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It's all BULLSHIT. Retirement should be 55, Min Wage should be $20, Workweek 4 days

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:16 PM
Original message
It's all BULLSHIT. Retirement should be 55, Min Wage should be $20, Workweek 4 days
(if that)

Healthcare should be free

Education, housing, food, communications should all be subsidized and easily accessible to the working classes

The US shouldn't have 700+ military ba$e$ around the world and billions of $$ in contracts to protect the profit seeking interests of the wealthy global capitalists. Wealthy pricks who do nothing but extract and extort profit from labor around the globe.

It's all bullshit.

But hey at least the Era of Compromise is over. We've got nothing left to give up! :toast:
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. That is what life is like in those socialist democracies the media wants us to be so afraid of.
k&r
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. For now
they're going bankrupt too.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
29. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
roxiejules Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
55. Norway has the largest capital reserve per capita of any nation
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. Ssh! Ya don't want people to think you are some kind of
Socialist pinko commie nut case!

I mean, just because the Norwegian system works, doesn't mean we should emulate it.

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lib_wit_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #63
97. Exactly! The USA is the BEST country and we don't need to learn from anyone just because they do
things better than we do! That would be unpatriotic! Anyway, it's just a librul-media lie that any other country can do anything better than we can.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #55
68. Luck of the geologic draw
They're sitting on top of massive petroleum reserves, and they have the will to exploit them.

With that all a country has to do is not seriously mismanage the resources with a corrupt bureaucracy as is common in South America, and they have loads of money to pay for various programs.
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roxiejules Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. We have more oil reserves than Norway
http://exploredia.com/oil-reserves-by-country-20

They limit how much of the oil fund can be spent and save the rest.





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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #74
119. We have a bit over three times the oil
But over 60 times the population.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #74
120. We have a bit over three times the oil
But over 60 times the population.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #68
91. Yeah, because the USA is so devoid of natural resources and has such awful geographical location
Those Norwegians sure do have it easy with the mild climate of the Arctic circle and the calm North and Norwegian seas.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #68
125. Much like the US getting one of the best geological hands ever dealt...
Much like the US getting one of the best geological hands ever dealt-- vast resources and vast lands.


I imagine that, as you said, "with that all a country has to do is not seriously mismanage the resources with a corrupt bureaucracy..." Seems some of the Scandinavian countries are doing much less mismanagement than the 'corrupt bureaucracy' of the US... :shrug:
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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #55
98. Norway also has an obscene amount of oil per capita which helps.
...plus I will assume they work 5 days per week.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #55
142. +1 -- thank you!
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Skratchez Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
235. And they'll be the first to admit that it's because of a small
population and oil. They're very fortunate in that. These things would work however if not for greedy speculators and investment bankers breaking the whole damn economy.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
141. Only because of our financial impact on so many other nations --
Obviously, US -- CIA/MIC -- have been working around the world for more than 50 years

to destroy democracy -- people's governments.

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SugarShack Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
198. It's true. We DO have the money. They lie about it. All a ponzi scheme with the fed reserve
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liberalmike27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
248. That sounds too much like right
Seriously, I'm right at 55,and used to work several hard labor jobs. I have to choose my days to even go outside and mow the yard, feeling like it may kill me. The idea of raising the retirement age is insane, and I've always had a strong sense of injustice as to how much we get paid. One car problem, or sickness could throw you off the track, and out of the race, with no money to cover it.

You can't get insane people who think they'll someday be millionaires to realize, that rags to riches thing, rarely happens. Not only that, but republicans have passed and repealed laws, and regulation,that makes it ever more rare.

So yea, sign me up for a bit more Marxism, some real health care that you don't have to sell your house to buy, and take the money from the rich, without any guilt or compunction, and create the number of jobs we need. Ask someone who has a government job if they think it's a "job." I'd be willing to bet they do.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
260. Is this a drive by fruiting? Are you trying to hijack this thread? nm
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
261. Alert. nm
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Yo_Mama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
38. Who are all going bankrupt?
Have you read the news lately?
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FarLeftFist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #38
77. They're going bankrupt because of our policies and culture
Wall street didn't only fuck over America.
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stklurker Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. which ones?
Just curious... really.
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KelleyKramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
53. Yep, first thing I thought of was Sweden and Finland

I'd say they have it pretty close to that

We should all be so lucky
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Riftaxe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
54. Which ones?
Certainly not the Western European countries I have been to, so that leaves the Eastern Bloc...I amazed those countries have come so far, considering how little they started with, if your telling the truth that is.
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TrollBuster9090 Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
70. Pretty much. A four day work week would guarantee full employment.
Rather than a permanent unemployment rate between 5 and 10%, a permanent class of underemployed comprising about 30% of the population, and an economic PATRICIAN class comprising 10% of the population while bringing in 50% of the income and controlling most of the wealth.

Conservatives are playing a distraction game by saying "don't invoke class warfare." The class war is already OVER. We lost. We're not discussing how to stop post-class-warfare class genocide.

So...do all you surfs realize that the U.S. already has the lowest paid vacation rate in the world. Americans get an average of 13 paid days off per year. Even the Japanese, who have the SECOND least number of vacation days get 25.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #70
95. Actually, when you consider that US vacation is not MANDATED, that number is actually ZERO days.
Sure, Americans average a measly 12 days off . . . that is, IF the said corporation/business gives it to you. Under current U.S. standards and unlike the rest of the industrialized world, paid vacation isn't mandated by national law. So they don't have to do anything if they don't want to - they merely choose to. Or in some cases, choose not to.

And yes, it's WAAAAAAAAAY past time for the four-day work week. I'd be literally SLAP HAPPY if I could just work a five day, but ONE day a week from home. I'd be happy with just that. Going in to work 5 days a week is a complete drain on already dwindling resources.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #70
150. LABOR UNITED .... would get us there -- all we have to do is organize .....
We are all labor --

Refuse to work and set our own rates of employment and terms of employment --

Make corporations come to us for employees --


These monopoly corporations have to be broken up --

deny them profits --

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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #150
188. But do they need us anymore in this global economy? Is there another nation positioned to become
the world's number 1 consumer? Seems there are plenty that have already surpassed the US in manufacturing. Combine those exploited workforces and they really kick our ass. We need a solidarity movement that is global, but will they join us? For some, the explotation wages are a helluvalot better than the poverty they were caught in before.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #150
211. Of course, then we'd have to re-regulate the corptocracy.
The regulations that were a part of the "New Deal," the ones that got America and the world out of "The First Great Depression" would have to be reinstated. Plus, even more "evil regulations" that would require corporations to pay large fines and tariffs on their imported products if they choose to "outsource."

Please name a country (besides America) that does not put tariffs (taxes) on imported goods that compete with the products that they produce. If they don't use tariffs then they artificially manipulate the value of their currency (like China) so their products are cheaper to buy, even in their own country.

Absurdly, because China manipulates the value of their currency and do not regulate their citizens wages (they also use slave labor) or the damage that is done to their environment (even though"their" environment affects the world environment), products "made in China" can (and do)

sell for less in America than we can manufacture them for. Even with the additional (substantial) transportation charges, Their manufacturers can realize a substantial profit by competing with America in it's own market, "America."

It would be in the best interest of everyone in the world, except a few wealthy (some of them American) "businessmen", if those products were produced in the market that they are sold in. It is the same principal for third world countries.

FAIR trade, not FREE trade is the answer to our unemployment. Of course, at least our senior politicians, are very aware of this. We can withdraw from these "free trade agreements whenever "they" want.

Even worse is the de-regulation of our financial market. "They" have replaced manufacturing, with sophisticated money laundering. Because they convince the propagandized masses that if they are deregulated, they can finance American manufacturing jobs.

Of course, American politicians that are bought and paid for, make all of this "conspiracy" much easier. Probably, many of the politicians who owe so much to these corporations, don't even realize what, besides voting for legislation that is advantageous to their corporate donors, is actually happening.

The destruction of a once great country, by a mafia style cabal of ruthless, very wealthy people who own the American SCOTUS (probably a few of them are "in on" the plan), some state politicians and more than a few federal politicians, is the "plan." IMO, when one of these politicians "catches on" to the big plan, he/she is either silenced (various means) or given a higher office and a larger "share of the pie."

If nothing else, it might be a decent book outline. The "uneducated masses" would never believe they were wrong.
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liberalmike27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #70
249. Retiring at 55
Most fail to consider that when people retire at 55, that also makes those jobs available to the rest, decreasing unemployment. It was the same when they put the 65 age limit on receiving SS insurance. And since there is 2.7 Trillion in the fund, there is plenty to tide us over this hard time too.

Get rid of the cap, and we'd have enough to cover it.

The $20 an hour would help the demand part of our situation. Supply side has worked so well for those who "supply" that there is no longer widespread enough demand.
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
177. Instead we bought tanks and bullets
Yay! (Not...)
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. The only reason all those are not available is because we allow the productive gains of the masses..
to be siphoned off to prop up a tiny cabal of ultra rich people.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Exactly! n/t
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Yep
As simple as that
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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
80. Simple is beautiful in my Universe. nt
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. I wish we could start a war
on potholes. That would make me smile.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
52. and think of the jobs created. nt
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brewens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
229. Let them fill up with cars and paint them black! Good for the automobile
industry too.
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TrollBuster9090 Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
71. They keep saying "don't tax the rich or they'll leave." Leave for WHERE exactly?
The U.S. has the lowest top tax rates in the developed world, and American CEOs make an average salary equal to 400X that of the average worker. The Japanese executives are only making a piffling 10X more, the Germans and the British 40X more. How about we dump these American CEOs and import some Japanese ones that will work for 1/10th the amount. Then take the savings and use them to increase productivity by hiring 390 more workers?

Yes it's true, the rich can put their money in tax havens like the Bahamas, but they do that now, and they'd do that no matter WHAT the tax rate is. The solution to that problem is to close the tax loopholes that make that possible. SCREW THE TRADE EMBARGO ON CUBA. SLAP A TRADE EMBARGO ON BIMINI. If you want to pay taxes in the Bahamas, you can be a CITIZEN of the Bahamas and live there. No American passport for YOU. And don't expect the U.S. Marines to come and rescue your dual-citizen ass when there is a coup or an invasion.
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geardaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #71
148. +1000
Well said
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #71
157. "Bus-i-ness" is BS ... because of it we've lost the planet ...
Had elites never engaged in "bus-i-ness" as a way to profit by exploiting nature

and animal life and labor, we'd be ahead of the game.

There was no need for all of this BS --


Elites are also engaged from Day 1 in moving the wealth and assets of the nation from

the many to the few -- redistributing the "wealth" of the nation from Day 1 -- !!


We have also given Elites/Corporations the privilege of not only exploiting nature and

human labor, but of polluting our atmosphere -- air, drinking water, oceans -- soil.


We have also provided corporations with cover and protection of our MIC/CIA which allows

them to operate in highly destructive ways all over the planet!

Time to present Elits/corporations the bill for 500 years of their suicidal destruction!!


As economists make clear -- in raising corporations -- industrial revolution -- we have

destroyed the planet.


And, I'd add -- we have enabled great wealth for the few based on crime -- and given

the Elites the power and influence to buy our government.

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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #157
192. Well said.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #71
158. You nailed it...n/t
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #71
193. Yup!
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #71
203. Been saying that for years
If they are that determined to avoid paying taxes, they're already left.
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
92. Precisely
We have the means and the productive capability, the rewards just get sent off in the wrong direction....
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
108. + 1 (nt)
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
175. +1
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muffin1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
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cabot Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. absolutely agree!
plus, with a four day work week, employers could hire other people to work three days a week and maybe unemployment would be lowered.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. Recommended. nt
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
:toast:
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. There's no reason why we can't get it down to a 15-20 hour work week once the parasites are gone.
My only point of contention with your post :)
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
76. +1
:-)
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. But don't you like having 700 MB's to combat the terrorists?? I mean I feel safer, you? n/t
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
11. America has $50,000 a year in per capita income
Of course, due to income inequality most people get by with 10-15k a year in per capita income.

But if we distributed it as efficiently as nations like France do we could achieve that. They have 38k a year in per capita income. But due to a more efficient health care system and lower income inequality they work 200-400 hours a year less than Americans and have a higher standard of living, more reliable health care, more accessible education, etc.

The US's income inequality is now as bad as most of latin America, and worse than several parts.

How bad is it going to get? That is what I want to know. How bad does it have to get before 51% of the electorate stops being distracted by misinformation and divide and conquer strategies enough to vote so their kids don't end up living in a car?
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Good ideas, but which politicians should they vote for?
Sorry, but the Democrats can no longer pretend they represent the working classes either

:shrug:
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
50. I agree
Edited on Tue Aug-02-11 09:54 PM by Juche
No idea. Maybe this is our goldwater moment, when we realize we need to start working on the state and local level, and maybe 20 years from now we will have a viable national movement. ALEC does most of their work on the state and local level, because you have the most impact there.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #18
149. True -- but it seems to be a concept that some are wishy-washy about ....
What is left of the Democratic Party after 20 years of infiltration and

influence of Koch Bros DLC?

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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
210. Representing the working classes would make THEM somehow working class. :shudder:
No. Just no. Ooo. Don't go there. :sarcasm:

Most all of them are multi-millionaires, like Pelosi and Reid.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
147. Think a new movement has to begin with everyone uniting as UNITED LABOR ....
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 10:15 AM by defendandprotect
No one works until corporations come to us --

We set the rates and the terms of the working conditions -- hours and pay scale.

Break up monopoly corporations --

Break up MIC -- bring the troops home --

Everyone is labor --

And we have something like 21% now not working -- when we consider people who have

had to take part time jobs and those working jobs they are overqualified for.


We could work this out -- we'd all have to support one another with food and health

care -- on voluneer basis until we had control over govenrment again.

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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #147
238. IMO,That is the "fly in the ointment."
Health care! If we had universal health care, like all of the other "civilized nations," then Americans would be free to explore "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Really, currently if a person wants to work a 30 hour week or even explore a different job. Then they have to worry about being able to afford health care. Especially people who have a "pre-existing condition."

A young person with no health problems has the ability to "gamble" that they will remain relatively healthy which gives them the opportunity to try alternatives in employment.

As we get older, especially if we have health problems, we are stuck. Most of us cannot afford health care if we have pre-existing conditions or are past middle age.

Undoubtedly, our masters have thought of this.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #238
286. Health care is the current tool they are using to destroy citizens and community ....
Edited on Thu Aug-04-11 03:53 PM by defendandprotect
and democracy --

Not too much different from any of the other tools they are using --

like destroying safety nets -- and giving corporations free reign to use

criminal practices in business.

And then ending bankruptcy laws as they used to exist.


Small businesses are in favor of universal health care for the reasons you cite --

the ability of larger corporations to carry the costs is unfair competition.


But do want to get back to the discussion of UNITED LABOR --

This is a liberal nation -- for many reasons we are going to have to soon become

more united in community -- peak oil is bringing that on -- Global Warming is, as well.

We could wait a little longer for either of those two conditions to propel us forward

or we could try to use the power of labor and withdrawing profits/dollars from

corporations now to end this madness. But it would take uniting as communities to

do it, each supporting the other -- and as we both point out it would have to include

health care.

The Founders were at best schizophrenic -- talking out of the left and the rights sides

of their mouths at the same time? Whether we look at "Equality for all" or their fear

of capital as a threat to democracy, we see it -- yet, much of the founding benefited

the elite in land grants, etal. Elites understood that "democracy" and the concept of

freedom of thought and freedom of conscience and a free press were the greatest threats

to them -- but that they also had time to destroy this attempt at democracy.

Thom Hartmann recently mentioned that Thomas Jefferson said -- if I understood this

correctly -- that our Constitution was written to ensure that democracy wouldn't rise again!




EPIC might have some details for us on this community idea -- that was Henry Wallace's

old program for California.

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anarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. Fucking-A
Absolutely fuckin' right. Why is that point of view such a bad thing?

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. except you know who is against that
all the people who currently make $20 an hour or more. They would not want to see minimum wages triple unless their own wages tripled.

And if evrrything tripled, then we would all be in the same place, just using bigger denominations.

Considering some of my co-workers and some of the people DUing while on the clock, I'd like to see people actually working before I paid them $20 an hour.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
151. No -- Minimum wage is the floor under all other worker wages ....
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 10:25 AM by defendandprotect
Yes -- when Minimum wage goes up, so do other wages --

Considering some of my co-workers and some of the people DUing while on the clock, I'd like to see people actually working before I paid them $20 an hour.

Our government has been taken over by corporate/fascists --

Our Congress is under the control of OIL and COAL industry --

CEO's have been making 500X what average worker makes for decades now and that's what bothers you?



Wow --


Also consider that when people DU, they may be learning something about government and

how to take back control of it from fascists?


Production has increased by 35% over decades -- yet worker salaries have stagnated -- !!

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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
155. Wrong...I make that and my spouse makes more...We are NOT against it, we are in favor of it.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
16. The rich always need new livers and kidneys and hearts. They'll be pouching ours. nt
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. If the GOP leaders agreed to that,
they'd mandate everyone must die at age 54, and there wouldn't be any jobs anyway.

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brewens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. You will never see a right-winger give an analogy of a guy making
it working hard 40 hours a week. It's always 60-70 hours. They try and condition people to believe that's what they should be doing to expect to succeed.

I had one of those jobs for awhile. When I did get vacation time, everything was such a cluster when I got back that it wasn't even worth it.
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IthinkThereforeIAM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
69. I hear you...

... I was in such a job myself, heck even when I came in the next day, it was like Quantum Leap, I would walk through the doors and say, "where am I?". Never knew if I had to clean up the previous tour's (hint hint) mess or if the deluge was going to fall on me and my tour. It mentally and physically exhausted me.

It shouldn't have to be that way, but then some of us have a solid "PWE", as one of my history professors taught us. You know, work hard, take it easy on the booze, take it easy on the women and you will have a balanced and productive life. Hmmm, I think I am starting to ramble off topic.

Later.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #69
159. We should move to a 5 hour day -- almost everyone can work that schedule ...!!
LABOR HAS TO UNITE -- UNITED LABOR --

until we do that and deny profits to corporations, we'll be no where.


Everyone is labor --

UNITED LABOR would set wages, working hours -- vacation schedules -- benefits.

Corporations would be forced to come to us --


Limiting their profits/wealth and regaining control over our government would

enable us to dismantle corporations.


We already have tens of millions unemployed -- perhaps as much as 21% of the nation!


This corporate/fascist rule, imo, is also to hide one of their biggest secrets --

Global Warming and the immense damage it has already one over 20 years -- aside from

the melting of the glaciers which has been going on since 1940's!!


Let's charge Elites/Corporations for the mess they've made!!



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Proles Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
20. A vision for a great a society.
And it's not unrealistic.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
21. It would open up positions and circulate money into the economy.
Too good for the American people.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
22. Now that is what it's all about.
A better future for ALL. How, eh, Democratic!
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Until the Democrats start from those positions, their 'compromise' is a joke
:-(
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. The joke's on us.
To see a Democratic president espouse the crappy idea that the president is no more than a "caretaker" is repugnant, for it is a republican notion.

In his inaugural address, the wimp and traitor George Herbert Walker Bush said our nation has "more will than wallet." Meaning, we have good ideas -- "the vision thing" -- but there's no money to put them into play.

The reality, of course, is there's always money for Poppy's cronies, from Wall Street and the Great S&L bailout, to permawar, even though the USSR was no more.

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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
23. and there should be a reverse osmosis water system on every streetcorner and
the government as well as all the corporate polluters should be required to pay for it. Free clean good water for everyone.
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Zanzoobar Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Every street corner?
Why not just pump it right into the houses and put in on every fifth street corner? Seems a lot easier. Most of the infrastructure is already there.

While they're at it, they can fill my tank with gas and feed my idiot neighbor. He eats waaaaay to many Slim Jims. Guy could use a drop-in nutritionist a couple times a week to keep him on the sraight and narrow.
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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
25. One question. For those jobs that do not generate $20 per hr of revenue,
should those jobs be eliminated? Due to the nature of my business, I can track the direct revenue generated by my two part time employees. For one, it was $17.88 p/h from Jan 1 to June 30 2011. The other was $18.01 p/h for the same period. Each is paid by me $13.00 p/h (actual total payroll costs is $14.39 p/h with employer taxes included). Should I get rid of them?
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Going strictly by revenue, we'd have to fire every elected official in DC
Which, come to think of it...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #32
161. Great point -- and obviously we're paying them to betray citizens and destroy environment -- !!
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #25
84. If the vast majority was making more then there would be more clients willing to pay more. (nt)
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #84
111. So you are going to pay $14 for a drive-thru burger?
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #111
114. I think that a burger large enough to drive through should cost even more than that. nt.
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #114
117. hiyo!
:thumbsup:
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #114
118. what if it's made of foam
:)
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #111
219. if the minimum wage were $20... McDonalds would have burger flipping MACHINES. nt
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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #219
227. Burger King cooks them on a conveyer belt.
No flipping. They move through a machine on a rotating chain. You pry them apart frozen, stick them in, and they come out cooked on the other side. Then you have to flip them over before you put them on the bun... so if the customer looks at the burger, they'll see the chain side. The chain leaves a mark that makes it look like it was grilled. But only on one side.

And by the way, I was told to grab the frozen burgers with my bare hands and pull them out cooked on the other side, against the instructions of the training video, which said two people had to work the machine, one on each side, so you weren't touching the frozen meat and the cooked meat. I became a vegetarian shortly after that.
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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
88. There would be an adjustment in the economy
You would have to raise your prices, but there would be more money in the hands of consumers to pay.

Some business models might break, but for the most part, what works now will continue to do so, just the numbers will change. Only businesses that were completely unsustainable to begin with would no longer function.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #88
121. So, inflation is the answer
Your people who earned 13 and are now earning 20 now find THEY have to pay 35% more for their stuff too because the people making stuff for them also got a raise.

So, effectively there's no pay raise at all.
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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #121
224. It's not that simple.
Prices are still affected by competition, and if instead of increasing the minimum wage you had a mechanism where the cost of living is calculated and the minimum adjusted accordingly (ie, a living wage law instead of a minimum wage law), then as time passes and the economy adjusts to the change, while some inflation may happen, big businesses will see themselves obliged to take smaller profit margins, but will have a much wealthier consumer base and can continue making more money by branching out into other areas and creating new businesses. It would actually lead to more economic growth and more innovation.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #88
162. True ... if a company can only survive on underpaying employees, should it be in business?
And what about the idea of worker-controlled business and profit sharing --

Where did that idea ever go?

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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #162
226. I think a living wage would change the dynamic of how a lot of business works
That is to say, a lot of businesses that can't afford to pay a living wage today would be able to, because of the overall improved spending power of the consumer base. But that said, there are business models that depend on near-slave labor... actually, most consumer goods do these days. These businesses should change or be eliminated, they're not helping.

What I would propose, in addition to instituting a living wage in the U.S., would be not to ban imported goods altogether, but to require a living wage for all imported goods as well, based on the cost of living where they're made (and assuming a similar standard of living as whatever we consider acceptable in the U.S.). That way people can still produce goods overseas and sell them in the U.S., but only if they're building up those other parts of the world instead of exploiting them, and at the same time narrowing the gap a little bit between the cost of manufacturing in the U.S. and overseas.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #226
284. Agree -- interesting post ---
and I wouldn't argue against reinstating tariffs!!



:hi:
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
100. How much 'revenue' does a medical worker 'generate'?
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #100
110. Judging by my recent hospital stay, about $3000/day
of course that assumes that all the fancy machinery is free, because supposedly only labor creates value.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #110
163. There's very little machinery which doesn't require humans to run it -- and tend to it ...
However that was the point of Luddites -- they didn't hate machinery --

they were against the concept of people being replaced by machinery.


Rather, our medical care has been reversed in getting away from preventive

medicine -- which insurance companies are also now complicating even further

in causing delays in early care of illnesses.


Medical care -- health and well-being -- is a benefit to the nation -- and

for us all. THAT has to be the profit considered!

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greymattermom Donating Member (680 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #25
104. no
but if you let them know this, they may be able to figure out how to work more efficiently. you could offer a pay increase to a certain percent of what they generate.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
113. apples to oranges
There's no way to perfectly predict how revenues for most things would change if the minimum wage was greatly increased, healthcare was given as a human right, taxes were fair, etc. It sounds like you're paying them well already, but if you could pay them more, you don't think they'd just throw the money away, do you?
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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #113
223. No, I don't think they would throw the money away. I guess my question
was about what percentage of worker productivity going to the boss is too much? If the answer is zero % should go to the owner what is the incentive to have a business and hire people? I am getting a bit less than 20%. I hope that that is fair. I don't know.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #223
265. It's probably fair to you.
You actually know your employees, and I imagine what you're taking is fair. How much people get paid doesn't really matter to me at all, but I think they should be taxed accordingly. If you were getting a bit less than 20% but you had 50,000 employees, no matter what they were paid, I think you'd be making enough to be taxed more than anyone in the US is right now.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #25
144. Yes to your first question.
And if you're dissatisfied with only $7.50 in hourly profit, the answer to second question is also yes.

Of course, there's always someone who will be satisfied with $7.50 in hourly profit, so someone will pick up the slack.

If the job needs doing customers will pay a price which has the local price of labor baked in.

Here's the thing about minimum wages. When you talk about raising the minimum wage, businessmen scream that it'll put them out of business. "I can't raise my prices 20%!!!"

The minimum wage goes up and the hapless business owner raises his prices, knowing it'll be his ruination. Much to his surprise, he finds that his competition has raised their prices too. Go figure. Never saw that coming. Further, he now finds that business is doing even better. "I don't know where these new customers are coming from, but I'm not complaining!"

The inverse? If only this dang minimum wage would go away, I'd be rich! I'd undercut all these bastards!

I've concluded that business majors are idiots.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #25
160. What effect is your business having on the environment, if any -- ?
What if you had to agree to human standards of employment --

working rates and conditions, benefits --

Would YOU still have a business?

Maybe that's the question -- what is your business actually contributing to the

well being of the nation?

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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #160
208. My business actually helps the environment. I buy cars, strip the resellable
parts and sell them on specialty websites/ebay, and recycle the remaining metal. A pretty progressive business in that it gets cash into the havds of people how need it (those with broken down cars), sells parts so people of limited means can keep their cars on the road, and recycles the remaining metal so less mining need to take place.

Whould I still have a business at $20 p/h per employee? Yes. I would just go back to doing everything myself like I did for the first two years. No employees.

I think my business does contribute to the well being of the nation as described above.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #208
251. Your competitors would have to pay their employees more and the sellable prices of parts would rise
and then you would pull in more income thereby allowing you to hire higher paid personnel.
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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #251
269. Since most of them are paying people under the table already, I don't think so. nt
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #269
270. Guess you should be paying people under the table too, since
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 10:56 PM by w4rma
you are abiding by the law, you aren't competitive, right now. Then again, you could work to get that law better enforced and perhaps help investigate your competitors. Instead you promote anti-competitiveness, law breaking and slave wages.
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kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
26. Love it.
Best idea!
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Electric Monk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
28. Retirement age should be 22, min wage should be $50/hr, and a workweek of 2 days
This thread needs more ponies with rainbows shooting out of their butts.

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. With technology and our productivity, it's possible
I was being conservative

:-)
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OnlinePoker Donating Member (837 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
58. So, start a business and get to it.
Edited on Tue Aug-02-11 10:34 PM by OnlinePoker
I'm sure a lot of people on DU would want to work in that situation, though, if people want to work beyond 55, you should let them.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #58
168. How many corporations would exist if they had to pay for the environmental damage they do ... ?
Or fair wages -- with fair working conditions?

If corportions can only survive on slave labor, then they shouldn't be in business!!

Industry has cost us the planet -- it's time to wake up to that!

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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
49. I guess you'd prefer
No retirement age, no minimum wage, and 80 hour workweeks.

thats what the Turd Way Democrats advocate.
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #28
93. Disagree
The OP is correct. The numbers might be off just a bit, but not by very much.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
165. Yes.
And if those conditions of the OP were met, the ones in yours would be the demand!
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
30. K&R
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
33. Yea, but I bet most everyone would be satisfied watching more Shock and Awe on their plasma TV's
I have seen this movie before and already know the ending.

Don
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #33
169. "Idleness is the beginning of all wisdom" -- !! Libraries could be open 24 hours a day --
We might rid television of the propaganda and violence as "entertainment" --

Every human being comes to know themselves by their own creative work --

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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
34. Don't forget 8 weeks guaranteed paid vacation (nt)
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #34
156. Hell, most of Europe has at least five weeks, if I'm not mistaken. n/t
I remember talking to an Aussie who said that one of the

reasons he enjoyed being self-employed was because he

wouldn't get "only" five weeks vacation.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #156
167. Paid Vacation Days in 9 countries - US dead last and losing more ground
Italy 42 days
France 37 days
Germany 35 days
Brazil 34 days
United Kingdom 28 days
Canada 26 days
Korea 25 days
Japan 25 days
U.S. 13 days

Read more: Paid Vacation Around the World Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922052.html#ixzz1TyygkA...
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riverbendviewgal Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #167
184. I retired at age 57
was working for same company from 1988 to 2005...had 6 weeks vacation.

It was great.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #184
212. What a wonderful world it would be - if we could all do that.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #167
247. Yes, the US also has the smallest "safety net" of every western democracy and
the usual right wing mofos are trying to destroy even THAT.

Thanks for the link on vacations around the world.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #34
170. Why not -- unless you also undervalue your own labor?
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
35. YAY!
I'm with you!

Give the people time to enjoy life. And other things. Like dignity. Health.

I live each day with the things you mentioned. And I sheepishly admit that I am living that very life. I just want to see others enjoy it too.
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LongTomH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
36. K&R
Years ago, when I started reading 'futurists' nearly half a century ago, they were predicting that we'd be working 20-25 hours a week and we'd all be rich. If workers were getting a fair share of the productivity they're producing, that's what would be happening!
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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. What is a fair share of of the productivity that a worker should get? Please
be realistic. I posted above about my two part time employees. For one they generqated $17.88 p/h from Jan 1 to June 30 2011. The other generated $18.01 p/h for the same period. Each is paid by me $13.00 p/h (actual total payroll costs is $14.39 p/h with employer taxes included). Is that too little? Too much? What percentage of the worker's production should the owner get? I am really interested in peoples thoughts on this. However, answers like 100% of production should go to the worker is not realistic. Why would I hire someone and deal with all the hassles that entails if it does not benefit me?
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Why should I hire someone if it does not benefit me?
Edited on Tue Aug-02-11 08:30 PM by Nye Bevan
That is a very capitalist line of thinking. And capitalism is generally frowned upon on DU.
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Have you ever ran a business?
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I wasn't saying that the poster was wrong (nt)
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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Self delete - responded to wrong post. nt
Edited on Tue Aug-02-11 08:38 PM by kelly1mm
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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. I know that, but I am really interested in the answer. Most other businesses
want to squeeze out at least 50% from what some of the others in my business are doing (basically by paying minimum wage, usually by paying under the table). I am not anywhere close to that but my employees are legal and show up for work when I need them and are not (usually) drunk when they do so so I am OK with the arrangement.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Thanks for letting us know your employees 'are not (usually) drunk'
:eyes:
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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Well one did come to work drunk twice. The only reason it is important
Edited on Tue Aug-02-11 09:14 PM by kelly1mm
is that others in my business who pay less per hour have more turnover and attendance problems that they are always complaining about. Sorry if you don't understand the realities of the workplace. I am just relaying my experience and trying to gage if I am doing the right thing by my employees.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #47
173. You're not reciting the realities of the workplace -- you're reporting on corporate/fascism ....
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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #173
207. I am reporting on my small business with 2 employees and what others
in my area are doing. That's it. Take it for what you will.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #207
271. If we didn't have corporate/fascism, minimum wage would be $20 per hour .....
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 11:32 PM by defendandprotect
question isn't whether you should let them go in such a circumstance,

but whether a business can run a profit if it can't rely on exploiting labor?

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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #43
64. So then you are not part of the problem.
The problem is mega-corps like Walmart paying their employees so little they qualify for foodstamps, and housing benefits, and medicaid, etc... essentially pushing all of the costs onto taxpayers instead. How would you like competing directly with a national chain that paid workers 60% what you do knowing that government programs would step in to keep their employees alive and functioning on a basic level? What if they then undercut you with all your customers, drove you out of business and then jacked up their prices so they were screwing over workers and overcharging customers? Plus it's a "right to work" state so the employees can't unionize...

That's what happening all over America. The fact that you pay a reasonable wage doesn't mean that a *serious* reform of working conditions doesn't need to be addressed like yesterday.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #64
174. +1000% --
We need Americans to unite as LABOR --

UNITED LABOR would set the wages and working conditions -- benefits -- vacations --

whatever --

Corporations would have to come to UNITED LABOR to negotiate for labor --

no labor/no profits --


Gradually reducing corporate wealth would and regainin gcontrol over our government!!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #43
172. And do you have profit-sharing ... ?
You're citing the downward spiral that exists in corporate control of labor --

which is unhealthy for the nation and humanity.

We need labor to be setting the standards, conditions and wages -- not corporations.

We need to be dismantling corporations.

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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #172
213. No, I don't have profit sharing. I am not a corporation, just a sole proprietor.
I pay my two employees about $4 p/h more than others in my line of work though ($13 p/h v.s $9) for reasons stated above. My question is what rate of return should I be expecting? After everything is expensed out I make about $3.50 per hour from each of my employees. They make $13 per hour. Is that fair? I really don't know. I do know that I really don't think I would be willing to to take on the hassles of employing them for much less. Should I just go back to doing everything myself, forgo the whopping $3087 in employee generated profits from the first 6 months of this year and eliminate the $9127 in wages I paid for the same period? Maybe. Maybe not. I will be fine either way. I don't know about my employees though.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #213
272. Would you be in business if the minimum wage was $20 per hour ... ?
That's really the question --

I think you probably would be -- but that all other circumstances would also

be better.

Again -- we're in a downward spiral because of corporate/fascism -- and its control

over our government. Everything has been gimmicked to serve business -- not small

business -- corporations.


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #39
171. Why should you profit at all from someone else's labor ... ?
What profit could you make without those two employees?

Let's get back to the concept of profit-sharing and employee-run business --

Let's get back to the concept of labor united -- setting its wages and standards --

working condition rules -- benefits.

If you couldn't afford to hire labor at an acceptable wage, would your relatives

work for you for free?


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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #171
228. You are right. I should just fire them so I am not exploiting them. That will teach me! nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #228
273. Well, that seems to be the answer you like best ---
I think you're an honest person --

I'm not trying to make you feel badly -- I'm just trying to make clear

where we are and why -- and what effect that has on employee and employer.


Things need to be a lot better -- and certainly for labor.


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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #39
189. Too little
Ok, here's the deal. I do not mean to be mean. Just giving you my honest reaction to your question.

Your business is inefficient and failing if you cannot afford to pay your people more than $13/hr.

That is ridiculously low pay. I think that a business should need a license to be able to pay people that little. (in a perfect world) A few businesses maybe can justify it by proving that they cater to teenage employment, training, or something.

Success means not only you are doing well, but all the people around you as well. Best of luck in the future, but currently you are not successful. I would suggest seeing if you can get more productivity out of each worker. I have no idea what they do.
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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #189
200. A $20 minimum wage would shut down every retailer in the country or collapse the economy
Take your pick.

Just for the hell of it I looked up a couple companies, Walgreens made a 3.37% profit for the trailing 12 months. Best Buy made a 2.5% profit. Kroger made a 1.35% profit. So what do you think would happen to these razor thin profits if employee costs almost tripled?

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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #200
230. Employee costs wouldn't triple. Not all employees are earning the minimum.
And what percentage of their operating costs are employees earning under $20 an hour now?
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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #230
241. No one in non-mgmt retail makes anywhere near $41,600 per year
The 3.3 million cashiers in the US average $9.52 per hour and keep in mind that's a national average if you took out cali and NY the average would go down quite a bit I think.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes412011.htm


The 4.15 million retail salespeople average $12.02 per hour.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes412031.htm

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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #241
245. Employee costs include management.
Business operating costs include CEOs and boards of directors and all those people who each take a lion's share. They can double or triple what they pay their employees and would make the same amount of profit with a modest increase in prices and/or paying less to their CEOs.
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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #245
267. CEOs and other top mgmt make their obscene earnings through stock options not straight payroll.
and board members don't receive direct compensation.
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kelly1mm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #189
217. I really like what I do. It is fun (to me) and I am not materialistic so I am
OK with what I make doing it. Maybe you are right. I can go back to doing this like I did the first two years and do it myself. In the first 6 mnths of this year my 'share' of the profits from employee labor was $3087 while my payroll expense was $9127. I can certainly forgo that income as this is a sideline for me. However, for at least one of my employees, he needs the income to pay rent. I hope it works out for them.
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IthinkThereforeIAM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #36
72. I recall that, too...

... how technology was going to allow the single worker to be more productive and put in fewer hours for more pay. Where did that go? I am taking a SWAG (scientific wild arsed guess) into the compensation of the CEO. After all, isn't he the one whose brilliant idea was to install that robotic welder that the CNC trained tool and die maker operates?

I am not being ignorant of the capital investment for upgrades in processing/manufacturing equipment, but something got lost or taken, is probably the more fitting word.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
48. Sounds good to me! How do you propose to get there?
And before you give some BS answer like "elect REAL Progressives", please tell me how we do that?
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
51. You sir, are a great economist!
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workinclasszero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
56. I'm proud to be an American well at least I know I'm free..
To die in a ditch with no health care, no job or Mcjob, not enough $ in the bank to put gas in your car and your children doomed to a nightmare existence of starvation and deprivation or a short life and violent end in one of the countless wars to keep the military industrial machine running.

Its great to know that my early family members who fought and died in the civil war, WW1, WW2, Korea and the cold war put everything they had on the line so fascist leaches like Bill Gates, Rush Limpballs, Goebbels Murdock, Tea party nazis, DLC, Wall street, etc could rape and pillage this country and enslave us all!

Shit Apple has more $$$ than the US government!! WTF!!??

We should have known when NAFTA was rammed through, it was the beginning of the end for the working middle class in America. The huge non-taxpaying corporations could care less about americans now. Its all about China and India. We are unimportant as a market. All we are good for is to shine their shoes and pick their fuckin tomatoes.

As soon as President Obama can talk the rethugs into destroying SS and Medicare, it will be over. If I was younger I would get out now and head to Canada and beg them to let me stay.

Unless something earth shaking happens the USA is finished as far as I can tell.
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Stumbler Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
57. I agree, but unfortunately we don't live in 'Should-land'
We could easily pay for everyone's education and retirement, but instead, we'd rather pay for billionaires to be wealthier in the hopes they might shower that wealth down on us....
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
59. k&r
And the wealthy pricks who have enriched themselves on our labor need to cough up the fucking dough.
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
60. The era of compromise is over, we're in the era of "shared" sacrifice now.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
61. Agree.
And I actually wouldn't even mind it if retirement were 65 and the work week stayed 5 days. But we should have free healthcare and shut down these fucking wars and military bases and weapons programs. And end corporate welfare.
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rdubwiley Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
62. uhhhhhhhh
good luck paying for that. I'm pretty liberal, but at least I understand the limits of taxes and government programs. Retiring at 65 is pretty decent. A nation can't retire at 55 unless it wants severe unemployment
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #62
89. How about a realistic compromise of 63?
Written in stone.
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #62
94. It could do so at about 60 or so
with early out at 55.

Think of all those early retirees with time to do things like volunteer work in libraries, parks, schools, nursing homes, animal shelters and alike (which should be a condition of early retirement in my opinion).

Early retirees would be taking up new hobbies (spending money on them, creating demand), vacationing more (creating demand in the travel & hospitality industries) and alike,

The entire system needs to be re-thought and the OP is certainly on the right track.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #62
103. "Severe unemployment?" How do you get there from early retirement?
First, in case you haven't noticed, we have "severe unemployment" right now - and among the young it's reached something like 25% - I'm too lazy to look up the exact # right now.

Early retirement would open up jobs.

And 65 is not "pretty decent" if your job is standing behind a cash register all day or working in construction - in fact, in many cases it's physically impossible.

In fact, 65 is ridiculous.

K & R for the OP
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Fla_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
65. Ok, are you hiring?
You have a great business model, and seem to have a handle on how things should be. I am assuming you are willing to put your money where your ideas are.

When do you want me to start?






:smoke:
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Oasis_ Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
66. Reality...
Mocks and frowns upon this thread.

Oasis
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Jim_Shorts Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
67. We have to organize and get just as bat-shit crazy left as teabaggers are right
We have a model with FDR. The politicians were afraid if they didn't give the people what they wanted, bad things were going to happen, and I think they probably would have.

We have to start fighting or start making more of those poor houses.
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mythology Donating Member (169 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
73. Retirement at 55 isn't really feasible economically
Social Security was set up with far more workers paying into the system for each retiree and people today are living far longer. Mathematically it doesn't work, especially if you want to basically say that people will pay in to the system for 30 years and take out for almost as long.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. How much do Wall Street & the DOD 'pay into the system' vs what they take out?
Yeah, I thought so

Why is it always LABOR that must sacrifice so that CAPITALISTS can have the most?
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #75
90. Thank you!
"But the DOD is for the good of the country!" :eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #75
126. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
indurancevile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #73
86. of course it's feasible. half the so-called "jobs" are non-productive anyway,
& at least a quarter of them have to do with "managing" the ill-effects of poverty & income disparity.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #86
222. +1
That's an excellent point.

Have you thought about working up an OP on that? Could be an interesting thread!
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #73
99. 20 years and a pension seemed to work for some jobs.
Why not yours? Heck I'd settle for 30.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #99
127. Not really.
Our city had that and we are now contributing around 50% of firefighters salaries to try and make of for it. How can you really think someone can work for 20 years and draw a full pension for 40-50 years (essentially 70 years of pay for 20 years of work). And mind you, these are jobs paying well over $20 an hour.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #127
134. And yet it worked for decades - and then we got Reagan
and the whole value system was turned upside down. Now we can't afford shit - we can't afford to pay our teachers, our police, our firemen, we can't afford to send our kids to school, we can't afford to retire, and our new lords and masters are living in mega-mansions surrounded by Armed Response and laughing at the scam of the century.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #134
153. You realize why it worked for decades, right?
For the first 20 years, you had people paying in, with no one collecting. For the next 20 years, you had x number working and contributing and roughly x collecting their pension. Then, 20 years later, most of those original people are still alive and you now have 2 times the number of retirees than workers currently contributing. That is where we are today. This does not involve politics - it is simple mathematics. Again, you CANNOT expect 70 years of pay for 20 years of work.
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emsimon33 Donating Member (904 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
78. Ah, Europe--just a utopia!
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
79. Well, the way we got a five day work week and any minimum wage was...
by strong unions applying pressure.

If you want higher wages and less hours worked, join, or start, a union in your workplace.

We've got to progress from the bottom up, because the top down approach doesn't work.
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wundermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
81. With retirement at 55, min wage at $20/hr, free medical, and a 4 day work week...
There would be full employment and even the poorest among us could enjoy a decent life.
That's utopian and ridiculous.
Not at all, it's the American Dream.
Time to wake up and make it happen.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #81
140. Americans need to understand we are all labor --
We could unite under one banner -- LABOR UNITED --

and set our own wages and work demands -- rules about corporatiosn --

and refuse to work for anything less.


Elites/corportions are united in every way --- up, down and sideways -- endless

hierarchies of powers -- and they've now corporatized our colleges and universities.


Americans are not united at all!!

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Serve The Servants Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
82. K&R
x1000
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
83. K&R
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indurancevile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
85. knr. for sure. what a number they are doing on people, "oooh, we're sooo poooor,
sorry, everyone must work until they drop...(so we, the top .1%, can rake off half)"

it's such bullshit. it makes me so angry.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:15 AM
Original message
i support a 5 hour workday
workers would be more productive if we had more time to live our lives.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
87. i support a 5 hour workday
workers would be more productive if we had more time to live our lives.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
96. Uh, oh, you're a socialist.
I am too. They want people to think we're the terrorists rather than most of our current Congress. It's a crazy land we live in.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #96
277. It would work fine with capitalism
look no further than Sweden.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
101. Little known fact: UAW nearly achieved a 4-day workweek in 1979
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Luciferous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #101
131. I think a 4-day workweek is a great idea. My husband used to work at a company
that worked 10 hour days 4 days a week and he loved it. I also remember reading an article about how Utah adopted a 4-day workweek for state employees and it worked out really well for them. Not only did the state save money, the employees liked it and many of them started doing volunteer work on their extra day off.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #131
195. Not a 10 hour a day 4-day workweek. That doesn't help anything
We were negotiating an 8 hour per day, 4-day workweek.

Doing that requires 25% more employees to get the same amount of work done.

When we first negotiated this plan we began with one 8 hour per day, 4-day workweek each month and then the following year it was to go up to two 8 hour per day, 4-day workweeks each month incrementally until every week was an 8 hour per day, 4-day workweek each month.

It could not be done immediately because we couldn't hire and train enough new employees to cover the extra workers needed. As it was Ford was hiring everyone who walked into the door during that period.

The slogan at our Union convention the year before it began was "4 For 5", meaning 4 days work for 5 days pay.

Imagine if we had not have had to give this benefit back in concessions in later contracts. The pattern for a 4-day workweek would have set and that would have become the norm for everyone. Keep in mind to accomplish this employers would need to increase their workforce by 25%. So instead of having a 9.2% unemployment rate right now we would have more jobs than we could fill. It would be a workers paradise.

Don
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
102. All very possible, but for the problem of Capitalism.

It is the theft of labor and the resultant maldistribution of the fruits of that labor which holds us back.
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
105. Maybe EVERYTHING should be free - you wouldn't need minimum wage, work weeks OR a retirement age.
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 08:07 AM by Richardo
Wouldn't that be dreamy?
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. Slumming, Richardo?
Some of us do dream of a place without capitalism. Except that you have it backwards. Everyone would work - no exemptions for being born a rich asshole.
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #106
107. It's been tried.
Hasn't proved very sustainable, either. I blame the human element.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #107
136. So has capitalism - which also is not sustainable. You've seen
what we've done to the majority of the people and our environment.

FWIW I am not picking any particular system. I'd personally go in the direction of the Paris Communes, but that lasted exactly two months. Capitalism has lasted much longer and inflicted much more damage.

So, what's next?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #136
138. It seems to work fine in Sweden and Norway - why can't we be like them? nt
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #138
143. I found this article on Sweden which is very interesting -
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 10:05 AM by TBF
http://www.swedishwire.com/component/content/article/26... -

It may not be perfect (I tend to distrust any level of capitalism after the experience of living in this country), but it does look much better than here in terms of quality of living.

Now the question is how we get there.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #143
146. Embrace capitalism like they do and add the necessary regulations
to achieve social goals. Encourage the generation and accumulation of wealth within certain limits - Sweden has a lot of millionaires but billionaires are very rare.
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #146
257. This makes sense.
:thumbsup:
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #146
258. delete
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 07:18 PM by mvd
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #106
112. What about the people who don't want to work because their "back hurts"
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #112
129. Therein lies the problem
The only way to allow true socialism to work is to have a Gestapo style government. Otherwise, you can bet your ass I would say my back hurts, draw the same pay as everyone else and go play video games for a few weeks. How do you force people you work their fair share?
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #129
275. Good thing not all of us are lazy assholes.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #275
276. Nice job attacking me and not answering the question
I take it that means you don't have an answer?
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #276
279. I do, but I can tell you wouldn't understand it.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #279
281. ANOTHER attack and no answer
what a shock!
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #112
130. how about the death penalty for shirkers?
how about work being enjoyable and rewarding and then we won't have to worry so much about the shirkers and malcontents?
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #130
278. There are some really shitty jobs out there, and they pay good because
they are really shitty jobs...

Not everyone can have a little shop, sell paintings and break for tea from 11:00-1:00...


We had a telecom worker here locally just about die due to the heat while working on top of a 700 foot tower.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #112
137. What do we do with them now? nt
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #112
191. What about the people who f*** up the global economy
and drain $10 trillion of taxpayers' money?

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #106
166. That's uncalled for
People do not have to be rich not to be communists.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #166
180. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt rather than just assuming
low information voter. YMMV.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
109. K&R n/t
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
115. Healthcare IS NOT free. Even in Norway, it's not free. It's paid for with their TAXES.

Please don't talk about free healthcare; conservatives/Republicans get the wrong idea.



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colsohlibgal Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
116. Agree 100%
Yes to everything but we will never get there until a vast percentage of citizens wise up and quit being manipulated.
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center rising Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
122. Couldn't disagree more.
Raising the minimum wage to $20 an hour would kill more jobs in this country, not save them. Healthcare FREE??? On what planet??? Ridiculous!!!
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
123. enthusiastic kr


sing it, brother


:toast:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
124. Hi leftstreet. That all sounds appealing, but you haven't addressed the other side of the coin.
How would we pay for all that? Taxes, I presume. Please describe your Utopian tax code.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #124
185. Right. Only Wall Street and the DOD are allowed 'utopia'
The rest of us peasants must only dream
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #185
187. I don't understand your reaction at all
Please answer my question, and explain yourself.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #187
190. Try to follow me
You suggested it was 'Utopian' for Labor to expect benefits from its tax dollars

I wondered why it's not considered 'Utopian' for Wall Street and the Dept of Defense to enjoy all these benefits when they don't actually generate them to begin with.

:shrug:
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #190
196. The DOD employs ~ 2 million people, including 700,000 civilians. They all pay taxes.
Ergo, the DOD generates tax revenue. Similarly the thousands of employees of "Wall Street" generate tax revenue.

You (and I) may have issues with the 'benefits' enjoyed by these two entities, but it's not like they do not contribute any of the tax dollars they consume.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #196
220. Wasn't referring to the laboring classes, just the predator class
Indeed military and banking labor DO pay taxes - I mean how else would a Wall Street CEO or a Military Inc Contractor buy his/her yacht, without ALL labor daily kicking up the vig?
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #220
254. Wow
Bet you can't wait until 1917....
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #190
197. I see, you are hung up on your inappropriate negative reaction to my choice of a word
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 01:13 PM by slackmaster
I can see this conversation is not likely to go anywhere.

ETA the fact that you are not willing or able to articulate crucial details of your ideal social contract supports my use of the adjective Utopian to describe it.

;-)
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #197
216. Accusing working class people of 'Utopian' ideals when they want their fair share?
My reaction isn't negative - your choice of the word was intentionally negative

But then you know that

:-)
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #216
221. Justifiably negative IMO, and I stand by my choice of words
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 02:41 PM by slackmaster
You've presented only half of a plan - the part that describes what people would take from the system.

You've left out the part about who would do the giving.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #221
225. The working class IS the system. There is no 'other half.' n/t
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #225
236. So everybody receives a bounty of benefits, and nobody pays into it.
Got it.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #236
253. My sincere apologies if English is not your first language
:shrug:

Currently in the US the working classes are the people who 'pay into' the system. I was merely suggesting these same people should be the ones to receive the 'bounty of benefits' that are currently being siphoned off by a small group of rich pricks.

I hope that helps
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #253
268. Clear writing is not your strong subject
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 09:14 PM by slackmaster
I asked you to give a description of the income (i.e. revenue) side of your Utopian society. You have failed.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #187
263. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #124
262. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #262
280. Wat?
All I asked is how all the social benefits would be paid for.

Is there something inherently wrong with that?

:shrug:
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Luciferous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
128. K&R
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dash_bannon Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
132. Don't forget vacations!
In European countries, they have mandatory vacation time. France gives their workers 5 weeks of paid vacation time! Most Americans today feel guilty if they take an hour lunch.

We're doing something wrong here.
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Johnny2X2X Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
133. I actually like working
50-60 hours a week. It's what makes me happy. I get decent vacation, but have too much responsibility to use it so I take a few 4 day weekends a year, but am working the rest of the time.

But, I think people here are right, the parasites in this Country aren't on the bottom, they are on the top. The ultra rich contribute little to society, they simply shuffle around money and live off the backs of others labor. Basic economics tells us that they don't create jobs, they middle class creates all the jobs in this country.

I think the $250 threshold is kind of a red herring and is chosen as a talking point by the Right, and the left just goes along with it. These people are well off, but they also likely contribute a lot to society and are not the ultra rich. The next time the tax cuts come up, Obama would be shrewd to shift the talk to those making over $500k a year and explicitly exempt small businesses. There is no argument that they are not rich and the Republicans will fight just as hard for those making over $500k a year for that is all they are really fighting for now. It changes the framework for a debate about class and could still really help out deficit to raise taxes on this group of people.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
135. In reality, no doubt about it.
The MSM has been feeding our citizens 24/7 propaganda. This corporate propaganda is aimed at undermining our value as people and subtilely extolling the virtues of 3rd world citizens who are happy to work for slave wages and showing how much the corporate elite have helped their "slaves" lives.

Sadly, these ignorant, tea partiers agree, even though most of them are poor and very uneducated. However, they do believe that if they work hard enough, they too can be a Koch....

Reinstating the Fairness Doctrine would really help Americans learn the truth. That is why it will not happen in the foreseeable future. Our Democratic President is even considering eliminating any trace of it's existence.

What is wrong with this picture? CICO= corporate in, corporate out...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
139. And momentum was going that way at one point --
RW political violence came out into the open and took not only our president but

our governmen from us --


Everyone is LABOR. If we would all unite in that principle and refuse to "earn"

money for corporations until this was all broken up, we might be able to get where

we want to be.


And, that would include finally acknowledging and beginning to try to respond to

Global Warming which is the most important issue we face.



:)

Great post!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
145. Agree -- also note that production is up 35% over last decades ... salaries down ...
Was listening to Thom Hartmann a few weeks ago and he was saying that given that

increase in production -- salaries should have been $500 a week higher!


While salaries have been stagnating -- with many not even having cost of living increases --

government workers did once have that protection -- and their salaries are 40% higher than

private sector!!


Sadly -- there is a lot left to give up --


These people are fascists -- they're not only after our Social Security and Medicare --

They want it all -- slave labor -- total domination.






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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
152. K&R I'm not an economist but this is much more effective than
anything I've heard in these blathering about the not perfect compromise to our debt ceiling.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
154. Sounds good to me!..n/t
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blkmusclmachine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
164. +1
K&R
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
176. 3 more years to retirement - that would be great
But I don't think I would be ready even if that were the case.

I am pissed that the goal post keeps moving and they keep trying to stop me from getting close to affording it.

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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
178. If you run for President, I'll vote for you.
I think a lot of people would. Then we would just have to get voted in a majority congress who agrees with you.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
179. K&R.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
181. Would only work if it was worldwide, adjusted for cost of living. -nt
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #181
186. Exactly -- scrolled to the end, looking for that global perespective
It comes down to the 1.) Rock and 2.) the Hard Place:

There are just too many hundreds of millions of intelligent, industrious, reasonably well-educated
(at least compared to average Americans) Chinese, Koreans, east Europeans, Indonesians, Singapore-ans,

and Bang-a-Lorans

...and what have you -- living in oligarchic, authoritarian, top ---> down economic systems -- to whom
it is too easy to assign profitable work.


2.) The biggest U.S. employers are only too well aware of that. By and large, that piece of the American
economic pie -- the Mega Corporations -- are the only ones making enough money to even THINK about doing
any of that.

But they won't, because they're profitable for exactly the opposite reasons.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
182. Slavery made this nation what it is today
Time off would cause economic instability. Especially the 4-day week, people would then be able to look for and interview for other jobs on that day.

Quality and productivity would go down with people switching jobs more often. A lot more people would be new at their jobs, and retraining would also require more resources overall.

It's better for the economy to give people no options.
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
183. You have the right idea
There needs to be more government and not less. The biggest reason I trust government more than corporations: we can vote for who we put in government. If government is weak, corporations influence who they want in government, and it's not a country of the people anymore. Regulations give us clean water and air, safe food, etc.

I'd pay for everything with steep cuts to the defense budget, ending the wars, closing tax loopholes, and raising the top tax rate to at least 50% and maybe more on multi-millions.

Some things we should get at minimum:

- All necessary health care should be paid for through our taxes
- 4 day work week
- At least a month of vacation time each year
- Government-paid shelter, food, clothing for the needy (in addition to food stamps we already have)
- Minimum wage should be livable
- Retirement at 60
- One big thing for me: no one should be able to take your home
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #183
199. Agree with you except for the "more government and not less"
I don't think it's about "more" or less" but instead about the structure.

In many ways we have more government right now though it's not characterized as such.

We've seen huge growth in so-called "security" areas that are government funded.
A small example of this is the Border Patrol, which has received so much funding (while other agencies have had funding cut) that they are now performing work far outside the scope of their mission in order to justify all the money they receive.

http://www.seattleweekly.com/2011-07-27/news/nowhere-ne... /

http://www.seattleweekly.com/2011-08-03/news/bored-at-t... /

There's even a whistle blower who was harassed after he divulged that he had refused unearned overtime pay:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/border-...


Border Patrol whistleblower pays price for refusing unearned overtime pay

By Joe Davidson, Published: July 28

During a period when some in Congress and their related policy wonks think federal employees are overpaid, here comes Christian Sanchez, a Border Patrol agent who says he was punished for refusing overtime pay.

His bosses suggested that he get psychological help.

Instead, Sanchez has become a whistleblower, and on Friday he plans to tell gathering on Capitol Hill that he was retaliated against because he would not take overtime for doing no work.

~~~

The worst fraud on taxpayers is that we are getting paid overtime not to work, Sanchez said in a prepared statement. When he first started working at the station, I noticed it was common practice for everyone to get paid overtime not to work. Back then there were about twenty-four agents and our entire station was receiving at least two hours of Administratively Uncontrolled Overtime. Now, he said, there are more than 40 agents there.





I'd love to see an accounting of the increased funding that has gone to all these 'security" entities as a category, some newly created such as Dept of Homeland Security and some like the Border Patrol that have been operating beyond their mission to justify the increased budget. It would also need to include areas such as wire tapping (how much to pay for the rooms created for server traffic, such as at AT&T and the salaries for those monitoring all that) and the bureaucracies put in place in the last decade.



How much better that funding would be spent on social needs and investment in areas such as infrastructure (especially updating the grid and investing in sustainable energy technology. Instead, we've had amounts that are hard to even identify or track diverted for years now.
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #199
232. Well, I meant in areas where it's needed
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 04:13 PM by mvd
I didn't mean more government in things like choice or overdoing it with immigration controls. I just used a general "more government" to counter-act the broad brush of the conservatives. I see what you are saying.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #232
239. I see what you are saying as well
and very much agree with you.

I just want to start addressing the whole more government/less government club that gets used as shorthand more.

Because it's not really about whether it's less or more, it's about how it's directed and structured.

Areas that are for public benefit seem to always be termed "more government" while those that funnel large amounts of money to fewer pockets are termed as "less government."


At at a time when austerity for most while bailouts for some are being characterized as a so-called needed restructuring, it's important to challenge the premise that government programs that benefit the majority are somehow more government while those that benefit the already wealthy minority are somehow less government.


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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #239
242. 100% agree
What terminology would you use to frame the discussion? Message is important.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #242
274. I'm better at researching, putting things together and contextualizing
than at titles.


Let's both think on that and see what gels.

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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #183
283. So how do you create more rich people to tax?
if your tax base is an inverted pyramid, you have just placed the fate of everyone in the hands of a small group of people. If they can't pay taxes anymore because the value of assets has declined or because their incomes have been capped, where is the money going to come from?

And it is not a zero sum game - as the population increases(and ages) you will need more money. Where is that money coming from? Governments don't create wealth - individuals and companies do. What policies will you implement to insure there is a steady stream of new rich people to tax?
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
194. I'll vote for all that!
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daggahead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
201. Not in the U.S Fucking A ...
Sadly ... it would be great to have some extra time and money to enjoy life, instead of what we have now.
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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
202. A $20 minimum wage is ridiculous
I support a living wage but I don't think you understand how small profits are in the retail sector. Kroger, one of the largest grocery chains in the US, made a 1.38% net profit in the trailing 12 months. In order to almost double/triple wages they would also have to raise prices a corresponding amount.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #202
214. Chase CEO Jamie Dimon made $10k +change PER HOUR last year
Does this mean Chase Inc wasn't profitable?
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cstanleytech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #214
244. The poster was talking kroger though not Chase
and the kroger ceo it seems took a pay cut due to performance issues with the company http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2011/05/kr...


On another note I am a bit depressed atm because if my math is right it would take me +250 years to make what he does in one year *sigh*
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
204. Now that's an idea I could get behind.
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russspeakeasy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
205. Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose !!
:toast:
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
206. Gloom. Doom. Despair. My kingdom for a pony.
Fiddlesticks.
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seeker4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
209. + Infinity - Remember pushing Left = TRAITOR!
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pam4water Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
215. Not surea bout retirement at 55 but minimum wage should sure be $20 and hour.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
218. Kicked and Recommended
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Eyerish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
231. K&R
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kctim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
233. Why should I have to work at all?
Just give me my $640 dollars a week.
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #233
234. Another thing I support is a large government jobs program
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 04:16 PM by mvd
That would certainly help with unemployment. I do think the social safety net should be strong enough to not forget those who aren't working.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #234
237. With you on that, as long as it's not TSA type jobs.
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NeoGreen Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
240. 55 20 4...
...I see a future bumper sticker
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cstanleytech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
243. Is this opinion/rant or is it a fact/rant?
Just curious is all.
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #243
256. Just rant.
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True Earthling Donating Member (373 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
246. Wow - talk about the entitlement mentality.

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abelenkpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
250. Didn't they do something like that in Germany?
I think full time work week was 30 hours?

Personally I think that'd be great. Better for families, businesses could have two shifts that overlap one day, more people would be employed.

Why aren't we doing this?

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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
252. Agreed.
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
255. "It's all BULLSHIT" alright.
20 pounds of tripe in a 10 lb bag.

Which, coincidentally, is what most people will end up eating 5 days a week, if the other workers' paradises past and present are any indication.
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
259. BTW, added my K&R
:thumbsup:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
264. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
266. As someone who did retire at 55.....it's a swell idea.
Working is a highly overrated pastime compared to freedom.

Capitalism has promoted the idiotic idea that "working" is somehow a moral obligation and that the harder you work the better person you are. Of course, they never get around to explaining why that is so except "There'll be pie in the sky when you die" terms.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
282. Then you should retire at 55 and pay you workers at least $20/hr & only ask them to work 4 days/week
I'm sure that you can get plenty of employees by offering that.
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RegieRocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-11 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
285. Go on....so far I agree with you.
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