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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:01 PM
Original message
Armed Arizona man nearly shot the person who had just disarmed Loughner
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41018893/ns/slatecom /

Armed Giffords hero nearly shot wrong man

Joe Zamudio rushed to the scene and saw a man with a gun but he wasn't the shooter


By William Saletan

Slate.com Slate.com

updated 1/11/2011 9:39:33 AM ET 2011-01-11T14:39:33

Does the Tucson massacre justify tighter gun control? Don't be silly. Second-Amendment advocates never look at mass shootings that way. For every nut job wreaking mayhem with a semiautomatic weapon, there's a citizen with a firearm who could have stopped him. Look at the 1991 slaughter in Killeen, Texas, where 23 people died in a restaurant while a patron's handgun, thanks to a dumb law, was left outside in her car. Look at the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre, where 32 people died because under the university's nave policy, nobody in the invaded classrooms was allowed to carry a firearm. Guns save lives. So the argument goes. snip

The new poster boy for this agenda is Joe Zamudio, a hero in the Tucson incident. Zamudio was in a nearby drug store when the shooting began, and he was armed. He ran to the scene and helped subdue the killer. Television interviewers are celebrating his courage, and pro-gun blogs are touting his equipment. "Bystander Says Carrying Gun Prompted Him to Help," says the headline in the Wall Street Journal.

But before we embrace Zamudio's brave intervention as proof of the value of being armed, let's hear the whole story. "I came out of that store, I clicked the safety off, and I was ready," he explained on Fox and Friends. "I had my hand on my gun. I had it in my jacket pocket here. And I came around the corner like this." Zamudio demonstrated how his shooting hand was wrapped around the weapon, poised to draw and fire. As he rounded the corner, he saw a man holding a gun. "And that's who I at first thought was the shooter," Zamudio recalled. "I told him to 'Drop it, drop it!'"

But the man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. "Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess," the interviewer pointed out.

Zamudio agreed:

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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. And he's the perfect example of a responsible gun owner
He didn't shoot first, ask questions later.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. link?
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Pancho Sanza Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. The only link to my opinion is my post.
Not sure what else you think I could produce. Do you think I was wrong? I may be new here but I've been reading long enough to know what I see is accurately reflected in my post.
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. I think that is a little over the top
there would have been all kinds of "AHA! seee?" type bullshit, but orgasm is a bit much

the guy reacted appropriately and he probably feels that gut feeling when you almost fuck up a close call, but get it right after all.
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Pancho Sanza Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Well, I'm pretty old and I've seen a lot of orgasms that seemed awfully spontaneous
and not just my own. :D :rofl:


:D
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. He used restraint and did not shot the wrong person. This is a good thing.


Isn't it?
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. As someone else mentioned, he had a textbook response. Vid of him talking about it here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

5:05 in is where he says that he almost shot the wrong guy.

Thank heavens for his level head amongst the chaos!

He should really consider law enforcement. We need more like him on the beat.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yeah, I don't see what you might consider so bad about this guy's actions.
:shrug:

PB
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. If everyone were armed, it could have started a chain reaction that wiped out human life!
That is, of course, sarcasm.

Seriously though, having everyone carrying around weapons all the time seems like a good way to increase the risks of unintended shootings.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. I was Wondering When This Story Would Be Posted
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 07:17 PM by fascisthunter
perfect example of why guns are better off in the hands of the cops when shit like this goes down. We don't need a John Wayne... we need real people who serve the public as a whole.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. A cop could just as easily have "nearly shot" the same person under the same circumstances
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 07:41 PM by slackmaster
The only real difference is that if a cop HAD shot the wrong person, he'd be immune from prosecution.

An "ordinary citizen" shooting the wrong person would end up in a world of legal trouble.

Major logic fail, fascisthunter.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
46. A cop WOULD HAVE shot him.
Edited on Fri Jan-14-11 10:59 AM by Xithras
No police officer, suddenly finding himself confronted with an armed person at an active shooting site, is simply going to order him to drop it. That's why they taught us to drop our guns BEFORE the police enter the room in my CCW training course. Being "the guy with the gun", as the cops swarm in and see bodies everywhere, will get you a serious case of the "deads".

It is a Hollywood myth that the police have to order you to drop the gun. In an active shooting situation, the police can legally shoot you dead without a word if they adjudge you to be an imminent threat to themselves or to the other people in the immediate area.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. This kid acted more level headed than MANY cops out on the street.
Scroll up and watch his interview with Ed about it. He did the entire CCW community proud in his reactions to the chaos.

Noting - I am gun control advocate.
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Pancho Sanza Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. John Wayne never existed. Few cops are any more qualified than the average
permitted civilian to evaluate and/or act on this kind of emergency regardless of what you've seen on teevee.
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:01 PM
Original message
Oh brother..........
This is getting good. :rofl:
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Pancho Sanza Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
26. I am so impressed by your cryptic response, I can't figure out whether I should
shit or go blind.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
27. After all...
they really are the only ones professional enough...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmRN00KbCr8

:eyes:

Update on the "professional" jack ass...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
37. yeah... I'll Take a Cop who was Trained over you or any other Poster Any Day
Edited on Fri Jan-14-11 08:12 AM by fascisthunter
cograts on your gun culture. Reap what you all sow.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. You mean the same cops...
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 08:02 PM by -..__...
who shoot (and when I post "shoot", I mean "SHOOT"... as in a full mag dump from multiple officers), people who are reaching for or 'wielding' a cell phone, wallet or some other non-threatening item?

Those well trained and calm headed cops?

LOL!!

Try again.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
34. And if he HAD shot the wrong guy...
And if he HAd shot the wrong guy, You wouldnt say this:

"perfect example of why guns are better off in the hands of the cops when shit like this goes down. We don't need a John Wayne... we need real people who serve the public as a whole."


:eyes:

Must be really nice to have it both ways.



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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. Tell that to this dead cop's family
An off-duty policeman was killed by a fellow officer last night in a horrifying case of mistaken identity.

Now New York police have launched a race investigation after Omar J Edwards

He was spotted by other officers in an unmarked car, who, thinking that Edwards was the criminal, immediately gave pursuit.
The officers yelled: ' Police! Stop! Drop it!' - and Edwards turned towards them, the gun still in his hand.

Commissioner Kelly said one of the officers - who is white - leapt from the car and fired six shots, hitting Edwards in the arm and chest.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-11895...


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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
40. how would a cop handle this situation?
please do tell.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. "nearly shot" == "didn't shoot"
:eyes:
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. He did not "nearly shoot the wrong man"
How many shots did he fire before he realized he was shooting at the wrong person? Oh, that's right: zero.

Of course he's going to have the safety off and his hands on the gun, ready to draw and fire. That's what you're supposed to do if you're going into that type of situation. The rights-hating, anti-gun zealots are trying to spin this story into something it isn't.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. In his own words, he "almost shot" the wrong guy
The guy who subdued the shooter was holding the gun when he came on the scene.

Check the video linked above where he tells Ed Schultz that he clicked his safety off when he left the Walgreens and saw the scene. At 5:05 he talks about how he almost shot the wrong guy.

Kid was prepared to defend his community, but was level headed enough to survey the scene amongst all the chaos before reacting.

It could have been much, much worse.
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Pancho Sanza Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Anything that happens, anywhere and any time in the whole world
could have been "worse". That's a silly cop-out and it's one hundred percent immaterial and meaningless.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. It didn't happen this time, but what about
the next time? If I lived in Arizona, I would be hesitant to even go shopping or to the bank if there was a possibility that an armed hold up guy, for instance, could start a wild west shoot out from concerned and armed civilians.
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Pancho Sanza Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Actually, that's probably the safest approach as we learned from G.W. Bush:
if there's any chance somebody might do something bad in the future, we should take measures to render them unable (or dead)...the Bush Doctrine. Hell, just put everyone in jail, that'll put a stop to armed agression.
Sounds good to me.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Why would you have to put everyone in jail?
It just seems we shouldn't have armed civilians in populated areas that aren't rural. It's a matter of common sense.
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fifthoffive Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
18. Hmm
So he was armed, but it didn't do any good, could have done a lot of harm, and an unarmed man (men?) stopped the shooter.

Tell me again why everyone needs to be armed.
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Pancho Sanza Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I've asked a hundred people, no answer, I guess I'll ask you: Who said everyone
needs to be armed? I'll be eternally grateful if you can just tell me who that idiot is. Thanks!
:D
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. I for one have no business being armed. I can't slam a door without breaking a fingernail.
Just call me Grace.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Okay, Grace ;)
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Heh
:P
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. everyone does NOT need to be armed
who advocates that?
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Pancho Sanza Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Nobody advocates it, it's one of the most elegant examples of "straw man"
in all of American discourse.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
32. A very responsible gun owner. According to some on DU he was just looking to blast someone and
would have made the situation worse.

Police mistakenly shoot the wrong person 11x as often as CCW holders do.
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gatorboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
43. I don't get the comparison here.
Of course a cop is more prone to mistakenly shoot someone. In that line of work there are many more opportunities for that sort of thing to happen.
Are you saying your average CCW holder constantly gets in the same situations?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
33. Thank god the cops didn't show up. Police shoot wrong person 11x as often as conceal carry holders.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
36. Yeah I saw that on CNN.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
38. "Armed Arizona man nearly shot the person who had just disarmed Loughner"
Except he didn't.
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
39. here is a question
how would a veteran police officer handle this situation. Lets say this guy was replaced by a cop. What do you think his response would be? Well if he handled the situation "perfectly" it would probably play out the same way. The cop would come out of the store with his gun drawn, run to the person with the gun and point it at them while ordering them to "drop the gun and get on the ground". So tell me where this young man went so wrong?

This is a non-issue, no shots were fired, no one hurt from his actions. He should only be commended for professional manner in which he handled this situation. We need more citizens like him
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rbixby Donating Member (716 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
41. I don't see how the fact that he had a gun
made any difference at all in this case. His gun didn't help the situation at all, it very nearly made it end with another innocent person being killed.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. I see that as the point --
This man was (thankfully) cool-headed -- the next armed person who sees a "gunman" may not be and innocents killed as a result. :(
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rbixby Donating Member (716 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. That's the thing...
the fact that he had a gun was really irrelevant in this instance.
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
42. Or one could surmise the reason he didn't shoot, was because shooting a human being
is different than shooting a paper target or an animal. Maybe he just didn't have the wherewithal to shoot another human being (and I'm not insinuating that's a bad thing, cause it's not).

Either way, thank goodness he didn't pull the trigger on his weapon.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
44. it's an interesting story, but the guy loves the attention way too much
I've seen him on TV quite a bit, starting right after the shooting, and he comes across as someone that does a lot of reaching out to the media. No one has to drag anything out of him.
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gatorboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
45. "Bystander Says Carrying Gun Prompted Him to Help" That's a pretty horrible headline.
I hope they don't mean that he would have been a coward otherwise. There certainly were people there willing to help that were not armed.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Yes, a bunch of unarmed people --
took down the shooter without a shot fired on their part. Bunch of pussies, if you ask me.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. In his defense of the CCW holder
Edited on Fri Jan-14-11 12:09 PM by RamboLiberal
The bystanders who did help were in the midst of the shooting. They faced a grim choice if they even had a chance, try to find cover, feign being down & shot, running, or tackling the gunman when they had a chance which his gun jamming did.

The CCW holder heard the gunshots from inside a store. That he was carrying a firearm he thought he had a chance at least to help.

The smart thing for anyone not having a firearm if you hear gunshots and you are not in same area as the gunman is not to run towards that sound but to take cover till at least you know the gunman is not a factor anymore.

Did anyone at Virginia Tech not armed run towards Cho? No, they tried to barricade their classrooms, escape out windows or otherwise, etc.

Did even the police at Columbine who were armed run into Columbine High School initially? Remember there was one police officer outsidee who exchanged shots with the shooters. Even he didn't run in to the school to save lives.

Who here unarmed hearing shots outside the building would run out to help while you still hear shooting? Even armed I would probably not.

Most mass shootings no one even gets the chance to jump the gunman. Ones I can remember besides this one is the Long Island railroad and this one. And so far most mass shootings no one else has been armed that were in the midst of the shootings that I can remember offhand.

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
51. This tells me that anyone who owns a gun should take a gun safety class
Chances are, it was that info that kept him from shooting the wrong guy
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. I think everyone should take a self-defense class, regardless of whether or not they own a gun
Training is a good thing.
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