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Fact check: The wealthy already pay more taxes.....

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a kennedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:22 PM
Original message
Fact check: The wealthy already pay more taxes.....
By Stephen Ohlemacher, Associated Press

WASHINGTON President Obama says he wants to make sure millionaires are taxed at higher rates than their secretaries. The data say they already are.

"Warren Buffett's secretary shouldn't pay a higher tax rate than Warren Buffett. There is no justification for it," Obama said as he announced his deficit-reduction plan this week. "It is wrong that in the United States of America, a teacher or a nurse or a construction worker who earns $50,000 should pay higher tax rates than somebody pulling in $50 million."
On average, the wealthiest people in America pay a lot more taxes than the middle class or the poor, according to private and government data. They pay at a higher rate, and as a group, they contribute a much larger share of the overall taxes collected by the federal government.

The 10% of households with the highest incomes pay more than half of all federal taxes. They pay more than 70% of federal income taxes, according to the Congressional Budget Office.
In his White House address on Monday, Obama called on Congress to increase taxes by $1.5 trillion as part of a 10-year deficit reduction package totaling more than $3 trillion. He proposed that Congress overhaul the tax code and impose what he called the "Buffett rule," named for the billionaire investor.
The rule says, "People making more than $1 million a year should not pay a smaller share of their income in taxes than middle-class families pay." Buffett wrote in a recent piece for The New York Times that the tax rate he paid last year was lower than that paid by any of the other 20 people in his office.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/story/2011-09...

Now how do I refute this???
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WingDinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Really stupid to make it absolute dollars and not percent.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Equally stupid to pretend that income taxes are the only taxes
and that the percentages don't add up for poorer folks.

The right wing has been doing these two things for years and it's high time we stopped letting them get away with it.
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MrDiaz Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. Other than income taxes
what taxes are you subject to that no one else is?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Nice strawman, slick
There are plenty of regressive taxes out there to choose among that affect the bottom 95% of Americans disproportionately as a percentage of their income.

Payroll taxes (which have been robbed since Reagan raised them six times as a back door income tax increase on workers with no deductions)

State taxes

Property taxes

Sales taxes

Usage, professional and licensing fees

All the niggling little taxes passed on phone service, utilities, pets and other things, all meant to take the pressure off the sainted rich and their income taxes.

Those are the big ones. As a percentage of income, every single one is regressive, taking a much bigger bite out of a $25,000/year income than they do out of a $250,000/year income.

This is why right wing tax whining about the poor, put upon rich people is such utter bullshit. There are plenty of taxes besides national income taxes and those taxes are all regressive, hitting subsistence income hard while, at the same dollar amount, barely registering against a plutocrat's income.

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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. No it's not stupid
Edited on Tue Sep-20-11 07:38 PM by Confusious
they can say...

look, I pay 10 grand in taxes, that guy only paid 100 dollars, so I pay more.

doesn't matter that the first guy made a million and they took the second guys last 100 bucks.

it's playing with numbers to make your side look good. And it works.

better to say it's a lie. Omission is still a lie.
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Broderick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's all media propaganda
Same old same old. The elite media is getting nervous about them having to actually pay their fair share. They are bought and paid for by big corporations anyway.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well...


:shrug:
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a kennedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Now this is perfect.....
thanks. :fistbump: :patriot:
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. Look at the percentage and not amount. people that make less than $106,800 pay 100% fica tax
people who make more money only pay up to that capped amount.
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benld74 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. Funny, Yahoo News ran the same tripe this morning as well,,,,,
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Riftaxe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. It's an Associated Press
article. So it will be widely distributed. I don't see anything that is not factual in it, what part do you consider tripe?
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itsrobert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. So, they have no argument against the proposed tax rule than
Edited on Tue Sep-20-11 02:29 PM by itsrobert
Since the rich already pay more, than the propose tax rule should have no effect on it.(wink, wink) So they have no argument against the new tax code.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Do the top 10% of houshold incomes have more than 70% of the total household wealth?
I'm curious as to whether the top 10% (who evidently pay 70% of household income taxes) have more or less than 70% of total household wealth.
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thelordofhell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. They own over 90% of the wealth
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Then they should pay over 90% of the tax share. Simple.
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thelordofhell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. I agree %1000
And remember, we're not even including these people corporations (per the Supreme Court). Maybe they should start paying their fair share.
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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. What their rate is and what they actually pay via deductions/loopholes etc ...
... are 2 different things.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. How about a big, "So, what?" Look back to a time before mammoth federal debt and you will find
federal income rates were double or triple what they are today. As a single mother in the 1970's, I averaged something like an effective federal income tax rate of 34%! No child nor child care credits either!
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. who benefits the most from the rigged system and living in the USofA? self serving wealthy people
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DrunkenBoat Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. Tell them the top 10% also have 73% of total US net worth (the bottom
Edited on Tue Sep-20-11 03:02 PM by DrunkenBoat
80% have 15%).


and show them these:








http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth....


Then tell them they can look at the raw data themselves & not rely on other people's analyses:

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=1...


As I read the data, Individuals making under $50K = 65% of returns, 22% of income.

I think median household income is between 40-50K.

So if the bottom half of the income distribution only gets 22% of the income, you see the problem.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
14. Look at the distribution of wealth since the Bush tax cuts
and you'll see how the rich are favored.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. The writer is purposely conflating rate with dollar amount.
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sam11111 Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. 94% truman rate on rich, 91%Ike rate 90%most of 1945-'68
"Those with 95% of the income should pay 95% of the taxes" - DUer.

As to wealth OTOH....estimates vary with 50 Trillion to 155 T seen so far. Enough to pay 15 T Natl Debt without touching Medicare etc. In fact plenty for FREE healthcare free college FAT ss , end all poverty etc.

Poverty should not exist in this land.

High estimate follows- polite input on other estimates invited---

Federal Reserve Statistical Release, Z.1, Flow of Funds Accounts of the United States

Table L.5 Total Liabilities and Its Relation to Total Financial Assets

(my comment - see bottom line, next to rightmost cell for current wealth of the US in billions. You will see 6 digits so that gives 3 digits worth of trillions - that is, over a hundred trillion. To be more precise, 154 trillion as of my writing this in Aug '11. Got that?)

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/Current/acces...
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MerryBlooms Donating Member (940 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. If this were true, would GE and others have paid federal tax
instead of receiving refunds?

I'm pretty sure someone is spinning stats to benefit their status... yeah, I'm shocked at yet another bs 'save the rich', article. The only question is, why is this crap continually posted on a supposedly progressive website.
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
18. And as a group of course they pay
Edited on Tue Sep-20-11 03:03 PM by EC
a higher Amount. But individually, they pay a lower percent since their income is based on interest on accounts (trust funds) and unearned income (stock).


The right just loves to lump them all togeather and say "see as a group they pay more of the share of all taxes than the other 90% combined. Well, they also OWN 90% of all cash, they should be paying 90% of the taxes, too. So now they are paying 70% of all taxes, that's still not enough.
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mercymechap Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. The Wealthy already pay more taxes
Of course, the more you make the more you pay, not rocket science. But what percent of your pay goes to taxes? The rich have loopholes, shelters not to mention a "lower" rate under capital gains - not really FAIR!
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sad sally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. According to the National Taxpayer Advocate, an independent watchdog
within the IRS, in all, the tax code is filled with a total of $1.1 trillion in credits, deductions and exemptions, an average of about $8,000 per taxpayer.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. Well that is what Progressive Taxation is all about.
They don't pay nearly enough for a prosperous America though.. Let History be our guide.. Check what the marginal rates were when America was it's most prosperous.. Hell even a decade ago we were ten times more prosperous than we currently are and were running surplus budgets....When was the last time Republicans ever did that?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
23. The top 1-percent rake in 21-percent of the income (2006).
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
24. The numbers work out
and going forward, they will rise. But only because the rest of us are getting poorer. Eventually the rich will pay 100% of the taxes and the 99 percent of the rest of us will be destitute.

If someone thinks that them paying 70 percent of the taxes already is bad, I suggest voting republican so they can be destitute. That way they won't have to pay taxes at all! What a deal!

You can prove anything with statistics.

Chances are most of the rich do not want a heavily armed population to revolt. They don't want to see their friends' heads on a spike. The republican politicians don't seem to understand that.
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sam11111 Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. BEST replies #18,19 so far Others good but these best IMO nt
Nt
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. You refute it by saying this:
"<------------ see this?

This is the most viral microscopic FUCK given for not only the sorrowful plight of the oh-so-butthurt wealthy job cremators, but also for news articles by right-wing shills and think tanks defending the oh-so-butthurt wealthy with their "leftist sour grapes" memes! Taxes are the price you pay for the society you live in, and in the case of the wealthy, don't sit there and tell me they created their wealth completely on their own with no tax-funded help! We don't buy the cowpiles here."
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
27. The wealthy use a lot more of the commons
Corporations use a great deal of the Pentagon budget. The U.S. Navy patrols the high seas throughout the world to protect commercial trade, at the cost of billions upon billions of dollars. Most of the time and resources of our court systems are taken up by business litigation, more than criminal matters. The rich, in whatever way they make and keep their wealth, are directly benefitted by having an educated and civil population, something that requires a school system. The fact that the rich were able to earn their wealth in the first place was only made possible because of the high level of education and sophisticated institutions of our civil society. Let them try to accumulate wealth in an impoverished country like Somalia. The rich should think well as to whether they want to be rich people living in a poor country. Do they really want to spend their lives behind the doors of gated communities, behind the ranks of paid security forces, while the rest of the country descends into poverty and chaos? If they pay more in taxes, well it's a good investment for them. It's that fact that has provided a stable society in which they can continue making and keeping money.
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IndyPragmatist Donating Member (556 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
28. Wealth versus income
The top 10% of income earners do pay a higher percentage of the tax receipts than they earn in income. There is no way around this...it's fact. The OECD has numerous reports that back that up. The problem is the wealth. These people control a ridiculous amount of the wealth and are not doing anything with it to help the nation. If these people were actually investing their money in people instead of finance, we really wouldn't have a lot of the problems we have today.

The wealthy are job creators....when they want to be. Except they rarely want to be. With capital gains taxes the way they are and the ability to make ridiculous amounts of money off of speculation, you don't have to create any jobs to make money. This is the problem.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. How does an investor invest in people?
Buying shares in a company does not create jobs. People wanting to buy that company's products leads to more jobs.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
29. The Liberal Media at MSNBC is pushing the same line today.
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Shandris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
32. Point out that 'a higher rate'...
...is not a real-dollar determinant. The RATE referred to in the first paragraph is NOT a conglomerate of a specific tax -- it's just what it says it is. The rate at which she is taxed. It doesn't say the rate at which her INCOME is taxed, or her GAINS are taxed, it says the rate SHE is taxed. And clearly, she pays a substantially larger RATE of her total wealth in taxes than Mr. Buffett does -- he even said so himself.

It's word manipulation at its' finest.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
35. Start with the fact that the top tax rate is less than half of what it was 30 years ago...
Edited on Tue Sep-20-11 05:12 PM by tjwash
...so of course those jobs they keep saying that those cuts will create must be coming along and will be here any day now. If not tomorrow, Friday for sure. ;-)

Of course they should be taxed at a higher rate.

No one succeeds in business (or whatever their venture is) entirely of their own doing, and I don't give one flying fuck at a rolling doughnut what some randroid spouts to the contrary. These people have taken advantage of, and depended upon, opportunity, luck, infrastructure, a well educated populace, and the public safety brought forth by a thriving and well funded public works, military, and civil service sector.

Without that, they are absolutely NOWHERE. This whole myth of the entirely self-made millionaire is a huge line of bullshit, as it implies that anyone who is "good enough" will inevitably succeed and that failure is a matter of laziness or ineptitude. The fact is...the more you succeed the more you owe our society as a whole.

No one achieves anything in a vacuum.
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Gothmog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-11 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
39. This fact checking has been debunked
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