“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” - Barack Obama

[Still a Democrat]

Saw the thread about the Democratic election chart with the bullseyes, thought I'd throw this out for discussion.

Thoughts?

[Zoeisright]

1. He was talking about fighting against repuke lies and stupidity.

NOT explicitly targeting someone, and NOT telling people to use their guns to kill others.

Sheesh.

[MH1]

6. I know that ... but could someone link to context?

it would be easier to reply to the yahoos if I had the link.

[WinkyDink]

93. Google?

[Goblinmonger]

2. This won't go well for you.

Just letting you know. Personally, I agree that the rhetoric comes from both sides. Perhaps more vocally now from the right, I'll admit.

[seabeyond]

8. perhaps? two examples is ALL anyone can come up with. one a target, not a weapon

a scope of a gun pointed at person implies death. a target, is just that, a target.

one time obama said that. once. that is all. and shame on him

perhaps???? the right is more vocal. just perhaps?

[Goblinmonger]

47. 2 examples?

Don't even try to be silly about it.

How about the "Kill Sarah Palin" group on Facebook which has hopefully been taken down?

How about the "I'm sad when I wake up and Sarah Palin isn't dead" group on Facebook which was still up an hour ago?

We do not do a service to ourselves when we refuse to admit that people on both sides engage in this rhetoric. Only then can we get to the point that theirs is worse. It's like telling kids that smoking pot will make them a raging lunatic (a la Reefer Madness). They know it's bullshit so they won't listen to you about the real harms.

[EOTE]

55. Yeah, because some nuts on facebook are exactly the same as prominent politicians

and right wing media nuts. It's really sad to see those on the left so completely willing to make the same false equivalencies that the right have been aching to trot out. Way to make their job easier for them.

[Goblinmonger]

59. Left wing "media nut" Craig Kilborn

put up the "assassins wanted" graphic over W. It happens. I'm not saying they are the same but the rhetoric that it doesn't happen on our side is silly. And helps us not.

[fishwax]

65. it was "snipers wanted" not "assassins wanted"

I don't think Craig Kilborn is a great example, though, because he's not exactly a liberal icon (if he's even particularly liberal at all -- I don't know).

The graphic was certainly uncalled for, though, and was, appropriately, investigated.

[EOTE]

90. Seriously?

10 years ago some has-been late night host makes a stupid skit and that's the best you can do? It DOESN'T happen on our side. A few random silly comments made over the course of DECADES does not equal the non-stop hate coming from the right. All the attempts to create an equivalence are downright stupid.

[LanternWaste]

76. And what about the consistent pattern of violent speech

And what about the consistent pattern of violent speech used and exploited by Democrats running for office or progressives on the air? Oh, wait...

[MN Independent]

86. There are more than two examples out there.

Both sides need to mellow out a little and just have decent discussions on the topic of the day. Both sides also need to realize that they sometimes are wrong and need to listen to the other side for the good of our country.

Here are your examples:

1) "A spoiled child (Bush) is telling us our Social Security isn’t safe anymore, so he is going to fix it for us. Well, here’s your answer, you ungrateful whelp:

[RockaFowler]

94. This post needs to be removed

Half of the people on your list are not Democratic Leaders and some of them aren't even Democrats. Opie & Anthony are not Democrats and have for the last few days been belittling the Democrats any chance they get. #16 is not attributed to Loughner, but nice try.

[seabeyond]

96. thanks. i didnt recognize most of the people and the one i didnt didnt say shit so wasnt

relevent

[sadbear]

3. Another broken promise

He only brings sling shots to knife fights.

[Poboy]

9. Now THIS is a good reply. One I would have made had you not.

Ha, another broken promise.

[Brickbat]

72. Heh, excellent.

Right on.

[DireStrike]

73. I think you mean blindfolds

And a doctor, in case he accidentally injures his opponent.

[Whoa_Nelly]

4. The inflammatory rhetoric has to stop all the way 'round.

Period.

[formernaderite]

54. you really think the crazy kid was influencd by any of this?

I'm really surprised people are falling for this. This is starting to get insane, particularly when everyone is acting that as if in the history of political discourse we have never there has never been as much anger and vitriol a now. Poppycock!
And you know what? I don't want us all to get along! I enjoy the fights!

This tragedy committed by one crazy person.... should have NO effect on the language or the battles we fight daily. I don't believe this kid was influenced by anyone but the voices in his head.

If people really think that speech is leading to violence? Where is it? Wouldn't we have countless tragedies occuring daily?

[Whoa_Nelly]

88. I didn't say that

I made a simple statement. That's all.
No inferences or reading between the lines (or rather over or under my one line) to be seen at all.
I do not understand the response, but somehow my one simple one-line statement has greater meaning to others.

oh well.

[hlthe2b]

5. Your "concern" is noted.

[Exultant Democracy]

77. +1

[Bragi]

7. Thoughts?

I thought it was a dumb thing to say when I first heard it, and it hasn't become any less dumb in recent days.

[wtmusic]

10. Same shit. nt

[uppityperson]

11. inflammatory rhetoric has to stop, all the way around.

[live love laugh]

63. "All the way around" my ass. The statement in this thread is general. Palin & Co's. threats aren't

Bullseyes on a map are specific. Lock and load is an instruction--no "if"s no hesitation about it.

[uppityperson]

70. They don't compare, that is true. eom

[Sinistrous]

12. Meaning, of course, that we will trump their arguments,

not literally shoot them. Sometimes speech is figurative. Especially if the speaker is civilized and responsible.

[Still a Democrat]

14. I'm sure right would call their figurative as well n/t

[Sinistrous]

31. Which is why I added the requirement to evaluate the character

of the speaker. Guess that went over your head. Sorry.

[liberal N proud]

13. He did not repeat it continuously

Nor did he have a map of opponents with cross-hairs pointed at them.

Don't defend these right wing hate machines.

[27inCali]

15. unfortunate choice of words in retrospect

but nothing like the systematic way the GOP has filled their people with fear and paranoia and fomented violence.

[sufrommich]

16. It was a pop culture reference from The Untouchables. nt

[sadbear]

17. Yep

[Bragi]

26. Really?

Can you source that? It would help explain it.

[Bragi]

29. Nevermind

Google tells the story...

[Ichingcarpenter]

30. Sean Connery 1st said that in the 1987 movie 'The Untouchables"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094226/quotes

[Poboy]

33. Right. It was said by Sean Connery, in him explaining to Ness, 'the Chicago way'.

[JohnnyLib2]

18. He probably regrets it, right now.

[seabeyond]

22. probably will even make a point of saying he regrets it. lets see. more than rw is doing

no one is asking right to pretend they didnt say it. no one is demanding that we pretend it is not inciteful language. we are saying, recognize what you do, own it and stop.

is the right doing this..... not at all. not even. not kinda.

olberman did. the one that was on his shoulders. not only apologized in the past but called himself out again this weekend. THAT is what the left is asking for.

that is ALL. that is not asking a whole lot of our people in the wake of these deaths.

(most of the post not to you, just piggybacked this rant off your post)

[JohnnyLib2]

I agree, overload from the right.

Limbaugh is laying it on today, of course.

[Warren DeMontague]

19. Doody!

[Enrique]

20. dumb comment, and his predator drone joke was much worse

use predator drones against the Jonas Brothers, ha ha ha.

[devilgrrl]

83. +1

eom

[ProSense]

21. Here:

Politico attempts to blame President Obama

FLASHBACK: Dems offer to dial back violent rhetoric, GOP says NO!

Before Shooting, A Campaign Season Rife With Gun Rhetoric

Target Practice...

Machine Gun Social...

Armed and Fiscally Responsible...

Shooting With The Candidate...

Our Nation Was Founded On Violence...

Take No Prisoners...

Gather Your Armies...

Cleaning My Guns...

Second Amendment Remedies...

Armed And Dangerous...

We Hunt Democrats...

Ballots & Bullets...

Dead Aim...

[deutsey]

23. More accurately, he should've said: if we gear up for a rough game of hockey

they come armed for combat.

[blondeatlast]

43. Good one. nt

[seabeyond]

24. now.... hit all the media and rw boards and find any posters suggesting there party was DUMB in

saying ALL there violent rhetoric was not a good thing.

another difference between the two parties.

[woo me with science]

25. People are blurring real threats with stupid metaphors and symbols.

This is the same kind of thinking that produces "zero tolerance" policies that get kids expelled for drawing a bloody picture or carrying a GI Joe gun to school. It is the kind of thinking that gets stupid laws passed limiting our speech and our freedoms, in the guise of "protecting" us.

We have ALWAYS used battle metaphor for politics, just as we use it for sports. It rarely means that you actually want your opponent to be shot.

We must try to use common sense in evaluating each example, not throw everything into the same category and rule out all rhetoric that EVER mentions a gun or warfare.

There is a lot of purposeful disingenuousness in this argument by people trying to score points for their own side.

[tigereye]

52. we use battle metaphors for everything!

[Kurovski]

27. Liberals don't use gun analogies.

Obama did.

That's my thought.

[crim son]

28. Yeah, I did this yesterday with the Democratic version of the target map.

A whole bunch of us are in denial, and I don't mean just on DU.

[seabeyond]

37. two. two events able to call up. not comparative, but to kinda sorta alike. and you want BOTH

sides? from that? we both do it? from that?

that is hardly denial, more like rational thinking. common sense.

[crim son]

91. I'm not looking at it as comparative. I'm looking at it as a practical means

for disposing of the argument that we are hypocrites. I don't understand what is so terrifying about honesty, especially in the face of the sickening dishonesty of the other side i.e. I don't understand your argument though I've certainly heard it a hundred times in the last couple days.

[seabeyond]

97. because i think it is dishonest to take two examples and say, ya, we both do it. and if we dont

say we both do it, without any clarification, then we are hypocrites. because we dont both do it. there is NO comparison.

i guess i can say, why are you so terrified (though that sounds incredibly stupid so maybe i shouldnt say it) of the truth.

when saying both, you walk away from honesty

[jpak]

32. Republicans still suck ass

thoughts?

[sadbear]

41. Careful that we don't get accused of creating a pornographic environment

That would be way worse than a violent one.

[madmax]

34. oops wrong thread.

[TwilightGardener]

35. Movie quote. But if you can show a pattern by Obama or any Democrat, I'll give you the point.

[seabeyond]

38. +1. nt

[Xenotime]

36. Everybody knows Obama isn't incinting violence like the right does.

[Poboy]

39. Because everybody now knows his words are empty and mean jack shit.

[getting old in mke]

40. Hoyt Axton

I think the context was trying to explain Chicago politics.

I assumed he was referring to Hoyt Axton's song "Jealous Man". There's an odd way that it seems fitting for Chicago politics--and odd love song.

Not a country fan, but I loved WKRP in Cincinnati where he sang it to Johnny Fever.

"You've got the knife, I've got the gun,
Come out boy & we'll have a little fun.
I'm a jealous man..."

1989 interview. Song about a minute into the clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttOrWdIjNwM

[Erose999]

42. It was a movie quote. And even in the metaphorical sense that statement was never realized. nt

[Vinnie From Indy]

44. My thoughts?

The OP is merely a ridiculous right-wing talking point. Post a single comment from President Obamaor a single comment from some other Dem or Progressive and then claim that both sides do it. Complete and total bullshit!

Get back to us for this discussion after the left gets its own 24/7 hate spewing network (FOX) AND a Clear Channel radio network pumping Rush Limbaugh violence inspiring rhetoric to every square inch of America five days a week. Sure, we can discuss this issue of hate speech being equal all day long after we on the left get hundreds of Rush Limbaugh wannabe local right winger radio hosts from coast to coast. And, it goes on and on!

In short, the OP is complete nonsense and it is ridiculous on its face. There is no equivalency in scale at all!

[seabeyond]

45. OP is complete nonsense and it is ridiculous on its face.

exactly.

[Poboy]

51. Yes. An isolated comment, never repeated, compared to the DAILYmegablasting

of entire right wing network(s) in print, TV and radio, of loud mouths who threaten violence.

[tigereye]

46. well, it does raise questions about metaphor, I suppose

Where is the line between symbolic language and reality? When is it crossed? There was a really good analysis on The News Hour last night with the communication prof Kathleen Jamieson from Philly and a professor from Yale.

[CJCRANE]

48. I'm sure he'd be the first to admit it was an inartful comment

but it wasn't a specific threat to anyone.

[Last_Stand]

49. In a country...

that believes "dancing with the stars" is the best show on television, I think you'll have a hard time explaining to people the not-so-subtle differences between the right-wing's constant usage of violent language and this single comment from the president.

[Catherina]

50. Touche but it needs to stop now. Both sides. I'm getting sick of BOTH SIDES.

The majority of people who vote Republican aren't hateful people. The frenzied offensive by some Liberals to throw everything and any old thing out there just hoping something sticks just puts Republicans on the defensive, rallying around the hate speakers, for NO strategic gain.

This is some of the dumbest, most offensive, most juvenile, shit I've ever seen on the internet.

[kctim]

81. Bravo!

[ScreamingMeemie]

53. ...and then he listed a bunch of names of "knife bringers" for us to

"gun down", right? Wait? What?

[CakeGrrl]

56. It was a quote from "The Untouchables", him being from Chicago and all.

But his critics and detractors will have to decide the direction from which to criticize: Is he a gun nut, or is he that socialist/communist who was slammed for commenting that some people "cling to their guns and religion" who therefore wants to take our guns away?

[Crankie Avalon]

57. Sounds like he's been watching "The Untouchables", again. nt

[guitar man]

58. Unfortunately

When it was time to fight, they brought a rocket launcher and he brought one of these

[kestrel91316]

60. Please provide a link to the original quote. IIRC it went more like this:

"You don't bring a knife to a gunfight", which speaks to making sure you are on a level playing field, and prepared to give as good as you get, defensively.

So DO please provide a link to YOUR version. I'll be waiting.

[Still a Democrat]

80. Your wait is over!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/14/obama-on-gop-a...

[maritimer]

61. the pukes have been repeating this like a mantra for 3 days now.

total non-starter.

[uppityperson]

71. how does using dehumanizing language help?

[Arkana]

62. It's a metaphor, used once--and it's not a clarion call to shoot Republicans.

Barack Obama didn't encourage people to come to rallies armed. He didn't tell people to threaten their Congressmen, and he didn't encourage the use of "Second Amendment remedies".

Nice try.

[Scout]

64. *If* they bring a knife, we bring a gun. If they don't bring a knife, we won't bring a gun.

seems pretty self explanatory and non-threatening.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

66. Sounds like reasonable SELF-DEFENSE, nothing more.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

67. Yeah, Indiana Jones did it! LOL!

[The Straight Story]

68. If some had their ways we would not be able to buy a gun to fight with, we would be victims

[The Gunslinger]

69. If I want RW talking points I'll turn on Fox News

[hugo_from_TN]

74. Exactly. Please leave the echo chamber!

[madwivoter]

75. Come on.

First of all, google your title, you might be enlightened by the results. Second, the quote everyone seems to be throwing around is a quote from The Untouchables. Read some of the speeches in which they were given to glean some context.

Bullseyes as a reference on a political map do not equate to rifle cross hairs. They just don't.

[Goblinmonger]

78. What do you use a bullseye for?

Oh, yeah, I'm sure it was a darts reference.

[madwivoter]

87. Absolutely nothing.

Did you read the context of the quote you're throwing around?

I'll say it again. Bullseyes as a reference on a political map do not equate to rifle cross hairs.

They just don't.

[Goblinmonger]

89. I don't know what quote I'm "throwing around."

If you mean the OP, then, yes, I do know the context. And it is still rhetoric of violence. I'm sure the Republicans can make excuses, too.

Bullseyes are targets. For shooting stuff at. Being deliberately obtuse doesn't suit you well.

[Tsiyu]

79. Did he pose many, many times pointing a gun at someone?

Did he continually and repeatedly use violent metaphors to charge up his base?

In hindsight, i'm sure he would choose words more responsibly now.

To equate this one statement with the years of hate Teabaggers and Republicans have been spewing is quite the stretch, but i suppose it makes everything the Right has done perfectly okay now.


For those with their heads in the sand....

[snagglepuss]

82. A metaphor to describe the superiority of the Democratic message.

There is nothing in that statement that suggests people be targetted or advocates violence.

[devilgrrl]

84. Provide a link proving that Obama said that.

eom

[upi402]

85. Obama is a corporatist

not surprised really

[WinkyDink]

92. "If." "If." "If." "If." "If." "If." Much rides on that word, but the ignorant pretend otherwise.

[LWolf]

95. Pandering to the violent mind-set of the average citizen.

Ensuring that the war/battle/soldier symbology thrives.

[lame54]

98. You left out the rest of it...

"And then we hand it to them before the fight even starts."