policies hurts workers a lot more.

Complaining that Apple isn't doing enough doesn't fix the problem. In fact, convincing Apple to pull out of China entirely makes the situation worse for the relevant workers because they will revert to China's standards.

Complain all you want about bad working conditions, but complain at the people causing the problem.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
64. Actually, it's exactly the same logic slave owners used.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. omfg am I really hearing this?...
jesus f. christ.
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Ellipsis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. He's right.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. what is right is not taking billions on the backs of these people.
what would be right is to give them decent wages and conditions, fuck the huge profit and the fact the consumers back home may have to pay more for their little toys.

How do you feel about NAFTA? Do you really think all those crappy jobs in Mexico is really better for them? Those factory workers families who were once farmers who couldn't afford to keep the kids home because NAFTA allowed cheap U.S. food dumping in their market and how is a small farmer to compete with the likes of big Agri?

That is the reason labour is so cheap and jobs are taken away to the cheap and slave labour spots.

That is part of what OWS is talking about.
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Ellipsis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. He's still right.
Take a bite out of Clinton's ass... We ain't talking about NAFTA.

The reason labor is so cheap and jobs are taken away to the cheap and slave labor spots us because OUR society supported it in the past and present.


I would agree it's time to change.


You make Steve Jobs the target, because it's a convenient way for to exclude yourself from the guilt of your own complicity to the problem.




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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. my guilt as compared to Jobs'? what a cheap shot!
but if you want to play that math game, my 'guilt' would be about 0.00000142 of 1% because I happen to be in a trade where Macintosh's were part of the inventory. Maybe I should go back and slap my old boss around for that?

if this were a creepy fucker like a Koch bro you would be singing quite a different song. THAT is what I think annoys most people here that don't suck on Jobs toes.

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Ellipsis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. I would.
Look everywhere around you... what's not made in China? I'm just as guilty.


Suck on his toes, --- if he was a good looking women. I'd considerate it.

You might want to read my Re: to Devil Girl
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. What you should do depends on your goal.
If your goal is to improve the working conditions in Chinese factories, Apple should get some credit for making working conditions better. However, this wont' help off-shoring.

If your goal is to reverse off-shoring, then you should lobby for Apple to return to manufacturing in the US. However, this will hurt working conditions in Chinese factories. Apple's departure would result in the same workers operating under worse conditions.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. in other words, just carry on. Nothing can be done, let it trickle down.

I take it this means you support mega businesses that are larger than some countries - the same people that horde billions and make life suck for the most of the rest of us. Must be nice
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. No. Set priorities for yourself
Trying to do everything at once will result in incrementalism at best, nothing at worse.

Decide for yourself which is more important, and work towards that goal. The other side of the issue can be taken care of down the road.
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Ellipsis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Fox Conn has over 500,000 employees, that just blows my mind!
Chinese manufacturing... has been around for long time.

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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
24. in the long run his legacy will endure
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. This article describes most people in power. What makes Steve Jobs so special?
:nuke:
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Ellipsis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Because Steve Jobs was an arrogant asshole who happened to be a great visionary
Edited on Tue Oct-11-11 04:54 PM by Ellipsis
...at the right place at the right time.

His products cost justified themselves in three days back in the day and that was when workstation cost a hell of a lot more then they do now.

People confuse the up front costs, with the lifespan, preloaded software and more efficient support issues.

They are pissed because while all though it was a more open system, it was proprietary in content distribution and manufacturing.

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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
56. I'm sure working for Bill Gates is a barrel of fun too.
People had ample time to piss on Steve Jobs when he was alive.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
28. RWS has made similar statements and had been strongly criticized for it
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
35. The man is dead. Let's just let it rest. n/t
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pintobean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. So is Reagan
:shrug:
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
41. I've been saying this since Jobs's dead body was still warm.
Edited on Tue Oct-11-11 05:26 PM by Lucian
:banghead:
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
44. Geez, somebody doesn't like Apple.
Yes, he employed Chinese labor, so did every single other computer maker out there. So did every other phone manufacturer, MP3 maker, and every other electronics manufacturer of any sort. Your point?

Jobs created excellent products that people wanted. He built quality into each one of these products. Did they come at an increased cost, yes. But then again, these products lasted a long time.

But hey, keep on beating up on a dead man, you know what, he can't be hurt by your stupid kind of shit now.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
50. Steve Jobs was not responsible for trade policies that led to business decisions he had to make...
...in order to remain competitive.

I blame government.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. "he HAD to make??" Gullible?
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. same deal for the Koch bros?
and all the other gluttonous ones out there?
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Paladin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. Well Of COURSE You Blame Government, Slack.

Who would have guessed otherwise?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-11 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. He didn't have to make those business decisions, iPhone sells for 3-6x the cost to manufacture.
Edited on Tue Oct-11-11 08:09 PM by joshcryer
Most of the cost was in hard drives (made in Germany or some other western state), computer chips (again, made in other western states), displays (again made in western states for the most part, with machinery, no major labor). They then are assembled in the single worst electronics company on the planet. Apple could've easily opted for more expensive labor (say Taiwanese or South Korean labor, which isn't great, but no where near as shitty as FOXCONN). Total cost per iPhone would have gone up maybe $10-20 each. It is fucking sick, ridiculous, obscene that Apple decided to go with the cheapest labor available.

Meanwhile other mainboards sell for only a percentage of the cost to manufacture. A motherboard, for example, sells for 5-10% over the cost to manufacture.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #50
63. LOL. The Curly defense: Steve Jobs was merely a victim of circumstance!
What a pathetic argument! :hi:
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
66. well, you know what they say
de opulentiis nil nisi bonum dicendum est.

that's a famous latin adage fyi
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