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This may be a loaded question, but why DOESN'T the South get over the Civil War?

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:14 PM
Original message
This may be a loaded question, but why DOESN'T the South get over the Civil War?
I mean, if you take the fact that it was a war about slavery, that is, owning other people - and then add to it that the CSA was HARDLY the utopia Hank Williams Jr claims it woulda been (Domestic Passports, Freedom of Speech not guaranteed, thought police/religious police, etc.)...

You still have the fact that no one alive knew anyone who was killed in that war. Not on either side.

It's done. They (not you) lost. It's over.

Yeah, the Union was hardly the choirboy, but again, the war is OVER.

Why do some (note I said some - and I like to think its an oral minority) Southerners still glorify the Confederacy?

I mean, shit, you go down Monument Blvd in Richmond, VA and it's marble statue after marble statue of Confederate killers.

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Dawson Leery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. Remember what happened to them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxjzg0SE0eE&feature=rela...

Unfortunately, the "base" of the genre is still that backward.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AlabamaLibrul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Oh lord.....
:popcorn:
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JitterbugPerfume Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. My family is from the south too
but the truth is it s evil to own a human being . Obsessing over something that happened so long ago is pathological.
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Maccagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. My great-great grandfather was a farmer too
He fought for the Union (Indiana Calvary) and was wounded at Murfreesboro, TN. He had his right hand amputated and died in his early 40's. If it doesn't offend you, I will honor his service and sacrifice.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. 235 posts in 10 years. Y'all come back now, ya heah?
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CleanGreenFuture Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
45. I know, right? Someone made it on his ignore list in 2011. Maybe it'll be one of us next year.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. My friend, your ancestors were traitors
They took up arms against the USA

And they did it to own, or at least have the right, to own other people

I feel no sympathy for them

You, however, I do have sympathy for

May you be enlightened someday
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
63. Says the guy who's totally over the civil war. Why can't non-southerners just get over it?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #63
70. I'm over it. I don't fly a 33 star flag in rememberance of the Union soldiers.
I just asked why SOME Southerners obsess about the war

And why they venerate a government that fought down to its old men and small boys to maintain other people as property
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
29. The South.
If backward people in the south want to hang on to being defeated, so be it. I admire the way General Sherman dealt with confederate armies and the cities that rebel troops vacated in a hurry.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #29
41. How about most people
in the south just don;t give a rats ass about it?

Ever thought of that scenario?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. Awesome
:thumbsup:
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #43
52. Yup, I can't stand how southerners can see Confederate soildiers as "war heros".
They. Were. Traitors. PERIOD.
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #52
66. To equate all people who fought in the civil war for the south is simplifying
to the point of absurdity. If you lived at the time and happened to be born in the south I doubt it would seem quite as black and white. People fought for lots of different reasons. Not all of them were evil like you seem to think. Just like not every northern soldier was a hero. If you legitimately believe that then you don't deserve to be in this conversation.

And calling people's relatives traitors is troll behavior.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #66
72. LOL - no, they *were* traitors
Sorry, spin it how you want

Call them honorable gentlemen or esteemed, virtuous Christians if you wish

But if they took up guns to kill American Soldiers, then they were...traitors

That is the very definition of treason

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #72
99. Yup.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #72
119. except that by that standard
George Washington, Alecander Hamilton, Anthony Wayne, Archibald Campbell, Joseph Gordon, and other Revolutionary War soldiers were traitors, and I guess Benedict Arnold was a hero.

And John Brown, another traitor, and hanged as such. Took up arms against American soldiers at Harper's Ferry, and yet some people count him as a hero.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #66
177. Really?
You're justifying the South's role in the Civil War?

I'll bet you're one of those revisionists who says "the Civil War wasn't about slavery -- it was about economics." Yeah, the economics of SLAVERY.

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #52
118. not really that simple
First, a young man often does not have much choice. If his community goes to war, or if even state leaders decide to go to war, then a young man is fighting whether he wants to or not. It is also easier to decide to fight when an invading army is entering your county, even an invading army made up of former countrymen.

second, a person can show characteristics of bravery, skills, fortitude, etc., even if they are fighting for an ignoble cause.

Third, traitor is a matter of perspective. Weren't the Revolutionary War soldiers traitors to Britain? Would we think of them
as such if Britain had won that war?

Also, it is not only southerners. Here's what the Hull history says about David Denton Hull born 26 Dec 1837 at Marion, Smyth, Va.
" ... he entered the Confederate Army, with rank of Lt., later being promoted to Captaincy in the 63rd Virginia volunteer infantry, Gen. Humphrey Marshall's Division, in West Virginia, Southwest Virginia and Tennessee. He then joined John Morgan's command and participated in the Kentucky raid, and remained with the daring and adventurous officer until near the close of the war."

I note that his 4th cousin once removed Egbert Benson Hull born 1 Oct. 1816 was in the GAR - "In action in front of Petersburg, 22 Jun 1864, while leading his company in a charge, he fell mortally wounded, and died in the hands of the enemy, at a hospital near Richmond, 12 Jul 1864."

and also that a 5th cousin Henry Lansing was "killed 10 Aug. 1861, in battle at Wilson's Creek."

Then in another branch of my family. George Shuey was born 10 Sep 1794 in Bethel, Lebanon, Pa and his father moved to Virginia when he was one year old. His son Benjamin Franklin Shuey was born 19 sep 1835 and died after the battle of Manassas on 22 jul 1861 just under 27 years old. His little brother John Jacob Shuey was born 10 Nov 1837 and also was wounded at the battle of Manassas when his own son Benjamin Franklin Shuey was just one month old, but he survived and lived to be over 80. On the other side his first cousin once removed James F. Shuey, born 2 Oct 1837 in Indiana was a member of Company E, 123 Regiment of Illinois volunteers for three years as was his little brother Ephraim Ezra Shuey born 27 July 1844.

The war was fought often with relatives on each side, not with subhuman traitors on one side and heroic warriors on the other.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #118
121. Reconstruction was an horrific debacle
For nearly 100 years the South did not recover from the effects of the War Between the States. There was cruel starvation, diseases, poverty, and joblessness in many of the formerly Confederate states.

There is a theory that President Lincoln was assassinated because he opposed post-war punitive measures against the whipped, bleeding South.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #118
145. A traitor is not 'subhuman' but simply treasonous.
That also does not mean the other side was 'heroic warriors'. All that poetry about that war, that is sort of the point here. Get over it means stop thinking in terms such as 'subhuman' and 'heroic warriors'. It means noting that the Confederacy literally saw some of us as subhuman.
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's their right to glorify who they wish... why are you being a nosey nanny? nt
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
35. Hey can I glorify Sherman for leveling Atlanta?
Seriously?
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #35
112. OF COURSE YOU CAN!!!!
Marry who you like, love who you like, worship who you like... and for gods sake, glorify who you like. I (and others) don't GIVE A SHIT.

You sound like a damn nosey Christian fundamentalist when you tell people who they can like/glorify/respect.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
146. Almost the whole Tea Party is from the South
There's that. Think about it.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. If you have spent much time in the deep South, you would know...
Edited on Sat Aug-06-11 11:35 PM by hlthe2b
they have convinced themselves that slavery was not the principle issue over which the war was fought. That said, people who face occupation after loss in war do not tend to forget it for generations...It is their heritage and they are bound to it. I fear we may be reminded of this in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

I spent a good part of my life in various areas of the deep South before returning back West. Honestly, I do love that most states west of Kansas and north of Texas really don't dwell on the civil war or discuss it at all. But, it is unlikely that some in the South will forget for many more generations to come. Those who live along Sherman's path of destruction surely do not, as the stories are passed down the generations. War and occupation is like that. It is the suffering that is remembered, no matter the circumstances. :shrug:

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
143. WAS slavery the principal issue?
Wasn't the principal issue one of economics, which includes slavery as a factor?
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #143
151. You will find historians arguing it both ways...
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 09:50 AM by hlthe2b
and certainly, the descendents of non-slave holders in the South have long pointed to their ancestors as evidence that they fought for something other than slavery. That's the thing about wars--all wars. The politicians have one set of issues and the people may have many more that they use to justify the fight. If you talk to those US soldiers and marines fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, they may have had many reasons for deciding to serve--some personal and some modeled after the official political "reasons" for going to war. In the end, though, their reasons for continuing to fight usually just boils down to their loyalty to those who fight with them. On the ground (and I am convinced this was true of many in the civil war), they believe they are fighting for their own survival and those of their neighbors. Which is why I find the urge of some to call out all who died on the side of the SOuth in the civil war as "traitors" to be extremely naive' (and expressly unwilling to try to understand history in its complexities).
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #151
159. I have followed historians arguing it both ways;
I have to teach that period of U.S. History, so I'm always trying to make sure that my students understand history in it's complexities.

Then or now, there's never just one cause of, or one pov about, any situation.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #159
161. I'm glad some get to have you as a teacher...
I hope there are many more like you... ;)
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #143
175. I think "slavery" and "economics" are one and the same issue.
From a more "big picture" perspective the Civil War was a struggle between the Southern Planter elite on one hand and a Northern Industrial Elite and Western Farmers who feared the spread of slavery on the other. The destruction of the old Planter elite removed the various institutional blocks to full and rapid industrialization (such as opposition to tariffs and a strong "Hamiltonian" federal government).
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #143
176. Read the various state "Articles of Secession" (called different things). Try Mississippi first,

First two paragraphs from Mississippi:

A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

"In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. . . . . . . ."

Other Southern States are just as bad
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #143
180. Yeah. Ya know, "free labor" is pretty much an economic issue.
God how I hate that red herring "it was about economics." That's just a whitewash. It was about the economics of slavery.
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justabob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
152. occupation after loss in war
You are right about this, I think. Reconstruction is at the heart of the hangups, not the war so much. I think it was a long and often painful process... it left a mark.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. When you win, you don't spend 150 years feeling sore.
When you lose, and your "second place" prize is ONLY being a full member state of the United States, well, I guess that's a real cause for bitterness.


You'd think the Jim Crow laws were about state of birth, not race. :eyes:
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. That's an interesting comment.
Funny thing, I am from the south born and raised. My ancestors were all southerners. I have family spread all over the south, not just Texas.

Never in my life, EVER was the civil war ever discussed. We never had flags, we never celebrated any confederate milestones, war reenactments or anything of the sort.

I find that more often than not, it's not the south so much that is constantly talking, bitching and reminding everyone ELSE about it. I know that there are statues, and reminders of the war. To call that not being "over it" is kind of a stretch. I have been to many southern states and cities as a visitor and never once thought of stoping by one of these monuments. Neither did my family, or my girl scout group...or my school...etc.

Hell, DU is where I have seen the most talk about the Civil War than any other place I have been on the nets or in person!!!

Just my opinion. I realize you said "some" so please don't whip me too bad. :)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. It is a small group, that is truly obsessed
I have known over the years a few of them. One that I know... LOOOOVEEEES to recreate the battles in miniature battles, after all he wants to portray his favorite general, Stonewall Jackson... and i mean all the way...

Alas he could not serve in the modern day military... and he is one of those that gives the rest of the south a bad name. Oh and for the record he could not do the actual 1:1 scale recreation either...

We mostly ignore him these days.

Alas he is one of those really loud mouths who are a real minority and who has gone to every field and celebrates his southern heritage. I think the only reason he has not joined our more extreme boys in the East County is the same reason he does not do the 1:1 scale recreation

When we used to still play ANOTHER sci fi game I loved to take really obscure battles for inspiration to design scenarios, but not just from the civil war, But things like Brandy Station, (or Churubusco) are fun in some interesting ways. These days we do WW II, so we at times do real order of battle and all that, interesting hobby that can be used for good or bad.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. I find it funny that
one small group of whack jobs spawns a belief that somehow the south can't "get over" it.

How stupid is that rational?

Sometimes, i think it's northerners that re-hash this event and try to paint all southerners as some inbreed ignorant hicks.

:shrug: That's just my opinion, may not mean much. :P
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Not "The South"
"The South" is as nuanced and differentiated as any other section of America

But some Southerners (you don't see a lot of Hoosiers obsessing about the Union Days) obsess about the Civil War, and the Confederacy.

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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Sorry, your OP clearly said
" The south".

And Tav, alot of Northerners obsess over it too, they obsess or over perceived obsession.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. True, but I make a point later down the thread...
Why do some (note I said some - and I like to think its an oral minority) Southerners still glorify the Confederacy?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #28
46. It is a small group
and actually it is a small group on both sides.

Alas the war of northern agression was on textbooks until relatively recently, which does not help... (As in a generation ago)
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. Try the other way around.....
...This subject will be silenced when non-southerners finally get over their superiority complex, and the need to flaunt it whenever the opportunities arise. Thanks.
quickesst
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pennylane100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
123. I married a sotherner and it think it will take a lot more than what you suggest to silence it.
I first came to this country in the sixties and spend some time with my in laws. They took no responsibility for what years of oppression and violence had done to the black community and blamed them for the poverty that so many of them lived in. I can only speak for the people I knew, but I really believe they thought the south was justified in fighting the civil war to maintain their way of life.

The irony is, according to what I have read, many white working class people in the south did not own slaves but were more than willing to fight and die to preserve the system and to preserve the way of life of the rich plantation owners. Sounds like today teabaggers.

If I were on the side of those who fought and died to free a whole race of enslaved people, I would definitely feel good about it. However having been born in a country that spent centuries trying to colonize and brutally repress half the world, I do not have that luxury.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
158. maybe non southerners will get over their "superiority complex"
when the South stops electing far rightwing assholes who do their damndest to ensure that America remains a sexist, racist, homophobic society.

The South, per se, isn't the problem. It's the rightwing religious stranglehold on the South that helps stop us from moving forward as a nation.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. Oh I could ask this about a few grudges that go
a LOT longer in Europe... why don't the serbs get over... you get it... the whole mess between the serbs and the bosnians have a long, and I mean this LOOOOONGGGG history going back over 500 years.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Thing is, Serbian, Bosnian and Kosovar killers still walk among them
In the South/North however, all of the people who did any killing on either side are long gone...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Yes but the curent events came from 1914, and those came from the 15 century
that is the nature of humans... sadly.

What they are doing is creating the other, pure and simple... and in this particular case the other is the federal government.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Not sure I understand
I mean - the Federal Government hasn't done anything to hurt the South in a while...

And even during Reconstruction, despite all the corruption, if the carpetbaggers hadn't come, the South's economy would have been devastated even further
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #27
44. It is the creation of a whole different view of the world
We know one of these characters in person, in the flesh. He is a "historian" of the civil war. His "facts" are not precisely the same as those I know myself, Things like the Grand Compromise don't exist. His world view of the war is limited to just the military history and the atrocities committed by the North. When you press, and this has been passed from father to son, mostly. his family lost their shirts during that march to the Sea, and two of relatives died in a northern POW camp near Chicago, (Yes andersonville was bad but the same went for a few of the camps up north). So his family is still carrying that chip.

My dad, before he passed, told me some of the things that went down in Poland due to the Holocaust... the same kind of things that he did not want to speak about for over fifty years about WW II... this is a first line transmission. Some of them are not fit for print... but they are like the horros I heard from 15 years old from El Salvador. They are probably just as bad as what this guy's family experienced. Actually let me correct this, not as bad. The kids in El Mozote and my dad lost family because of race. He did not. Alas in some ways war is war... but these days, unlike me... they still want revenge and to restore honor. It is a lot about that nebulous concept of honor.

Oh and I will correct you, it is not the south... it is a very small, but very loud, minority in the south. Some are descendants of officers who did own slaves, and were part of a landed aristocracy. Those I actually get it. My paradox comes from most who are descendants, like this guy... of the common soldier, who best case, his family did... had ONE slave.

Of course if you press these types on the concept of honor you will get more definitions than the dictionary ever had but that is another story.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
164. Heh, you beat me to it.... n/t
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Pigheaded Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. The War of Northern Aggression was not about slavery
Please do some research.

PH
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Great username for your post
Being wrong and all.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Duh
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Actually son, it was one of the major causes
but that is ok. We could not have a discusion on this since to you it is the war of northern agression. That tells us all that we need to know.

But if you have any doubts, the Great Compromise of 1850 WAS about slavery.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Dude, you rock!
:thumbsup:

:rofl:
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #18
60. "War of Northern Agression"
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 12:34 AM by ThoughtCriminal
That's another odd thing. I never once heard that term when I was growing up there in the 60's and 70's. I think the first time was when I was visiting my parents and saw a sign at a bookstore in the 1990's and thought it was tongue-in-cheek. Maybe it was used in other parts of the south, but it seems to me that it is a new thing with Neo-Confederate revisionism.

But, it was very rare to hear it referred to as the "Civil War". It was referred to as "The War Between the States" or just the "Wah". Using the term "Civil War" could get you at least a mild "Correction". In school, we were taught that "Slavery was just one of many causes" - which sounded pretty silly when you actually look at the event leading up to the war. It would be accurate to say that the United States did not fight the war to free the slaves - at least not initially. But it is a lie to say that the Confederacy did not fight to preserve it.


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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #60
68. One of my instructors was from Dixie
he grew up in the south and went to university there and all that. He cautioned us that the terms used were war of northern agression, rarely, and war between the states, more often... this was in the early 1980s. He also marched at Selma, one of the few whites that was there. He also helped the bus riders. Now you know why he ended up at a Western University though... as he quipped ONCE, his life was made.. ahem interesting.
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DiverDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #60
106. The first time I was in Charleston
we took a carriage ride, the driver called it "The war of northern aggression and southern independence"

This was 1988.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #106
115. I think we probably took that same carriage ride in Charleston in 2010
Driver still called it "the war of northern aggression."

Last year.

.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. No it was about "state's rights" - that is the state right to own other people
Sorry about that :eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #12
40. Who cares? You got your ass kicked. Hail to General Sherman. nt
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #40
48. +1,000,000
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #40
50. Lol. That's awesome.
:rofl:

My great-great grandfather fought at Vicksburg for the Union.
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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #40
105. Sherman was born about 30 miles from where I live
The town (Lancaster, OH) has always made sure you know it when you are there. I also live less than a mile from where a hockey team called the 'Blue Jackets' plays, so you can certainly be reminded of the Civil War here in the north as well.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
74. sure it was, as the articles of secession for many of the southern states make clear
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 12:34 AM by fishwax
"War of Northern Aggression" :eyes: :puke:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:41 AM
Original message
It's called The War of Southern Treason.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
101. WIN!!!
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DeltaLitProf Donating Member (459 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
114. A little research for you: CSA VP Stephens' "Cornerstone Speech"
Look it up. In it, the new Vice President of the Confederacy says the reason for the war is the alleged fact of the superiority of the white man over the black.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
141. It's called "THE CIVIL WAR." Sorry you didn't get to secede, though. I mean that.
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 07:37 AM by WinkyDink
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S_E_Fudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #12
160. The "slavers revolt" was absolutely about slavery...
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 10:34 AM by S_E_Fudd
Do some research...and don't confine yourself to the lost cause historians who succeeded at inserting the "states rights" narrative into the public conciousness following reconstruction.

The southern economy, an economy built on slave labor, was in jeapordy. Slave owners and southern politicians used the trope of a threat to states rights as a propaganda tool to get the non slave owning population to go along..and do the fighting and dying for them.

As John Mosby said in his memoirs:

"The South had always been solid for slavery and when the quarrel about it resulted in a conflict of arms, those who had approved the policy of disunion took the pro-slavery side. It was perfectly logical to fight for slavery, if it was right to own slaves. "

You will find this sentiment in most primary southern sources of the time. It was only later as southern historians tried to downplay the role of slavery in order glorify their involvment in the conflict do you find the rise of "states rights" as the preferred proximate cause.
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. I grew up in Alabama
Edited on Sat Aug-06-11 11:49 PM by ThoughtCriminal
I think it is still very hard to for many Southerners to come to grips with the fact that great-great grand-dad fought for a very awful cause. There is a huge amount of denial about the role slavery had in Succession (the revisionist crud about it being about tariffs and "States Rights" is complete nonsense).

I was always hearing "Oh, my ancestors were too poor to own slaves, but they fought, so it couldn't have been about slavery."

And I suppose the Iraq wars were not about oil since most soldiers do not own significant amounts of stock in Exxon.

I've heard many talk proudly about their ancestor fighting for the Confederacy, but not one seems to the descended from a slave owner. A remarkable statistical phenomena. About one out of three Southern families did own slaves at the time, yet it seems that none of those families had decedents. And among Confederate soldiers about half were from families that owned slaves. As for the rest, they were completely indoctrinated with the idea that if the slaves were set free, they would take their jobs, rob, murder and rape. Even long after the war, most southerners thought "Birth of a Nation" was an accurate documentary.

I know I have a few ancestors who fought on both sides. Did any of my Confederate ancestors own slaves? No idea. It doesn't seem to be something that was ever discussed in family history. I think that is the case for pretty much everyone who thinks that since it was never mentioned, they must not have.

Edit - spelling
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. That is because most of the rank and file
and some of the officers were not slave owners. That is why most didn't.

It is one of those paradoxes....

That said, the civil war is the first example of something that is remembered the same way a battle is remembered in Europe... a few of those grudges go back hundreds of years.

Humans are funny that way.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #16
89. Even Lee didn't own slaves.
Though from what admittedly little I've read of him he actually agreed with the North on the issues, but couldn't lead an army against his home. I still don't agree with him,though.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. I don't get it either. There are many people alive today who fought in WWII but...
Japan and Germany are now our BFFs and allies. My father and stepfather both fought in that war, and neither had a problem with Germans or Germany, just Nazis. Note that in both of those countries it's bad form to honor their war "heroes" from those days, even the ones who served honorably, and we don't shove ours in their faces. What's done is done-- let's get on with life.

Germany recently removed Rudolph Hess from his grave and cremated his bones because his was the only marked grave of any ranking Nazi and had become an embarrassing shrine and gathering place for neo-Nazis. Just try sticking a swastika on your truck over there and see what happens.








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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
26. Loaded question, indeed. I answered you seriously in earlier post...
but then I noted your comment about "marble statue after marble statue of Confederate killers

Perhaps you should be reminded that soldiers on BOTH sides killed and were killed. That gratuitous remark was most certainly "loaded," if not pure flamebait.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Oh I agree. Grant was a killer just as much as Lee or Jackson were
But they WERE killers

There are statues of Grant, Anderson and Welles, but NOTHING like that on Monument Blvd in Richmond

We're talking peanuts to pachyderms here...
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
149. So then, you would argue against all the war memorials... WWII
WWI, Korea, Vietnam Memorial, etc. ? After all they are all "killers."
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #26
47. I call those who fought for the Confederacy TRAITORS.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. So do I. nt
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #26
130. Most Civil War memorial statues were bronze
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 06:40 AM by Mimosa
Very few were marble. The largest memorial was a bas relief of 4 generals carved into GA's granite Stone Mountain by a German master sculptor.

My fave memorial was St. Gaudens' Shaw memorial. The producers of the great movie Glory used it as well as photos in casting the movie.

http://teachhistory.com/tag/augustus-saint-gaudens /

A video about the Shaw memorial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t8K7Aisx8U&feature=play...
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
32. Folks in the Balkans have held grudges for almost 700 years. 150 years in nothing.
Culturally-embedded resentment is very powerful.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #32
51. How about 1500?
But yep...
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #32
53. The Balkans seem to renew the wounds every seven decades.
So the wounds never heal. The exception was the reign of Tito. Some southerners are just insane, they have no reason to worship a failed cause, but still do.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #32
142. The Balkans have different ethnic groups as enemies. The American N&S did not.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #142
172. Southerners seem like a distinct ethnic group to me.
I certainly do NOT relate to Southern culture at all. it has a authoritarian and deferential streak that is utterly alien to the egalitarian culture of the Upper Midwest that I grew up in.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
36. The answer is quite simple.
The South was invaded, conquered, and occupied. Something like that leaves a resentment that lingers for generations. And the South experienced very little immigration in the years after the Civil War. Demographically the South of 1980 wasn't very different to the South of 1880 (that's changed in recent decades, in places like the NC Research Triangle and Atlanta especially, with an influx of transplants from elsewhere in the country and immigrants, but in much of the South...Alabama, Mississippi, and so on...it really hasn't).

You might as well try telling an Ulster Catholic he needs to get over it, the Battle of the Boyne was a long time ago. Or try telling a Welsh nationalist to get over it because the English conquered Wales 800 years ago, for that matter.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. Thing is, it is unhealthy to dwell on the Confederacy today
It is beyond "lost cause"

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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #42
55. Good luck with that viewpoint
you don't seem to actually want to understand why some Southerners aren't "over" the Civil War; it's really the same reason some Quebecois aren't over Montcalm's defeat on the Plains of Abraham, the reason some Northern Irish Catholics aren't over James II's defeat at the Battle of the Boyne, the same reason some Welsh aren't over Llewellyn the Last's defeat by Edward I. You're talking about a geographically and culturally distinct population that fought a war and lost and are told by the victors they need to get over it and forget it ever happened and stop living in the past; that's just not going to work. (Doesn't really matter whether they were right or wrong or deserved to lose either, because that doesn't change the basic reasons.)
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #55
62. No no no - THEY didn't fight a war. Their ancestors did.
They just happened to be the great great grandchildren of those folks

My family has a lot of historically oppressed and a lot of the historic oppressors

But I don't look back to what some person's great great grandfather did to my great great grandfather...
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. Generational memory is very long
you seem to be forgetting this fact. The Civil War? Not REALLY all that long ago if you think about it. My grandfather was born in 1923. His grandfather was born in 1855 and was 10 years old when the war ended. My grandmother, who was born in 1927, told me about HER grandfather, when I was a child (and HIS father was a Union cavalryman in a Kentucky regiment). It's not within living memory but it's not so far away that there aren't a lot of people alive who've heard about it at, at most, second or third hand. As another post notes below, memory tends to be much longer in places where people have been settled for generations in more relatively insular communities.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #62
77. You want to understand this, in some way?
Take a look at Holocaust day...yes it is closer, but... the process is happening in front of you.

This includes things like the March of Life.

You say your family has Jewish blood... keep an eye for the rise of antisemitism... and there are valid reasons for that.

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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #36
56. The South brought the fight onto themselves. The Union did not bombard
itself at Fort Sumter. The Union did not attempt to assault Washington DC. The Union did not try to carry out raids in Ohio, only to get stopped at Gettysburg.
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steve2470 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
39. fwiw, my family never spoke of the Civil War, despite being in the South since 1850
Why ? My only guess is that everyone in my immediate family had a college degree and KNEW the truth.

I think it's a vocal minority that gives the rest of the South a bad name.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #39
61. I hope so. Because if the South is responsible for another Civil War,
losing a second time will not remotely end well for the region, or it's people.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #61
76. If we have another civil war, I doubt it will be the South
It will be more of a rural v metro war...if even that...

I worry though, because if the divisions in this country continue, NONE of us are going to be safe

take care of your loved ones and family and anyone else...
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
54. It's funny
One of the first times I went down south I was amazed to see a plate for sale in one of the shops with all the state flags of the confederacy.

I was in Memphis one year and the bus driver for the hotel I was staying at told me he was raised to hate the Yanks and then after 9/11 and watching Ken Burns' PBS show on the civil war decided that we are all really Americans and what he was taught was wrong.

I have a friend from Texas and she told me that she was raised to think that Yanks suck.

I have a few other stories about all of this, but I don't feel like typing. Anyone from the south who says this is bullshit is full of shit. They are either dense or are trying to pretend it doesn't exist. I never thought about this south versus north crap until I went down there.

Don't get me wrong, I love the southern U.S. They have great food and a lot of beautiful land. But they don't have that "Southern hospitality" and crap they think they have over anything you would get up north.

I've met a lot of southerners and most of them (although quite cool) think there is some sort of war still going on.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #54
75. Oh BS.
I am a southerner and I have no issues with anyone from any other state including northerners. Neither my friends, my family or just about anyone I know. Hell, upstate NY and Boston are one of my favorite places mainly because of the people!

What a pantload.

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. YOU don't but YOU are not all Southerners
Like I mentioned earlier, "The South" is just as nuanced as Oakland, CA or Boston, MA
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #78
83. I HEARD you.
I realize you said not all " the south ".

Have we confirmed there is a small group of nut jobs that happen to live in the south that are obsessed?

Or not?

I only ask becuase it does not appear that way in this thread.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. Anytime I see the CSA Naval Jack on a car, I see obsessed people
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. One obsessed person?
Or millions that live here?
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #75
86. Oh BS.
I've experienced it first hand. Why would I lie?
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. Why would I ?
You basically said that anyone from the south that cannot see that there is an obsession is full of shit. I call BS.

Are there a few nut jobs? Yeah. Never said there wasn't.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #87
98. "I've met a lot of southerners and most of them"
I said "most of" not all. Can you seriously say this topic has never come up in your life?
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #98
103. Yes. I can honestly say that.
It was never something we discussed. Ever. Even with my great GP's and great uncles and aunts. Never mentioned.

My civil war topics are usually discussed with people here on DU that have some sort of notion that the rest of us inbred southern hicks have no clue obout it.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #103
108. Then your southern roots have been held back from you
Trust me it isn't my paranoia. Why do you think this topic is brought up every now and then on DU? Do you seriously think that this topic is a figment of a collective imagination? Just because you have been sheltered from it all, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I was flabbergasted when I encountered it, I had no idea. I love the south, I just didn't know that what the OP discussed is real until about 28 years ago and if you don't see it, then you are blind.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #103
124. Same here.
Texasgal, I grew up in and was raised in the deep South: GA and Louisiana, mainly. My grandparents lived their last years in SC, mom lived her last years in NC. I've met almost nobody 'obsessed' with the Civil War in the way Taverner seems to think.

I'm often struck how many grounds I've walked were once soaked in blood, how many nearby streams (like Peachtree Creek)ran red with blood from the civil war battles. Most people aren't obsessed any more than Ken Burns, the great Civil War documentary director. Most of us are fascinated by the tragic history only when we're in a place or watching a film which inspires our imaginations.
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idiotgardener Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #75
169. But he saw a PLATE!
And met like 4 people! How are you gonna explain that??

I lived in Texas for a while. Never discussed the civil war with anyone. Every now and then I'd see a Confederate flag on a truck or something, and I (and as far as I know, everyone I associated with) thought, "There goes a jerk." Clearly there are some people who still think about it, though I don't think it's on the terms implied in this thread. The vast majority have been "over it" since they were born and would be surprised to see all this hate coming from people who clearly don't know any better.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
57. !
:popcorn:
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
58. It's not like that here. Richmond was the capital. It's like asking why
Williamsburg can't get over the 1700's or the Alamo can't get over the Alamo.
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
59. Where are you from, Taverner?
The reason I ask is...well, because it matters.


I am from Southwestern Virginia--just about a half-hour drive from the West Virginia line, due north. West Virginia split off from Virginia during the Civil War, because WV wanted to go Union (think of that when you diss WV using a typical southern-hick stereotype. WV had more Union people than Maryland at the time).

Realize that I come from a region where memory is very long--which is one of the things I respect about it. I was born in 1969; when I was a child I listened to stories from my great-grandparents, who were in their 80s at the time; born in the 1890s, whose own parents and grand parents fought the Civil War and they got the stories in the same way I did, as children from old people. It wasn't within living memory, but it was within living memory of the immediate family of people I was close to as a child, so I got the stories orally, not out of a book. As far as I can tell, if your forbears to the mid 1800s lived anywhere from Baltimore to Charleston (N-S axis only; west of the Piedmont, all bets were off!), odds are, you had ancestors on both sides. I know I did. And I think history is interesting and important. Not just the "tides of movements" thing, but, if all possible, knowing the history of the immediate place where you are, locally.

I grew up in the Appalachians--very highly contested territory in the Civil War; virtually every family here had people on both sides. It is GOOD to know your history. Whatever side your people were on--learn and remember. And of course there are memorials to the Confederate dead all over the south; they were all sons and fathers and brothers --and the grandsires and granduncles of people living now. Just because they were on the wrong side doesn't mean their families are going to stop caring about them.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. There is a difference between knowing your history, and obsessing over it
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 12:29 AM by Taverner
And pining for a government that lost...a government that fought hard to maintain slavery

I am from California. My ancestors probably had some Union soldiers in there. Horace Greeley is one of them. Also among my ancestors were lots of Jews who had to deal with the occasional pogrom and/or witch hunt. So were lots of Irish, Scotsmen and Welshmen.

But I don't fight their fights.

And I understand the whole re-enactment thing. Trying to see what someone experienced is part of learning history.

However, pining for a lost cause (The Confederacy) is flat out harmful.

Especially when The Confederacy fought like hell to own other people, and pretty much get rid of the Bill of Rights.
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #64
88. I don't know anyone who obsesses over it, honestly.
I just know people who carefully maintain their ancestors' graves and pass on their stories. I have to admit, I know a lot of bigots and 'wingers back home, but I don't know anyone who really wants to go back to those days. (Wasn't anything like 'Gone With the Wind' in Appalachia, that's for sure)

The Confederate flag that's played out now isn't even the real CSA flag; it's the battle flag of Lee's Northern VA regiment. Which some people in my home region fly--and others will spit on, because Lee's soldiers killed their people.


Are you really "from" California? When did your ancestors get there?


One of the things I really admire about Appalachia is that the short generational memory that is one of the US's worst qualities does not apply there. People listen and remember. I bet I knew about the Battle of Blair Mountain, and Sid Hatfield, and "Which Side Are You On" long before you did. Oral tradition. People there don't forget much of anything. It's a two-sided sword for sure, but I'll take that kind of culture over the CA "If it didn't happen last week, it wasn't real" mentality any century!
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #88
96. Born and raised in California. Parents from the Midwest: MI and IA
I don't see why it matters

:shrug:

Where I live and where I am from are one and the same - but that's because I realized later in life that I live in the greatest place in the world (for me)

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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #96
104. Do you know the oral history of your parents' respective ancestors?
Obviously your parents' ancestors weren't original from MI or IA either, unless they were pure Native American (unlikely). They too must have come from somewhere and it probably took their forbears hundreds of years to get that far. Do you value it or think it's important?




I can't speak for the rest of the South, but my Mason-Dixon-straddling mountainous border region is one where everyone agrees on one thing: history MATTERS.


So even as a progressive, I still feel that local oral history matters, and the further you can go back, the better. No one sprang full-formed out of the suburban turf, FFS. That's why I asked where you were from. My next question would be, how long do your family stories reach back?


Q: What's the difference between a European and an American?

A: A European thinks 100 miles is a long way, and an American thinks 100 years is a long time!

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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #104
109. An Addendum - gathering stories from elders was something I was taught to do from elementary school
Girl Scouts, 4-H....one of the common projects we all undertook as children to earn our points involved interviewing old people in the community about old times, and listening carefully and writing down what they said.

I guess I'm kind of naive in that I thought this was something that all elementary/intermediate school children everywhere did as part of their schoolwork and extracurriculars....No?
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pintobean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #104
122. Thank you for posting.
I read through this thread looking for different perspectives. Seeing things through as many eyes as possible is the only way we can actually come close to understanding. Some questions are asked for enlightenment, others are asked to make a statement. I'm glad that you answered this as the former. You taught me something.

Love the Q&A. :thumbsup:
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #59
71. I don't mind the caring. I do mind the aggressive imagery, like confederate battle flags.
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 12:33 AM by bluestate10
Some of the flags flown by Union armies are some of the most beautiful flags that I have seen. But one does not see people in the North flying them over government buildings, parading them around and having them affixed to vehicles.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. Exactly. No one here flies the 33 star American Flag
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #71
92. No one actually flies the CSA national flag,
I'm guessing Lee's Northern VA Regiment battle flag was the more striking design??


I'm from VA; I've lived in Chicago for 20 years--and I see more Stars 'N Bars stickers in rural IL and WI as I ever did in SW VA---and in Indiana, it's off the frickin' scale.


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lynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
65. What's stuck in your craw? What made you so upset?
Is it the statues in Richmond that you don't like? I don't think its a matter of getting over the CW, I think its more of a cultural thing. Southerners have always been big on honoring family, heritage, history, etc. and it just so happens that what went on in the confederacy is part of their heritage and their history.

Losing isn't going to make them not remember those that fought and died. And honoring your great-great grandpa isn't glorifying a cause or re-fighting a war, either.

I think that you're going to have to get over how the south deals with their ancestors. Win or lose - its family to them.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #65
79. I live in a part of the country where Irish, Italian and Greek family roots
are deep and enduring. But I don't see people from those groups honoring black sheep relatives that are long dead, they forget them and move on all the while keeping their deep family connections.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. Yep. Speaking of a good friend of the family (Greek) son just married a Turkish Woman
He was overjoyed that she was a fellow Mediterranean, and could make Baklava

Cyprus never came into the discussion
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #79
91. Alas that is the nature of immigrants
they just become american muts, mostly.

Funny story from the local farmers market One stand sells turkish coffee, which is alos greek coffee. Well, to avoid the obvious problems between the turks and greeks they named it something else. We all know what it is mind you.
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lynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #79
97. The difference is that they don't see them as black sheep -
- its difficult to blanket an entire generation or two of men as "black sheep". The reasons for the war weren't neatly pigeon-holed then, especially to those living in the area where the fighting was going on. Considering that the most of confederate soldiers didn't own slaves, its not easy to say they were willing to give their life for something that didn't directly impact them. Many returned from the war to make lasting contributions to their communities and raise large families - not what you'd normally call a black-sheep.

You obviously consider all confederates as black sheep. Their families - including the huge amount of Scot-Irish in Virginia - simply do not see it that way.



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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #65
148. I just saw the moive 'The Freshman' Brando has a picture of
Mussolini on the wall. Says 'it's not political, it is remembering, family, not political'. Would you agree that a pic of Bentio on the wall could just be 'heritage'?
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
69. Because they are taught to not "get over" it.
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 12:32 AM by begin_within
When you reach the point when everyone who actually participated in the war has passed away, which we have reached, then everything anyone thinks or believes about the war is based on what they learned about it. I don't mean what they learned through their formal schooling, from museums and historic sites or from published or produced works about it, but from what their local culture has informally taught them about it. Their local culture being their own families or circles of friends, their churches or other local organizations, the local or regional culture in general. That culture may perpetuate views about it that are passed on informally by the culture, like many views are. How else to explain how things like racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, and on and on, are perpetuated? That's how we learn most of our beliefs, and we start learning them in childhood. It's a cultural thing.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #69
137. It's an identity thing as much as a culture thing.
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 07:23 AM by no_hypocrisy
People "down South" are proud of their origins. It's more than telling folks you're from Virginia. You tell them what particular part of Virginia you're from. And you also are proud of your heritage which means history without restrictions. No apologies for anything. When I attended college in Virginia, the county seat until the Nineties still had two sets of of restrooms in the County Administration building, with "colored" and "white" painted over. And the county still maintained segregated cemeteries. (So much for death being the great equalizer.) Locals were obviously comfortable with this arrangement.

Yeah, progress has been slow and reluctant. The reluctance in moving ahead is fear of losing the connection with the past. Everyone knows everyone and what their place is, no matter how limiting it is for both sides.

On edit: My observations extend to a limited segment of the population and it varies in degrees among individuals. I wouldn't say it's widespread and/or ubiquitous. But you also can't ignore it when you're down there.
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
80. Why doesn't the Middle East get over their 2000-year old squabbles. They all act like children
arguing in the playground.

Planet Earth needs adult supervision.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. Agreed. NT
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #80
94. Ironcally enough they are usually fighting over God. Who should be that supervisor.
Clearly he's fallen asleep on the job either that or our universe just got stuck with the really bad supervisor who only got the job because his brother is the CEO of several successful universes.
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Union Scribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #94
107. Actually they usually fight over land and resources
just like every other country.
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Bryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
90. Unrec'd for on and on with attack on the South
I am Southerner and I really don't care. None of my family ever brought it up. It seems to me that it's Nawtherners here at DU who keep on bringing it up.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #90
102. "Nawtherners"
Heh. That says a lot.
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pintobean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #102
125. What does it say?
Is it that she used the term 'northerners' in response to 'southerners' in the OP, or that she spelled it the way it is pronounced in her part of the country? I lack the ability to read anything into that. Can you enlighten me?
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TeamsterDem Donating Member (819 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
93. Why don't we get over Vietnam? Or WWII? Because the lessons are important to remember
I think it's silly when they fly the confederate flag but I'm not sure what you mean by "get over" considering it was a massive war with many implications, and in that vein I'm not sure anyone is "over it." If you don't like statues of fallen war dead then please avoid Washington, DC, while you're at it.

If you mean that they should accept defeat and accept that, more importantly, their ideas were defeated, then we'd be in agreement.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
95. They just haven't gotten around to rising again yet.
South Postpones Rising Again For Yet Another Year

April 12, 2000 | ISSUE 3613
HUNTSVILLE, ALFor the 135th straight year since Gen. Robert E. Lee's surrender at Appomattox, representatives for the South announced Monday that the region has postponed plans to rise again.

"Make no mistake, the South shall rise again," said Knox Pritchard, president of the Huntsville-based Alliance Of Confederate States. "But we're just not quite ready to do it now. Hopefully, we'll be able to rise again real soon, maybe even in 2001."

Pritchard's fellow Southerners shared his confidence.

"Yes, sir. The South will rise again, and when it does, I'll be right up front waving the Stars and Bars," said Dock Mullins of Decatur, GA. "But first, I gotta get my truck fixed and get that rusty old stove out of my yard."...




http://www.theonion.com/articles/south-postpones-rising...
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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
100. I think because the Civil War is such an important part of the South's distict identity
War is often a critical component of the the processes that birth and shape national (in this case regional) identities. Wars increase ties between those on the same side with things like shared sacrifice and greater purposes, etc. We've seen this a million times before in history. Way before most people had anything resembling that kind of identity, the Vietnamese were forging one in conjunction with their long struggle against the Chinese.

Just in modern Western history alone there are a myriad of examples: For France, the revolution and the foreign wars that grew out of it. For Italy and the Germany the wars of unification. The latter is especially interesting because the Prussians deliberately chose foreign wars as a means strengthening bonds with other German states to set the stage for unification. WWI is often mentioned in the context of distinct identities in Australia and New Zealand. And so and so forth.

The point is that when it comes to identity, war matters. There are other factors at play here, but my guess is that one of the most important is the fact that the Civil War is so integral to the very idea of the South as the South. I don't think it's that they aren't getting over it, it's that 'it' is so tightly woven into the fabric of southern culture that 'getting over' isn't the right way to conceive of the framework that some southerners are using when interpreting that piece of their history.
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kctim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
110. Because it is not about the war, it is about home.
Do you have the same attitude towards native Americans? Should they just "get over" it all? It's done. They lost. It's over. Right?
Hardly.

You're politics are clouding you're common sense.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
111. Just think where we would all be economically if we had split.
Look at the tax revenues from the deep south vs federal aid to the deep south.

Not saying I wish it had happened, but it is interesting to note how it all worked out.

That said, all of our industry would have moved more cheaply - from PA/OH/IL to GA/TN/AL as opposed to Mexico, so there is that.

:D
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
113. Fuck if I know.
Not a topic I hear much about in south Texas.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
116. Because the myth of "The Lost Cause" was a staple of southern culture
long after the war ended.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
117. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
6000eliot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 05:30 AM
Response to Original message
120. Because they can't get over the fact that they LOST.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
126. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #126
127. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #126
128. Not really. The South, as a whole, takes more money from the Federal Govt than they give
See states like Alabama. For every dollar they give to the Federal Government, they get over 2 dollars in return.

Other states are subsidizing them.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #128
131. They're poor.
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 06:43 AM by Mimosa
Once they had textile factories and other manufacturing, much like South Carolina. Offshoring of manufacturing decimated the small semi rural areas which used to MAKE things like refrigerators, sheets, towels, clothing, ceramics and more.

I was disappointed to find out most refrigerators we buy are now being made in South Korea.
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OBlueDog Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #131
133. I would Buy a Refridigator
made in South Korea long before I purchased one made in South Alabama.

I vote every day, with my wallet and I only want my vote supporting policies I support and Red States do not support nor hold the same values as I do.

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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #133
134. People in the South aren't 'Rebs'. LOL
More African Americans live here in the South than in Northern states.

So you would boycott the South and it's diversity? You'd hurt black businesses too?

I live in ATL, a huge conglomoration of counties. Asians, Hispanics and blacks are pretty much the majority over whites.

Your posts sound like you've a stereotype of the South during the 1920s!! :rofl:
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #133
144. Do they make 'refridigators' in Alabama?
"I would Buy a Refridigator..."
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madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #144
163. Actually those are made in Florida!!
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #163
165. Florida sells water in St Augustine to the tourists who believe it will
make them young.

Tourists are so cute.
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idiotgardener Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #133
170. Is that some kind of northern-climate crocodile? (nt)
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OBlueDog Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #128
132. Reds Stares = the REAL welfare Queens
They either have to learn to start to support themselves or learn to live within their means. Many of the red states do not have a state income tax and it takes the blue states to keep em going.

One thing that needs to come out of the new cat food commission is ending debtor and creditor states.

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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #132
135. That's not true.
GA, LA, AL, MS, SC, NC, TN all have state income taxes.

FLORIDA does NOT. Florida wasn't part of the conderacy afaik.

You are either triolling or you don't know much. *rolling eyes*
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #135
162. Florida was one of the 11, and was among the first to secede. nt
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #132
166. "Reds Stares" = Harsh glares from Communists
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OBlueDog Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
129. Robert E Lee Killed more Americans than OBL
yet OBL is a terrorist and Robert E Lee is a hero to most in the South.

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divvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
136. Because the Federal Government pays them to languish
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 07:02 AM by divvy
Oh, they are still recovering and still wounded because they cannot buy or sell humans any more. Check out this chart that compares Federal Tax dollars paid to Federal spending in those states.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html

Defund the GOP one church and one bible belt state at a time.
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
138. The VAST VAST majority of people ARE over it...
people like you just prefer to focus on the few loudmouths that still celebrate it so you can comfortably justify your prejudice...

sP
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
139. When you say "...the South...", could you be more specific? Is it everyone in "the South",
or some few in "the South"?
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
140. I think a better question is why can't DU get over the Civil War?
You hardly hear it mentioned down here...every discussion I have heard, or read online, is on DU.

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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #140
150. A story from very recent DU.
In a very pessimistic thread, a poster posted very sad and defeated sentiments, so I posted one of my favorite quotations, from Gandhi, in which he says that history shows us that all tyrants fall.
What I got in response was 'Your screenname says it all about you'. I was then told that Gandhi and I were naive, and if we lived in the South for a while, we'd understand how the world is.
I was told my own region is not 'the world' and that simply living here 'says it all'. I was told that the Plantation owners still rule, and if I lived in the South, I'd understand that.
I pointed out that the West is just not the South, but the reality of life here is every bit as valid as in the South. I also ventured that criticizing Gandhi for having a shred of hope sort of makes an interesting corner of the sky to defend. I was told that it was easy for Gandhi as he faced a single terrible leader and once that leader was defeated, it was all done. The South's battle, it can never end because, the poster said 'the Plantation Owners won and still rule'.
"Your screen name says it all about you" the poster spit at me.

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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #140
179. +10000000
Jeezus! Agreed.

There is some sort of notion that the south cannot get over it, when in reality... DU is obsessed!
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
147. I won't presume to speak for everyone, but I will state this:
All of the people that I have known from southern states still argue about the civil war. They REALLY CAN'T let it go. And I wonder why that is? Really, I find it not only a little disturbing, but somewhat disgusting, as well.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #147
167. Hi. I'm from the South. Never been in, or even seen, an argument about the Civil War. So now
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 12:22 PM by DirkGently
you know one.

I find it disturbing and insulting and laughably ignorant that this type of South bashing comes up with some frequency here. It reeks of smug and it's frankly bigoted.

The stories told are the same kind of bullshit anecdotes people use to justify any other kind of mindless group hatred.

"Well, I got nothing against Hispanics, but every single one I've ever met refuses to speak English."

Really? Then you don't get out much. Or you're lying to support a ridiculous prejudice.


I join the rest of anti-slavery America in the general condemnation of the Confederacy, and the small proportion of Southerners or Southern states who wave the "Stars 'n Bars" in particular. That flag reads as an endorsement of slavery, whatever other sentiments people attach to it. But the only reaction I've ever seen from the Southerners I'VE MET, and I presume I've met a few more than most of the people talking -- is to ROLL THEIR EYES IN DISGUST.

But let's also not be ridiculous and pretend that no one on "the other side" of the bloodiest war in American history is permitted to speak of it, except to condemn the losers. The ideological rigidity of that is stunningly stupid. It's possible for those (and I'm not among them) whose ancestors were involved to have some other thought than, "I'm so ashamed of Great Grandfather for supporting the Confederacy." People fight in wars more based on where they live and their general circumstances than on any thoughts of the argument that started it.

I happen think every war America has fought since WWII has been a bad idea, fought with bad motivations on our side. And mostly, we've lost. Should we insist that future generations deride the veterans of Iraq, or simply ignore them, because they happened to fight for a supposed cause no one can intelligently agree with? Should we speak of our dead veterans only with shame, because they failed to avoid serving, when asked to do so?

As far as poor, sure. The South has plenty. And takes plenty of federal dollars. Then there's Detroit. And Alaska. How far south is Wasilla, again?

And I don't know where the Tea Party People come from, besides the depths of Hell, but I know their demographic is slightly above average middle class, and we also all know their corporate backers come from Wall Street and other points North. One of their shining stars hails from the aforementioned Wasilla. Another is the presidential hopeful from Minnesota. Another is now the esteemed Senator from Massachusetts.

I've also never run into an anti-government militiaman down here. I'm sure there's one somewhere. But mostly, you'll have to go to Michigan these days, to find angry, bad-history-obsessed loonies with guns, dreaming of taking down The Gubment. I don't suggest Michigan, in general, is a backward place, however.

So that will be about enough of implying today's radical rightwing politics are somehow an invention of Southerners with too many rebel flags on their pickup trucks, for Christ's sake.

Find something to feel superior about other than the latitude you happen to find yourself in, please.


*Editted fer Sothern spelings.
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Paladin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
153. Why The Hell Did You Bring It Up?

You're a long-time DU member, you know that ANY Civil War thread is going to spawn hundreds of vitriolic posts. Just like threads about Texas.

How about channeling your energies into re-establishing the Democratic Party as a viable, effective political force in this country? At least that would be constructive, however hopeless the cause seems at the moment....
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #153
155. Agreed...
At a time when we desperately need to unite progressives throughout the regions of this country to some commonality of cause (and to use DU and other political forums to assist in those efforts), divisive posts that show biogotry towards a region for whatever reason-- whether it be based on civil war history, religion or classical rural versus urban issues-- is really detrimental. We have enough "visitors" inciting disruption. Why do some of our own members do so as well?
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #153
157. second agreed; there are some posters here that just can't
let this shit go.
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pintobean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #153
171. The nature of the beast.
Stirring the pot is a game.
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frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
154. I think many
Confederate soldiers believed they were fighting to defend their homeland, which is exactly what the big, slave-owning planation owners wanted them to think. In their civilian lives, many of these soldiers were no better off than slaves themselves. I cant help but equate these Confederate soldiers naive allegiance with the naive allegiance Republican voters now have for big corporations.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
156. I have lived in the South. I won't live there again.
It's a different nation altogether from the Midwestern values I cherish. Of course that's not true of all residents of the South, but there is a strain of hatred there that I don't care to share.

I look to retire North, not South. I will put up with the snow, but not the hate.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #156
173. How would you characterize the "strain of hate" in the Michigan militia movement?

Sorry, but the Midwest has nothing over anyone, anywhere, in terms of values or lack of hatred. Kansas school board anyone? Indiana? Minnesota? You couldn't cut the stupid coming out of those places with a chainsaw.

Which is not to say the South, or the Northwest, or anywhere is better. Stupid knows no boundaries.

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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #173
178. Michigan militia? Like the 'Tea Party,' overblown.
Don't care. Like you said, stupid knows no boundaries.

But my experiences with the South tell me there is more stupidity there than in the Midwest. At least many in Wisconsin are fighting back. Texas has the religious demagogue, Gov. Perry, and seems to like him.

No thanks.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
168. It's not just regional now. The Tea Party are "virtual secessionists"
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 11:58 AM by gulliver
They want to live separately from the rest of the country. They don't want slavery, they just want to live in their little bomb shelters.
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cordelia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
174. It IS a loaded question,
Edited on Sun Aug-07-11 12:28 PM by cordelia
you KNEW it was loaded when you posted it, you knew it would result in South bashing, and you posted it as flame bait.

edit - typo
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #174
181. +100%
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #174
182. spot on...
and typical...

sP
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-11 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
183. Locking
The "loaded question" blew up (ewwww bad pun) into some questionable discussion. Other than that it looks like the main points have been covered
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