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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 07:27 AM
Original message
Libyan Revolution Week 30 part 4
Links to sites with updates: AJE Libya Live Blog AJE Twitter Dashboard The Guardian Reuters Telegraph feb17.info Libya Alhurra (live video webcast from Benghazi) Libya Alhurra archives and updates Benghazi Free Radio, in Arabic (may have translators present at times) Tribute FM (English broadcast from Benghazi) libyafeb17.com

Twitter links: Ayman Mohyeldin, with AJE Ben Wedeman, with CNN tripolitanian, a Libyan from Tripoli Brian Conley, reporter in Libya FreeLibyanYouth, Libyan advocate LibyaFeb17.com twitter account ChangeInLibya, Libyan advocate Sofyan Amry (arrived in Benghazi recently) KiloFoot (general Arab Spring news aggregation)

Useful links: feb17voices Current time in Libya Prayer times in Libya

Week 30 part 3 here.

The Oppressive Laws of Gaddafi's Libya
The government grants the right of association to official institutions by virtue of Law 71 of 1972, which regulates associational activity in Libya. Law 20 of 1991 on the Promotion of Freedom sanctions the death penalty for anyone whose continued existence would lead to the disintegration of Libyan society. The Code of Honor of March 1997 institutes a system of collective punishment for wrongdoing, whereby families, towns and municipalities are held responsible for the actions of individuals in their midst and are subject to punishment such as the dissolution of the local People's Congress or the denial of government services, including utilities, water, infrastructure projects. Associations engaging in political activity are illegal in Libya. Further, political activity is defined by Articles 2 and 3 of Law 71 of 1972 as any activity based on a political ideology contrary to the principles of the Al-Fateh Revolution of September 1, 1969. The Law on Publications, No. 76 of 1972, as modified by Law 120 of 1972 and Law 75 of 1973, govern the operation of the press, reserving all rights to publish.


This is what the Libyan freedom fighters are fighting against. Each and every one, when they went into this, knew that it was all or nothing, they had no choice but to fight. For their very survival.

Marching On in Libya, for the revolutionaries!


Libyans flash the victory sign in front of a rebel Libya flag during a celebration rally at Martyrs' square in Tripoli

Photo: Reuters


Day 209 September 14

Civilians flee pro-Gaddafi town ahead of assault
Libyan fighters handed out free petrol to help hundreds of civilians flee a desert town held by Muammar Gaddafi's forces ahead of an onslaught aimed at capturing one of the ousted ruler's last bastions.
Libya's new rulers to probe war crimes allegations
LIBYA's new rulers promised to investigate allegations of "serious abuses" including war crimes as their position was consolidated when the World Bank recognised them as the official government.
Tripoli's new normal - bickering politicians
Less than a month after Muammar Gaddafi's fall, Tripoli is bustling. Shoppers throng markets. Banks are open. Electricity and water are back, most of the time. Out in the desert, some oil flows.
Freedoms Flourish On Walls Across Tripoli
Caricatures of the ousted Gadhafi have sprung up all over Tripoli. This image of Gadhafi in chains is on a wall
in the capital's Fashlum neighborhood.

Freed of Gadhafi, Libyans expect post-war boom
Airlines are readying their return to Libya, ports largely shuttered during the fighting are receiving cargos and foreign oil companies that had fled the country's civil war are making tentative steps back.
Senior U.S. diplomat holds talks in Tripoli
Libya's new interim leader met the most senior U.S. official to visit Tripoli since the fall of Muammar Gaddafi, though details of Wednesday's talks were not immediately available.
Sky News Tracks Down 'Abducted' Girl In Tripoli
Sky News has tracked down a young woman who was taken from England by her Libyan father without her mother's consent 19 years ago.
HRW: Libya: Mass Grave Yields 34 Bodies
Thirty-four bodies exhumed from a mass grave near the town of al-Qawalish in western Libya seem to be those of men detained by pro-Gaddafi forces in early June 2011, Human Rights Watch said today.
Envoy vows US will not meddle in post-Kadhafi Libya
Senior US State Department official Jeffrey Feltman said after talks in Tripoli on Wednesday that Washington respected the right of Libyans to decide their own future after the ouster of Moamer Kadhafi.
Burkina Faso and Niger Back Gaddafi's Victims
There is good news in the world of international justice: Burkina Faso and Niger have said unequivocally that they will not give safe haven to former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi - who may be seeking a new place to call home. The two governments cited the outstanding warrant issued for him by the International Criminal Court (ICC) for crimes committed against the Libyan people.
THE BATTLE FOR LIBYA: Killings, Disappearances and Torture (PDF)
Inspired and emboldened by anti-government protests sweeping across the Middle East and North Africa region, Libyans called for 17 February 2011 the fifth anniversary of a brutal crackdown on a public protest in Benghazi to be their Day of Rage against Colonel Muammar al-Gaddafis four-decade long repressive rule.
Doctor's song of freedom inspires Libyans
We Will Stay Here, a ballad by Adel Al Mshiti, a 38-year-old doctor, has dominated the Libyan airwaves for the past six months. It's played at every demonstration, in every taxi and every shop in Libya's recently liberated capital. "We will stay here," go the song's lyrics, "until the pain goes away." "We will live here, the melody will sweeten," urging Libyans to stay in the country and endure the oppressive conditions under dictator Moammar Gadhafi. You may view the song on YouTube here.
Libya's Freedom Fighters: How They Won
Now that Tripoli is more or less secure, more stories are coming out that help us understand how the Libyan freedom fighters were able to achieve such a rapid victory over Mummar Qaddafi in his capital of 42 years. I want to use today's diary to share with you some of the more enlightening material I have found.


Day 210 September 15

NATO balks at Libya nation-building, policing
NATO, which has been bogged down for nearly 10 years in Afghanistan and more than 12 in Kosovo, is desperately seeking a mission it can end, quickly, cleanly and for good.
UK, French leaders visit Libya; peace still far off
The French and British leaders will visit Libya on Thursday to congratulate the new rulers they helped install, but families fleeing besieged bastions of ousted strongman Muammar Gaddafi are a reminder that peace is still far off.
Sky News Revisits Newly-Liberated Tripoli Suburb
Souk al Juma is a Tripoli suburb which formed part of the backbone of the underground opposition - a place where Colonel Gaddafi tried to brutally suppress the uprising.
U.S. not concerned that extremists will dominate in Libya
Based on our discussions with Libyans so far, we aren't concerned that one group is going to be able to dominate the aftermath of what has been a shared struggle by the Libyan people.
Libya watching fools of Allah
Can we rule out a takeover by the Islamists in Libya? Undoubtedly meet the revolutionaries. "These are young people, civilians, who launched this movement with peaceful demonstrations. No one will steal your revolution. If the Islamists ever arrive at the head of the country, we get rid of it as we got rid of Qaddafi," Abdul ensures Oubashit, a doctor of 29 years back to Tripoli after caring for five months, the rebels at the border Tunisia.



Click here for updated map. The size of the circles show population, the color represents control, red for FFs, green for tyrants. Animated gif is retired.


A topic on the women of the revolution, dispels myths about the treatment of women in Benghazi.

Videos to bring the Libyan Revolution into context
The Battle of Benghazi. BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1, and Part 2. Video of the convoy sent to take Benghazi, taken from a dead soliders cell phone (shows how massive the operation was). Arab Awakening: Libya: Through the Fire. Tea of Freedom Song. Libya: Part 2 - The Uprising Benghazi - Backbone of the Libyan revolution


March 10 7:28pm Saif al Islam Gaddafi says "the time has come for full-scale military action" against Libyan rebels. He goes on to say that Libyan forces loyal to his family "will never surrender, even if western powers intervene".


As of this week the National Trasitional Council has been formally recognized by 83 countries. France (March 10), Qatar (March 28), Maldives (April 3), Italy (April 4), Kuwait (April 13), The Gambia (April 22), Jordan (April 24), Sengal (April 28), The United Kingdom (June 4), Spain (June 8), Australia (June 9), UAE (June 12), Germany (June 13), Canada (June 14), Panama (June 14), Austria (June 18), Latvia (June 20), Denmark (June 22), Bulgaria (June 28), Croatia (June 28), Turkey (July 3), Poland (July 9), Netherlands (July 13), Belgium (July 13), Luxembourg (July 13), United States (July 15), Japan (July 15), Albania (July 18), Slovenia (July 20), Montenegro (July 21), Portugal (July 28), Botswana (August 11), Gabon (August 12), Tunisia (August 20), New Zealand (August 22), Egypt (August 22), Jordan (August 22), Morocco (August 22), Colombia (August 22), Oman (August 23), Bahrain (August 23), Nigeria, Malta (August 23), Iraq (August 23), Greece (August 23), Norway (August 23), Lebanon (August 23), South Korea (August 24), Sudan (August 24), Hungary (August 24), Chad (August 24), Ethipia (August 24), Burkina Faso (August 24), Colombia (August 25), Serbia (August 25), Bosnia andHerzegovina (August 25), Mongolia (August 25), Djibouti (August 25), Cote d'Ivoire (August 25), Macedonia (August 25), Cyprus (August 26), Malaysia (August 26), Rwanda (August 26), Estonia (August 26), Benin (August 26), Niger (August 27), Togo (August 27), Guinea (August 28), Czech Republic (August 29), Philippines (August 30), Slovakia (August 30), Russia (September 1), Finland (September 1), Romania (September 1), Ukraine (September 1), Azerbaijan (September 2), Botswana (September 2), Kazakhstan (September 5), Central African Republic (September 5), Comoros (September 6), Seychelles (September 7), Ghana (September 9).

"One month ago (Western countries) were sooo nice, so nice like pussycats," Saif says in a contemptuous sing-song tone."Now they want to be really aggressive like tigers. (But) soon they will come back, and cut oil deals, contracts. We know this game." - Saif Gaddafi


(Yeah, Saif, as if you weren't "cutting oil deals, contracts" with western states. Who are the 'tigers' now? Bombing your own people.)

The first free public opinion poll ever conducted in Libya reveals clues to Eastern Libyan sentiments
* 98 percent of the respondents do not support the division of Libya as a part of the political solution for the current conflict with the Gaddafi regime. Around 95 percent also don't see any role for Gaddafi or his sons in a transitional period, and think it is impossible to implement any political reform in Libya if Gaddafi or one of his sons stays in power

* Around 96 percent of those polled, believe that the 17th of February revolution can consolidate the national unity of Libya and support the model of a democratic Libya based on a constitution which respects human rights

* Al-Qaeda has not played any role in the 17th of February revolution, say 94 percent of the Eastern Libyans, and 91 percent thinks it's impossible for Al-Qaeda to play any political role in the new Libya

* The National Transitional Council is seen by 92 percent of those surveyed as "expressing the views and wishes of Libyans for change"


This is equivalent to 17% the entire population of Libya, doing the numbers very conservatively.


A Legal War: The United Nations Participation Act and Libya
The above link is to an overview of why Obama's implementation of the NFZ and R2P is perfectly legal under the law. I will not post it entirely here, however, all objections come down to the misinformed position that Obama, by using forces in Libya, was invoking Article 43 of the United Nations. This is wrong. Obama invoked Article 42, which does not require congressional approval to implement. Proof of this is that Article 43 has never been used.

It goes like this: The US law (Title 22, Chap. 7, Subchap. XIV 287d) grants the President the right to invoke UN Article 42 without authorization, the War Powers Act (Title 50, Chap. 33 1541) grants the President permission to act without authorization under "specific statutory authorization" which, by definition, is what 287d does. 1543 of the War Powers Act requires the President to report to Congress, which he did. One can argue all day and night about the legality of the War Powers Act, doesn't change the fact that under the law as it is written, the President acted within the law.






Mohammed Nabbous, killed by Gaddafi's forces while trying to report on the massacre in Benghazi

"I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to lose the battle" -Mohammed Nabbous, a month ago when all this began


I'm struggling to come up with something to say about this man. I was not aware of the Libyan uprising until I saw Mo's first report, begging for help, posted here on DU. I was stricken. Here was a man giving everything he had to explain a situation that clearly terrified him, I would not call him a coward in that moment, but you could see the fear in his eyes, and desperation in his voice. For 30 days Nabbous would spend many hours covering the uprising in Benghazi. For many nights I would go to sleep with the webcast of Benghazi live on my computer screen, looking to it occasionally to be sure it was still 'there.' Mo treated the chat room as if we were his friends, and in some way, we were. I never signed up to LiveStream to thank him for all his work and it seems somewhat shallow to do so now, given that I was a lurker for so long. Ever since I took over posting these threads "Libya Alhurra" has been linked as a source of information. It wasn't until last night, when I posted, and twitter posted on Mo's adventures out into Benghazi to try to determine the truth of the situation, that Mo's webchannel became a hit, over 2000 people were watching him stream live. This was curious to him because he'd done many reports like this in the past but he appeared somewhat bemused that the view count exploded as it did. Last night Mo became a star. This is a man who first started out with a webcast replete with fear and desperation finally overcoming that aspect of himself and losing that fear, to become someone who was a fighter for the resistance just as much as those who held the guns. Reporting on the front lines of Benghazi became his final act, and for that he should never, ever be forgotten. I'm so sorry Mo that I never got to know you better.

Arab Awakening: Libya: Through the Fire is a documentary about Mo's last days, please watch it.

Mo's first report, which many of you may remember, begging for help.

Mo leaves behind a wife and a newborn child she had this to say about the No Fly Zone and R2P UN resolution:

We started this in a pure way, but he turned it bloody. Thousands of our men, women, and children have died. We just wanted our freedom, that's all we wanted, we didn't want power. Before, we could not do a single thing if it was not the way he wanted it. All we wanted was freedom. All we wanted was to be free. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up. We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Libya got liberated by anybody else. If NATO didn't start moving when they did, I assure you, I assure you, half of Benghazi if not more would have been killed. If they stop helping us, we are going to be all killed because he has no mercy anymore.


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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. Libyan Revolution Day 210 updates below, current time in Libya, 2:28pm Thursday, September 15
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. Mustafa Abdul Jalil and the Great Sharia Divide
Mustafa Abdul Jalil and the Great Sharia Divide
Yet, all of this begs two questions: why do Muslims wantShariah? And why do western governments oppose it so much? Especially when they are happy to support repression, authoritarian rule and undemocratic regimes .

The answer lies in an accurate understanding of Shariah - not the caricatures and misrepresentations peddled as part of war on terror propaganda.

...

It means guaranteeing food, shelter and clothing for all citizens. It means public utilities energy sources, water etc are public property. It means people can own private property and trade for profits provided they pay their zakat. It means land laws such that unused land is confiscated and reallocated to someone that will make that land productive. It means a ban on interest, so ending the debt that cripples the poor of the world.

...

Yet a state that put the Shariah above interests of foreign powers, rich elites, and put much sought after resources in the hands of the public (not to be sold off to multinational corporations) is not a state that is in the interests of capitalist states that seek to enforce their dominance and harness resources for themselves and also challenges the ideological foundations that currently dominate the world. The very fact that it crosses the nation state boundaries established by the Sykes-Picot accord, means that it not only sits outside the Westphalian norm it would also pool resources so making a unified Muslim world a credible global player.


Fascinating take.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. AJELive tweets on Cameron / Sarkozy visit:
Edited on Thu Sep-15-11 07:41 AM by joshcryer
http://twitter.com/#!/AJELive

AJELive AJELive
Sarkozy on #Libya: There is no place where Gaddafi and his family can escape from punishment
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Cameron on #Libya: Gaddafi and family should all give themselves up and face justice
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Cameron on #Libya: "The hardest bit of work is still to come."
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Cameron on #Libya: The message to Gaddafi and his loyalists is that it's over. Forget it. Give up.
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Cameron on #Libya: I think people have underestimated the NTC.
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Sarkozy on #Libya: I hope that Syria will one day be a free country.
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Sarkozy on #Libya: I really hope that the Syrian people have the same chance that the Libyan people now have.
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Sarkozy on #Libya: Gaddafi has embezzled the Libyan people.
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Sarkozy on #Libya: Our objective was to help civilian victims and help mitigate collateral damage.
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Sarkozy on #Libya: We did what we did because we felt it was the right thing to do
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Sarkozy on #Libya: There's no agreement made behind closed doors concerning Libya's wealth. There is no preferential treatment for us.
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Sarkozy on #Libya: France will stand side-by-side with Libya through its reconstruction
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Sarkozy on #Libya: We are here to help create peace, democracy and economic development
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Cameron on #Libya: This is your revolution. This is not over. Britain will help in the hunt for Gaddafi.
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Cameron on #Libya: Impressed what I've seen in Libya.
1 hour ago

AJELive AJELive
Cameron on #Libya: NTC proved skeptics wrong. Be generous and merciful and keep proving skeptics wrong.
1 hour ago

edit: sorry but I don't have time to give individual links for each tweet... :/
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. 'Thank you, Cameron, thank you, Sarkozy, thank you, Obama'
Matthew Weaver and Paul Owen posted on The Guardian's Live Blog in advance of the Cameron/Sarkozy press conference in Tripoli:


"In my three weeks here, people have often come up to me unprompted and said: 'Thank you, Cameron, thank you, Sarkozy, thank you, Obama," David Smith reports from Tripoli. In a telephone call on (a) crackly line David said:



There is still a lot of goodwill towards the Nato allies. In Tripoli there will be an extremely warm reception (for David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy). (But) a guarding against any sense of "mission accomplished". Of course fighting goes on in some Gaddafi strongholds. (But) This will be something of a victory lap. The arrival of these senior figures will be seen as yet another step towards normality.

...


There are no chances being taken with security, there are airport style metal detectors, the hotel is in lockdown, many surrounding rounds have been closed. They are clearly conscious of the security risk ...

It is an important measure of the apparent return to normality in Tripoli that this visit is happening at all. When you drive through Tripoli there are fewer and fewer military checkpoints every day. There is more and more traffic and more and more shops open. You can walk very late at night and feel safer than you would in many parts of London or New York. There hasn't been any sign of an insurgency.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...

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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
5. 'This is a big day for the new Libya and for the National Transitional Council'
More on the Sarkozy/Cameron visit from The Guardian's David Smith:


"It was a self confident and bullish performance by David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy," David Smith reports from Tripoli:



What was really striking was the tone of looking forward. Nicolas Sarkozy said flying over Tripoli and meeting young Libyans had made him think of Syria. He said he dedicated this visit to young Syrians, who are hoping for a similar case of freedom one day. David Cameron also talked about the prospect of the Arab spring turning into an Arab summer, and how Libya could set an example to other countries. There was a self-confidence, almost an expansionist tone and that...has the potential for a knock-on effect elsewhere.

Despite the triumphalist aspects, they were careful to retain some humility and say this is not over. David Cameron said very bluntly the message to Gaddafi: give yourself up, it's over. It's time for the mercenaries to go down.

There was confusion on the role Nato is playing in the hunt for Gaddafi. Officially British and French representatives say (they are) not (involved). Libyans say that as well. And yet today David Cameron said "we are helping with that" (the hunt for Gaddafi). It is a badly kept secret that Nato is providing some intelligence, even though they won't say what.

This is a big day for the new Libya and for the National Transitional Council and so far it is going well and they are pleased. They are off to Benghazi and I would expect another warm reaction there.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
6. UK, French leaders give strong support to Libya

By RYAN LUCAS - Associated Press | AP 46 mins ago


TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) British Prime Minister David Cameron and French President Nicolas Sarkozy gave Libya's new rulers strong support during a landmark visit to Tripoli on Thursday, vowing to release billions of dollars more in frozen assets and to push ahead with NATO strikes against Moammar Gadhafi's last strongholds.

...

The two were the first world leaders to travel to Tripoli since revolutionary forces, backed by NATO airstrikes, swept into the capital and forced Gadhafi into hiding. The visit aimed to give a significant boost to the National Transitional Council, the body of former rebels that is widely recognized as the new leadership but faces a major struggle in establishing its authority.

At a press conference alongside NTC chief Mustafa Abdul-Jalil and the NTC's prime minister Mahmoud Jibril, Cameron and Sarkozy both expressed their backing for the council. Cameron said he would push for the release to the NTC of billions of dollars in Libyan assets that had been frozen to punish Gadhafi's regime. To that end, he announced Britain would introduce a draft resolution to the U.N. Security Council on Friday authorizing the release of all Libyan assets.

Cameron also pledged the NATO mission would continue as Gadhafi loyalists are still battling revolutionary forces on three fronts in central and southern Libya. "There are still parts of Libya under Gadhafi's control, Gadhafi is still at large, and we must make sure this work is completed," he said.

He called on all the holdouts to stop fighting.

...


http://news.yahoo.com/uk-french-leaders-strong-support-...




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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
7. Free Libya fighters inching steadily towards Sirte
Reporting from Ajdabiya, Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid said:



The fighters have been steadily, but slowly, inching towards Sirte. ... You get the feeling that effectively they're putting Sirte under blockade. It is a very tough fight at the moment, simply because they are now going through villages and towns that don't necessarily support the fighters.

We keep on fighting them...as they advance, and all what we see are empty villages. We did ask: 'Where are the civilians?' We were told the Civilians had fled in the desert. some of the rebels say that's because they are pro-Gaddafi and they consider them, really, as betrayers.

We know that the international Red Cross has been reaching out to those civilians. And those civilians say that they don't trust coming back to their villages even if there's no sound of gunfire or explosions around them. They simply don't trust what could happen to them.

It (the need for national reconciliation) is something we certainly felt over the past three weeks as we were pushing with the rebels. There are tribal divisions. There are social divisions. And the NTC really needs to tackle that as quickly as possible.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-15-2011-1...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
8. Gaddafi bastion residents plead for an attack



Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:16pm GMT



By Maria Golovnina

NORTH GATE OF BANI WALID, Libya, Sept 15 (Reuters) - Worn out after weeks without proper food and water, refugees gushing out of one of Muammar Gaddafi's last strongholds implored fighters backing Libya's new rulers to hurry up and rescue their families trapped inside the beleaguered town.

...


More than a quarter of Bani Walid's roughly 100,000 population has now fled, but residents said many more people were trapped by feared Gaddafi militiamen threatening to shoot anyone leaving their homes.

...


"Why are you waiting?" shouted Ramadan Karim after crossing the lines and stopping at a checkpoint manned by anti-Gaddafi fighters on the northern edge of the city.

Shaking his fist and leaning out of his car's window, he yelled at the soldiers: "Go in now! Rescue them! Our people are trapped inside! It's a ghost city! It's enough! It's enough!"

...


Field commanders around Bani Walid said they were under strict orders to proceed slowly and avoid the loss of civilian life as much as possible.

"We are not using the same tactics as Gaddafi. We want to help our people, all Libyans," said Hafid Bellal, an anti-Gaddafi fighter.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KF2Q220...




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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
9. David Cameron has told cheering crowds in Benghazi that it is "great to be in a free Libya"
From latestbreakingnews.com:


@channel4news

David Cameron has told cheering crowds in Benghazi that it is "great to be in a free Libya"



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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
10. A familiar face emerges to lead Libya's new army


By DAVID ENDERS
McClatchy Newspapers


ZAWIYAH, Libya -- Former Libyan military officers packed an auditorium here on Wednesday to listen to the man who has been appointed to lead the country's army as the movement that deposed Moammar Gadhafi tries to consolidate its control.

But leading the discussion wasn't the man most Western news reporters have focused on in recent weeks, Hakim Belhaj, the leader of rebel forces in Tripoli and a former member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, who was imprisoned by Gadhafi after the CIA captured him in Southeast Asia in 2004.

Instead, the man who spoke to the eager former officers was Gen. Khalifa Hifter, who defected from Gadhafi's army in 1987 and moved to the United States, where he lived in the Washington suburbs for decades before returning to Libya earlier this year.

Officers crowded into the auditorium to hear Hifter's presentation, many sitting in the aisles or standing wherever space was available. One of the officers, annoyed by a speaker who preceded Hifter, encouraged the speaker to hurry up.

"We came to hear Gen. Hifter!" the man shouted, to loud applause.

...


http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/14/2407400/a-familia...




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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. Libyan rebels this morning launched a major offensive to capture the city of Sirte
Libyan rebels this morning launched a major offensive to capture the city of Sirte, Muammar Gaddafi's birthplace and the last of his coastal strongholds still holding-out, writes Chris Stephen in Misrata.


Nine hundred armed rebel pickup trucks, the largest mobile force so far assembled for a single operation, has attacked the western edge of city, defended by loyalist troops and armed militia from the Gaddafi tribe.

Misrata's military council said loyalist forces were massed in the western suburbs to fight off the attack, and claimed they are using civilians as "human shields".

Rebel sources in Misrata say they are concerned about the fate of several hundred families, originally from Misrata, living in the central First District, who loyalist militias have been surrounding for several days, having cut water, food and power supplies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...


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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. #Sirte - update; Visions of A Libyan blog
Edited on Thu Sep-15-11 10:54 AM by Iterate
Dernawiya Hanan
Freedom Fighters have entered #Sirte from the East and South - #Libya 20 minutes ago

Sirte_Feb17 Sirtawi
News coming in that #FFs are now 3km west of #Sirte. #GulfMermaid #FreeSirte 45 minutes ago

emmaomo2011 emmaomo
#Sirte: Misrata FF entered gate 30. 5FF injured so far. FF destroyed 3 launchers and are still advancing via wefaq #Libya 1 hour ago

LibyanDictator
#Misrata eastern front are now 30km away from #Sirte. 5 injuries so far today. #Libya #Feb17 58 minutes ago

LibyaFromFrance Sarah LFFR
#AJA Breaking : #Misrata #FreedomFighters have entered #Sirte from the South and the West. #AllahuAkbar #Libya 30 minutes ago

2011feb17 Tweeting Tripoli
FF from Misrata confirm they entered Sirte and are close to the TV station. Resistance less than expected. 7 minutes ago

ETA, one more:
Sirte_Feb17 Sirtawi
Clashes now btwn #FFs & Gmen inside #Sirte. #FFs near Macmadas retail center near #2. 1 minute ago

----------

Visions of A Libyan

The beginning of the end. Freedom of speech as we know it!
Saturday, September 10, 2011
Waiting For Sirte...

Isn't it weird... that there exists on earth... at the heart of Africa's northern coast... the center of our planet's map... a city that's isolated from the outside world?

Bitter, and strange.

In the past, every time we went to Libya for our summer vacation, I always felt that our trip would be incomplete had we not been to Sirte. For me, that city is Libya. The people there are my family. I can't explain my love for its atmosphere, I just feel... home.

I love how, whenever we enter the city, Dad would turn off the a.c. and we'd roll down our windows. The blast of warm Mediterranean air is so soothing, let alone that we normally arrive there around dusk, a time when the city's crawling back to life

more... http://visionsofalibyan.blogspot.com/2011/09/waiting-fo...
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
13. UK will will take many Libyan areas off travel advisory, says Hague
William Hague, the UK foreign secretary, has confirmed plans to change Foreign Office travel advice on Libya.


Since 3 March, we have advised against all travel to Libya. However in light of the improving security situation on the ground I have decided to change our Travel Advice to advise against all but essential travel to Zuwarah, Az Zawiyah, Tripoli, al Khums, Zlitan and Misratah, and the coastal towns from Ras Lanuf to the Egyptian Border, including Benghazi. We still advise against all travel to all other areas of Libya.

...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...


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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
14. Tripoli celebrates but black Africans stuck in quagmire
Tripoli celebrates but black Africans stuck in quagmire
14 September 2011, Wednesday / KRŞAT BAYHAN, TRIPOLI

As thousands of members of the opposition in the Libyan capital of Tripoli celebrate an end to 42 years of Col. Muammar Qaddafis rule, around 1,500 mostly African refugees housed in fishing barracks in Sidi Bilal, some 25 kilometers west of Tripoli, live in fear of their lives simply for being black.


This camp, made out of broken down tents and abandoned fishing boats, is home to women and children who have been waiting for two months to be rescued. People here must walk two kilometers just to get potable water.

Said Musim, a 22-year-old Algerian who had worked with a family in Tripoli before the clashes began, moved to the camp because he thought it would be safer amidst all the fighting. I was living in Abu Buslim. It was the scene of some of the heaviest fighting between Qaddafi forces and the opposition. There were many Africans living there, so when the clashes began, we came to this fishing shelter believing it would be safer. This actually used to a be a Libyan naval port, but now its just full of abandoned fishing boats. Before coming here, I called a friend of mine, who assured me it was safe here, and so I came to this camp, he said.

Read more: http://www.todayszaman.com/news-256807-tripoli-celebrat...
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
15. The Guardian liveblogs Cameron/Sarkozy remarks in Benghazi
Latest entry is on top:


4.14pm: Here is a picture of Nicolas Sarkozy, Mustafa Abdul Jalil and David Cameron in Benghazi this afternoon.


Photograph: BBC News

Today has been a PR triumph for the leaders of Britain and France, and they look like they know it.


4.06pm: Sarkozy is out of the crowd and waving to the crowds.


4.05pm: Sarkozy is now out in the crowd, rock star-style. Some of the security staff look a bit worried.


4.04pm: National Transitional Council chairman Mustafa Abdul Jalil pins a badge of the new Libyan flag to William Hague's lapel.


4.03pm: You have shown us your courage. We need a new courage for forgiveness and reconciliation, Sarkozy says. Long live the friendship between Libya and France. And that's it from both leaders.


4.03pm: We want a united not a divided Libya, Sarkozy says.


4.02pm: France, Great Britain and Europe are with you, he tells the Benghazi crowd.


4.01pm: Nicolas Sarkozy is speaking now, also getting an incredible reception.


4.00pm: The two leaders are really getting a hero's welcome in Benghazi.

"It is great to be here in a free Benghazi. People in Britain salute your courage ... you showed the world you can get rid of dictator,"
Cameron told the cheering crowd.

Cameron said Gaddafi wanted to hunt the rebels down like rats, but they showed the courage of lions.


3.59pm: David Cameron is speaking in Benghazi, Libya, now, alongside Nicolas Sarkozy.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...




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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
16. Update 2: Gaddafi's nanny arrives in Malta for treatment
Shwejga Mullah, the Ethiopian nanny who suffered major burns which were left untreated when Hannibal Gaddafi's wife Aline threw boiling water over her, arrived in Malta at 5.30 p.m.

Ms Mullar arrived in Malta on a Medavia charter plane funded by the Maltese government. The flight left from Misurata.
Coming down the aircraft with a bandaged head, she was given a bouquet of flowers from the Malta office of Global Relief Libya. She was taken straight to Mater Dei Hospital for treatment in a waiting ambulance.

The nanny was found alone in a room at the Gaddafi's seaside mansion too sick and weak to go to the doctor a few days ago.
She said she had been abused three months ago, when the couple's daughter would not stop crying and she refused to beat the child on Aline Gaddafi's orders.

She said that she was never paid in the year she spent working for the Gaddafis.
Malta's director of defence Vanessa Frazier said that Ms Mullah had been gracious on the flight and emotional for closing a chapter in her life that is Libya.

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110915/loca...
Video at link

Props to Tripoli for treating her, and Malta for helping further.

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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
17. The woman in a war zone
(Paragraphs broken up for readability)

Source: Maclean's (Canada)




Sky News correspondent Alex Crawford says there are dangers everywhere, whether in Libya or London



Attila Kisbenedek/AFP/Getty Images



by Alex Derry on Thursday, September 15, 2011 11:20am


As rebels stormed Col. Moammar Gadhafis lavish Tripoli compound in August, one foreign correspondent, Alex Crawford of Sky News, was there to cover the action, at one point even interviewing an ecstatic rebel fighter wearing one of Gadhafis military caps stolen from the dictators master bedroom. Crawford has been called the journalistic face of the Libyan conflict.


But she is also a mother, and her presence at the deadly conflict has reignited a familiar debate over whether female correspondents, mothers in particular, belong on the front lines of a conflict zone. Is it legitimate to question whether they should be putting themselves at risk in deadly environments while their children grow up far away, or are such doubts inherently sexist?


Crawford, 49, is a veteran journalist, having worked at Sky News since its founding in 1989. After becoming a foreign correspondent for the network in 2006, she has reported from hostile zones including Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Tunisia and Egypt.


Her coverage of the 2008 Mumbai attacks won Sky News a BAFTA, and she was also awarded the 2010 Woman Journalist of the Year by Women in Film and Television, among other awards. According to her company bio, she has been arrested, detained, interrogated and faced live bullets, tear-gassing, rubber bullets, IEDs, and mortar shells.

...


But Crawford bristles at the notion that people question whether it is responsible of her to do her job while also being a mother, calling such a proposition really insulting and very, very sexist. ....


http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/09/15/the-woman-in-a-war-z... /




Crawford has done stellar work covering the Libyan Revolution. It should be noted, as well, that we've seen more work by women war correspondents than ever before, and the quality of their reporting overall has been exceptional.

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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
18. Gaddafi bastion residents plead for an attack
Edited on Thu Sep-15-11 11:41 AM by tabatha
Worn out after weeks without proper food and water, refugees gushing out of one of Muammar Gaddafi's last strongholds implored fighters backing Libya's new rulers to hurry up and rescue their families trapped inside the beleaguered town.

One of the last flashpoints in Libya's seven-month war, the desert town of Bani Walid has been under siege for two weeks, with die-hard Gaddafi loyalists dug into its steep valleys and hills, stoutly resisting advancing interim government troops.

Wary of alienating a powerful local tribe, provisional government forces massing outside the oasis town ceased fire this week to give civilians a chance to flee before storming Bani Walid.

A difficult terrain of treacherous hills and steep, sun-scorched valleys has also kept their advance in check, with most Gaddafi snipers and rocket launchers concentrated on higher ground inside the city.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44534015/ns/world_news-afri... /

Honking wildly and flashing victory signs at NTC fighters greeting them outside the gates, many refugees were visibly relieved.
"I am so happy to see you! We have been trapped there for months!" said one man, Akram. "Gaddafi militiamen are cowards. Everyone is with you."
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
19. Genocide Watch
Mission Statement Genocide Watch exists to predict, prevent, stop, and punish genocide and other forms of mass murder. We seek to raise awareness and influence public policy concerning potential and actual genocide. Our purpose is to build an international movement to prevent and stop genocide.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/home.html

http://www.genocidewatch.org/libya.html
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
20. NATO airstrikes conducted Wednesday, September 14

Key Hits 14 SEPTEMBER:


In the vicinity of Sirte: 1 Command and Control Node, 1 Military Vehicle Storage Facility, 4 Radars Systems, 2 Surface to Air Missile Systems.


In the vicinity of Waddan: 2 Anti Aircraft Guns, 1 Radar System, 2 Military Logistic Vehicles, 3 Surface to Air Missile Systems.


In the vicinity of Zillah: 1 Multiple Rocket Launcher, 2 Armed Vehicles.


In the vicinity of Bani Walid: 2 Armed Vehicles.


In the vicinity of Sebha: 1 Vehicle Storage Depot, 2 Military Staging Areas.


...


International Humanitarian Assistance Movements as recorded by NATO


Total of Humanitarian Movements**: 1187 (air, ground, maritime)


Ships delivering Humanitarian Assistance 14 SEPTEMBER: 0


Aircrafts delivering Humanitarian Assistance 14 SEPTEMBER: 36


**Some humanitarian movements cover several days.


http://www.nato.int/nato_static/assets/pdf/pdf_2011_09/...




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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
21. U.S. Congressman Wants Libya Rebels Investigated on "Crimes Against Humanity."
U.S. Congressman Wants Libya Rebels Investigated on "Crimes Against Humanity."
By Milton Allimadi
09-14-11

Representative Jesse Jackson, Jr., reacting to reports in The Wall Street Journal has called for an investigation by the International Criminal Court into the reported killings of Black Libyans in the city of Tawergha.

Rep. Jackson (D-IL-2) also tells The Black Star News he will ask that U.S. assistance for reconstruction and transition to democracy in Libya be conditional. The Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday that rebels from Misurata had torched the homes that belonged to the predominantly dark-skinned residents of the city of Tawergha, which is now abandoned.

A Journal reporter witnessed some of the torching and wrote that the words "slaves" and "negroes" were scribbled on the walls of the now emptied homes.

In an earlier news report The Wall Street Journal reported that rebels from the city of Misurata had declared that Tawergha would be "no more" and that the units conducting the attacks was named "The Brigade for Purging Slaves, black Skin."

Read More: http://blackstarnews.com/news/135/ARTICLE/7627/2011-09-...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Excellent idea.
Then those who first committed atrocities will be reported fully in the press and judged in a court of law.

"Many Misratans are convinced that Tawerghans were responsible for some of the worst atrocities committed during their city's siege, including allegedly raping women in front of their relatives and helping Gadhafi forces identify and kidnap rebel sympathizers and their families."

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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
22. Libya: Cameron and Sarkozy mobbed in Benghazi

15 September 2011 Last updated at 12:59 ET


Thousands of Libyans have turned out to cheer UK Prime Minister David Cameron and French President Nicolas Sarkozy in the eastern city of Benghazi.


"It is great to be in free Libya," Mr Cameron said. "Col Gaddafi said he would hunt you down like rats, but you showed the courage of lions."

...


Shouting to make himself heard above the roar of welcome, Mr Cameron told his audience : "Your friends in Britain and France will stand with you as you build your country and build your democracy for the future."


Mr Sarkozy plunged into the crowd, reaching across his bodyguards to shake the hands of waiting Libyans, many of them waving French flags.

...


NTC chief Mustafa Abdul Jalil thanked them for taking "brave positions" during the Libyan uprising.


"They showed us political, economic and military support which helped the rebels establish a state, and we thank France and the UK for that," he said.

...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14934352




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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
23. NTC forces in Sirte as Cameron, Sarkozy hail 'free Libya'

By Ines Bel Aiba | AFP News 8 minutes ago

...


"Misrata's thwar (fighters) arrived at the Al-Gharbiyat Bridge inside Sirte," the Misrata Military Council said in a statement, even as the British premier and French president were being mobbed in the eastern city of Benghazi.

...


"I confirm our forces are in Sirte, it is a big force," said Fathi Bashaga.


"There is still resistance but our fighters will be able to overcome it," the spokesman told an AFP correspondent in Wadi Bey, a desert town where part of the Sirte-bound convoy was held up in a battle with Kadhafi loyalists.


"They are attacking us with 40- and 43-mm mortars and all kinds of weapons."

...


"We are turning the tables on Kadhafi. We were attacked in Misrata on three fronts, and now we're going to attack Sirte on three fronts," Fawzy Sawawy, head of the Mountains Brigade, told AFP.

...


http://my.news.yahoo.com/libyas-leaders-welcome-cameron...




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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Opposition objective at Sirte is to reach families from Misrata held hostage
The Guardian's Chris Stephen reports:


The opposition objective is to punch through the front and reach District One, inhabited by families originally from Misrata who NTC sources say are being held hostage by pro-Gaddafi militias.

"Answering to the call of our people in the city of Sirte and in order to remove the injustice inflicted upon them by the ousted tyrant, more than 900 armed car(s) went toward Sirte this morning," said the military council.

Loyalist forces are fighting back with artillery, mortars and long-range grad rockets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...


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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
25. #Sirte - update 2
Edited on Thu Sep-15-11 01:41 PM by Iterate
Sirte_Feb17 Sirtawi
Ali AbdelSalam, Coordinator of #Sirte #FFs, says plans to enter city took place a while ago btwn #FFs on the inside and those on front lines 1 hour ago

CNNJustin Justin Lear
Libyan revolutionary fighters arrived Thursday at Al-Gharbiyat Bridge inside Sirte, hometown of fugitive leader Moammar #Gadhafi. 1 hour ago

Sirte_Feb17 Sirtawi
3 to 4 martyrs till now in Hay Zafran inside #Sirte
Snipers positioned in Hay Zaffran in #Sirte and #FFs putting off clashes in fear for civilian lives. #FreeSirte 1 hour ago
#Sirte airport reportedly liberated while heavy clashes ongoing in the center of the city. #FreeSirte #Feb17
G-men pounding #1 residential area indiscriminately with 14.5 #Sirte #Feb17 #Libya
Direct source from #Sirte: Gmen have taken prisoners to the south of Bu Hadi (east) possibly 2 use them as human shields.

LibyanDictator
Almanara: Reports of heavy clashes in Sirte between f fighters and Saadi Brigade, f fighters regrouping, no electricity. #Libya 50 minutes ago

FreeBenghazi Libya.elHurra
Mohamed Khalifa AlSalaabi, first fighter martyred today at #Sirte, ا#Libya 51 minutes ago

Sirte_Feb17 Sirtawi
8 #FFs injured and one martyred so far. #Sirte #GulfMermaid #Feb17 40 minutes ago

RRowleyTucson Robert Rowley
Reports that some #Gaddafi filth from #Sirte have fled 12 km East to #WadiJarif, being chased down by #Freedomfighters. #Libya #Feb17 20 minutes ago

MachahirNews Machahir123
BREAKING: Libya's NTC Forces in Sirte reported Thursday that they have captured the city's airport after fierce fighting. #Libya #Gaddafi # 22 minutes ago

ETA always a bit more..
CFKlebergTT Carl F Kleberg - TT
#Misrata mil. council say fighters have reached #Sirte city center. Say #Gaddafi forces in insurance building and beach houses. #Libya 1 minute ago

CFKlebergTT Carl F Kleberg - TT
#Misrata mil. council say #NTC fighters control #Sirte city entrances, will "begin process of combing". #Libya 38 seconds ago
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
26. Seeing the cost of revolution in Libya
Source: CNN (Security Clearance blog)



September 15th, 2011


By Foreign Affairs Correspondent Jill Dougherty on assignment in Tripoli, Libya

At Libya's largest hospital, the Tripoli Medical Center, the State Department's point man on Libya, Assistant Secretary of State for New Eastern Affairs Jeffrey Feltman, saw the price of revolution up close.


Accompanied by doctors, Feltman visited three rooms in which civilian men lay in hospital beds recuperating from gunshot wounds. Most of them had been hit by Gadhafi loyalist snipers. Feltman shook his head as the doctors described the indiscriminate nature of the attacks.


One man was standing on his roof shouting "Allahu Akbar!" ("God is great!"), they said, in support of the rebels. Another was standing in front of his house.
When the doctors told Feltman that one man was shot with an anti-aircraft weapon, he seemed shocked.


Like many Libyans in the capital these days, the men flashed the rebel "v for victory" sign, even though the war is not over. Anti-Gadhafi forces still are fighting for control over three remaining Gadhafi strongholds of Bani Walid, Sirte and Sabha.


Leaving the hospital, Feltman told CNN he found the men "inspiring."

...


http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/15/top-us-officia... /




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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
28. Niger says France should not interfere on Libyans



Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:54pm GMT

Niger has about 32 Gaddafi supporters, including son Saadi

France should not interfere, minister says

Says "uncomfortable" France was asked to intervene


By John Irish


PARIS, Sept 15 (Reuters) - Niger's foreign minister said on Thursday that France should not interfere in its relations with Libya, after Paris said it had been asked by Libya's new government to secure the return of Gaddafi loyalists who fled to Niger.

Three convoys containing important members of Gaddafi's entourage have arrived in Niger in the past seven days, including Gaddafi's son Saadi, Gaddafi's security chief and at least two top generals, all of whom are now in the capital.

Speaking during a lightning visit to Tripoli on Thursday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said Libya's interim leader had asked Paris to intervene with Niger's authorities to ensure their return. Sarkozy said diplomatic contacts would take place on Friday.

"France is a close ally ... but on questions linked to Libya we would rather requests came from Libya and not France. That's clear," Niger Foreign Minister Mohamed Bazoum told Reuters in a telephone interview.
...

"We have recognised the NTC. If we hadn't then we would have understood why they would go through France."
...

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KF3H020...




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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
29. Why NATO's mission in Libya isn't over yet, Clay Claiborne
BENGHAZI, Libya Libyan rebels have broken off their assault on a key city south of Tripoli after discovering that forces loyal to ousted dictator Moammar Gadhafi there had placed Russian-made Grad rockets and mortars on the roofs of houses filled with civilians, the rebels' military spokesman said Sunday.

Col. Ahmed Omar Bani said the decision to halt the rebel offensive on Bani Walid, where Gadhafi's son Saif al Islam is believed to be hiding, made it unlikely the rebels would have full control of the country before the end of September.

Mummar Qaddafi is a mass murderer and serial killer that won't stop until he is dead or in prison.

Since Qaddafi has chosen that road, since he has persisted in killing civilians to the very end, he has made NATO's legal mission of protecting civilians synonymous with ending his regime.

Had he at any time targeted his fire only at the freedom fighters these Qaddafi supporters may have been able to argue NATO was overstepping it's bounds and just backing one side in a civil war. But he has not, even in his last days, he has given NATO only two choices, either abandon their mission of protecting civilians or prosecute the war until Qaddafi is put out of their misery.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/09/15/1017088/-Why-N...
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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Of course it isn't. NATO's mission isn't over until all the booty is secured and...
the oil is flowing into the coffers of western oil companies. Libya is top 10 in the world in oil reserves, same with Iraq. There's a reason why Western intervention took place in those two countries. There are evil dictators all over the world that oppress their own people, but we only care about the ones that are sitting on loads of fossil fuels.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Do you read the posts on these threads?
Edited on Thu Sep-15-11 05:13 PM by tabatha
First of all ---- the oil contracts are going to remain the same as they were before the war. That is, Russia and China (not western) who did not help, will not have their contracts rescinded.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The ONLY difference is that instead of the money from oil sales going into Gaddafi's piggy bank, the money will be going to the Libyan people.

You may also have missed the post about NATO wanting to get out as fast as possible, because they cannot afford much more of this.

You may also have missed the post about the western powers leaving Libya to handle the post-Gaddafi governing - they learned hard lessons in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If you have not read those articles, please read them and then read them again, so that the information sticks.

And if you make such an outrageous claim, please provide actual facts to back it up.
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
30. #Sirte - update 3
Sirte_Feb17 Sirtawi
Map of #Sirte showing: Wadi Jarif, Gharbiyat, Gurdabiya Airport, Gasr Bu Hadi. #FreeSirte #Feb17 #GulfMermaid pic.twitter.com/EqKhmYbT
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=31.1331953&lon=16.6199112&z=1...

RRowleyTucson Robert Rowley
#Sirte: #Freedomfighters entered/entering town w/ 900 Military Vehicles including 100 tanks.Fighting continues. #Libya #Feb17

FYI, this number of vehicles seems to be the one most often repeated, but without official confirmation that I know of.

4Adam Adam
(Reuters ) Libyan NTC forces storm Gaddafi's home town #Sirte http://t.co/YgZqe4Xq #Libya
IndyLibya Free Libya
Libya: rebels 'enter gates of Sirte' - Telegraph.co.uk goo.gl/fb/620HC #Libya #Feb17

PoshBirdGabi PoshBirdGabi
ALERT: "Rebels" made fake video of Sirte to break the will of the resisters. DO NOT BELIEVE THE FAKE VIDEO SHOWN ON AL JAZEERA ABOUT SIRTE.

The nutcases are wound up by this and are out in force. It was like poking them with a stick.

ShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
AJA reporting live from inside Sirte #Libya #Sirte 8 minutes ago
FF entered Sirte from the southwest, the exact area where Gaddafi was born. This was to allow some loyalists to flee before (cont)
the full battle commences. Sirte is surrounded from East and West, The south and Sea

@ChangeInLibya Ismael Zmirli 35 minutes ago :
SIRTE: BREAKING: LIBYAN freedom fighters are now in control of Gardabiyah Airbase, as well as the west and south entrances of #Sirte #libya
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
31. In Libya, beware the un-miya, miya moments
In Libya, beware the un-miya, miya moments
September 15, 2011

Tripoli, Libya (CNN) It punctuates almost every Libyans conversation: Miya miya. Literally it mean 100%, 100% In other words, Things are OK. Fine. Great. Cool.

...

This week, as we stood at a rebel checkpoint some nine or ten miles from the besieged town of Bani Walid, private cars with civilians fleeing the fighting slowed as the guards, in a motley collection of military gear, sneakers, hipster sunglasses and head bands waved them through. We stuck our heads in windows and asked the families what conditions were like in the city center.

Miya miya, they said. But their eyes told a different tale. With no electricity, little water, food running low and shells raining down on their houses how could it possibly be miya miya, we thought.

more... http://shabablibya.org/news/in-libya-beware-the-un-miya...

That's not exactly the definition I've seen before. I wouldn't mind a better range of meanings from a better source (such as on the AJE blog) if anyone finds it.

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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
33. African Union 'within days' of recognizing NTC--diplomatic sources
The Telegraph reports:


South African diplomatic sources told the Telegraph that African Union was "within days" of recognising NTC-led interim government. South Africa, a member of the UN Security Council said it would then remove objections to a British sponsored resolution to ease the sanctions regime on Libya.

"We must act responsibly on this and we have a responsibility for the building of the country," a South African official said. "We already have the draft text and will engage with it, but all the checks and balances are in place."

A communique released after the meeting said the AU had been reassured by the NTC that it would "give priority to national unity".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindi...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
34. LIBYAN REVOLUTION DAY 211: CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 12:01 AM FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 16
Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, UTC +1 hour, GMT +2 hours










Inside one of Gaddafi's torture cells
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030931/Libya-I...

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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
36. Europe ready to back Libya rebel gov't in UN

Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:40pm GMT

KRUGER NATIONAL PARK, South Africa, Sept 15 (Reuters) - Europe is ready to recognise Libya's interim government in the United Nations, but will push it to become more inclusive, the European Council president said on Thursday.

Herman Van Rompuy, on a visit to South Africa, said Europe would back the interim National Transitional Council (NTC) as Libya's official representative.

"We are even ready to recognise they can take the place of Libya in the United Nations," Van Rompuy told reporters after meeting with South African President Jacob Zuma in the sprawling Kruger National Park.

...

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KF3U520...


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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
37. NATO slammed for Libya civilian deaths NOT! by Clay Claiborne
From the "why waste a day" Division of the Department of Misleading Headlines, I bring you this:

NATO slammed for Libya civilian deaths
PressTV Saturday Apr 09, 201108:16 AM GMT


Since certain people speaking for the ANSWER Coalition accused me of running a misleading headline right here in the DailyKos with my title No Libyans allowed at ANSWER Libya Forum because a few anti-Qaddafi Libyans managed to get past the Answer ticket sellers and make themselves known in the Q&A, I have been sensitive to mis-leading headlines.

So I offer the headline NATO slammed for Libya civilian deaths as a prime example of how the pro-Qaddafi side can spin a story. PressTV is very pro-Iranian BTW.

The first paragraph clarifies what they mean in the headline:

NATO has come under intense grilling over its lack of response to the killings of Libyan civilians by the regime forces amid fierce skirmishes in the western city of Misratah.

So the story is that NATO is being criticized for not doing more to prevent Qaddafi from killing civilians in Misrata. That is what you gathered from reading the headline isn't it?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/09/992949/-NATO-s...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
38. 3 questions US forces must answer before declaring victory in Libya

1. Can NATO win in Libya without troops on the ground?

On this point, the Obama administration has been adamant: No US service member boots on the ground.

European allies in the operation many of whom also have forces in Afghanistan have followed suit with similar assurances to their war-weary citizens.

But some US defense analysts warn that it may be difficult to cement any victory in Libya without ground troops. The Pentagon acknowledged this week that at least four US soldiers have been sent to the capitol of Tripoli to assist a State Department team in scoping out a possible US embassy there, a site that a Defense Department spokesperson said may be booby-trapped with explosives. At the same time, Pentagon officials have emphasized that these soldiers are not taking an offensive or even defensive role in the campaign.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2011/0915/3-quest...

Jeez, why do they not get it - boots on the ground in US embassies are boots on the ground in US territory.
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-17-11 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #38
109. I don't understand how the CS Monitor can print this with a straight face.
1. Can NATO win in Libya without troops on the ground?

On this point, the Obama administration has been adamant: No US service member boots on the ground.

European allies in the operation many of whom also have forces in Afghanistan have followed suit with similar assurances


It is regularly reported in the mainstream press that European troops are in Libya. Either the CS Monitor is totally ignorant of what's going on or they are just plain lying to their readers.


Libya conflict: British and French soldiers help rebels prepare Sirte attack

Soldiers on ground in eastern Libya have guided bombers to create path for opposition fighters towards Gaddafi's birthplace

Thursday 25 August 2011 19.28 BST

British and French special forces are on the ground in eastern Libya, calling in air strikes and helping rebel units as they prepare to assault Sirte, the last coastal town still in the hands of pro-Gaddafi forces, a rebel officer has told the Guardian.

The soldiers have taken a leading role not only in guiding bombers to blast a path for opposition fighters but also in planning the offensive that finally broke the six-month siege of Misrata, Mohammed Subka, a communications specialist in the Al Watum (My Home) brigade, said.

On Thursday afternoon, Subka and his unit waited at the rebel frontline, known as Kilometre Sixty, aboard a column of battered, black pickup trucks mounted with heavy machine guns and a few tanks recently captured from Gaddafi's forces.

"We are with the England team," he told the Guardian. "They advise us."

...Defence sources have confirmed to the Guardian that British special forces have been on the ground in Libya for several weeks, along with special forces from Qatar, France and some eastern European states.

Subka said British and French units had been operating in Misrata for several weeks, based somewhere near the city's port, Kasa Ahmed. Of the two, he said the British were the more friendly.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/25/libya-confl...


What is one to make of this CS Monitor report then?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-17-11 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #109
110. I think they're using "boots on the ground" differently than you are.
You consider, for example, the fact that a dozen or three SAS / special forces are not going to be able to logistically stay there beyond the conflict itself where they can hide within the rebel forces and be conspicuous. To be able to handle more than a few dozen troops you need increasingly large logistics, until at which point those troops become an occupying force. They can stay as long as they want and fight off any attempts to oust them indefinitely (see: Iraq / Afghanistan).

From your own link: "British special forces soldiers in Libya currently number fewer than 30, but the size of the deployment could be increased if the security situation deteriorates and the hunt for Gaddafi and his entourage drags on.

SAS troops have so far taken an undercover role, training rebel groups in advance of the attack on Tripoli. They have been working with French commandos and special forces from a number of east European countries. British defence officials, perhaps for political reasons, are emphasising the role played by Qatari special forces, notably in the storming of Gaddafi's compound, and those of the UAE."

I have read reports where SAS has been very low key where the rebels didn't even know they were there. And for good reason, I suspect, as there was the detention of British SAS when they first arrived. Saying 6 men, 30 men, qualify as "boots on the ground" in the context of occupying forces is really taking the words out of context. Yes it would be better if every single report made that distinction ("No troops outside of special forces"), but it does not suddenly destroy the credibility of an article.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-17-11 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #109
111. "Boots on the ground"
This is a term that refers to combat forces.

When I served in Vietnam, I fought against Norh Vietmese Army combat units that had military advisors from the Chinese Army. I still remember one battle at the DMZ in which the NVA regiment's Chinese advisor was killed, his body and encrypted radio and codes recovered. Yet we never took that to mean China had "boots on the ground." in Vietnam.

The notion that the mere presence of a relatively small number of foreign military support personnel constitutes "boots on the ground" is laughable. This kind of thing goes back a long time, and it has always been distinguished from the introduction of actual combat forces. Until now, at least.

Now we've seen even the display of a Qatari flag taken to mean an incursion of Qatari combat forces into the fighting in Libya (with the SIZE of the flag seized upon as the most incriminating evidence of Qatar's "invasion").

Both sides here seem to spend a lot of time 'spinning' inconsequential BS issues.

The real question is on the fundamental disagreements on the revolution and the intrvention--not the manufactured/inflated side issues.

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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
39. UK arms sales to the Middle East and North Africa: who do we sell to, how much is military and how m
I hate weapons sales.



How big are arms sales to the Middle East and North Africa? The unrest in Libya, Tunisia, Egypt and across the region has brought attention to one of the UK's most successful export markets: military equipment.

It's a world shrouded in secrecy, and centred on giant arms fairs, such as Idex, taking place in Abu Dhabi. In the UK the international arms trade is managed by Strategic Export Controls, which grant licenses. They're not just for arms, but for a whole range of 'controlled' products. Here's the official take from the Department for Business, Innovation & Skills:

The Export Control Organisation is responsible for legislating, assessing and issuing export and trade licences for specific categories of "controlled" goods. This encompasses a wide range of items including so-called dual-use goods, torture goods, radioactive sources, as well as military items. Whether a licence is required depends on various factors including the items exported and any sanctions in force on the export destination.

If items exported from the United Kingdom are controlled, then a licence is needed to legally export. Exporters are responsible for complying with the law, understanding the regulations and keeping informed.

This is isn't everything sold, but the vast majority and everything granted a license is categorised. The official reports (published in PDF format) detail the maximum values of licenses granted in each group. There is a searchable database (you can access it here). But for the breakdowns, you have to use the PDFs. Licenses can and are often revoked - as some have just been to Bahrain.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/feb/22/uk-...


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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
40. When the west encourages genocide and xenophobia (the persecution of blacks by rebels continues)
Edited on Thu Sep-15-11 06:10 PM by Cali_Democrat
When the west encourages genocide and xenophobia
September 15, 2011 - 2:59am | By Fred Nwonwu

Any Igbo man, who has had the unfortunate experience of spending substantial time in any of the cities, villages or towns in the far North of Nigeria, and recently Jos, knows firsthand how it feels to be hunted, to have bloodthirsty gangs on the prowl for your blood. They know too well, that sudden dryness of the oral cavity and the clinching of the tummy, which comes from acute fear that arise from the knowledge that ones life hangs in the balance, and could end within the minute.

In the North, the fear of sudden death is not a constant one, but one that comes and goes with each seasonal blowout of violence and ends soon after it is over or one finds succour in the nearest army or police barrack, constant enough that many have gotten used to it.

Having witnessed sectional violence and the madness that is unexplainable xenophobia, I know a little bit about what my compatriots and other blacks are facing now in Libya. They are being hunted, killed and treated worse than beasts; all because they have skin colouration that are pixels darker than that of the average northern Libyan.

It is not that these killings and ill treatments of blacks in Libya started today. For sure, it also occurred under Gaddafi who was bent on keeping his relationship rosy with Europe by controlling the number of illegal immigrants that pass through Libya to Europe. However, since the uprising in March, the rebel forces have shown a higher capacity of hatred for black Africans and have being lynching them with abandon, under the nose of their NATO masters.

Read more: http://dailytimes.com.ng/blog/when-west-encourages-geno...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. When will the crap end? Crap article after crap article.
Edited on Thu Sep-15-11 07:41 PM by tabatha
"Yes, NATO and its media apparatus created the environment that birthed these hate-driven killings. NATO, by bombing and pushing the conflict that threw a sovereign state into chaos; the western media by refusing to believe that any right thinking Libyan would fight on the side of Gaddafi, therefore he must be fighting with Sub-Saharan African mercenaries. How else would we explain the silence from Obama, Sarkozy, Cameroon, and their media over the widely broadcasted Youtube videos of lynching of black Libyans in Benghazi after that city fell in March, or the others that followed?"

The attacks by the Gaddafi forces with 1,000 Tarwigha against the people of Misrata, and the backlash by the residents of Misrata against the Tarwigha, occurred before the NATO strikes happened. You go on and on about the retaliation by victims in Misrata - but not one word of what happened to them. Are you biased against Arabs? It is OK to kill, loot, rape them.

"since the uprising in March, the rebel forces have shown a higher capacity of hatred for black Africans and have being lynching them with abandon, under the nose of their NATO masters."

Where are the reports that state that? Please provide one - since March.
"Human Rights Watch has not found evidence of killings of Africans in Tripoli or systematic abuse of detainees, but the widespread arbitrary arrests and frequent abuse have created a grave sense of fear among the citys African population."

BTW NATO has NOT been on the ground, so they have no idea of what goes on in the streets.

The Tabhou, a black tribe, are fighting with the rebels. There are many black Libyans - did you know that - who are fighting with the rebels.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. pure projection on your part. her posts are the only thing of value in this entire thread,
afaic. (and i'm sure i'm not alone.)
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I've never encountered more hateful commentary in my entire life than I have covering Libya.
That is a fact. Vile, hateful, cruel post, after post, after post. Nothing comes close.
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #49
57. First of all, Joshcryer, that's an exaggeration.
People here have been much crueler to George Bush, Dick Cheney, Sarah Palin, Republican candidates, and other such riff-raff that we read about here.

Second, this may not be the best place to post this war glorification and propaganda stuff. Let's face it, people here are pretty bright, even if some do disagree with you, and some people may regard this unrelenting propaganda as an insult to their intelligence.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. The difference is that the things said about them are true, these slanders are not.
Islamaphobic posts as "the only thing of value in this entire thread" is an insult to over 10 thousand posts regarding the Libyan Revolution. Calling an information thread made by unabashedly anti-war people "war glorification and propaganda stuff" when we go to extreme lengths to cover every aspect of the revolution is just another stab, and I find it ironic given the context of your reply. Saying "some people may regard this unrelenting propaganda as an insult to their intelligence" just underscores it.

I have never felt so demoralized, so hated, so utterly thrust into a toxic environment in my entire life. I have debated with right wingers, vile racists, extreme free market nutballs, and never felt so utterly trashed, so utterly sunk into an abyss of hatred. Ever. I mean it. Others know full well how bad this has affected me and I keep it to myself, but it is beyond anything I have ever experienced.

This started because we were covering Egypt and following along with Libya, and then it was decided that we should stop caring about Libya. I saw the corpses whose bodies were cut in two by anti-aircraft fire on protesters, I saw the corpses of people whose heads were blown off, limbs dismembered. I heard Gaddafi's ranting speeches about how he was going to cleanse Libya of "the rats" "ally by ally, street by street, house by house." I saw that the entire country rose up against him, beyond 70% or more in 21 cities. None of this is "propaganda" as you say it, but it motivated me to keep it going. I admit I couldn't have done it without the help of pinboy3niner and tabatha and Iterate (my health was deteriorating rapidly for the months there). And it grieves me the very possibility that those helping are as hated as I feel on a continual basis.

So spare me, please. You cannot tell me how I feel, that is not an exaggeration, it is brutal honesty. The first time since I've started coming to my beloved DU I felt this way. It takes extreme patience and composure to keep from returning the smears back at these people, as I live by the motto "it takes strength to be gentle and kind" and I try to do it. It's worked for the most part as two of the most toxic people have been banned, and as time goes on I can only hope the rest will be banished with them.
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CJvR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. Cheer up!
I for one appreciates these threads, a great collection of the latest news from Libya without the need to run around half the web.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #59
96. You're a stong dude - stronger than I...
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Dansk Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-17-11 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #59
113. Thank You
This continuing thread has been my number one source of information in my passionate support for the Libyan overthrow of Gaddafi and the Arab spring. Why anyone would object to the overthrow of such an evil dictator, beats me, especially from people who one might expect to support the democratic movements around the world. I have kept up with reading the posts since the beginning. I so much appreciate the huge amount of time that you all have spent to collect all those articles and videos to inform us all. I know a number of people who steadfastly read this thread every day, but who prefer not to engage in any discussion. I have so admired your restraint and your kindness. Thank you.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-18-11 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #59
115. wow, just wow. talk about toxicity. mind blowing.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #57
93. Well, then all of the media from all over the world must be propaganda.
Edited on Fri Sep-16-11 05:32 PM by tabatha
And all journalists covering wars should stop immediately - if it is unrelenting propaganda insulting the intelligence of the world.

Because that is where these posts come from - valid media sources from all over the world including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

I think an IQ check is in order. Because without any news reporters we would be back in the dark ages.

And if you cannot appreciate the ousting of a tyrant that has oppressed his people for 42 years, I think an humanity check is also in order.

BTW, there are similar threads on AJE where news items are reported on blogs in postings by people from all over the world - but the quality is somewhat lower because one has to also read about personal and medical histories of some of the posters.

And apparently there is one on Daily Kos, in which an anti-war activist participates, who has actually put his money where his mouth is and produced anti-war films.

http://twitter.com/#!/clayclai

Tunisians are also ecstatic about Libya's liberation. They have been unbelievable in their support. And justifiably so, if the Libyan revolution had not happened, Gaddafi would have put down the Tunisian revolution with 30,000 mercenaries ... and more.

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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #93
97. "I think an humanity check is also in order."
The ability to emphasize with the plight of others is the foundation of modern humanism.
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-17-11 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #93
114. OK, so I'm stupid and inhumane. Anything else?
"Gaddafi would have put down the Tunisian revolution with 30,000 mercenaries."

You're sure about that, are you?
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-17-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #57
112. no kidding, esp. on the "unrelenting" and "insult to intelligence" part
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CJvR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #48
65. No you are not!
Gaddaphiles everywhere supports your position.
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CJvR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #40
64. Genocide and xenophobia...
...needs no encouragement from the West. Gaddafi was a proven master of both.

ps: Anything the Libyans do is going to be under the noses of NATO - 10000 feet under their noses! LOL!
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
43. ICRC: 13 mass graves found in Libya
ICRC: 13 mass graves found in Libya
Cairo/Beirut At least 13 mass graves have been found in Libya over the past three weeks, the International Committee of the Red Cross said on Thursday.

The Geneva-based Red Cross said its staff assisted in the recovery of 125 bodies found at 12 different sites in and around Tripoli.

ICRC spokesperson Steven Anderson said more mass graves are being found every week.

On Wednesday Human Rights Watch said 34 bodies were exhumed from a mass grave in western Libya.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
44. For those who say "Blacks" are being targeted in Libya
For those who say "Blacks" are being targeted in Libya
For those who say "Blacks" are being targeted in Libya, I say that is not even remotely true. These photos i took about an hour ago show hard working Africans helping us cleaning our city after the war. They are usually met with "thanks" and sometimes with a generous tip. At least I do.


I only have a problem with mercenaries who were brought over to kill us, and ironically get paid with our stolen money.


I can differentiate between a killer holding a snipers rifle and an innocent hard working African with a broom stick. Thank you, I don't need you to tell me the difference...






Why aren't the racist rebels rounding these workers up?
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
45. Pretty good video from PressTV of all places.
Benghazi: The Uprising
This documentary shows how a prison massacre in 1996 proved to be the main catalyst that led to the uprising in the city of Benghazi, Libya. The programme explores how a 48-year old father of two sacrificed his life to enable the people to liberate the city and end years of injustice, oppression and misery at the hands of Muammar Gaddafi. Religious freedoms and unity have been the highlight of the revolution in Benghazi and the great legacy of Omar Mukhtar still lives on in the hearts of the people.

Film By: Hassan Alkatib, British Documentary Filmmaker
http://hassanalkatib.wordpress.com


http://youtu.be/nh5y163w7Ec
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
46. Doctors reveal hospital horrors under Gaddafi


Little of the sprawling complex of Tripoli Central Hospital reminds its visitors of the hardships that took place there during the final months of Muammar Gaddafis regime.

As staff members slowly return to their normal routines, hair-raising stories are emerging of what the doctors of the hospital have endured since the start of Libyas uprising in February.

Shortly after the first demonstrations in Tripoli were brutally dispersed by Gaddafis army, the hospital was taken over by government troops, forcing doctors to report patients who came in with bullet wounds, doctors told Al Jazeera.

Many patients suspected of being anti-Gaddafi were taken away and have not been found since.

Evading the terror in the hospital corridors, a group of doctors affiliated with the hospital were said to have set up a network of secret field clinics throughout Tripoli, away from the eyes of security forces.

Private homes, schools and other buildings were converted into makeshift operating theatres, supplied with medical equipment that the doctors smuggled out of the hospitals storage rooms.

http://shabablibya.org/news/doctors-reveal-hospital-hor...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
47. Pythons, parties and offshore accounts: Life among Libya's elite
Libya's rebels were yet to make the military breakthrough which would see his father swept from power but Hannibal al-Gaddafi was taking the precaution of reviewing his finances. There was a bank transfer for $14,999,920.82 (about 9.5m), another of $6,439,201.76, and a third, more modest one of $3,233,434.10. He was, one could assume, reassured about having enough put away for rainy days ahead.

The documents, with details of accounts in Paris, Panama and Tunis, were found by The Independent on a laptop belonging to the fourth son of Muammar Gaddafi, abandoned as he fled with his family from his mansion in Tripoli. The papers show the sheer extent of wealth Hannibal Gaddafi had accrued while working as a "consultant" to Libya's national shipping corporation. Many of the transactions involve Amen Bank and the North African International Bank, both based in the Tunisian capital, and the company Indotex SA based in Panama. Others go through a myriad of institutions before ending up at accounts at tax havens.

Hannibal Gaddafi, his wife Aline Skaf, a former model from Lebanon, and their two children have sought refuge in neighbouring Algeria along with other members of the Gaddafi family. The new Libyan government has demanded that Algiers send them back to face charges, including theft of state.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/pythons-...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
50. Video reply to all communists bastards on youtube
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Nicely done! Props to that girl.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:15 AM
Response to Original message
52. BREAKING, Al Jazeera: Rebel fighters have taken Sirte airport

Three-pronged attack underway from N, S and W. East side has loyalist towns outside Sirte, where rebels are going slower to avoid civ. casualties.

Some neighborhoods in N, S and W of Sirte now under rebel control.

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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. AJ update on fighting going on now at Sirte and Bani Walid:

Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid has just been reporting live from Om Gandil, about 90km outside Sirte. She has just spoken to Makhlook al-Tajani, a man identifying himself as a spokesman for the opposition fighters inside Sirte.

Tajani said that western, northern and southern parts of Sirte are already under the control of the opposition. He said tha the situation for civilians inside the city was dire, with no water or electricity, and barely any food. The town has been under blockade from opposition forces over the last two weeks, and Tajani said it had been under siege by pro-Gaddafi forces for several months before that.

The opposition spokesman said that they were confident that Sirte would fall very soon.

The difficulty facing the opposition in Sirte is the eastern flank, on which there are many towns and villages inhabited by Gaddafi supporters.

Meanwhile, in Bani Walid, fighters from Misrata are in the process of carrying out an attack on the city, with some reports suggesting that there are opposition fighters inside the town.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-16-2011-1...
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CJvR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #52
63. Sirte airport...
...is in fact a major military airbase just south of the city itself. If it indeed have been captured then Sirte is practically isolated from the rest of Gaddafiland. Also north of Sirte is the sea.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #63
68. It's "the old airport on the western edge of Sirte," according to AP
On the assault from the North, AJ reported ffs moved to the north side from the coast road to attack there.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:31 AM
Response to Original message
54. Libyan fighters move on Gadhafi area; Turkish PM in Tripoli


By HADEEL AL-SHALCHI, Associated Press 1 hour ago


BANI WALID, Libya (AP) Libyan revolutionary forces faced fierce resistance as they streamed into one of the remaining bastions of support for Moammar Gadhafi on Friday, while the Turkish prime minister met with the country's new rulers in the capital Tripoli.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's visit came a day after the French and British leaders traveled to Libya as the international community rallies around the interim government's efforts to establish legitimacy and start rebuilding the country despite continued fighting against loyalists of Gadhafi, who remains on the run.

Libyan fighters in dozens of pickup trucks mounted with heavy weapons made their way from the north into the center of town of Bani Walid, 90 miles (140 kilometers) southeast of Tripoli. Explosions and gunfire resounded across the area and smoke billowed into the sky as fierce clashes broke out.

One of the fighters, Hisham Nseir, said the frontline is "very heated and chaotic" and his troops were meeting with heavy resistance from Gahdafi's men.

Libyan fighters also have converged on Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte to the north of Bani Walid.
...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jJRh2...



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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:38 AM
Response to Original message
55. Libya's Agoco to pump 200,000 barrels per day by end of September

Libya's Arabian Gulf Oil Company (Agoco) has said that it expects output from the eastern oilfield in Sarir to rise steadily to 200,000 barrels per day by the end of September, Reuters reports.

At that rate of output, one export cargo will be possible every ten days.

"We are producing 150,000 bpd from 100 wells. We will try to get to 200,000 bpd by the end of the month," said Abdeljalil Mayuf, spokesman for Agoco.

Agoco is the only company known to be pumping oil in Libya at the moment.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-16-2011-1...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:58 AM
Response to Original message
56. Battle updates via The Guardian
The Guardian's Matthew Weaver and Haroon Siddique posted these updates on their Live Blog:



There appears to be a fresh push by anti-Gaddafi forces against two of the ousted dictator's remaining strongholds.

Both Reuters and AP report Libyan fighters have been streaming into Bani Walid, 180 km (110 miles) south of Tripoli and that explosions and heavy gunfire were heard. Fighters say they have seized the valley leading into centre of Bani Walid from Gaddafi forces and are advancing on the central stronghold, according to al-Arabiya.

Al-Jazeera is reporting fierce battles in Sirte, with trucks and tanks pouring into Gaddafi's hometown. It says there have been many casualties among among soldiers loyal to the deposed Libyan leader. It appears reports on Thursday that forces loyal to Libya's new rulers were premature, although the NTC is still claiming to be in control of certain areas of the town. A council spokesman told al-Jazeera that the situation for civilians is "very concerning" with no electricity or running water and food stocks very low.

The NTC fighters have taken control of Sirte's airport, according to al-Jazeera Arabic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...



The Guardian's Middle East editor Ian Black is now in Tripoli and has filed this on the fight for Sirte and Bani Walid.



Libyan rebel fighters are involved in heavy fighting in a final battle to capture Muammar Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte, one of the last three significant strongholds still held by the old regime.

Rebels are also advancing in strength on Bani Walid, a key tribal centre south of Tripoli where the dictator's fugitive son Saif al-Islam is said to have been sighted in recent days. Reports from the rebel front line described civilians leaving the town and explosions and heavy gunfire inside it.

Claims on Thursday night that Sirte had fallen to forces loyal to the National Transitional Council gave way to a standoff followed by renewed clashes this morning. An Al-Jazeera correspondent described heavy fighting and intense use of snipers around the industrial zone to the south west of the town.

Sirte, on the Mediterranean coast between Tripoli and Benghazi, was hit repeatedly by Nato missiles and bombs from the start of the conflict in March, but has remained in the hands of Gaddafi forces since. If it does fall, the rebels will control Libya's the entire Mediterranean coast.

Yousif bin Yousif, a rebel commander from Misrata, told Al Jazeera that the entrances to the city were in their hands as elements of the 32nd Brigade - the elite unit commanded by Gaddafi's son Khamis were holed up in villas on the coast. The rebels said they were expecting a last stand in the centre of town.

The Misrata rebel council said the Sirte attack was being mounted by 900 "technicals," flatbed pickup trucks mounted with machineguns or rocket launchers. Attempts were made to persuade Gaddafi forces many from his Gadadfa tribe- to surrender but they responded by firing Grad rockets.

Bani Walid is the centre of the powerful Warfallah tribe. Its capture will leave only Sebha in the south on the edge of the Sahara in the hands of the old regime.

Amidst mounting excitement about the latest military advances consolidating the February revolution, Libyans are today marking the 80th anniversary of the 1931 execution of Omar al-Mukhtar, hero of the resistance to Italian colonialists. Residents of Benghazi are planning a big rally to commemorate him.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's prime minister, has meanwhile arrived in Tripoli as part an "Arab Spring" tour that took him to Egypt and Tunisia earlier this week, and which he has been using to promote Turkey's ambitious regional role and drum up business. Turkish media reported complaints that the long-planned had been deliberately upstaged by Nicholas Sarkozy and David Cameron on Thursday.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...



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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
58. Evacuation of sub-Saharan migrants stranded in Sabha delayed by NTC vetting--Reuters
AJE Live Blog posts this:


Reuters: Libya's National Transitional Council (NTC) is insisting on vetting 3,000 mainly sub-Saharan migrants stranded in the southern town of Sabha before they are evacuated abroad because it wants to ensure that none were mercenaries fighting for deposed leader Muammar Gaddafi, an aid agency said on Friday.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-16-2011-1...



The very brief Reuters report includes this quote from Jumbe Omari Jumbe, spokesman of the International Organization for Migration (IOM):



"We have to stop all the evacuation process for the time being because the NTC says they have to make sure of the migrants, to register them and to identify who is a real migrant and who is not," he said.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KG10820...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. Reuters update with more details:
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #61
76. ADVISORY-Story on Libyan migrants withdrawn (based on INCORRECT INFO)

Sept 16 (Reuters) - The story "Libyan authorities to vet African migrants-IOM" was based on incorrect information from the IOM and is withdrawn. There will be no substitute. STORY_NUMBER: L5E7KG1E7 STORY_DATE: 16/09/2011 STORY_TIME: 1151 GMT

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KG1E720...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
60. Libyan government fighters move on besieged towns
(WRAPUP 4)




Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:40am GMT


Interim govt fighters push into besieged towns

Turkish leader in Tripoli, staking claim

NATO rebuffs Gaddafi aide's claims of civilian deaths


By Maria Golovnina and Alexander Dziadosz


BANI WALID/SIRTE, Libya, Sept 16 (Reuters) - The forces of Libya's new leaders attacked two besieged towns on Friday, storming into Bani Walid and pushing forward at Sirte, as they tried to finish off resistance from diehard supporters of Muammar Gaddafi.

At Bani Walid, a bastion of tribal loyalists in the desert 180 km (110 miles) southeast of Tripoli, a Reuters correspondent watched anti-Gaddafi fighters move forward under mortar, rocket and sniper fire, advancing from house to house and sheltering behind walls as shrapnel and bullets flew.

Though the forces of the National Transitional Council (NTC) said they took a key valley leading to the centre, the defence remained ferocious after a two-week siege of the town where senior figures in the old government may have taken refuge.

On the outskirts of Sirte, Gaddafi's birthplace on the Mediterranean coast, another Reuters correspondent watched scores of trucks mounted with heavy machineguns, as well as four tanks, advancing on the sprawling seaside city.

Explosions, rapid gunfire and the scream of heavy rockets came from the centre of the city as black clouds of smoke curled into the sky above. NATO planes roared overhead.

...


Much more detail at link:
http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KF3X220...




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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
62. CNN's Ben Wedeman is reporting from a captured airbase in the South, toward Sabha

Al-Jazeera has broadcast pictures from the outskirts of Bani Walid. It says NTC troops have made it into the town but fighting is continuing.

As the offensives on Bani Walid and Sirte continue, CNN's Ben Wedeman has been travelling with forces loyal to Libya's new rulers travelling towards the third remaining Gaddafi stronghold, Sabha, in the south. The video includes footage of Al-Amin Shtawy, who returned to Libya a few weeks ago from studying banking and finance in the UK to join the resistance, and is pictured shooting at a poster of Gaddafi and then stamping his feet on it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...


In Wedeman's live report on CNN, he said the rebel fighters plan to remain for a couple days at the airbase they captured at Jalud before pushing South to Sabha.

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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
67. Libyan fighters press into Gadhafi strongholds

By HADEEL AL-SHALCHI and RYAN LUCAS - Associated Press | AP 14 mins ago


SIRTE, Libya (AP) Libyan revolutionary forces escalated offensives Friday into two key strongholds of Moammar Gadhafi's rule, but met stiff resistance from snipers and loyalist gunners in Gadhafi's hometown and a mountain enclave where a pro-regime radio station urged followers to fight to the end.


The assault on Gadhafi's Mediterranean birthplace of Sirte and the strategic mountain town of Bani Walid appeared to be a coordinated campaign to break the back of regime holdouts. The attacks came as powerful revolutionary backers from the West and Muslim world urged on the anti-Gadhafi forces.

...


In Sirte the hub of a loyalist belt across Libya's central coast revolutionary units pressed their attack on two fronts with convoys that include vehicles mounted with anti-aircraft guns. Loyalist responded with sniper attacks and rocket barrages.


Smoke rise from parts of the city, where the green flags of Gadhafi's regime flew from mosques and buildings. The Misrata Military Council, which is coordinating the revolutionary offensive, said anti-Gadhafi forces had control of the old airport on the western edge of Sirte.

...


Abdel Salam, a fighter on the frontline near Sirte, said his side lost 11 men late Thursday when their bus drove over a roadside bomb. He said at least 18 fighters were detained by Gadhafi loyalists after they were ambushed at the entrance of Sirte.

...


More details on Bani Walid and Sabha at link:
http://news.yahoo.com/libyan-fighters-press-gadhafi-str...




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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
69. Mustafa Abdel Jalil, at an event in Tripoli with Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan, said:

We are looking forward to a democratic Islamic country that will make use of the experiments of the Turkish. Islam is really able to boost and support the economy and tackle the main elements for the good of the people.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-16-2011-1...




Erdogan's speech...: "I believe in their hearts. The people of Sirte also have this support for their movement. They're just hoping and asking that there is no more delay and no more need for any more blood to be shed so we can hold kind of meetings that we are holding here in Sirte as well .. The NTC may encounter difficultes. But Libya belongs to the people of Libya and must remain continue to belong to the people of Libya and never turn into an Iraq."

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-16-2011-1...




Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught, reporting from Libya, said, "(Erdogan) talked about how the age of tyranny and dictatorship is over".

"Basically, Erdogan said to the people of Sirte, 'Come and join the party, since there is no reason why you'd stand outside of this. Join your brothers in Tripoli and Benghazi'."

"He's watching what we are watching, the final conclusive battles for Libya,"
our correspondent said.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-16-2011-1...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
70. SYRIA: Up to 28 people have been killed in today's protest
From The Guardian's Live Blog:


Up to 28 people have been killed in today's protest in Syria, according to activists. The Local Coordination Committee of Syria breaks down the number of people killed by location: 14 in Idlib, six in Hama, three in Homs, two in Damascus, two in Daraa and one in a suburb of Damascus.

AP puts today's death toll at 17, citing the London-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
71. UN Gen. Assembly committee recommends acceptance of NTC rep as Libya ambassador
From latestbreakingnews.com:


UN General Assembly credentials committee recommends acceptance of NTC representative as Libya ambassador - @ajenglish

2:39PM GMT Sep 16, 2011


Here's the AJE post:


Fri, 16 Sep 2011, 15:25 GMT+3 - Libya

The UN General Assembly credentials committee has recommended that the GA accept the NTC representative, Abdurrahman Mohamed Shelgham, as the ambassador of Libya.

But it is expected that Venezuela will force a vote on the issue, which if passed, would allow for the NTC representatives to regain the Libyan seat at the UN, and would also allow will interim PM Mahmoud Jibril to speak at the General Assembly next week.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-16-2011-1...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
72. POTUS will meet w/ Libyan TNC Chair Mustafa Abdel Jalil while in NYC nxt wk.
From latestbreakingnews.com:


@ShawnaNBCNews

POTUS will meet w/ Libyan TNC Chair Mustafa Abdel Jalil while in NYC nxt wk. US recognizes TNC as legit gov, but UN meeting abt that now.

3:03PM GMT Sep 16, 2011


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. Obama to meet Libya's interim leader in New York--AFP

AFP 4 mins 46 secs ago

US President Barack Obama will meet Libya's interim leader, Mustafa Abdel Jalil, on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly in New York on Tuesday, the White House said Friday.

The meeting with the leader of the National Transitional Council will come as Western nations pledge to stand by Libya's rebels as they build up their government after overthrowing Moamer Kadhafi.

"The president will have the opportunity to congratulate chairman Jalil on the success of the Libyan people of ending the Kadhafi regime," said Ben Rhodes, a deputy US national security advisor.
...

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-meet-libyas-interim-leader-...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
74. The NTC flag has been raised on a government building in Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte

The National Transitional Council flag has been raised on a government building in Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte, according to both al-Arabiya and al-Jazeera Arabic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
75. Erdogan stepped up his rhetoric against Syria's Bashar al-Assad, Reuters reports
From The Guardian's Live Blog:


Erdogan stepped up his rhetoric against Syria's Bashar al-Assad, Reuters reports.

Erdogan told a cheering crowd in Tripoli that by ousting Muammar Gaddafi the Libyan people had set an example to others seeking to throw off oppression.

"You are the ones who showed the whole world that no administration can stand in the way of the might and will of the people," Erdogan said, as many chanted "Turkey, Turkey."

"Do not forget this: those in Syria who inflict repression on the people will not be able to stand on their feet because oppression and prosperity cannot exist together."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
77. Sirte unlikely to fall before nightfall--CNN correspondent

The battle for Sirte has become a matter of urban warfare, according to CNN's Phil Black reporting from the centre of the town. He said it was unlikely that Sirte would fall before night fall.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/s...

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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
78. U.S. sending more weapons experts to Libya


Officials say the US is taking an increasingly active role to secure thousands of rocket launchers, mines and small arms from Gaddafi's once vast arsenal in Libya.

The fear is that the loose weapons could either fuel an insurgency or fall into the hands of al-Qaeda or other extremists operating across North Africa.

US officials say the Obama administration is sending several additional weapons experts to Libya to help train local units to locate and destroy weapons. The US has two such contractors there already.

The focus is on the estimated 20,000 shoulder-launched missiles called MANPADs which Gadhafi assembled during his four-decade rule. The weapon can be used to shoot down helicopters or civil jetliners.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss confidential plans.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-16-2011-1...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
79. Updated AP story: Libyan fighters press into Gadhafi strongholds

By HADEEL AL-SHALCHI and RYAN LUCAS - Associated Press | AP 20 mins ago


SIRTE, Libya (AP) Libyan revolutionary forces escalated offensives Friday into two key strongholds of Moammar Gadhafi's rule, battling fierce resistance from snipers and loyalist gunners in Gadhafi's hometown and a mountain enclave where a pro-regime radio station urged followers to fight to the end.

In Sirte, Gadhafi's birthplace on the Mediterranean coast, his backers rained gunfire down from mosque minarets and high-rise buildings on fighters pushing into the city from the west, while in the streets the two sides battered each other with high-caliber machine guns, rockets, and rocket-propelled grenades.

In the strategic mountain town of Bani Walid, revolutionary fighters and Gadhafi loyalists traded relentless mortar and rocket fire across a 500-yard-wide desert valley called Wadi Zeitoun that divides the town and the two sides between north and south. Fighters dashed through alleyways to set off volleys of fire, hitting a residence that Gadhafi was building on the remains of old fort overlooking the wadi.

"The Gadhafi loyalists have so many weapons. This battle is really crazy," said Maab Fatel, a 28-year-old fighter, his uniform splattered with bloodstains from carrying a wounded comrade.

...


http://news.yahoo.com/libyan-fighters-press-gadhafi-str...




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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
80. UN approves Libya seat for former rebels
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. UN vote to seat NTC: 114 yes, 17 no, 15 abstentions

After the UNGA voted down a request by many African countries to defer a vote to allow Libyas seat to go to the NTC, they just voted to accept the NTC representatives in the General Assembly. 114 voted yes, 17 voted no and 15 abstained.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-16-2011-1...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
81. AJ: 3 ffs have just been killed and dozens injured in fierce fighting in center of Sirte nt
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
83. Libyan forces pull back after Bani Walid battles

By HADEEL AL-SHALCHI and RYAN LUCAS - Associated Press | AP 32 mins ago


BANI WALID, Libya (AP) Revolutionary forces are pulling back their fighters from outside a key loyalist stronghold after coming under fierce resistance from supporters of Moammar Gadhafi.

The retreat by anti-Gadhafi forces displayed the firepower and resolve of regime loyalists in turning back the offensive Friday in Bani Walid, about 90 miles (140 kilometers) southeast of Tripoli.

Revolutionary units are now trying to regroup on the outskirts of the town after facing snipers, mortar attacks and rocket barrages as they tried to break into the central part of Bani Walid.

The battle came as other forces tried to push into the heart of Gadhafi's hometown Sirte on the Mediterranean coast.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
...

http://news.yahoo.com/libyan-forces-pull-back-bani-wali...




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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. "We will come back later"

Columns of Libyan NTC fighters and vehicles withdrew chaotically from Bani Walid at dusk after hours of fierce fighting ended inconclusively and pro-Gaddafi forces continued to shell their positions in andaround the city, Reuters witnesses said.

"We have received orders to retreat. We have been hit by many rockets. We will come back later," NTC fighter, Assad Al Hamuri, told Reuters as he fled from the frontline.

"We need to reorganise troops and stock up on ammunition. We are waiting for orders to go back in again," said NTC fighter Saraj Abdelrazaq.

The atmosphere was frantic and shouting matches erupted among the anti-Gaddafi fighters as their forces poured out of the city amid heavy bursts of rocket fire from Gaddafi forces.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya-sep-16-2011-1...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
84. BBC reporter: 'Regular flow of ambulances' to and from Bani Walid in Libya
From latestbreakingnews.com:



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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
86. Gaddafi loyalists put Libyan forces to flight
(WRAPUP 5)




Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:35pm GMT

Interim government fighters meet stiff resistance

Turkish leader in Tripoli, staking claim

NATO rebuffs Gaddafi aide's claims of civilian deaths


By Maria Golovnina and Alexander Dziadosz


BANI WALID/SIRTE, Libya, Sept 16 (Reuters) - Diehard loyalists of Muammar Gaddafi threw rockets, mortars and heavy gunfire at Libyan fighters who pushed into two besieged towns on Friday in a bid to end months of civil war and capture key figures from the old ruling system.

The smoke of battle hung over Gaddafi's home town of Sirte, on the Mediterranean coast between Tripoli and Benghazi, and Bani Walid, a tribal stronghold in the desert, as the motley forces of the National Transitional Council (NTC) mounted their biggest advances after weeks of stalemate and skirmishing.

But the word coming back from the frontlines to Reuters correspondents on the outskirts of both cities was that fierce defence was not being overcome quickly, nearly four weeks after the rebel coalition overran Gaddafi's capital.

...


A Reuters correspondent watched anti-Gaddafi fighters move forward under mortar, rocket and sniper fire, edging from house to house and sheltering behind walls from shrapnel and bullets.

A faux-ancient castle built for Gaddafi on a hill in the centre of Bani Walid was also under attack, fighters said.

...


http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7KF3X220...




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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
87. NATO airstrikes conducted Thursday, September 15

Key Hits 15 SEPTEMBER:


In the vicinity of Sirte: 1 Military Storage Facility, 2 Armed Vehicles, 1 Tank, 4 Multiple Rocket Launchers, 8 Air Missile Systems.


In the vicinity of Waddan: 1 Multiple Rocket Launcher.


In the vicinity of Sebha: Several Armoured Vehicles, 1 Multiple Rocket Launcher, 1 Tank, 5 Armed Vehicles.


...


International Humanitarian Assistance Movements as recorded by NATO


Total of Humanitarian Movements**: 1230 (air, ground, maritime)


Ships delivering Humanitarian Assistance 15 SEPTEMBER: 2


Aircrafts delivering Humanitarian Assistance 15 SEPTEMBER: 41


**Some humanitarian movements cover several days.


http://www.nato.int/nato_static/assets/pdf/pdf_2011_09/...




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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
88. Excellent, excellent interview
KhadijaMAli Khadija Ali
This is an interview I did with the Tripoli Youth Movement on Sept. 12. #Tripoli #Libya #Feb17
3 minutes ago

English Interview - excellent, woman journalist
http://youtu.be/AWIkGMrMg1I
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
89. After a day of intense fighting, anti-Gadhafi forces pull back
STORY HIGHLIGHTS

Sirte, Sabha and Bani Walid are the last loyalist strongholds

A Libyan delegation in Niger demands the return of Saadi Gadhafi

A deadline for Bani Walid residents to leave passes



By the CNN Wire Staff

September 16, 2011 3:56 p.m. EDT


Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- Revolutionary forces attacked loyalist strongholds Friday in a failed attempt to snuff out the last remaining resistance to a post-Moammar Gadhafi Libya.

In the fallen leader's hometown of Sirte, along the Mediterranean coast, anti-Gadhafi fighters pulled back Friday night after a day of chaotic, fierce street fighting. The number of casualties was unclear.

A brigade of fighters from Misrata wrested control of the Al-Gurdabia military base and a civilian airport near the western edge of Sirte, according to the Misrata Military Council.

From the central city, anti-Gadhafi fighters retreated to the outskirts after troops loyal to Gadhafi put up strong resistance. Expected support from residents of Sirte did not materialize as loyalists fought house to house with an intensity that had not been anticipated. Revolutionary forces said they would try again Saturday.

One of Gadhafi's sons, Mutassim, the regime's national security adviser, may have been coordinating the fighting in Sirte, according to Alm Hashi, a revolutionary fighter. He said Mutassim Gadhafi's voice crackled on the radio with orders for troops loyal to his father.

...


Story and video report by Nic Robertson on Saadi Gaddafi (2:51):
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/09/16/libya.war/in...




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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
90. Anti-Gaddafi forces surge into Sahara

CNN's Ben Wedeman, traveling with anti-Gadhafi forces, encounters gunfire in the Sahara. Sep 16, 2011 | 03:12

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/09/16/wedeman-l...


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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
91. LIBYAN REVOLUTION DAY 212: CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 12:01 AM SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 17
Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, UTC +1 hour, GMT +2 hours










Inside one of Gaddafi's torture cells
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030931/Libya-I...

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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
92. The Epic Martyr Sadeq Hamed Shwehdi !
Thomas Eliot once said: There are some things about which nothing can be said and before which we dare not keep silent. When I decided to write a piece about the martyr Sadiq Hamed Shwehdi, I didnt know how to start it because it hurts in every level. Sadeq wasnt one of the thousands heroes who got the chance to fight for freedom in Libya or to smell freedom Libya; he didnt get the chance to even start a life in Libya. Sadeq Shwehdi was more than a martyr or a hero. Sadeq Shwehdi was an epic martyr who does not need a sculptured marble to his memory or engraved stone to bear record of his deeds, for his remembrance will be as lasting as the land he honored- Libya. Sadeq Shwehdi dreamt about the 17Feb Libyan revolution long since 1984, but death was much closer to him than to his dream. Many if not all know about the notorious execution of Sadeq Hamed Shwehdi in April 1984 in Benghazi in front of thousands of students who were bussed into Benghazis basketball stadium to witness a frightening hanging of a young man with curly hair and beard kneeling with his hands bound behind his back, his legs crossed and his eyes echoing sadness and fear of what is to come. Sadeq pled for his life and then when he felt his execution is inevitable, he kept begging Gaddafis thugs to see his mother for the last time but his request was coldly denied.

http://nafissa82.blogspot.com/2011/09/epic-martyr-sadeq...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
94. Daily Kos - Arab Spring revolution threads
Edited on Fri Sep-16-11 05:35 PM by tabatha
Witnessing Revolution #254
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/09/14/1016795/-Witne...

Witnessing Revolution #241: full Arab Spring updates
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/23/1009890/-Witne...

Witnessing Revolution Diary #228: Battle of Tripoli continues
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/20/1009046/-Witne...

etc
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
95. Libya: the carpet salesman leading the hunt for Muammar Gaddafi
Hisham Buhagiar hopes to reopen his carpet sales business in the next couple of weeks. He also hopes to catch Muammar Gaddafi.

Buhagiar is the closest thing the Libyans have to a chief Gaddafi hunter, though he gently points out that Libya's DIY revolution doesn't much go in for job titles. Softly spoken and quietly confident, the 47-year-old admits he is learning as he goes but predicts Gaddafi will be captured within two weeks.

"We have to catch him, but if he resists he's going to die," Buhagiar, speaking in English, said. "We have to bring him to justice. It will show the world that after all the bad things he did, we still have the law."

The autocratic leader's last public appearance was more than three months ago when he was photographed playing chess in Tripoli with Kirsan Ilyumzhinov, head of the World Chess Federation. His Pimpernel-like vanishing act remains the main unfinished business of the revolution. Buhagiar's operatives, however, claim to have seen Gaddafi twice this week near the southern city of Sabha.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/16/libya-hunt-...
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
98. UN Security Council Eases Sanctions On Libya
Source: Sky News



9:53pm UK, Friday September 16, 2011

The UN Security Council has voted to ease sanctions on Libya to help the country rebuild following its civil war.


The 15-nation council voted unanimously for a resolution that also establishes a UN mission in Libya.

It lifts all sanctions against the Libyan National Oil Corporation and Zueitina Oil Company in a bid to help kickstart the economy.

It also partly eases sanctions against the central bank and other Libyan institutions, although special approval will still be needed to unfreeze their seized assets.

An arms embargo will remain in place, but Libya's interim government and the UN will be allowed to import light weapons to maintain security.

The resolution establishes a UN mission for an initial three months but does not call for peacekeepers or police to be deployed.

The no-fly zone will remain in place, although diplomats say Libyan civil airlines will be allowed to fly provided they notify monitors of their flight plans.

...


http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16070776




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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
99. Libya & Middle East crisis in graphics
http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/11/02/MiddleEast.htm...

Very interesting. If I had the time, I would extract those that point to the nonsense of the claim of war for oil.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
100. Libyan employees 'saved oil, gas sector,' oil minister says
BREGA, Libya When Moammar Gadhafi's loyalists fled this sprawling refinery and petrochemical complex in late August, shortly after Tripoli fell, they left behind lethal "forget-me-nots" for the revolutionaries who unseated him.

There were 40,000 mines, both anti-personnel and anti-tank. A minefield still surrounds the town, and 6,000 mines were planted on what had been a popular beach. The grounds are littered with shells filled with explosives, plant officials said.

Russian-supplied Grad rockets were stacked by the thousands inside the methanol plant, still in their wooden cases, at a location that loyalists no doubt assumed NATO aircraft wouldn't bomb. Grads, which have a range of 25 miles, had been launched from Brega in banks of 40, with devastating impact on the forces trying to overthrow Gadhafi, officials of the national oil company said.

The refinery and liquid gas plant, a component of the Sirte Oil Co. named for Gadhafi's hometown farther west on Libya's main coastal road is now the only business in town because the departing forces destroyed both other sources of income.

"They erased all the small businesses. They killed all the livestock," Ali Tarhouni, the rebels' minister of finance and oil, said during a tour of the facility.

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/09/16/124370/libyan-emp...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
101. Want some fiction - Why Nigerians were massacred in Libya Okoduwa
Edited on Fri Sep-16-11 07:33 PM by tabatha
What happened was that some people protested in the city of Benghazi and Gaddafi invited them for a meeting to solve the problem. They demanded that they wanted the sanction on the banned Islamic groups in the country who were imprisoned without trial to be lifted. These imprisoned people are seen as radicals and Gaddafi believed that if he allowed them to operate, they would definitely work with Al-Qaida and that would be a big problem for Libya. So, what he did was to arrest these people and dump them in prison. So the people of Benghazi demanded that these people must be released, that they are not criminals. Based on that, the people of Benghazi threatened to cause problem unless those 100 people were released from prison. Due to the pressure, Gaddafi now freed thousands of prisoners including the 100 Islamic scholars in prison. So a lot of Nigerians who were in prison benefited from that gesture. We have had over 4000 Nigerians in Libyan prisons. Some of them were drug peddlers, illegal immigrants and things like that. Some of them were imprisoned for 20-25 years. But after that, they told Gaddafi that releasing those people would not end the problem and that they wanted salary increase. So, he doubled their salary thinking he would use the money to buy their conscience.

Even after increasing their salaries, he told every family to go to the bank and collect the equivalent of $500. But the people of Benghazi refused to collect the money and Gaddafi now said that since they refused the money, even when he had released members of the Islamic group , it means they are now rebels. So he sent some fighters from Tripoli to go and bomb these protesters in Benghazi but when the soldiers got there ,they could not. They informed the people of what they came for and escaped to Malta.

ai yaya yaya yaya - as my Xhosa friend would say. That is some long story.

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2011/09/why-nigerians-were-m... /
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
102. Gaddafi's secrets - Luxury and terror
Saturday, 17.09.2011 | 00:15 - 00:30 clock (15 minutes)

Now that Gaddafi is distributed to the prison gates, the miles of bunkers and the Secret Service headquarters but also open the doors of the summer residences of the Gaddafi family.

a system is becoming increasingly clear the most brutal exercise of power mixed with unbridled luxury. Had to leave while in the secret torture chambers of the system are probably tens of thousands of political prisoners of their lives, the Gaddafi clan hilarious in abundance. Gold taps, large pool areas, parks to relax. Libya is changing. Now is the time for journalistic clues. You should bring Gaddafi secrets revealed.

Joerg Stefan Armbruster and book now turn to completely foreclosed places the power of the eccentric dictator, and speak with victims of his nearly 42 years of rule. Components of the report are secret torture centers, such as the notorious Abu Salim prison for political prisoners. Thousands were here, according killed to human rights organizations.

The search for clues leads also in the intelligence headquarters, in the mile-long tunnel system under the capital Tripoli, which is like a city under the city, but also in the residences of the family and in Qadhafi's luxury airplane

http://www.eins-extra.de/tv/Gaddafis-Geheimnisse/2011-0...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
103. Haha. ANONYMOUS shuts down mathaba.net
RRowleyTucson Robert Rowley
Terrorist pro #Gaddafi website mathaba.net remains down. THANK YOU ANONYMOUS!!! #Libya #Feb17
13 minutes ago
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
104. Former Polisario Official Exposes Before UNHRC Human Rights Abuses in Tindouf Camps
Morocco: Former Polisario Official Exposes Before UNHRC Human Rights Abuses in Tindouf Camps
16 September 2011


Geneva Zighem Bayat, a former polisario official, laid bare, Thursday before the UN Human Rights Council (HRC), the human rights violations spreading in the polisario-run camps of Tindouf (Algeria's south-west).

It is unfortunate, said Zighem, speaking at the 18th HRC session, that the polisario camps continue to be the scene of the most sordid human rights violations, in the absence of any international protection.

He urged, in this respect, the Council to discharge its obligations towards the population sequestered in these camps, calling for an end to these inhumane practice that only linger the suffering and oppression of the camps' population.

Having himself lived in the camps and was a member of the polisario, Zighem claimed to have witnessed practices that include forcible confinement, denial of the right of detainees to return to their home areas, embezzlement of humanitarian aid and rejection of the population census.

All these practices, he denounced, take place in a climate of fear that the polisario militia have spread for over thirty years.

The speaker also said that the population held againg their will in the polisario camps expect the Council to give them a hope for an end to these atrocities and return with their families to Morocco southern region.

http://allafrica.com/stories/201109161123.html
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
105. The Role of Algeria in Libya
Algeria is soon scheduled to host a conference, with the presence of Western diplomats, on the danger of terrorist activities in the aftermath of the Arab revolutions. Although there is, of course, the danger of Islamists emerging taking effectively to take over the region, the Algerian government hardly seems to be the suitable interlocutor in matters relating to either counterterrorism or democracy.

When members of the Gaddafi family, according to media reports, escaped to Algeria.at the end of August -- when Muammar Gaddafi's second wife, Safia; two of his sons, Mohammed and Hannibal, and his daughter Aisha managed to cross the border and find refuge in the neighboring country -- not only did the Libyan rebels consider the Algerian government's hospitality towards the Gaddafis an act of aggression; the same opinion was shared by the Algerian opposition, who accused Algerian government of trying to suppress any popular democratic hopes.
...

The Polisario

The Polisario is a politico-military organization currently fighting Morocco to take control of the former Western Sahara, currently under Morocco's sovereignty, and win independence for that region. According to a source from the Libyan National Transitional Council (NTC), on the French website, geotribune.com, some 556 fighters belonging to the Polisario Front have been apprehended by the forces of the NTC.

http://www.hudson-ny.org/2430/algeria-libya
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
106. K&R
Keep up the good work,folks.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
107. Have you seen this, Josh?


I know you're working on it. Just couldn't resist squeezing in a Jimmypic before you post the new thread. No pressure, buddy.

:evilgrin:

Now CHEER UP, dammit!

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Ha! Week 31 here:
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