Forget harping on Bush's tax cuts for the rich.

[dkf]

There is so much more we can do that would seem pretty darn reasonable to the average person.

How's about a millionaires tax at 38%, another bracket at $5 million at 43% another bracket at $10 million at 47%, another bracket at $100 million at 50%, a billion at 60% and on and on.

And you could stop favorable cap gains treatment at say $2 million.

And here is the biggie...phase out exemptions and deductions. Let's face it...some of this charity money is better served in our hands if it is used to keep the country solvent.

Limiting our imaginations to getting rid of the Bush cuts is silly.

[phasma ex machina]

1. America needs to take the people's money back from the banksters. nt

[niceypoo]

2. Republican policies are responsible for almost 100% of the national debt

Supply side is responsible for the lions share of it. It is a failed policy and it has driven us to the brink of bankruptcy.

Supply side economics is not capitalism. Supply side economics drives wages down. It is time for it to go away, period.

[mindwalker_i]

3. How about taxing capital gains as income?

It pisses me off that people who DON"T DO ANYTHING get lower taxes than those of us who make shit.

[dkf]

4. Except if you pay cap gains and then you lose it all the next year.

The Govt only credits you $3000 on losses a year.

If the Govt gave us back the taxes when we lose money then I hate to see what tax receipts would have looked like after the crash.

But cap gains in super excessive amounts is probably hedge fund manager payouts. That is the money we need to tax.

[Hannah Bell]

13. you pay capital gains tax when you *sell* an asset, so talking about "losing" it

is nonsensical.

you're thinking of dividend income. i guess.

but you pay taxes only on the dividends, not on the investment.

so again, you can't "lose" the dividend unless you roll it over.

and if you lose it the next year, you don't have to pay tax on dividends because you don't have any.

just like if you lose your job you don't have to pay income tax.

why should there be a low rate for investment income & a higher one for labor income?

[dkf]

15. Back in they trading heyday a friend of a friend took $20,000 and made $177,000 in cap gains

Didn't set aside anything for taxes. The next year, what he had reinvested in crashed in the dotcom bubble. So he has to pay gains on $177,000 and he lost it all.

Those were all short term gains too so no favorable tax treatment and it was at Clinton rates too.

I think he was financially ruined because you can't get out of paying taxes.

[Hannah Bell]

16. the guy made a profit on stock he sold and didn't pay the lousy 15% tax on it.

he put it back in the market & lost it.

i'm supposed to feel sorry?

not paying the tax had nothing to do with it.

you say he made $177K, tax on it would have been tops about $26k.

[dkf]

17. It was back in the Clinton days and those were all short term gains.

So no it wasn't taxed at the measily 15% bracket but it reached at the higher tax brackets which was 39% plus another 10% for state taxes.

Back then if you sold $230,000 in stock with $177,000 in gains you shouldn't use all those funds to buy more stock but should set aside a sizeable % to go to Uncle Sam.

The guy wasn't an experienced trader. He hadn't made so much money before so he was completely unprepared for it. He also didn't realize the market would plunge and he wouldn't have anything left to pay taxes.

[Hannah Bell]

20. uh, no, capital gains tax wasn't 39% under clinton. that was the tax for regular income.

top rate for cap gains was 28% when clinton took office & he reduced it to 20%.

The Tax Reform Act of 1986 repealed the exclusion of long-term gains, raising the maximum rate to 28 percent (33 percent for taxpayers subject to phaseouts).<3>

When the top ordinary tax rates were increased by the 1990 and 1993 budget acts, an alternative tax rate of 28 percent was provided.<3>

Effective tax rates exceeded 28 percent for many high-income taxpayers, however, because of interactions with other tax provisions.<3>

The new lower rates for 18-month and five-year assets were adopted in 1997 with the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax_in_the_United_States

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/regcg.pdf

Notes: The definition of taxable income varied very substantially over the years. Taxable income is much less than actual income.



but regardless, the taxes aren't the reason the guy lost the money. he lost it because the market tanked. too bad. no different from losing your job because the marketeers played games.

[Hannah Bell]

12. rates of 0-5-15 for cap gains & dividend income were part of the bush deal.

& yeah, it's a travesty that coupon clippers pay less than working people.

[aquart]

5. And we'll put these through how? Wishing on a star?

ALL WE HAD TO DO WAS NOTHING AND THE BUSH CUTS WOULD GO AWAY. It was that simple. And we blew it.

[xchrom]

6. +1

[dkf]

8. I'm just saying there is no reason to obsess on those particular cuts as the only thing out there.

[Hannah Bell]

14. they're the only thing out there for the next two years. that's the deal they made.

[unlawflcombatnt]

18. Amen

You've said it all.

[highprincipleswork]

7. Fine, but, all we had to do...

That's all well and good, but, for this one we only had to do nothing. We had to let the existing tax cuts expire. That's all that had to be done.

Instead, this President decides that something needs to be done. And in doing it, he didn't consult with House or Senate. He did not play from a strong hand. He met with Republicans behind closed doors, and as some Congresspeople have said, he gave away the store.

He opened the doors for further attacks on Social Security. He caved on tax cuts for the wealthy, which have never been shown to produce jobs. He contributed to the general belief, mistaken as it is, that trickle-down economics actually works.

What a mess!!!

I believe we should all be writing each and every Democratic Representative, and perhaps Republicans too, to discredit this tax bill and see what we can do to prevent it from passing. I know it seems hopeless, but that is what I am doing.

All we had to do was let them expire.

Unemployment benefits? What the heck does that have to do with tax cuts? Treat it as a totally separate issue, non-negotiable.

All your fine ideas, and they are fine, how well do you think they are going to fly with the numbers we have in the next Congress? Wow. All we had/have to do is let them expire. Seems like a pretty simple task, compared to the potential ugliness of the next few years.

Thanks a lot, Mr. President.

[Hannah Bell]

9. The Bush tax cuts reduced the top marginal rate from 39.6 to 34.

And capital gains/dividend income to 0-5-15.

So when you say, "forget about the bush cuts, we could tax millionaires at 38%" you seem to misunderstand the situation.

[dkf]

10. I'm just throwing out numbers. Of course they could be adjusted for any tier at any rate.

The point is a lot of different things could be addressed through getting outside the Bush Tax Box thinking.

I know that you for one are concerned about the concentration of wealth. Why is the estate tax at one flat rate? It could be tiered just like anything else.

[Hannah Bell]

11. what you're saying makes no sense to me. the admin just made a deal to extend the bush tax cuts.

you say, oh, don't concern yourself with that, we can raise taxes.

they just made a deal to keep them low for two years.

[demmiblue]

19. They are not Bush's tax cuts for the rich anymore. They are Obama's. n/t