The no-kids-allowed movement is spreading

[Pryderi]

http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/the-no-kids-allowed-movement-is-spreading-2516110

Lately, complaints about screaming kids are being taken seriously, not only by airlines, but by hotels, movie theaters, restaurants, and even grocery stores.

Earlier this month, McDain's, a Pittsburgh area restaurant that banned kids under 6 became a mascot for the no-kids-zone movement.

According to a Pittsburgh local news poll, more than half of area residents were in favor of the ban. And now big business is paying attention.

"Brat bans could well be the next frontier in destination and leisure-product marketing," writes Robert Klara in an article on the child-free trend in AdWeek.


http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/restaurant-bans-kids-under-6-discrimination-or-smart-move-2509487

Restaurant bans kids under 6. Discrimination or smart move?


At a PA restaurant it's no shirt, no shoes, no kids, no dice. (ThinkStock Photos)
At McDain's Restaurant, in Monroeville, Pennsylvania, kids don't eat free. And starting next week, they don't get to eat at all. Mike Vuick, owner of the Pittsburgh area eatery has just announced a ban on children under 6 at his casual dining establishment.

After receiving noise complaints from customers about crying kids at neighboring tables, Vuick decided to institute the policy, which will go into effect July 16.

In an email to customers, Vuick explained: "We feel that McDain's is not a place for young children. Their volume can't be controlled and many, many times, they have disturbed other customers."

The owner of the "upscale, casual and quiet" restaurant explains to WTAE Local News, he's got nothing against kids in general, but their endless screams at public dinner tables are "the height of being impolite and selfish."

-----------------

[TNLib]

1. I don't like this. I get annoyed by screaming kids but on some level this

is similar to bigotry. Not all children behave poorly in public.

[Pryderi]

3. I don't believe chidren under 6 should be treated like adults. n/t

[roguevalley]

62. I taught forever and when a kid starts out wild at six consider them

at 16. I am for this. Either get your kids in control or get out. No one would allow adults or pets acting this way in public places. Why would we disrespect kids so much that we don't take care of them so they can act the right way? Kids can do better. the parents need to be responsible or this is the consequence. The lack of consequences creates these kind of kids. Kids actually want to know where the lines are. They do this to find them. Parents are buffoons. Get it together, parents. Your kids aren't cute when they do this. not one bit.

[joeglow3]

316. Yeah, that one black person broke into may car

We should implement a law keeping ALL black people out of my neighborhood until they learn how to act properly in public places.

You can rationalize it however you want, but it is bigotry, plain and simple.

[roguevalley]

388. oh please. truly.

[joeglow3]

410. Wow. You got me. How can I argue with that logic?

As stated below, last week, my wife, myself and my 3 boys (2, 5 & 8) went out to eat. We were seated to 2 tables, each with 4 african americans. They were the loudest, rudest people I have sat next to in a long time (my children were 10 times more well behaved). Using your logic, all black people should be excluded from that restaurant.

I agree that people should be dealt with on a case by case basis, but to argue for discrimination against an entire group is disgusting. Just because it benefits you does not make it right (although I bet the same justifications were used by white people in the 1960's).

[demosincebirth]

6. If parents can't control their kids in public, why should others have to suffer.?

[seabeyond]

22. what about the zillion of kids you dont even notice because they do behave? nt

[demosincebirth]

33. I've seen very few of those in restaurants and airplanes.

[seabeyond]

34. really? and i see very few out of control kids. but then i dont think the whole world should

protect me from all of life

btw... that is the point. you dont notice the kids that are behaving. you are obtuse to them.

[demosincebirth]

53. One bratty kid can ruin any meal. It doesn't have to be two or three.

[seabeyond]

61. one drunk, obnoxious, smelly adult can too. hey... lets ban ALL adults. there's

thinking it thru.

sorry your world needs to be so very fuckin controlled.

[demosincebirth]

69. Settle down! If you can't accept an opposing viewpoint stay out of these discussions

[seabeyond]

71. settle down? you really are into having your world exactly how you insist.

sounds like you ought to not only stay out fo the conversation, if you cant handle it, but not go out. a controlled environment that you can have everything exactly as you want it.

settle down? wow

[demosincebirth]

83. You're right. eom

[notadmblnd]

384. +1

[joeglow3]

319. We were in a restaurant last week in Branson, Missouri

There was a table of 8 black people and they were the loudest, most dissruptive group I have sat next to in a LOOOONG time. My 3 children behaved 10 times better than these adults. Using your awesome logic, we should outlaw all blacks from restaurants until they learn how to behave.

Bigotry is bigotry. As much as you may be able to convince yourself otherwise, it cannot be rationalized.

[geardaddy]

346. Your first mistake was to go to Branson, MO

But I agree with your analysis.

[xmas74]

368. It was a restaurant in Branson.

I'd expect nothing but rude, loud, nasty behavior from all the tourists.

[October]

336. Irony award

Really?

[lbrtbell]

72. Don't blame the victims

When someone pays for a pleasant dining experience, that doesn't involve a loud, obnoxious child. If you have eardrums made of stone, congratulations. For the rest of us, high-pitched sounds at that level can literally make us nauseated.

I think banning all kids is extreme. But if more establishments kicked people out when their kids acted up, that would accomplish three important things: 1) Preserve the right of other patrons to have a pleasant experience, 2) Teach the parents that there's a problem with their child that needs to be addressed, and 3) Teach the kids that they won't be accepted in society if they act like brats.

I was a preschooler once, and I knew I'd get in MAJOR trouble if I created a scene in public. Other children know it, too, unless they have some sort of severe emotional or mental disability...in which case, if the experience is too much for them to handle, it's cruel to force it on them.

[seabeyond]

74. you dont believe an all out ban is right. me either. you think parents that dont control kids

should be kicked out. i am with you

we had to behave and appreciated going out SO much the few times, we behaved. my kids LOVE going out we do it so seldom, they behave. my nieces and nephews behave. the kids i have taken behave. i would allow nothing less.

so

where is the beef?

[lbrtbell]

81. The only problem? Many people aren't like us

They don't see why they should have to raise well-behaved children. They're too lazy to intervene, or they're the types who can't say no. Either way, the kids suffer (from being regarded as unwanted brats).

It's amazing how some parents are absolutely tone-deaf when a kid is shrieking, a foot away from them. I've had my ears hurt by such kids...how (and why?) do these people put up with it?

[seabeyond]

88. not thrilled with it either. not thrilled with a bunch of adults labeling all kids as brats either.

especially as i have children that work really really hard to use their manners, and be well behaved. take pride in it. and adults all the time are walking all over them, running into them, not watching where they are going. cutting in line.

yet all kids are brats.

the kids in my world have parents that parent. and kids that behave.

i am not in a world of out of control kids. even when i am out and about. it is the unusual. not the usual.

and i think the mentality of those on this thread is truly pathetic. i am glad we dont have this in our rl. i got sucked into another anti kid thread. i swore i would stay out.

[BobbyBoring]

315. You're the exception

Not the rule...............

[seabeyond]

318. except in my world, i am the norm. i cannot remember a time a child interupted my dinner

"experience" and i have never seen children at the upscale restaurants i go to so either kids so we behaved i didnt notice or they just arent there.

a created outrage that the unreasonable, nonthinking jump on board.

i am respecting the kids more than the adults.

[roxiejules]

420. I can't remember the last time a child ruined my dinner either

Where do all these people live that children are a non-stop nuisance?

Did I ever have a child kick the back of my booth? Yes, but it didn't last long and it didn't ruin my dinner. I simply turned around and said hello.

[Pryderi]

422. I can't remember the last time a smoker ruined my dinner...oh wait.

[MedicalAdmin]

383. Not all kids are brats

And not all restaurants are required to cater to families with small children. I agree with your view that it shouldn't be a ban but I also think the restaurant should be able to make this distinction if it is appropriate for the type of establishment it is.

I like kids although I cannot have any of my own, but I have little tolerance for parents who abrogate their duty. Thank you for doing yours. I wish more did so consistently.

[seabeyond]

401. thanks... but

i also really really do not believe it is a pat on the parents back doing our job. i also feel the kids get the pat on the back for making the good and right choices. they choose to feel good, being good. just like the get the repercussions for their misbehavior. i am not gonna own it. it is all theirs, lol. hence their decision to do right. they like the pat

but really.... do you really see a lot fo out of control kids? i am going on a trip and that means lots of restaurants and i am going ot really pay attention to how many kids we dont even notice cause they are merely eating and how many out of control. i dont see it.

jsut in grocery store this afternoon, and all was fine, lol

[MedicalAdmin]

412. I'll pay attention to that myself in the coming weeks.

But I have seen increasing amounts of that behavior in the last decade. Of course I live in the same district that elected M. Bachmann so this is not a good statistical universe for responsible behavior.

[Warren DeMontague]

126. The entitled, self-absorbed, non-disciplining lazy yuppie parents.. I know where they hang out!

with the bon-bon eating welfare queens and the 8 month pregnant women who "demand" abortions at the last minute because they "look fat".

:eyes:


Seriously, the "laziest" parents are the ones who scream, terrorize, over-discipline and cow their kids into submission. It's far easier to do that than to find a good balance between limits and freedom.

But there's a very simple solution to this, although it won't give the anti-kid axe grinders as much satisfaction.

It's a simple sign that says "We Reserve The Right To Refuse Service To Anyone".

[AverageJoe90]

208. Good point, Warren. Good point!

And kudos to the parents who DO know how to raise their children in a kind & loving, yet also efficient manner. :-)

[fishwax]

240. good point

"Seriously, the "laziest" parents are the ones who scream, terrorize, over-discipline and cow their kids into submission. It's far easier to do that than to find a good balance between limits and freedom."

:thumbsup:

[we can do it]

306. I Think Parents Should Pay a $1000 Brat Deposit, Kids Behave They Get It Back

if they don't, its split up between those whose dinners have been ruined and they are escorted out.

[October]

339. While we're at it, why not levy a fine on DUers who use poor grammar and ruin my reading experience?

/eom

[xmas74]

369. I hope that's sarcasm.

I really do.

[CakeGrrl]

411. Considering the amount, I dare say that it is.

;-)

[xmas74]

418. I would hope so.

Then again, I've been in fights over children on DU in the past. Some of the things said were not and were just as ridiculous.

[MH1]

117. there's a 4th thing - create business for the 'kids ok' restaurants.

I think it's a good thing to allow some restaurants to set a policy like this. If there's no where parents can take their kids, that's a problem. But as long as ALL restaurants don't do it, I think it's fine.

If the percentage got excessive maybe there could be some kind of zoning permit thing to enforce a good mix.

[Luminous Animal]

189. You make a good point in there. States and cities should require a license to ban children...

post the requisite 30 days notice that allows for public input and grant child-banning licenses based on density of other child-banning restaurants in the area.

[Obamanaut]

271. McDonalds with a playground. Kids are welcome there. nt

[xmas74]

370. And the food is bad for them.

So, is healthy food only allowed for childless adults? No way is McDonalds good for a child.

[Scout]

378. oh the horror! oh the humanity! oh the hyperbole!

"So, is healthy food only allowed for childless adults"

sure, that's exactly what this is all about


pathetically laughable post
:rofl:

[MedicalAdmin]

385. McD's is crap.

That is true. I would never let a kid eat there. Honestly I wouldn't. I just don't want to put up with the behavioral issues that too many kids get from such toxic soup.

But that is just me and I don't have kids so all you junk food freedom lovers can relax about me "forcing my nazi ways" on kids. Series!!!!

[BobbyBoring]

317. They've existed for years

They're called Family Restaurants!

[tblue37]

245. Exactly. My mother could take all six of us kids out in public without

worrying that we would cause trouble. We were all born within an 8-year span, so that was a lot of very young kids for her to handle at once. But we never created a scene when she took us places.

[seabeyond]

247. that is the point. so many of us were able to go out young, and we behaved. so many of us have

children that go out and behave. that is the insult of the thread and these "brat bans" labeling all children as brats.

you could do it.
i could do it
my kids can do it
all my nieces and nephews are quite capable.

[October]

343. My brother and I always behaved, too - as do my children.

It's unfortunate when all children are labeled as "brats."

We expect so much from kids, though. They should take care of their bathroom needs, yet the seat/urinal is adult-sized. They should wash their hands, yet the sink is out of reach. And on and on it goes.

As always, balance is key.

This isn't new, though. YMCA facilities and other swimming pools have always had "adult swim" times. Creativity is key, here. If the restaurant wants "adults only," maybe they could implement a "kids night."

[seabeyond]

344. i dont care if a restaurant bans kids, they wont get my money. brat ban, though,

to call it brat ban is indicative of our society adn says a hell of a lot more about us, than our kids.

[October]

413. It does. And many here are cheering it.

So many haters -- left and right. Center, too, I guess.

[joeglow3]

320. So, do we create separate but equal restaurants for parents with special needs kids?

You seem to think it is cruel for special needs kids to be out in public because they "can't handle it." That is one of the most disgusting, insensitive, dickheaded things I have read in a long time.

[last_texas_dem]

95. +1,000.

I seriously don't understand all of these people who are so profoundly perturbed by kids being allowed to exist in public places. Loudmouthed and/or obnoxious and/or drunken and/or rude adults outnumber the annoying children *by far*.

Makes me think a lot of adults have a good deal of "growing up" to do themselves if the mere presence of children bothers them so much.

(And, FWIW, I have no children and have no plans to have any.)

[seabeyond]

96. right on. and thank you.

i didnt know there was such anti children until du. i was 32 before having kids. didnt have issues with them before, didnt have issues with them after.

odd world to live in....

[shellgame26]

219. agree

This is the same kind of mindset of people who get angry at screaming babies. Children are going to be..well...children.

[alarimer]

243. Well they should be children someplace other than an fancy restaurant.

Not sure which restaurants are banning children but children definitely do not belong in the fancier, nicer, more expensive places where people go for a nice meal on special occasions.

Seriously get a fucking babysitter. I don't want to hear your screaming kids at the movies.

[MedicalAdmin]

386. I don't get mad at crying babies and I don't think most here do.

The parents on the other hand...


Crying babies, like good intentions, should be carried out immediately.

[Pacifist Patriot]

404. Give me a cranky bouncy kid over an obnoxious drunk adult any time!

[TheMadMonk]

154. Oblivious is the word you are looking for. And the problem may well...

...be only a handful of kids, but those kids (and their parents)make up for all the others in spades.

Thus it is far easier to have a blanket ban on kids than repeatedly hold the same conversation with the SORT OF PARENT which PRODUCES kids who behave badly in public. The sort who turn reasonable complaints into personal attacks and rapidly devolve towards becoming a far greater disturbance than their kids.

And THAT my friend is a major part of the problem: The tendency for a person today, to belligerently go on the offensive when placed in a situation of "deserved" public embarrassment by a child, spouse, invited companion, etc.

Easier (AND safer) to block all at the entry, rather than to attempt to selectively eject a single child when an inevitable incident occurs.

[seabeyond]

177. easier to label all kids as brats. easier to blanket ban. you mention to troublesome adults.

do we blanket ban all adults for the few that misbehave?

[MedicalAdmin]

387. In a way it is a ban on adult.

But the identifying characteristic of some of those adults is little kids in tow. But I get your point and agree that a ban is not the way to go.

[Pooka Fey]

310. + 1000

[reggie the dog]

42. my kid didnt pissmoan or cry between nice and chicago

passing through london with a three hour lay over> she is only 3

[demosincebirth]

57. You must have a well behaved child. Congratulations. Your child is one of the exceptions.

[ThomThom]

282. I see and hear them every day

parents are not taking responsibility

[LanternWaste]

292. We often fail to see the norm when we focus on the aberrations...

We often fail to see the norm when we focus on the aberrations...

[MedicalAdmin]

389. Good point.

Most kids are good and want to do good. It's easy to spot the ones with crappy parents and even they want to do well (most of 'em).

[seabeyond]

402. boundaries. kids cry out for boundaries, of all ages. they want them

really, lol.

i feel for the kids that have parents to lazy to set up clear boundaries.

[Pacifist Patriot]

405. LOL! You don't see them precisely because you don't notice them.

They're there. I pay attention and have to say there are far more well-behaved children in this world than brats. Sadly, they and their parents never get any credit. Squeaky wheel syndrome I guess.

[tabasco]

178. They can go to a different restaurant.

PROBLEM SOLVED!

[snagglepuss]

225. +1

[Lucian]

268. + a million billion.

[we can do it]

304. [phone]

[madinmaryland]

8. Bigotry?? WTF??? Age (youth) discrimation is practiced in this country

for just about everything. We don't allow children to drink, vote, drive a motor vehicle and many other things. A restaurant owner is should be able to determine who he shall and shall not serve based on the lack of age of the patron.

If you don't like the policy, then patronize another establishment.

:shrug:

[Drale]

17. There are reasons for those bans,

this is no different then say we don't want black people in our places, your not only banning children but your banning people who have children.

[madinmaryland]

28. FAIL

No where does it say that the restaurant is banning anyone for the color of their skin, or their sexual orientation, or for that matter their actual sex. Comparing this ban to racial or sexual discrimination makes absolutely no sense.

[SlimJimmy]

204. That's an interesting point, but I must mention that I have never

had an adult of any color or sexual orientation kick the back of my seat or shriek while I was trying to have dinner. My children behaved in public, my grand children behave in public, and I will demand no less from others. It's called common courtesy.

[snagglepuss]

228. The hostile reaction to a sensible ban by a private business owner

is way over the top. If everyone with unruly kids behaved graciously and exited resturants there wouldn't be a problem but many people crave confrontations so it's better for everyone to have age restrictions posted.

[joeglow3]

321. Why?

Ageism clearly exists in our country. However, since it benefits YOU it is okay to create "separate but equal" restaurants? I agree that if/when a child is being disruptive, the restaurant should ask them to leave. However, banning everyone because of the action of a few is EXACTLY like racial and sexual discrimination.

[kiva]

50. Leaving aside the complete lack of comprehension regarding

your comparison between racial segregation and this ban, they are not "banning people who have children" they are banning people who refuse to hire a sitter...and before you whine that sitters are too expensive, this isn't a low-price restaurant - if you can afford to go there, you should be able to afford a sitter.

[madinmaryland]

56. Good point for those who are whining about bigotry here. Thanks!

[sarcasmo]

150. +1

[joeglow3]

324. They are banning children - a class of citizens

So, you think this class of citizens how no rights and keeping them out of places is cool? Very progressive of you.

[kiva]

331. Children, IMO, have the right

to safe places to live, to loving parents, to medical care, to food, to education.

They do not have the inalienable right to eat in every restaurant, hang out in bars, or go to R rated movies.

[joeglow3]

332. Why not?

How can your reasoning that they do not have a right to eat in every restaurant not be applied to race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc?

[kiva]

374. Because it is not.

The Supreme Court has weighed in on those other issues and has judged that these groups have Constitutional protection against discrimination (thought they haven't done nearly enough in the case of discrimination regarding sexual orientation).

They have addressed questions about the right of children regarding free speech, the rights of children in foster care, their rights in regard to Miranda, and a plethora of other issues. Restaurants? Not so much.

The court of public opinion? Since the handful of restaurants who have chosen to do this are thriving, it seems as though many disagree with your assessment.

So, what exactly is the basis for your argument?

[joeglow3]

408. So, your basis of what is morally right is the law?

If a state bans gay marriage, it is morally right?

Clearly, our government has identified age (40+ years old) as a protected class. Why is it okay to discriminate against those younger than 40, but not those over 40? And again, I am not asking what the law is, but why you think one is morally correct and one is not? If a restaurant bans black people and before being identified as doing so, thrives, under your logic that would prove it is a good thing.

As a second issue, if I, as a business owner, want to open a business that caters to smokers and thrives, do you support all the laws we see not allowing that? Are non-smokers a protected class? If the business is thriving, does that prove it is correct to allow it?

In short, I am interested in how your formulate your morals as it relates to this (and not what you think the government allows, as we know that is not always right, per your comment on sexual orientation).

[kiva]

414. Morality? Seriously, you consider this a 'moral' question?

It is immoral for a restaurant to ban children? OK, I'm bowing out now because we are never going to be able to discuss this issue within the same reality.

[joeglow3]

416. Awfully convenient

Hell yeah I think bucketing an entire group and not allowing them in certain restaurants because of the behavior of a few is EXACTLY what discrimination is. I can only assume you know it is indefensible, but like it because this type of discrimination benefits you and will "bow out" as you know you cannot defend it.

[lbrtbell]

76. People who have children aren't banned

They just have to leave the kids with a sitter. Nobody is stopping any adults, or even older children (age 7+), from going to that restaurant.

[WolverineDG]

85. Oh please

Yes, we're banning people who refuse to teach their children how to behave in public.

dg

[tblue37]

90. No--the parents could always get a sitter. Some restaurants are

more suitable for kids than others. If you have small kids, take them to a restaurant that is suitable for them.

I had two kids of my own, but I also did home daycare for 18 years and helped raise 34 kids besides my own (usually from early infancy to school age).

I love kids, and I took my crowd of kids of varying ages, ranging from infants on up, to the grocery store to the pet store, to the wading pool, to the park, to parades, to restaurants (suitable ones), to plays, and to all sorts of other venues and activities. Even though I was handling a lot of different kids, from a lot of different parents, I never had behavioral problems with them, because they knew that if they misbehaved, they would not get to go to those fun places again for a long time. I was the authority in my daycare (and with my own kids), and the kids accepted that reality.

Out of all those kids, I only had one 3-year-old that I had trouble keeping under control. He didn't act up or scream--he just didn't cooperate, so when it was time to leave, he would refuse to budge, or when we were headed in one direction, he would decide to head in the other. But I didn't have him all that often--just from time to time when his (single) dad had to go to KC for one thing or another. If I had had him consistently over a period of time, I am quite sure that he would not have given me any trouble either.

Yes, it is true that some kids are more difficult to handle than others, and some have specific conditions that would make them impossible (or nearly so) to control. But in most cases that is not the problem with out of control kids. The problem is that too many parents have not learned to handle their kids.

In the old days, a young mother would have older women around to help her learn to handle her kids effectively and also to help control and train the kids while she was learning. (In the old days, of course, only women were held responsible--today at least both parents are supposed to be involved!) Also, people grew up in families where older kids helped with younger ones. But now most kids are segregated in age ghettoes in daycares and schools, so they don't learn how to interact effectively with--or handle--younger kids. Thus, when they have their own kids, they don't know how to handle them, and usually there are no older people (mothers, grandmothers—even uncles and grandfathers) around to help them.

I don’t believe in yelling at kids or hitting them, but I also don’t believe in letting them act like little brats—especially in public. A badly behaved child eventually ends up lonely and unhappy, because no one enjoys the company of a nasty brat of any age.

Parents are not doing their kids a favor when they let them behave as though their whims and impulses must be accepted and catered to by the whole world. Such kids are disliked by other kids, and when they go to school even the adults won’t like them.

[Mimosa]

185. TBlue, you are right

TBlue said:

"Yes, it is true that some kids are more difficult to handle than others, and some have specific conditions that would make them impossible (or nearly so) to control. But in most cases that is not the problem with out of control kids. The problem is that too many parents have not learned to handle their kids.

In the old days, a young mother would have older women around to help her learn to handle her kids effectively and also to help control and train the kids while she was learning. (In the old days, of course, only women were held responsible--today at least both parents are supposed to be involved!) Also, people grew up in families where older kids helped with younger ones. But now most kids are segregated in age ghettoes in daycares and schools, so they don't learn how to interact effectively with--or handle--younger kids. Thus, when they have their own kids, they don't know how to handle them, and usually there are no older people (mothers, grandmothers—even uncles and grandfathers) around to help them.

I don’t believe in yelling at kids or hitting them, but I also don’t believe in letting them act like little brats—especially in public. A badly behaved child eventually ends up lonely and unhappy, because no one enjoys the company of a nasty brat of any age."

Amen. however, my grandfather and stepfather also coached us on table manners and restaurant appropriate behaviour. They did it with praise and rewards. My grandad used to make my sister and I feel special by ordering us 'Shirley temples' when he ordered his drink. We took our cues from grownups. The world wasn't 'all about us'. Playing outside with kids was when we got to cut loose! :D

[TNLib]

29. In my opinion

Bigotry is one someone is intolerant of an entire group of people or segment of society. Banning all children is being intolerant towards all children. Not all children are unruly so yes this is bigotry IMHO.

[madinmaryland]

46. Fail: Bigotry is defined as being hostile to...

race, ethnicity, religion or spirituality, nationality, inter-regional prejudice, gender and sexual orientation, homelessness, various medical disorders particularly behavioral disorders and addictive disorders.

Banning children from a restaurant is "intolerant towards children". I see it as protecting children. Of course, by your logic, strip joints are bigoted towards children since they ban children also.

:mimshakeshishead:

[TNLib]

144. You forgot one Ageism

and it happens all the time in the work replace where individuals are discriminated against because of age.

[madinmaryland]

187. FAIL - Ageism has NEVER been defined as not being able to eat at a restaurant.

Workplace yes. Chuck-E-Cheese NO.

[lbrtbell]

84. But all children aren't being banned

Just very young ones. Honestly, why would you bring a preschooler to an upscale restaurant, anyway? That's what family restaurants are for.

[Taverner]

15. Not bigotry any more than Chuck E Cheese's policy

Which is, you must have a kid or no entry

It keeps the pedophiles out and it's good policy

For very different reasons, some restaurants should be able to exclude kids

[seabeyond]

20. i so seldom run into an issue of any kid interferring with my time out. a bunch of narcissistic

adults teaching kids how to be exactly that.

i like the poster that says .... more people unable to handle real life.

[snagglepuss]

230. The narcissists are parents who refuse to discipline their kids and go

ballistic if anyone else tries the shush them.

[seabeyond]

244. ya, they are bad. and the majority of kids behave. the majority of parents have taught the kids

well

which bring us back to this thread and the number of adults that refuse to recognize it is a every once in a while their out and about time is interupted by one of these kids and instead decide brat banning all kids is the answer

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. And some over six do behave poorly as well

It is bigotry.

[lbrtbell]

94. IMHO, any kid any age misbehaving should leave

I disagree with the ban, but understand the problem that prompted it. I think people with misbehaving kids should get one warning, and if the bratty behavior persists, the whole group needs to be kicked out.

An outright ban only solves part of the problem, making things quieter for other patrons. Kicking people out gives the embarrassment factor needed to spur parents to realize that this behavior isn't allowed in public. Boot these people out of enough places, they'll have to do their job as parents, for a change.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. I fully agree, and I think so would my husband

and I wil leave it at that...

[kiranon]

192. So people with special needs kids should never be allowed in

restaurants? How about autistic children and autistic adults? Developmentally delayed children/adults. Not everyone of any age will always act in a way Ms. Manners would approve of at all times. We all goof up sometimes. I've had more trouble with drunks than I've ever had with children.

[seabeyond]

195. fuck them... why should we be tolerant. they might make us uncomfortable

of course :sarcasm:

that is a very good point. very good point to the point of being disgusting once this whole thing and the anomosity towards children is thought out.

[snagglepuss]

233. Forcing confrontations is not going to enhance anyone's dining experience.

Parents who have unruly kids are often no better themselves, they often relish confrontations.

[seabeyond]

246. and the drunk or the rude or the angry adult customer? is any easier to deal with

it is life. living in a world together. cannot be cushioned from all negative experiences we might have to deal with

[geardaddy]

352. I agree with you lbrtbell

But for this part: "Kicking people out gives the embarrassment factor needed to spur parents to realize that this behavior isn't allowed in public. Boot these people out of enough places, they'll have to do their job as parents, for a change."

The parents that ignore their kids' behavior don't get embarrassed. They think it's the restaurant and the other people with the problem.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

160. If parents would realize "Today isn't my day"....

....and leave an establishment once they realize their kids cannot control themselves, there would be no problem. The problem is it's harder to throw someone out than to just tell them they can't come in.

[tosh]

365. There are "Family Restaurants", chain restaurants

and plenty of places where I have no qualms with kids.

There are, however, a few places that should be reserved for adults. Period.

[LooseWilly]

398. Minors are not a "protected class", therefore it is legal to discriminate against them all you want.

In fact it's done every day... requiring parents to sign for them to go on field trips, participate in certain lessons... requiring them to go to school and barring them from working... not to mention prohibiting them from buying cigarettes or pornography.

Now they can't even scream between courses while eating out?

I swear, this country's becoming like a kiddie concentration camp...

[madinmaryland]

2. Not a problem with me. Though I am getting out the popcorn for what should

be an interesting thread!!

:popcorn:

[my2sense]

4. K & R

:popcorn: and drinks on me.

[rucky]

5. More evidence of our inability to cope with the real world.

At least I'll know which restaurants to not visit.

[Pryderi]

7. When my parents went out to certain restaurants, they hired a babysitter and left me

and my siblings at home. That is the real world.

[tsuki]

31. Mom took care of son. Dining out was a treat back then for special occasions. nt

[smirkymonkey]

347. Same here - and if we did go out with our parents we behaved

ourselves if we knew what was good for us. Our parents taught us manners and how to behave at the dinner table. To ask to be excused if we needed to leave the table for any reason and to be neat and polite. We were always complemented on our excellent behavior at the table.

Today, many parents just don't take the time - I don't know if it's because they don't sit down for formal meals, which is a teaching experience or if they just don't care. Personally, If I am seated near bratty kids, I usually move. Many times the parents get nasty looks from the patrons and act insulted and self-righteous. All kids act up from time to time, especially the young ones. Just take them outside and walk them until they calm down. Your kid, your responsibility.

[seabeyond]

16. exactly. though i have no young children, and when they were young, better behaved than a lot

of adults....

in our house (and i will sprend the word around) we see a sign reducing kids to brats and barring them, we will not give them our money

[tabasco]

181. There's plenty others!

Ain't choices great?!

[rpannier]

241. Agree

People need to get out and associate with the rest of the world.
More use of public transportation would help.
I live in Korea and got used to the homeless guy on the subway, the beggar and the guy who hears voices as well as the crying babies.
I have never heard of a church in Korea that got complaints about crying children.

[rucky]

281. Stay dry & safe.

[LeftofObama]

9. I have no children, and most likely never will, but it seems to me

the parents are more to blame than the kids. "Look at little Johnny, isn't it cute when he screams because we make him eat his peas!" I say hold the parents accountable. Kids are just being kids.

[Pryderi]

11. deleted message

[Taverner]

13. Some places are kid friendly and other's aren't

I think people should have a refuge from kids...

[blueamy66]

19. I agree that the parents should be held accountable....

but that isn't gonna make a kid behave in a restaurant.

I take my nieces, nephew, great nieces and great nephews out to lunch at least once a month. Sometimes I just want to apologize to the other patrons.

We try to go to "kid friendly" places, but their fave is Red Lobster.....

If my brother or I misbehaved in a restaurant, we would have been taken outside and whacked. It worked.

[Taverner]

10. To be honest, this has been a long time coming

And for the record, I'm a parent of two kids, one under 6

Yes, kids can ruin a dining experience for everyone - and when my kids went nuts I would usually take them out of the place right away

But not all parents do this

Also - there should be places that act as a refuge from kids

[demosincebirth]

37. Good for you! Many parents should follow you example.

[killbotfactory]

43. I have one kid, and agree with you

When my kid starts acting up in a restaurant (usually from being tired or something) we leave as soon as we can. It sucks when we so rarely get to go out, but a lot of things about parenthood sucks. Other patrons don't deserve to be subjected to a screaming child while they try to eat. I know it ruins my meal, and I'm sort of used to it.

I wouldn't even think of taking her to a fancy restaurant to begin with. It's just not appropriate.

[GodlessBiker]

12. Hell. I've been to places where you had to be 25 to get in. 6 years-old? That's nothin'.

[slackmaster]

323. You've been to the House of Representatives?

;-)

[seabeyond]

14. adults... can not see 30 well behaved kids adn one loud mouth child reduces all to brats

tells me how adult these adults are.

glad my kids are beyond this garbage and sad about the narcissistic adult world tht our children face today.

but the joke will be on all of us really smart, bright, perceptive adults as we teach our kids how to be even more narcissistic than we are

[pepperbear]

18. this movement will also spark a need for kid friendly places. This will come down to $.

[Pryderi]

21. There are a ton of "kid friendly" places. Most fast food places, Chuck E. Cheese, Disney etc.

[pepperbear]

24. right. there will be more. n/t

[Pryderi]

27. Fine with me. I don't want to go to a restaurant full of screaming kids. n/t.

[seabeyond]

26. not all parents chose junk for their kids. when we take a trip we dont feed kids junk the WHOLE

trip. we actually choose to give them nutrious foods.

[Pryderi]

30. Many fast food restaurants now have healthy choices. n/t

[seabeyond]

32. i bet you would be the first on your high horse bandwagon criticizing parents feeding kids crap at

fast food places.

hey kids... you are so a part of our world, stay in the fast food joints. what a selfish, self centered attitude and the hypocrisy of criticizing a whole group of kids....

[Pryderi]

38. Who's the selfish? You're wanting to ruin my meal with your bratty kids. n/t

[seabeyond]

40. you post says it all. nt

[Pryderi]

44. As did your previous one. I can make assumptions as poorly as you can. n/t

[StarsInHerHair]

92. shrieking kids make me lose my appetite & I'm not the only one

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100328115324AAKudca

"Also, I recently read a study that if young women have infants and live with others who criticize the infant's natural crying, the mother becomes very anxious and nervous to keep the infant quiet (instead of telling the complainer to go to hell).
So, the answer is no. If you can't stand to hear crying babies and you are a woman its because you're hard-wired to respond in some way."

[MattBaggins]

120. I can't stand people who reek of BO when i'm trying to eat

I think that establishments have the right to kick them out. I believe they also have the right to simply ban all members of ethnic groups known not to have the same level of hygiene as the rest of us.

[StarsInHerHair]

124. but are you a restaraunt owner?

[MattBaggins]

128. Price of Legumes in Far East Asia?

[StarsInHerHair]

133. see this Super Nanny short video before we go on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcAXP1dtIsY

[MattBaggins]

139. I'm well aware of her show

Watched it all the time. Supernanny kids are not all kids.

Some of group X annoyed me... let's ban all of group X.

[StarsInHerHair]

141. so you're saying kids should be allowed in bars & strip clubs

that's "unbanning all of group x"

[MattBaggins]

146. Those bans are for the protection of the child

not the same thing

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MattBaggins]

159. Supernanny is a contrived show

[Luminous Animal]

186. I went regularly to a bar as a child. It was in a small town in Michigan (about 2000 people).

I'd hang out with my Uncle Pink and Aunt Moo and eat beer nuts and drink soda water. I loved it and nobody made the mistake of offering or serving me beer.

[Zookeeper]

372. I love it! "Uncle Pink and Aunt Moo."

Many people are unaware that a tavern/pub/bar can function as a community gathering place in some towns and villages, it's another opportunity for kids to learn to behave themselves in public.

[joeglow3]

327. What is your thought on banning smoking in restaurants?

Or, do restaurant owners no longer get to determine what customers they want to cater to when it negatively impacts you?

[seabeyond]

134. when i was preg a woman with too much perfume sat too close to me. thought i was going to vomit.

i was starving, but i had to get up and leave, before ordering.

i didnt even think to demand she leave for interferring with my experience.

[krabigirl]

360. Yep.

[xmas74]

205. I prefer to not take my child to a fast food restaurant.

Would I take her to an upscale restaurant? No. I prefer middle of the road-something with cloth napkins, decent table service, and food that isn't fried and nuked.

We rarely eat at fast food places and that has always been the norm. A few of the comments on here state that I should take my child to Chuck E Cheese or McDonalds. She rarely eats McDonalds and has never been inside a Chuck E Cheese because the places are all crap and bad for her. She also learned, at a very young age, how to act properly in public.

[TNLib]

45. Who wants to take there kid to Chucky Cheese for a nice evening out with the family

No parent I know wants to go to Chuck E. Cheese. Chuck E. Cheese is like hell and they have terrible food that I wouldn't feed my dog.

When I take my kid out I like to go to a nice restaurant and she enjoys it too.

We do family fun places too but there is no reason why a parent shouldn't be able to take their child to a nice restaurant.

[Pryderi]

49. Fine. But restaurants should have the right to ban kids under 6.

[alphafemale]

290. Under 6 is not unreasonable. Simply refusing to supply high chairs, booster seats, and kiddie menus

Would go along way to accomplishing much of the same thing.

[MattBaggins]

115. Seperate but equal so it's ok

[Pryderi]

263. So you're implying that a 4 year old should have the same rights as an adult?

[mwooldri]

217. Chuck E Cheese whilst "kid friendly" is IMO not "parent friendly".

It's usually for a lot of parents something that has to be endured. Plus when it comes to the pizzas themselves - you're better off not buying them, going to McD's and getting Happy Meals and eating before going to CEC - preferably in a McD with a playplace.

[slackmaster]

326. I once joined a NIMBY group called "The Citizens' Coalition Against Chuck E Cheese"

We didn't want one in our neighborhood.

[lumberjack_jeff]

349. It's not even kid friendly.

I took my son there once, he said he'd rather chew off his arm than be dragged back again.

[mwooldri]

423. A sensible boy, certainly!

Sadly, my sons love the place. As do my nieces and nephews. I'm glad to hear your son has rejected them.

[Maine-ah]

340. I laugh at these statements

I'm not saying you yourself are guilty of this, Pryderi...but I read the condemnation of fast food restaurants on this page almost on a daily basis, and how it's so bad for our kids...but then we're told this is where we should bring our kids because some think that my "brat" (who is exceptionally behaved, or else we leave)should be allowed in to certain dining establishments, where they just might get a healthy meal or movie theaters.

Not that I'd bring my daughter into an "upscale" restaurant, since those are reserved for the rare date night with the hubby.

If I ever see an establishment that bans my daughter from entering because she's a kid (or "brat" in DU-speak) they will not get my money.

[seabeyond]

342. well said. nt

[Maine-ah]

353. thanks Seabeyond

I'm tired of people lumping all kids into the "brat" category just because they don't like kids, or that they feel somehow superior for not having kids. They wouldn't be here if their parents never brought them into the world, and at one point they were a kid. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if they were once the "brat" that restaurants are kicking out.

[seabeyond]

354. some of the attitudes on these threads are indicative of an adult that never had a parent teach them

appropriate behavior when they were kids.

that has been my point.

my kids would never use degrading terminology to discuss an issue about a group of people. nor an individual person. they have just learned, and readily agree degrading others is.... wrong.

yet we have these adults enthusiastically insulting all kids....

immaturity at its finest.

[krabigirl]

359. Yuck. Sorry, I don't take my kids to places like those. I don't like crap food.

[slackmaster]

325. That is exactly how it's supposed to work

Kudos to pepperbear for getting it.

[TlalocW]

23. I can understand this (especially since I'm childfree)

Maybe they're taking it too far, but if you can afford a dinner at a fancy restaurant then you can leave the podling at home because chances are their tastebuds aren't developed enough to enjoy the food; they're going to get bored, and they're going to start making a fuss ruining the experiences of everyone else in the restaurant. A lot of parents don't understand that their lifestyles are going to have to change after having kids. So don't take the kids to Le Petite Chou-Chou. Leave them at home, and then bring them to Spaghetti Warehouse on Mondays, and I'll twist them a balloon animal.

And babies and possibly young toddlers should definitely be banned from movie theaters - not because they're going to cry (although they are), but movies - with their THX Dolby mega-sound systems - are freakin' loud. I remember going to see one of the Hulk movies (extra-double loud almost the entire time), and several couples had brought in newborns in those carrying-cases that double as car chairs. I can guarantee people who do that to babies - whose sense of hearing is still developing - are going to be raising hard-of-hearing children.

TlalocW

[unapatriciated]

173. You might be surprised at what some children enjoy.

My grandson spent a lot of time with me when he was young and started dining out with us at the ripe ole age of three. One of his favorite restaurants was Thai.

[Maine-ah]

341. my hubby is a former chef

and I still work at a restaurant. My pean ut loves all kinds of foods...all kinds of veggies to stinky cheeses. :hi:

[mwooldri]

227. I have two boys, and I mostly agree with you.

For restaurants: pick a suitable place. If bringing kids, pick out "kid friendly" or "family" restaurants if your children aren't the best behaved in the world. As they mature though, and kids mature at different rates, then other restaurants can be chosen and patronized.

For movies: Toddlers @ a cinema - a recipe for disaster. Parents who want to watch a movie - get a baby sitter, just for your own sanity!

Babies < 6 months... it's risky. You're right about loud movies in cinemas, but some cinemas are louder than others and some movies are louder. Pick the right cinema if you have a choice, pick the right movie, and if baby doesn't really cry then yes... baby can come - but again judgement is necessary. After 6 months, please get a babysitter, no matter what the movie. Your kids will be able to join you again on the G and PG rated movies in a few years. In the meantime, rent or stream a movie ... microwave your own popcorn, and have family movie nights at home. It's far cheaper and you won't be so stressed.

[Odin2005]

238. Anyone who calls themsleves "childfree" is usually a kid-hater.

[TlalocW]

249. There are various degrees of assholeishness in any group

There are those that just really hate kids, but there are those of us like moi who like them but just never wanted to have any of their own, and I can tell you one thing - in my side business, I literally make and give gifts to or otherwise entertain thousands of kids a year (magician/balloon twister) so I can't be a kid-hater. :)

TlalocW

[Odin2005]

264. Ah, OK. I was just generalizing from personal experience.

[Darth_Kitten]

296. So untrue.

That's really unfair. Bringing a child into the world doesn't necessarily make one a better,kinder, or more loving human being.

If anything, a great many more so-called "parents" ought to rethink why they had kids in the first place, because too many of them seem to be selfish, self-centred, and "haters" themselves.

[Missy Vixen]

333. And you would know this why?

Perhaps I should make generalizations about your life as well. I'm sure that will go over just fine, won't it?

Actually, those who self-identify as "childfree" do so because they consciously chose, for whatever reason, to not have children. It's not my responsibility to justify my choices to you, or to anyone else. Suffice it to say, though, I'm not a "kid-hater". It's comical to read the type of rhetoric that pops up on these threads. After all, how dare any of us live our lives, and not discuss our choices with YOU first? Oh, the humanity!

[fishwax]

362. that's BS n/t

[Lost-in-FL]

25. Ban parents. If they cannot control their kids maybe the parents are the threat. nt

[my2sense]

35. Exactly

Some parents seem to think that everyone else should tolerate their child acting up, crying, etc. I am a mother of three and never allowed my children to disrupt others. If they had a meltdown I would promptly remove them until they settled down. If I was going to a adult atmosphere I simply got a babysitter.

[seabeyond]

39. i have listened to adult rant and whine about this on du to the extent that i have used du

adults of examples for my kids.... stressing the lack of acceptance from so many adults so be sure to STAY THE FUCK OUT OF the adults way. my kids literally throw themselves up against the isles in teh grocery store to get out of adults way to the point of absurdity. the adults dont pay a damn bet of attention to being in others way, but let it be a kid and ALL kids are out of control. i watch adults literally cut in line of kids ALL the time. i am the one that speaks up. a kid keeps their mouth shut, allowing the adult to take cuts, with no repercussions.

so damn tired of this shit.

[my2sense]

60. Simply put - if you cannot control your

child - get a sitter. The world does not revolve around your children or mine. It's inconsiderate as a parent to allow children to act up in public and expect everyone to just tolerate it.

[seabeyond]

63. simply put... there are poor behaving adults that are in our face, and poor behaving kids

the majority of kids and adults behave well.

this example of adults so self absorbed to support something like this is in edivdence, issue with adults, not our kids.

[my2sense]

67. Parents of unruly children

are the ones that are selfish and self-absorbed. The responsibly is on the parents NOT the children. We are not discussing RUDE adults, but RUDE parents.

[Maine-ah]

363. in restaurant world

I have dealt with more adult assholes than parents not controlling their kids. Heh, and I managed an Applebee's.

[xmas74]

419. And the menu for the restaurant in the OP

reminded me a bit of an Applebee's menu. Last place I would think of as "adult only" is Applebee's.

[demosincebirth]

59. Kudos to you. We done the same thing. We refused to be embarrassed by our kids.

[gkhouston]

36. I don't have an issue, as long as the same places ban cell phones.

I find loud cell phone conversations at the next table to be just as distracting as crying children. If the goal is to provide a quiet, restful dining experience, let's put the phones on stun and not have the muzak cranked up so loud it's impossible to have a conversation with other people at the same table.

[demosincebirth]

41. +100

[tblue37]

103. LOL--Put the phones on stun. Good one! nt

[onpatrol98]

239. +1000

Keep the kids...

Ban

1) loud people on cell phones
2) people with earrings in places that have become infected and make you want to throw up
3) people who wear their underwear above their pants
4) people with BO problems
5) loud people in general
6) people who don't tip no matter how good the service
7) people who smoke
8) people who take their teeth out at the table
9) people who make out at their tables...with sound effects

[FirstLight]

47. lots exclude without outright saying it...

Went to a nearby local town, used to have a diner and a nice hotel restaurant, family run, etc...

All of a sudden the whole little town decided it was an 'upscale destination'... and ALL the restaurants are just over the top and the menus are SO not kid friendly. The hotel went 'fine dining' (so forget about a cheeseburger, or any meal under $25, the deli was closed after 2 but this was the kicker:

when a pizza place has only their own gourmet-style pizza with carmelized onions and gouda cheese, but no "regular" pizza...it's just ridiculous.

we ended up driving all the way back to our hometown and going to a local family-friendly place right around the corner from home. Screw the yuppies.

[Gin]

51. (IMO) marriage & children are overrated!!!!

:)

[madinmaryland]

55. Good point. You have and did make the choice to eat a restaurant

that met your requirements. If a restaurant wants to cater to yuppies or to families they should have that right. If it kills their business, then it is their right to fail.

[SoCalDem]

194. "Every" place need not cater to "everyone"

A place decides what it wants to be by the ambiance & cost.

Most parents "know" which places are suitable for "their" kids, and many do teach impeccable manners to their little ones, but unfortunately, a LOT do not..

They tend to see a "public place" and decide that their ruffians can run amok and annoy others at will, because THEY are "the customers".

[Hell Hath No Fury]

48. Back in the day -

there were "restaurants", and then there were "family restaurants". There were plenty of times I was left behind with a sitter when the dining setting was inappropriate for me. I was at least six before I went to a full-on restaurant, and my behavior was expected to be the best when I did -- no running around, no loud talking, no disturbing people -- and I was at the age where I could do that.

Sambo's, Denny's, Mel's, Red Roof -- these were all family restaurants we went to often when I was very young, and they were perfectly appropriate places for a young child.

Things changed and parents, instead of hiring a sitter or going to a family friendly restaurant like they used to, were bringing very young children to places they really had no business being.

I think a restaurant that caters to adults is well within its rights to discourage folks who insist on dining with their very young children from their premises.

[Pryderi]

52. +100

[tammywammy]

86. +1 n/t

[xmas74]

214. But in this case

the menu doesn't really lead you to believe that it caters exclusively to adults. I've been to plenty of restaurants that were "family friendly" with similar menus.

In what world is "batter fried chicken breast" with a side of fries upscale dining?

When my child was young (and my salary was decent) we would eat out on a Friday evening, usually before six pm. We often dined at places with menus similar to the one in the OP. I had a cocktail, she had a mocktail (or Shirley Temple at another place), and we'd have an entire meal that we would split in half. We did this once or twice a month and split everything-appetizer, salad, entree. Dining out at a decent hour allowed her the opportunity to work on her table manners. We were complemented on a regular basis on how polite and well-mannered she was while in the restaurant. (One of the regular waitresses once stated that my child was actually "cleaner" in her dining area compared to most adults.)

My child also knew where we were going and how to act as soon as we dressed ourselves at home. We always dressed in something nice, brushed her hair until it crackled, and scrubbed her face and hands. While grooming we would discuss where we were eating and what was expected. She understood, compared to some of the adults who frequented the place in filthy outfits, lewd comments about the waitresses and foul language sometimes yelled across the dining area.

It really is about how children are raised. Some are rotten and some are not. Then again, same can be said for adults. And if I were to just look at the menu online I wouldn't think that it was an "adults only" restaurant. The menu was no different than most at a TGI Fridays or an Applebees, which are both popular family destinations.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

425. You're clearly a very good parent --

and that makes all the difference. I went to restaurant with a 5 year old niece who was allowd to run around and annoy the other customers -- when I mentioned this to her Mom, the reply was, "She's not bothering anyone." Her parenting? Not so good. :(

[xmas74]

426. It's not that I'm such a good parent.

It's the fact that I did my job and I used dining out as a teaching experience. All the skills that were taught at home were put to a practical use in the restaurant. This reward reinforced her good behavior.

If a parent can afford to take a child to a nicer restaurant they should do so, as a way of teaching them how to behave properly in a public place. With a smaller child we always tried to dine off-peak. The reason for this is because the restaurant isn't as busy so she wasn't as stimulated. Another good reason is because we could work on our "lessons" and were less likely to bother others. (Only one did she even remotely bother someone, though I later learned it was all in my mind. There was a diner nearby that had a hook for a hand and she stared in fascination. I apologized profusely but he was wonderful about it, answering her questions and commenting about how I had a polite, well-behaved yet inquisitive child.) Never once have I ever had anything but praise come from the staff for her behavior. They were always impressed.

By putting in blanket bans like the one in the OP we take away these little learning experiences. Some say six is too young to worry about their manners in a public place. My personal belief was that as soon as they were old enough to hold their own spoon and glass they were old enough to learn to place a napkin in their lap and to attempt to wipe their own mouths. Of course, they need help with everything which is why practice is so important.

[onpatrol98]

289. As a parent...

I can generally tell. My children are well behaved regardless of the restaurant setting. But, I assume my children like some places better than others. Except for occasions like anniversaries or the rare date night, we're going to pick family friendly places. On those occasions when it's just me and my husband, we go to a "real" restaurant. I typically don't see kids in these places anyway. The prices are much higher. The atmosphere is much more...stuffy. So, the unhappy restaurant owners must be of some brand in between. I find that most parents, like myself, self select appropriate restaurants.

[pleah]

375. Word

[n2doc]

58. Fine. If the economy is doing so well that they can do without me and mine, so be it

I won't go there even if the kids have a sitter. But it is their right.

[seabeyond]

65. my kids are older, and i will go elsewhere, too. nt

[Luminous Animal]

80. I'm with you. My daughter visited posh restaurants since she was an infant...

All the owners watched her grow up (she's 21 now) and when she is not with us, they ask about her.

[n2doc]

106. Yep. The first restaurant my family went to after my son was born was a fancy on in DC

We were on pins and needles hoping he would stay asleep. He did, and we had a nice meal.

[lbrtbell]

64. Here's a better solution

When parents won't make their kids behave, give them a warning--if that doesn't work, make that group leave. Fair to the other patrons, and fair to the well-behaved kids.

[seabeyond]

66. that is to rational, reasonable, progressive. much better to label ALL kids brats.

so mature.

i am glad these adults are not teaching my children thinking something thru

[EFerrari]

68. A restaurant never wants to be in the position of having cross words

with its customers.

[lbrtbell]

108. That's part of owning a business

If someone of any age starts a disruption, you have to put a lid on it immediately.

That same restaurant will have to ask an adult to leave if he gets drunk and starts dancing on a table. Asking people to keep their child's noise level down is no different. :)

[Thegonagle]

273. I'm in to this idea. There will be some "nice" restaurants where kids

are not welcome, and still a hell of a lot more "family" restaurants where all family members are served.

[Silent3]

417. Situations with rowdy adults do happen, but not very often compared to kids

It may be the same kind of responsibility to deal with such adults, and it may be just as unpleasant as dealing with parents with disruptive children, but the odds of having to eject adults are much lower.

[demosincebirth]

75. Some times that'll really start some crap.

[StarsInHerHair]

102. they probably already tried that & it failed

the whole world revolves around THEIR kids....so not true

[seabeyond]

104. it seems to me yawl see the whole world revolving around..... YOU. nt

[StarsInHerHair]

109. nope, I'm just me, but you seem to be on a roll here

[Missy Vixen]

171. Restauranteurs woudn't feel the need to specify that people NOT bring

children under 6 if they had not had numerous problems with Little Pwecious (and his or her parents,) in the past.

There's a recession on. Restaurants are failing left and right. If the restaurant's owners thought it would harm their business, they never would have made the change. Their e-mail was 11 to 1 in support of the move, their revenues are up, and I know where I'd be eating.

I can count the number of times on one hand we've been lucky enough to have dinner at a very nice restaurant, and HAVEN'T observed an issue involving someone else's too-young progeny. My favorite was the "birthday dinner" for the screaming five-year-old at Bellevue, WA's Daniel's Broiler. Take a look at the menu. http://www.schwartzbros.com/pdf/DBP_Dinner.pdf

If you want to go to Chez Big Bucks, get a sitter, or don't go. Period.

[MedicalAdmin]

147. I agree with this idea.

An establishment could even post a sign saying something like this: "crying and / or misbehaving children, like good intentions, should be carried out immediately ... And mangement reserves the right to ask any parents not exercising their responsibility as parents to leave with our speedy well wishes."

[Missy Vixen]

175. One of our favorite restaurants has the following sign by the front door

"Unattended children will be given an espresso and a free puppy." I had the same sign in my former business as well.

Chace's Pancake Corral in Bellevue, WA has been in business for well over 50 years. They allow kids, but they do NOT put up with the screaming-and-running-around variety. They seem to have survived. http://www.yelp.com/biz/chaces-pancake-corral-bellevue

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

163. It's easier to ban someone than it is to ask them to leave

I've been to countless restaurants where parents have been asked politley to control their kids, keep them seated, etc.......and the parents throw a fit much like the kids.

[snagglepuss]

234. You're assuming that parents across the board are gracious but they're

not, many are obnoxious which is why their kids are obnoxious and these parents like nothing better than have confrontations.

[Lucian]

267. I prefer the childless option better.

Then you're guaranteed that no child will be whining and crying when you're trying to enjoy the night out.

[southernyankeebelle]

70. I have mixed feelings. Today it's kids under 6, tommorrow no blacks, the

next day after no hispanics, then no gays, no tall, and no fat and so on. Be careful what you wish for.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

166. Wow, that's racist

Blacks, gays, hispanics can't control themselves in a restaurant?

[dgibby]

73. Personally,

I just want them out of Congress.

[MattBaggins]

77. We truly are the Nation of Selfishness

It's disgusting where we are headed.

[WolverineDG]

89. Now it's "selfish" to expect parents to teach their kids to behave?

So we have to STFU because another person has kids & expects us to worship at their little darling's feet?

Excuse me, McFly? But who's the selfish one again?

dg

[MattBaggins]

99. All kids are not as bad as you drama queens pretend.

[lbrtbell]

112. Of course not

But one such child can emit shrieks well above safe noise limits. I've had an eardrum injured this way; why should I have to endure the pain and foot the doctor bill for it? I ride in a motorized mart cart (because I can't walk long distances), which puts my ears dangerously close to screaming children, whether they're in a cart or walking beside one. Seated diners face the same situation. It's not just an inconvenience, it can cause injury, as it did to me.

Kids over 6, as has been pointed out, can be guilty of equally bad behavior. That's why I think a ban is pointless. Just kick out the people who let their kids shriek and run around, and let well-behaved kids stay.

[MattBaggins]

142. We seem to be in a state of agreement.

I am fully well aware of the power of a good shriek. My 5 year old has the ability to hit pitches that would make canaries drop dead.

I do feel sorry for parents in a lot of public places when the littlest ones start a tantrum. Many people don't seem to agree but the best way to cut off tantrums is to completely ignore them. No reaction at all has an amazing affect on curbing them. Works fine at home but if you do this in public half the people around you will look at you like your a monster.

[MedicalAdmin]

It's ONE way to deal with it. It's not the only way.

I will assume that you know you kid best, but if your kid was shrieking right next to me and you did nothing, I would be highly tempted to ask your child to be quieter.

As a parent what would your reaction be to that?

[MattBaggins]

164. Depends on the situation but most lilkely I'd apologize as warranted

and ignore you if not. Not likely to happen as I wouldn't let my kids shriek.

[kiranon]

193. Autistic children have a very identifiable shriek and the parents cannot

control when or where it may come out. Should these children never be allowed out in public?

[Book Lover]

270. Thank you (nm)

[MedicalAdmin]

364. Good to know.

ANd thanks for your answer.

[marions ghost]

200. that's what I resort to

like the kid who was kicking the back of my seat in a booth, or the kids who threw their food all over the floor and were allowed to get up and run amok around the place.

I just give them a stern look and say, "You--Stop that."

Does the trick every time. If the parents don't like it I just shrug. I don't bother with complaints or lectures to the parents. I figure if they really cared they'd do something about it. I just go directly to the kids.

I'm not one to get irritated at a little thing--it has to be seriously bad behavior. But I guess I'm sympathetic with the restaurant as it seems a lot of parents just don't believe in teaching kids that there are some places where you can't do whatever you want.

Takes a village I guess.

[yankeeswin]

287. I had that happen on a train

and I turned around and did the same thing. The mother (?) wasn't quite sure what to say but she kept her kid under control the rest of the trip. She probably was more embarrassed that she didn't do so in the beginning of the trip. As she should have been.

I would go to this restaurant, provided the food and service were good. I'm not afraid to confront a parent whose child is acting up but I don't like to and shouldn't have to. The restaurant owner has probably had these situations in the past and found the PARENTS cause a bigger scene when asked to deal with the problem so he/she did the most logical thing to protect the dining experience for the majority of the patrons.

I see people are scolded for being selfish and blamed for being all "it's about me" but frankly, when I go out and spend my hard earned money to have an enjoyable evening, it is all about me. I patronize establishments that cater to me, which means not allowing disruptions to my (and others) entertainment experiences.

[marions ghost]

299. You'd think the parents

would ALSO like to go to places where THEY can get away from noisy kids occasionally. :shrug:

This isn't discriminatory. There are all sorts of family friendly restaurants that want and cater to kids (still doesn't mean they should be allowed total freedom). Plenty of options.
:nopity:

I agree the restaurant owner in question has probably tangled with parents and just doesn't think the negativity is good for business. We all know this owner is probably not against the kids who DO behave in public, but in a restaurant situation, you can't tell when they come in the door. Serving the majority of customers is what all businesses have to do.

I know these parents exist who will cause a scene. I had it happen once in a home improvement store. A kid of about 4 (old enough to know better) was pulling all this stuff off of shelves in the spot where I was trying to find what I wanted. Throwing it at my feet where I was standing. Really having a great time dismantling the display racks while his mother watched approvingly. (Anyone who works in retail will KNOW I am not lying). I glared at the kid and said Stop That please. (that is all) Well the mother went absolutely ballistic and screeched, Stop abusing my Child! She kept up a torrent of over-protective abuse--it was like "Leave little _____ALONE!" Really over the top. It was like I had morphed into the hated Supernanny with only those few words. I didn't engage, just let her make a scene until her embarrassed husband showed up and jerked her off the stage.

Selfishness. What about the selfishness of parents who refuse to teach their kids any boundaries?

What I worry about IS the kids. Ultimately kids like this (spoiled, entitled) will be taught boundaries by others. This is NOT pleasant for kids as they are growing up. And it can make for some very selfish adults. (Who will probably refuse to set boundaries for their kids...) There is a large part of the world that does not appreciate people like this. Parents are doing their own kids a disservice in not teaching them that they must show respect for others.

Welcome to DU yankeeswin. :thumbsup:

[yankeeswin]

302. Thanks for the welcome

I was here years ago and lost interest for one reason or another.

Anyway, by the time the restaurant manager intervenes, the experience of other diners has already been damaged. Managers are loathe to throw out a paying customer and risk that they don't come back (likely). Not sure why some get so bent out of shape- there are plenty of FINE restaurants that are agreeable to well-behaved children, and not just chains. I also don't understand why the menu of this restaurant means their kid ban is inappropriate. They could be serving hot dogs- if they want an adults only crowd for the enjoyment of their diners, they should have one. Some people like to argue I guess.

[marions ghost]

334. A lot of parents of young children

have blinders on about this. All the more important that it needs to be said. The restaurant owner would not be doing this if there was no real and continual problem. It does reflect a larger problem in society --when a significant number of parents feel that showing respect to others will somehow curb their child's freedom. Sad that it has to come to barring children but the business is well within its rights to protect itself, esp in these hard times when returning customers are key, as u say.

IMO it's part of the "preciousness" of children that is an inevitable part of families today where one or two kids tends to be the norm (with 3 being beyond what most working parents can cope with without a lot of stress). Look at China with it's little Prince and Princess syndrome. The hyper focus on that one chick or 2 brings out this blindness in parents.

Why would a parent want their child to be scorned and expelled from places? Why make a child socially inept and clueless, possibly for life, if bad public behavior isn't dealt with at an early age? It's also about teaching patience and self-control as much as it is about respecting others.

Parents of young kids: give your kids limits in no-nonsense and fair ways--they'll thank you. And while you're at it, set an example for your friends who are letting their kids rule them.

[MedicalAdmin]

367. George Carlin on child worship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rIPe5akN48

[marions ghost]

373. ha ha

that's good. Had not seen before. Thanks

"Put him out in the yard with a stick." I remember a lot of that kind of time. I used to take the stick and draw in the dirt. Makes kids resourceful & creative. But some people today would see it as child abuse...

[MedicalAdmin]

382. My parents were real big on being outside.

Partially because they thought it was good for me but also because they needed a break from my pimply assed attitude back then.

[MedicalAdmin]

366. As a former prison guard I can attest that the prisons are filled ...

... with many who were not taught that there are limits to what they can get away with. Most of them will learn their lesson and move on with life. But it is too bad that it has to go that far.

I too was recently accosted by some "parental units" who let their kid run the show. The kid was miserable, the parents were miserable, and so was everyone around them. I asked the kid to be quiet and the kid was. The parents however decided to get up in my face. I asked them to back down and move on and I would do the same. Fortunately for both of us they took my advice.

[marions ghost]

371. Will you please write a book

for parents? :) Maybe "the Nanny" has that covered pretty well, but it could be a different perspective, coming from a former prison guard.

There is absolutely a strong connection between kids with no boundaries ending up in prison later. Society (at large expense) finally shows them where the line is. Or, if the kid goes the professional route, he can always become a white collar criminal and head up a large corporation... These same type of entitled, no boundaries kids can do street crime OR "suite crime".....depending on
their ability to work the system.

[MedicalAdmin]

380. I also used to teach junior and high school with some elementary.

I was a band director and I saw some freaky stuff from some kids and their freakier parents. To be fair I also saw some excellent parenting and kids but mostly that was because band directors usually get to see the top 10 % of students in terms of behavior and grades... it's the nature of the beast. But I also taught in the inner city, the burbs and in the country and I would take the poor country or inner city kids over the suburban brats any day of the week.

Honestly I didn't see much difference between junior high and prison in terms of behavior. It was smellier in the prison but a quieter. The hours were better and the pay was better too.

[ohheckyeah]

161. Nor are they anywhere near as good

as the perfect parents with perfect kids would have us believe.

[WolverineDG]

303. Is name-calling all you have left?

Yes, it IS selfish to expect other people, including parents who teach their kids how to behave, to put up with children who are allowed to run wild & cause havoc in public places not meant or geared towards children.

dg

[StarsInHerHair]

105. +1,000,000,000

[seabeyond]

91. absolutely. and the arrogant obtuseness on this thread is simply... amazing. nt

[StarsInHerHair]

107. never have seen "Supernanny", have you?

[seabeyond]

110. what does that have to do with a damn thing. nt

[StarsInHerHair]

111. omfg! you are SO FAKE!!!!! THAT show is PROOF of WHY places are banning kids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjgIsEsotag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF-Ry-Wm-MM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYhbtseinRs

[seabeyond]

135. so, a tv show that looks for the out of control child is suppose to tell me what my experience is

in the real world. and that makes me fake.

you go off a show that looks for the misbehaving child as YOUR RL, then accuse me of being fake.


what a fuckin laugh.

[MattBaggins]

113. Supernanny does not equal banning kids

Serious poutrage from the kid haters on DU.

[lbrtbell]

123. You missed the point

The point being made was that there are so many awful parents letting their kids grow up to be screaming mini-demons, that this highly common experience was even turned into a successful TV show.

It's the parents letting their kids become monsters, and it's not only annoying to people around them, it's a disservice to the children, because it makes them get rejected by society.

[MattBaggins]

136. All very true yet none of which equates to an all out ban on kids.

If someone suggested that any minority group be excluded from an establishment they would be ridiculed.

Every time that some jackass starts yammering away in a movie theater it has always been a woman. Women should be banned from movie theaters.

[yankeeswin]

288. You would have a point

if kids were a protected class. Oh wait, they aren't.

[vim876]

337. Which would matter...

if we were talking about the law. Oh, wait, we aren't. We're talking about what's right, not what's legal.

[seabeyond]

138. there are some awful adults out there too. drunk, obnoxious, out of control adults. talking loudly

on their cell phone. no manners. rude. laughing loudly.

so what

[kiva]

But the difference is that restaurants are far more likely to

eject an adult because they are (rightly) seen as being responsible for their boorish behavior. Few business owners will insist that a parent remove a child for behaving like a child, even though any considerate parent would do exactly that if they had any respect for for their fellow diners.

[ohheckyeah]

162. And sometimes they get thrown out of establishments

for their behavior. We, as adults, can confront another adult, but we dare not confront someone else's child.

[seabeyond]

180. no. you dont throw the child out. you ask the parent to step outside until child is

not disturbing others, or pack up food and leave. been a waitress. done that.

[ohheckyeah]

190. Most parents don't react well when their children are criticized.

I'd rather deal with a drunk than a pissed off parent any day.

[seabeyond]

196. then really, dont own a business. part of the issues one has to deal with. a pissed off customer

is way worse.... we still have to deal with it.

[ohheckyeah]

250. It has nothing to do with owning a business.

If I'm a customer in a place with an adult acting an ass I feel free to say something to that person and have been known to. If it's a kid acting like a brat, I don't feel free to say something.

[seabeyond]

257. no, you say something to the owner and they take care of the issue.

has been handled this way forever. i worked in restaurants for years and it was seldom we had issues with any kids. people are making a big stinking deal over crap. and intolerance of each other in our world.

a little kid causing problem, the manager or owner kicks them out.

we had more issues with teenagers without parents that or drunks or adults than any kids.

people are thinking really weird on this issue

[Bonobo]

100. +1 nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

223. I have all the parts of the world that I don't approve of on ignore.

It's a big list.

[-..__...]

78. It's about time.

Furthermore... unless it's a childrens movie being shown, I'd also welcome the same policy (at least when infants are concerned), in movie theaters as well.

[lbrtbell]

114. Taking infants to a movie theater is cruel

The sounds are too loud...is it no wonder babies start crying?

If you can't afford a sitter, rent the DVD when it comes out, and watch it after the baby is asleep.

[RocketTuna]

79. I've often wondered

if these anti-brat policies are less about the kids - the majority of them do behave themselves at least as well as the adults in my experience - and more about the parents.

When I've worked in the service industry off and on, parents with children in tow proved themselves to be nightmare customers, regardless if their children were mild mannered or complete hellions. Upper middle class parents in particular seem to think they not only can make bizarre demands on the staff, but that they suddenly have a say in other customers' behavior. They tend to act like the whole world has an obligation to become Sesame Street the minute they step outside their house. I had one woman try to demand that a group of 20 year old women "cover up" out at a hotel pool because she decided to bring her two (perfectly behaved) little kids out - they were wearing bathing suits and she wanted them to wrap themselves in towels or put their clothes back on.

Have you noticed the passive aggressive stares and sighs you get from these parents when you go out lately? It certainly makes me want to avoid any place where people are bringing children, and I'm sure it chases away business and stresses out the staff. It has nothing to do with the actual kids though.

[lbrtbell]

A valid point

Annoying parents are the reason annoying kids exist.

[Mimosa]

203. I bet you've got some stories RocketTuna.

I'd dined with acquaintances who had kids. One was Mrs. Average middle class America. She had 3 kids. The 2 oldest were alright but the youngest was an overindulged monster. Our friendship ended after we went to one of my fave Viet restaurants in New Orleans. Friend's 6 year old complained, whined but WORST threw food all around and played with the table implements, dropping stuff all over the floor. She never said a word about the boy's rudeness and his temper tantrums. NO, HE WAS NOT AUTISTIC. Just spoiled. I was embarrassed because I knew somebody would have to clean up a totally unnecessary mess on the table and floor.

I've noticed my friends with kids never seem to think of tipping servers extra for imposing messes or fussy eaters upon them Families with kids often do not tip even 15% I've noticed. And they take longer to eat so the tables don't flip. I can imagine why some restaurants (the 'moderately priced ones with liquore licenses) feel they can do without the kiddie business.

[LLStarks]

82. If my kids act like adults, they'll be treated as such. nt

[last_texas_dem]

87. I'm a bigger fan of the

no-adults-with-sticks-up-their-asses movement. Wouldn't mind not having to deal with them in public...

[OmahaBlueDog]

93. You don't like my kids, you don't get my money. That simple.

:evilfrown:

[yankeeswin]

298. Works for me

You have choices. So do I. Most of the time I don't mind going to a diner and seeing kids. I love kids. Sometimes I do. Glad I have a choice.

[Bonobo]

97. Hating kids is hating humans is hating yourselves.

Americans loathe each other and it is coming apart. This type of movement shows the cultural emptiness of the West.

[seabeyond]

101. geez....

i agree with you on something. wow.

yea. lol

[Bonobo]

127. Oh, I'm not a bad guy once you get to know me...

I'm sure I'd like you to if we met in real life.

I like your spunk.

[seabeyond]

140. lol

i was not in any way implying otherwise. merely, we dont often agree. and again i will agree, i like most all people i meet, one way or another.

[jberryhill]

198. +1

I really can't think offhand of any mammalian species in which adults detest the young of their own species to the extent that some humans do.

In fact, across mammalian species, absent actual hunger-driven predation, most mammalian species have a nurturing reaction to the young of other species. That's why you see so many of those zoo situations in which one mammal is a foster parent to another mammal.

There is something about the tenor of these threads which is really weird.

[Posteritatis]

276. Therefore, all men are Socrates. (nt)

[slackmaster]

328. It's possible to not want to be around people without hating them

Think about it for a moment.

[Evoman]

98. Kids are annoying, but hey...life is annoying.

Kids learn how to be socialized in dining etiquette by eating at dining establishments.

Adults learn patience by being exposed to other peoples bratty kids.

It's win/win lol.

[lbrtbell]

118. Will you pay for my "patience"?

The doctor bills for my injured eardrum weren't cheap. Why should I have to pay for an injury caused by lazy parents who won't teach their children how to behave in public?

It's not the world's job to cater to other people's children. It's a parent's job to teach their children how to relate to the world.

[Bonobo]

131. Actually...

In most societies, even non-human primate societies, exercising some responsibilities for other little ones is part and parcel of belonging to the culture.

In many cultures, YOU would be the one ostracized for failing to live up to YOUR responsibilities as a member of a community.

[yankeeswin]

297. So somehow not wanting to tolerate screaming kids

in EVERY restaurant is "not exercising responsibilities." Got it. I'll play the violin for you when parents with small children have no place decent to go. Until then...

Not my kids, not my problem.

[Odin2005]

153. LOL, how the fuck could a kid's screaming DAMAGE your eardrum?

I call BS on this. It might be annoying, but being around screaming kids isn't going to damage your ears unless you are right next to a screaming kid all day every day.

[MattBaggins]

168. I don't know

My one daughter can bring tears to a Canary's eyes if she wants.

[MedicalAdmin]

392. They could damage it.

I am a former pro musician and recording engineer and now work in the medical field and if there is enough sound pressure then damage can occur. Although it is unlikely that the average kid could produce enough volume or pressure to damage the average eardrum from an average distance, in some cases the child could produce enough pressure, be in close enough proximity, and be doing it so someone who has a higher than average sensitive eardrum, such as myself.

Keep in mind that room design, composition, materials, volume and ceiling height are also contributing factors along with other contributing ambient sound.

So although unlikely, it is not impossible or even highly improbable depending on the circumstances.

[snagglepuss]

235. Wrong. Kids ought to learn and practice good manners at home not when

they're out.

[Warren DeMontague]

116. Oh, no! Where will the kids and I eat the next time we're vacationing in Pittsburgh?

...






Truly, a dilemma. :rofl:

[Bill McBlueState]

119. a classy restaurateur

would be happy just to deal with problems as they arise.

This guy, on the other hand, wants media attention.

[uppityperson]

121. ban people based on behavior, not age. Ban obnoxious children or adults.

One of my best dining experiences was having my young child win a gift cert at The Upscale restaurant in town. We went together, looking over the menu, deciding what to order, appreciating the fine food. "oh this is SO SUCCULENT" being lisped at me. My child was concerned that if we put the tip in with the bill the waiter wouldn't get it, so had to be reassured there. The restaurant owner came out to visit us during the meal, having heard of this well behaved youngster.

I have had more meals ruined by obnoxious or drunk adults than any kids. Ban the behavior, and the people if they don't behave.

[lbrtbell]

125. Ban the behavior...+1000! n/t

[Curmudgeoness]

122. What is wrong with a business catering to an adults-only crowd?

There are businesses catering to kids. What is wrong with allowing the marketplace to determine whether this model fails or succeeds? I believe that many people would not frequent a restaurant (or other business) that restricts kids. And I also believe that just as many people would choose to go to that place. But time would tell on this.

[Warren DeMontague]

129. Get a liquor license and/or add some strippers

Then you will have an adults only crowd, for sure.

[Curmudgeoness]

145. I agree about the strippers, but why should adults

who want an evening without kids around have to go to a strip club? Shouldn't there be something more?

And as to the liquor license, at least around here, that has nothing to do with a kid-free atmosphere. Most restaurants where adults choose to go have liquor, and those same restaurants often have kids there.

[Warren DeMontague]

237. If this business model is a good idea, this guy will probably find out soon.

I suspect that the number of people chafing at the bit to have a kid-free dining experience are far outnumbered by the people who think this guy's being sort of a prick.

[MedicalAdmin]

394. When a smoking ban was instituted here in all public buildings.

The restaurant / bar owners went ballistic predicting the apocalypse. And most saw an increase in business as more people, who previously stayed away, showed up for a smoke free dinner and drink.

[sarcasmo]

148. +1

[StarsInHerHair]

132. I think they're banning the SUPER NANNY type of kids, NOT normal average

kids. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqQNSJTcIQg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=636inNcDCl0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7ss124hSWw&feature=related

[nini]

137. Back in the stone age when I was a kid..

If we acted up out in public and didn't respond to my mom's request to knock it off, we were removed from the location and went home - regardless of where it was. ONE TIME of that happening taught us we either behaved or we didn't get to go. The wrath of the siblings who suffered along with the one that caused the problem was worse than my mom's actions.

Those parents who have lost the ability to control their kids are the ones that make our time out miserable for the rest of us. I pay to go out to restaurants etc.. not to have to listen to kids who don't behave. The kids that behave are a joy - the ones that control their parents and refuse to behave do not belong in a civilized environment. They need to stay home with a sitter or simply stay home.

It's not too much to ask for parents to do their job with their kids. The parents would be happier. The kids would be happier and the rest of us would be too.

[sarcasmo]

143. Right on, I have been begging for an adults only place to dine.

[Odin2005]

149. Kid-haters suck. They are selfish people that think kids are "crotch droppings".

In my experience most people that hate kids are grumpy, cranky, "serious people" that don't have a fun bone in their body.

[kiva]

156. Who on here is saying they are a "kid-hater"

Seriously, saying that some places should be adult-only does not mean a person hates kids, only that there should be places that do not cater to kids. I know many parents who are perfectly happy having somewhere to go for adult time, you know when they want to go out without their own children and not deal with other people's kids.

[WolverineDG]

307. Anyone who expects parents to teach their kids to behave is a "child-hater"

oh, & we're selfish too, allegedly.

dg

[nini]

165. Why is it hating kids to prefer they not scream and run around in places they shouldn't be?

:shrug:

NO ONE is saying all kids are bad. It's those FEW who have parents that don't do their job.

I was in a restaurant once and this kid was running all over the place and almost tripped up a waitress carrying a big tray of food. The waitress came down on her knee in a weird way and almost fell. The parents were all put out when I barked at the kid to sit down and behave. That is an extreme case but the cause is the same... those parents are selfish and rude for not expecting their children to sit and behave like everyone else has to - including adults.

A well behaved child does not mean the child is not happy - why is that so hard to understand?

[Odin2005]

174. Nearly all kids are NOT like that.

The Kid-Haters seem to think that all kids are rude and distruptive. There is NO reason to ban kids outright from a place unless it is a bar or strip club or other place inappropriate for kids. If a restaurant thinks a particular kid is being disrupting and the parents refuse to discipline the kids then the family should simply be made to leave and told that they will be banned from the restaurant of it happens again.

[nini]

421. You can't seem to separate 'kid haters' from those annoyed with bad manndered kids

it's not that black/white.

There's a wide spectrum of behavior and places involved where there cannot be one rule to cover all places so we agree on that.

HOWEVER, you are assuming anyone who does not want to be around kids who have parents that don't watch them hates kids.. that's simply not true. Not all kids are bad but there is obviously enough of a problem in society these days where it's even an issue.

[Pisces]

167. I have kids I love, but when I get a babysitter and go out to a nice dinner I don't

want to hear someone else's kids whining or crying. This does not make me a kid hater.

[seabeyond]

188. brat bans was meant to offend. a lot of posters on here mean to offend

so, why trying excusing when they do? that was the purpose of brat ban, and the purpose of posters on this thread.

i dont want to listen to a kid screamin either. and i hardly ever listen to a kid screaming while i am out and about.

to imply this is a norm is bullshit.

on edit... if there are restaurants that want adult only, fine....

but it is the purposeful anti child i find offensive.

[Curmudgeoness]

169. Really? This is a bit much. All of a sudden it is kid-hating

to want to have an evening without kids around? Hell, I wouldn't be surprised that many parents would like to have an evening without kids, and I doubt that they hate their kids.

[fishwax]

172. of course, wanting to have a meal without kids doesn't make one a kid-hater.

[seabeyond]

brat bans? it wasnt meant to offend? or to label ALL children as brats?

read the posts. lots of hate.

[fishwax]

191. sorry, seabeyond, but I'm not sure what you mean by your subject line

I didn't say anything about the term "brat bans" or whether anything was meant to offend. Nor did I say that there was no such thing as people who hate kids.

Saying all kids are brats is simply inaccurate, in my view, and grossly so. Also is assuming that anyone who thinks a restaurant catering to adults is a decent idea hates kids or is intolerant or is a control freak or whatever. I've read the posts, and I see unjustified broad brushing from both sides of this issue.

[seabeyond]

197. the op article started with brat bans...

and many posts are simply anti child broadbrushing all children as out of control brats.

my children always have and still works very hard with manners and good behavior and i am so god damn tired of a bunch of condescending adults prohecting all kids as brats, lazy, fat, stupid, ect...

just another thread.

if this thread in any way approached in a reasoned manner as some places for adults only, there would not be anger. that is not how this op articles presents the issue. it is presented in an anti child world.

[fishwax]

210. I don't know -- there's always anger in these threads, whether they start with "brat bans" or not

Child-free restaurants are a tried and true flame-fest generator. It's pretty much guaranteed. I've never seen a thread on this subject that didn't include assumptions and broad brushing and mudslinging from various parties.

[Missy Vixen]

183. Better get out that broad brush

You might need more than one! After all, we probably didn't see the phrase "kid-hater" when you only said it once.

:eyes:

[jberryhill]

199. True dat

[pecwae]

280. Who's a 'kid hater'?

It's so easy to use that term, but it's disingenuous to say the least. If someone is paying a chunk of change for a meal and is seated next to screaming children why does it bother you that they complain that their meal has been ruined? Most of those complainers are probably grandparents or parents who got a sitter for the evening. Is it selfish for them to expect to enjoy a quiet or even romantic meal together in an obviously adult restaurant? I guess they too 'hate' their own children for wanting to get away for a couple of hours.

A parent can become inured to the voices and actions of their children. It becomes such a background noise that they can hold conversations, read or watch over it. It's part of parenting and part of childhood. I don't see that it's a crime or cause to label someone a 'kid hater' for adults to sometimes want the company of another adult in a child free atmosphere.

I don't know where you've experienced all these 'kid haters' you mention. I've known precious few that I would call haters of children. I do know tons of parents who enjoy an evening out away from their children. Guess what? They don't hate their kids, they love them fiercely.

[sofa king]

285. To be clear, this is a ban of the parents of bad kids.

And yes, just like bad cops, bad lawyers, and bad doctors, bad parents drag down their entire profession.

The ban was originally cooked up by this former sociologist because he could find no way to force indifferent parents to curb the behavior of their children in a public setting.

That issue has safety and liability implications above and beyond that of simple politeness and propriety, so it's likely to spread just as quickly as bad behavior among children does.

[WinkyDink]

294. I have never before seen your gross term.

[Lucian]

393. Or maybe we just want to enjoy a night out without having to deal with someone's...

whiny little kids.

Many times have I had my dining experience ruined because of some little Junior Son-of-a-Bitch who wouldn't stop crying over something trivial. If parents want to bring their goddamn kids to a restaurant, they can go to family-friendly ones like McDonald's or Pizza Hut.

[MedicalAdmin]

395. Project much.

I mean based on your post, you seem to be a crumpy, granky, serious person without a fun bone in your body.

Crotch droppings? WTF?

[Mimosa]

152. "Brat bans"???

I don't even have kids and I find this offensive.


If a restaurant owner wants to say 'no' to hosting kids under 6, I don't have problem with it. He'll lose the parent's money. I don't see this becoming a big trend. Cheap family friendly restaurants will always be around.

[devilgrrl]

155. The only places I see kids screaming are at places where kids are likely to be.

Playgrounds, amusement parks, etc. :shrug:

The only time I get upset with kids while I'm out is when they're upset and crying. Who wants to see unhappy children? :-(

This issue is a mole hill being made into a mountain. :boring:

[seabeyond]

184. agreed. nt

[hack89]

157. It can spread to my house any time now.

damn kids are driving me crazy - can't wait until school starts.

[elocs]

158. Smart move as long as parents refuse to teach their kids how to behave in public.

That is it, pure and simple

Taking young kids to public places should be an opportunity for parents and adults to teach the kids in their care how to behave in public. Unfortunately too many adults see this as an opportunity to just let the kids run wild.

[Luminous Animal]

182. The problem is, it throws out the good with the bad and that is slow-thinkers solution.

Similarly, Mayor Gavin Newsom removed many public benches because homeless people sleep on them. Now there are few places to sit and rest while sight-seeing or shopping.

He also removed about 25% of the public trash receptacles because some people were using them for their private garbage... two on my block. Now, where there used be a trash receptacle, there is trash.

Shrinking the public sphere, both privately and publicly held, creates small minded people.

[elocs]

207. Believe what you want, I still think it is a smart move. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

213. Well, enjoy your Poppers and Pretzel Sticks with all your other blue haired "fine diners".

Hahahahahahaha!

Fine dining, indeed (snort).

http://www.mcdains.com/9.html

[xmas74]

220. You thought the same as I did

about the menu.

I could get the same crap at an Applebees or TGI Fridays or any other chain, along with my cocktail. The difference is that the crappy chains mentioned are, for the most part, "family friendly".

I saw nothing fancy about the menu that would make me say "Oh, I need to get a babysitter and make a girls night of dining there!" To me the menu made me think of one of the chains listed above.

[Luminous Animal]

221. I think the guy wanted some free publicity.

"It's a movement! For the fine dining crowd! Who don't eat at our restaurant!"

[xmas74]

224. That has to be it.

I googled the restaurant, took one look at the menu, and wondered who the hell decided it was fine dining?

My daughter and I dine at local restaurants that have nicer menus, better prices, yet still welcome children with open arms. From the time she was a baby we've been to places that were not fast food and have always been welcome. She isn't as picky as her fellow classmates because she was exposed to different foods and she has good table manners because she learned how to use them in a public forum.

After reading the crappy menu and the article I know I wouldn't eat at that crap factory even if I lived next door and it was the only place open in town.

[Luminous Animal]

229. Same here. The women at the local Thai restaurant (really - food to die for - I take all out-of-

towners there and they never forget it) used to carry her around when she was a baby. When she became a big giant girl around age 12 (she's 6"1' now), she'd pick them up! Every new food restaurant was and experience and I can see her cute little face settling down and saying, "Now we are going to be fancy with manners and everything." Now that she doesn't go out with us often (slumming it I suppose!) We see wait staff at all our regular places on the street or in stores and they always ask about her. A few are friends with her on Facebook.

The only time she got bored is when we went to restaurants with a crowd of adults dominated by adult conversation. My husband and I simply took turns entertaining her whether in the restaurant or outside on the sidewalk. There is real value in teaching a 3 old how to pitch pennies... especially if you let them win just the right amount of the time.

[xmas74]

242. My daughter learned at an early age how to act in public.

Now the wait staff and owners stop us and and comment about how big she is and ask when we'll be back to eat.

When she was young she always received a bit of extra attention because they were impressed with how she carried herself and how well she used her manners in public. Most of our dining out experiences were just the two of us so it was easy to keep her attention. We usually had discussions about her favorite stories, about the cat down the street, about how pretty the waitress was. (She was obsessed with a young Korean waitress. When she was five she was asked what she wanted to be when she grew up. Her answer? "Korean." That in its own right earned us special service!)

The point is that children need to be exposed to an adult world in small, safe bits as a way to learn how to behave in that world. Dining out is a fantastic opportunity to teach how to act. They learn why it's so important to sit up straight, napkin in lap, elbows off tables, use best manners, etc. The praise she earned from others encouraged her far more than anything I could say.

Taking children to "kids joints" is a shame. They learn how not to act in a proper establishment and they gain no appreciation for decent food. Those same kids will someday be the asshole adults who yell profanities into their cell phones, demand that they get food not on the menu, kick their shoes off under the table and refuse to even put on clean clothes for a nice meal. My child, by dining out in a controlled manner, knows what to do and what not to do. The same cannot be said for children raised on a diet of Chuck E Cheese and McDonalds.

[Luminous Animal]

253. Careful! You might be branded an elitist! ; )

I agree. Teaching her manners began at home and she enjoyed the opportunity to practice them in a restaurant. When she was little we had unspoken prompts for simple things like chewing with her mouth open or talking with her mouth full but other than that all other instruction was left to the home environment. Dinners with her, in fact, were wonderful. And talking about it, and reading your stories, makes me miss that little wonderful thing. I think I need to babysit the neighbor's 5 year old more!

I remember the first time we went to a place with a "kids menu", visiting family out of state, she was so excited when she saw "kids menu" but then she whispered to me, "Mom, there is nothing on here that I want."

[xmas74]

338. I love the elitist comment!

They can label me all they want on a website but if any of them knew me in real life the last thing they'd call me is an elitist. Actually, I'm the "working class" that is mostly looked down on by all sides. I'm a single mother, never married, who is raising a child totally on my own. We're as active as possible in our community and we attend church on Sundays. (That's a big no-no for some here!)

We don't eat out often. For the two of us it's a big treat-something to be celebrated. We save our money and carefully plan where we will eat. We usually eat before the big crowds arrive-sometimes there are specials and it's always easier to get a seat. My child is extremely polite and knows to use her most appropriate manners.

I've noticed over the years we've become more conspicuous in restaurants. Growing up, if we ever ate out people were dressed nice but appropriate for the restaurant. (Church clothes for places that we'd take for granted now-Denny's, Shoney's, Big Boy, etc.-and nicer clothes for nicer restaurants.) We were spotless in appearance and we used our best manners for everyone, from the hostess to the waitress to the bus boy. Nowadays I've noticed people bringing their kids in places in stained sleepers with dirty, tangled hair and sour milk smells everywhere. They yell, they talk on their cell phones so everyone can hear their conversations. The kids are out of control.

Those without kids act worse in my area. They come in, boots caked with mud and trucker caps that have never been washed. They demand the kitchen make things off menu, such as a sauce without onions, mushrooms,and garlic. They use foul language and, from personal experience, are known to stiff the staff. And neither of these groups are working class, fwiw. The local factory workers can't afford to dine out but when they do they are dressed to the nines and their children are exceedingly well-mannered.

The place in the OP, though nothing great, might have been something a working class family would save for and dine at once a year for an important milestone. They would have treated it like an incredible experience and would have spoken of dining there for months-possibly years, depending on the experience and the reason for it. Now not every member can dine there and it's a shame. The little ones often take the greatest pleasure out of dining at the "adult" places and usually are very good.

[tabasco]

170. Good.

Screaming brats and inconsiderate parents bother me.

[fishwax]

176. I rarely find restaurants (or anything else) ruined by misbehaving kids

I've had the airline experience, and certainly it was unpleasant. It's only happened once that I remember, though, and probably wasn't as bad for me as it was for the baby ;) A kid ban at a restaurant certainly wouldn't make me more inclined to go there.

At the same time, though, I think the animosity directed towards people who would support such a restaurant is a bit silly. Wanting to eat a meal without kids doesn't mean that one hates kids.

[Luminous Animal]

209. How much do you want to bet if Brangolena showed up with their brood...

they'd get a seat.

The problem is, it creates a barrier of exclusivity for a problem that rarely exists.

[fishwax]

211. I wouldn't bet either way -- but what do you mean by barrier of exclusivity?

As I said, though, I agree with you that the problem rarely exists--at least in my experience.

[Luminous Animal]

215. Like gated communities. Creating a solution for a problem that rarely exists.

[fishwax]

218. well, I don't see it as like a gated community

or particularly exclusive, necessarily.

But, yeah, I'm surprised people see it as a big problem--still can't think of a time when a misbehaving kid has ruined my meal ...

[Yavin4]

179. The AMC Movie Theaters in NYC Has A New Policy

No kids under 10 are allowed in R-rated movies after 6:00 PM. I think that's a good policy.

[Posteritatis]

275. ... Not allowing them in such movies at all would be a better one. (nt)

[jberryhill]

201. I would only ban them if they are wearing burkas

[bigwillq]

202. It should be left up to the individual owner.

I am all for it (a kids ban).

[FourScore]

206. Stupid. Doens't sound like the kind of place I'd wanna go anyway.

[Luminous Animal]

212. Hahahahahaha! I just looked at the menu at McDain's. It's a fucking crap restaurant.

Poppers and Pretzel Sticks? At a fine dining restaurant?

Yeah. This guy wanted his name in the news.

Fine dining my ass. This guy should be sued for false advertising.

http://www.mcdains.com/9.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

222. Re-read the menu

they are stuffed... not your usual fare in a crap restaurant. I just went though it, and it is middle to upper end... (or better be for those prices)

That said his restaurant...

[Luminous Animal]

232. Stuffed? Stuffed what? Pretzel sticks? My dear Nadin. Stuffed Pretzel Sticks are not fine dining

Stuffed crust pizza didn't used to be usual either but it has nothing to do with fine dining.

[rpannier]

216. I oppose the move

American society has become too divorced from other people, to the point where any disturbance is met with outrage.
Baby crying in church, kick those people out. Loud child in a restaurant kick them out too.

I live in Korea. Most Koreans in big cities take public transportation and so you are forced to deal with other people.
People kids can be loud in restaurants, they run around and, for the most part, people go about their business and are able to tune out the static.
As long as your kids aren't running into other people and physically disturbing them people seem to not care.

People living in America need to get out into the public more and deal with people more -- not less

[Hippo_Tron]

251. Shouldn't the person with the crying baby in church take the baby outside, though?

I agree with you that nobody should be deterred from bringing the baby because god forbid it might cry. But if the baby does cry, I think it's appropriate for the parent to take the baby outside to minimize the disturbance to others. A few seconds of noise interruption during a church service is no big deal. But if the baby is crying for the entire time, then you really can't hear what the preacher is saying.

[rpannier]

254. Yes they should.

I do agree that people with childrenhave an obligation to others to make sure their children are acting appropriately for the benefit of others.
My point is, I think too many people have divorced themselves from dealing with the public at large to the point where people can't stand being interrupted by other people.
When I came to Korea it took a while to get used to the homeless guy on teh subway and the beggar and the guy who hears voices.

[seabeyond]

258. i cannot think of a time a parent didnt walk a crying baby out of restaurant, out of church

out of a store, if they could.

most parents generally think about the other people and this is just another insult to parents with a board of duers acting as if ALL parents are really so god awfully rude

[MedicalAdmin]

399. Who is acting like that?

Am I?

You are acting in exactly the same way you are accusing other of, painting with a big brush.

[seabeyond]

403. no. you are not acting like that. as a matter of fact, very reasoned and i appreciate that

but seeing how you have read thru out the thread (or it seems since i have seen your posts and replied to a couple) surely you are seeing a bet of what i suggested in that post you responded to.

[MedicalAdmin]

424. There is, truly, lots of mud being slung. - cheers - n/t

[Ohio Joe]

226. Good - nt

[JCMach1]

231. So it was okay when boomers had their own brats, but not now...

This one is actually a generational issue about aging America.

[Vanje]

236. No kids allowed....

unless parents can prove upon entrance, that minor male child is uncircumcised.
If minor child is female, parent must be willing to breast feed in public.

[Hippo_Tron]

248. Can't they just use the same policy they do for grown-ups?

Just reserve the right to kick people out if they are disturbing others. Believe it or not, it's not just kids who are obnoxious and loud at the dinner table.

[Posteritatis]

274. As you can see from this thread that would probably inspire an even greater tantrum. (nt)

[robinlynne]

252. It is discirmination, but i would much rather eat at a restaurant without kids, honestly.

That is, if I could afford to go to a restuarant.

[treestar]

255. Kids have never bothered me

I can't imagine people being so sensitive that they are bothered by kids. Kids are cute. I don't get the problem with them.

Of course they cry and scream and shit. But it's cute. They are just kids. We all were kids once. They make me smile no matter what they do.

I have none of my own and never will, maybe that's why I am so tolerant. I have flown, and no kid has ever bothered me. In fact I sat on one flight with a five year old next to me and he was just cute. I have never been bothered by any kid in a restaurant.

[seabeyond]

259. i wonder about the people that seem to attract every single out of control child

into their little world.

i can remember once, raising eyebrows at a bunch of little kids running wild in a grocery store. that has been about it, in a long experience of being in the public amongst kids.

[ScreamingMeemie]

261. For some...

a child breathing is out of control.

[ScreamingMeemie]

256. My question is if they will ban the loud cell phone talkers, the guffawing

with friend-ers etal. This is my only problem with these types of bans. Some kind of obnoxious noise is okay, other kinds are not.

[Pacifist Patriot]

406. That's my take on it.

If the restaurant is really committed to a pleasant dining experience are they prepared to toss the loud-mouth bores, drunken jerks, and cell yell folks when they encounter those types of diners as well?

[Rochester]

260. Good! I hate kids. I support the ban

[L0oniX]

262. +1

[seabeyond]

308. mmmm. sounding like people that "hate" blacks, gays, women, jews, liberals. you know

bigots.

the a whole group of people you dont know.

and you are proud enough of this characteristic of yours to brag about it on du.

how are you any different from other haters?

[DainBramaged]

265. And added to the growing list

Olive Garden, AppleBees, Cigarettes, breastfeeding, circumcision, narwhals, pit bulls, smoking bans, Spitzer, High school bands and soda pop

kids on planes, bombing the moon, tax fast food, Rapture, PETA, screaming kids in restaurants

Vaccinations, Jessie James, Ipads, Michael Vicks, Octomom, unicorns and Charlie Sheen, now the Weiner's gone.

[Lucian]

266. I. Love. This.

Really love it. There's nothing worse than trying to go out on a quiet evening with your girlfriend and having to listen to little Junior Son-of-a-Bitch whining his head off because his mom won't let him have any ice cream. :eyes: :grr:

If I see a restaurant with a "no children allowed" sign, I'm going to go there every chance I get. I can't wait until movie theaters and stores do this.

[TK421]

407. especially movie theaters..stores would probably be difficult

I assume you mean places like Macys or other retail establishments

[Shandris]

269. My only 'problem' with children is actually a problem with their parents.

I'm referring specifically to the ones whose children annoy me most: those who make NO MOVE WHATSOEVER to quiet, calm, or otherwise soothe a screaming child. I don't know if its' a regional thing or what, but around here, a screaming child in a restaurant causes the parents to do nothing more than talk louder. They (as a general tendency, obviously there are exceptions) tend to simply IGNORE the fact that their child has been screaming for 5 straight minutes. The occasional scream or fuss may make me wince (my ears are sensitive, it's an involuntary reaction), but it doesn't bother me until it goes on unabated and with not attempt to correct.

[lynne]

272. LOVE THIS - its an idea that has been too long in coming -

- I have three children, one grandchild and a grandchild on the way. I love all my children BUT I can tell you that - on those few occasions that I've been able to get away alone with my husband - the last thing I wanted to hear was a child fussing, crying, throwing a fit in an upscale restaurant.

Personally, I blame the parents. You don't take tired children to a nice restaurant. Should you insist on doing so, then you need to teach them some basic manners and let them know what is expected of them. Should they misbehave, you need to remove them immediately.

Its a private business and they can refuse to serve those without shoes, without shirts and WITH children, should they wish. They will certainly get my business!!!

[McCamy Taylor]

277. When my son got rowdy, we went outside. People who force their screaming kids on other diners

are just plain rude.

[divvy]

278. I am happy to be free from some children .... and their parents too.

At work, they are consistently late, leave early, demand special child-related benefits, on the phone an hour or two a day with kids, demand a raise because of "all the responsibilities" they shoulder, manage to change every discussion into a chat about their kids, throw their "sick children" in front of themselves if facing a reprimand, and generally assert their superiority through their offspring as often as possible.

This type of parent makes their children (and their problems) EVERYONE ELSE'S PROBLEM.

[Politicalboi]

279. I don't have any kids

But kids don't bother me for the most part. I used to work graveyard, and the kids around the apartment would be yelling and screaming and laughing near my window during the day when I needed to sleep. Believe me, as much as I wanted to ask them to be quiet, it's their summer too. And I thought if I brought attention to my dilemma, they would make more noise. They are just kids, and it's part of life. And parents should HAVE to control their kid, or leave the restaurant instead of prejudging all children. What better way to show your child manners in this day and age.


I only wish we had more choices over cable tiers to have adult content and edited for those who want it. Why should I have to listen to BLEEP! when Jon Stewart says Fuck?

[lunatica]

283. I volunteer with a classical music arts organization

That tells it's patrons not to bring children under 6 to the concerts. There's nothing wrong with this practice. People want to listen to the music, not to kids running up and down the aisles or whining and acting out.

But there's nothing better than kids of all ages at parks and swimming pools and Disneyland. Having kids there is what makes those places really special.

I remember when I was a kid that doing something as verboten as acting out got us into serious trouble. Hell, just getting mouthy with our parents would garner a major punishment. Kids can be disciplines and they can thrive at the same time. And in most cases the problem with children who are screaming is that they're bored and tired and are where they are because their parents are selfishly dragging them to places they don't want to be.

[SmileyRose]

284. There's always the Olive Garden.......

:hide:

[O_a_DEMorDINO]

286. Good Kids need to be banned at more places

Just because you choose, either intentionally or accidentally, to complete a basic biologic function does not mean those who did not make the same choices as you did should have to suffer and or be punished for your decisions. It is already bad enough that those of us who never had kids nor plan on having kids have to supplement your choices of breeding giving you tax breaks and deductions for breeding and for sending them to public school. Why should those of us without kids have to even pay the freight of the breeders to begin with?

There are places for kids and families and there are places for adults. I do not go to family places because I DO NOT want to put up with kids. You may think they are cute but I do not, in fact I do not care about your spawn, their pictures or the latest thing they did. When I go on vacation, I do not want to see or hear kids, I pay extra to avoid them to the maximum extent possible. When I go and drop $350+ for dinner, yes I do and can do that because I don’t have kids, I do not want to see or hear kids. I want to enjoy my meal. If I was at Applebee’s I would expect kids to be there and I would not complain, that is a family place but if I am at say Le Bernardin or Jean Georges I don’t want to see or hear em.

It is bad enough that if I go to the mall or grocery store I have to put up with em, but when a business keeps the kids out they get my business and support.

[nc4bo]

291. Your post is just plain caustic....

There may be some people here that agree with your every word but the terms you use are just so typical for RWers. I apologize if that was not your intent.

Back to OP - I have no problem with kid-free zones. Was just in a Subway yesterday and hubby and I got our food and just began to eat and there's a young child screaming his head off because he was happy, sad, angry, wet/soiled, bored, sick - no sure which adjective fits. It was extremely annoying but hey, it's a Subway so we just tuned out best we could. Sorted felt sorry for the kid but if this were to occur in a high end restaurant, we'd be extremely unhappy and would complain.

[O_a_DEMorDINO]

293. So are you accusing me of being a RWer?

I was under the impressing accusing someone of being a RWer was against the rules?

Certain words are not the exclusive domain of the RWers.

In fact I dislike kids just as much as RWers.

Being liberal or progress does not mean one has to be nice and agree with everyone all the time.

[nc4bo]

311. Umm not at all...

Just the nastiness of the phrases you used like "breeding", the public school reference, etc. is pretty typical for them.

I accused you of nothing more than using their nasty terminology. I then made an apology if that's not what you intended, in that same post.

In fact, I agree with the practice. Kids can be annoying. Those who don't like it don't have to go to these businesses.

You're reading more into my comment than was intended.

[lumberjack_jeff]

351. "In fact I dislike kids just as much as RWers."

Replace "kids" with ANY other noun describing a subset of human beings.

73 recs. "I hate kids" as a badge of progressivism. What a place.

[Bunny]

295. LOL!

[seabeyond]

305. OMG... i saw a kid. make it stop. waaaa. lordy, what a hoot. nt

[Missy Vixen]

335. I tried to respond, but the response got eaten

Let's try this again...

If you've been to Le Bernardin or Jean Georges, I would love to hear about your experiences. We enjoy watching Eric Ripert on "Top Chef Masters". Let's just say we don't have $350 for dinner, but it sounds like a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

If we're in a family restaurant, it's time to suck up and deal. If we're in a fine dining establishment, we saved for that dinner, and I expect wonderful food, tremendous atmosphere, and even better service.

[lumberjack_jeff]

350. Welcome to DU. You'll fit right in. n/t

[krabigirl]

357. Hmmm..so those kids, should they be forced to pay for your ss or Medicare when you are old?

Maybe they shouldn't? No, I don't think that, but sometimes I wonder. Why so much hate in this country?

[WinkyDink]

300. Some parents take time to teach their kids (you'll like this):

[ladyfutura]

301. This is sad, I think.

[KurtNYC]

309. 45 pound child with empty stomach + 20oz caffeine loaded soda = chaos

Bars are responsible for the drinks they serve -- why not restaurants?

Perhaps more restaurants should provide alternatives to rapidly loading their smallest customers up with caffeine and fructose and then demanding that they sit still and behave. It is the equivalent of serving adult customers about 8 cups of coffee before the meal comes.

[seabeyond]

312. lol, just more about the parenting. the refll now. and they dont even ask

my kids (even older) are limited the amount of sodas per week. two 20 oz, lol. so we go to restaurant and they get a treat of soda. they are not allow to fill up before and NO refills. there have been so many times in recent experience telling waitstaff, NO to the refill given to the kids. they are shocked... shocked, that there is a limit to the amount of soda for a kid. it is so bad today, we get a chuckle with the reactions. more waiters tell us they wish more parents had a limit

[gkhouston]

329. Anybody taking a 45 lb kid to a restaurant with an empty stomach is courting disaster, anyway.

We carried Goldfish crackers and Cheerios in the car for years so we wouldn't show up at the grocery store or a restaurant with a starving child. Many adults don't behave well when they're tired or hungry, and that tendency is magnified a hundredfold in children.

[Blasphemer]

313. I generally don't have issues with other people's kids

No matter how unruly they may be, at the end of the day, I don't have to go home with them. Still, I know there are some people who absolutely CANNOT deal with children. It's fine for businesses to cater to them. Family-friendly establishments and adults-only establishments create a win-win for everyone.

[Atman]

314. Not sure my two cents matter at this point, but...

I've got very mixed emotions about this. When my wife and I had our two boys, we were "yuppies." Yes, I admit. We took our kids places, we ate out a lot, and they were with us all the time. But they were GOOD. We taught them boundaries. We went to fine restaurants and took them with us, and they always sat quietly and behaved. We gave them things to do, dammit. Restaurants are no fun for kids...they have to sit for long periods of time doing nothing but waiting. Today, parents will give 'em iPods or hand-held games. We'd just bring a pad of paper and some markers, and the boys would entertain themselves. In fact, we frequently got compliments on our children, how well behaved they were.

Last winter, we went out to eat a restaurant at a ski resort. Our kids don't hang with us much anymore, they're both grown, so they weren't with us. At the next table, though, there were two families dining together. Kids were from about 8 to 13 (so this ban wouldn't have worked). The kids were given their own table, the parents across the aisle. The parents downed cocktails and apps and had a great time, while the kids went rampant, out of control. Chased each other around the restaurant, set stuff on fire in the candle, throwing stuff at each other. The parent never blinked an eye. Not once. Even when the oldest of them, chasing her younger friend, nearly knocked over a server with a tray full of food. The parents didn't care. Our server even apologized to us, offered us a complimentary drink. Why not, instead, talk to the parents and tell them to control their kids? I don't get it.

[geardaddy]

396. +1000

[leftyohiolib]

322. these children you cant stand to be near will one day

be wiping your assess when you cant. they'll be injecting meds into you when your heart (what's left of it) stops beating. they'll be depositing your ss checks when you cant walk or afford a computer. habitat for humanity is full of people's kids. and you want to treat them like lepers because you cant chew your steak with some kid crying. sounds like a bunch of whining crying "adults" to me.

[Volaris]

330. now if we could just ban the screaming children form the Capitol Building,

we would be well on our way to having the kind of Congress we all know we need.....

[divvy]

345. Only a REALLY SHITTY PARENT will abuse others with their children.

Those ass-holes EXPECT others to sacrifice themselves and their evening because they are too CHEAP to hire a baby-sitter.

[LWolf]

348. This ought to be good.

:popcorn:

I don't have a problem with adult-only places of business. I wish I didn't find kids in the bar section of some of my favorite restaurants; the whole point in eating or drinking in the bar, for me, is that it's for adults. It's okay to like some adult-only time.

At the same time, I think MOST places should welcome people of all ages; our young are part of our society, too. Adults who want to have a quiet dinner out with other adults should choose places not set up for families, and families should stick to those places that welcome them. In other words, don't let your kids run loose in the bar.

We depend on parents to be responsible about where they take young children, and how they manage behavior. For instance, recognizing that it's not normal for the very young to be quiet and still for extended periods, and to be ready to take them outside when they need something.

Or, perhaps, recognizing that a 130 minute film in a movie theater might not be the best place for a baby. There was a crying infant two rows back when I took my grandson to the final HP movie a couple of weeks ago; besides the irritating disruption of the crying, I felt sorry for the baby, surrounded by the big sound system in the dark.

[krabigirl]

355. Pretty sad how Americans can't tolerate anything really. Honestly, I don't care about the bans, but.

I don't like how we have to rush to "ban" anyone or anything that makes us a bit uncomfortable. And, at the same time, adults are treated like kids in this society.

As a parent of little ones, I don't take them to nice restaurants, or even very many restaurants, but when I hear another kid crying, I really don't care.

[seabeyond]

356. i am with you krabi... and i no longer have little ones so really is a non issue for me

but i feel the same as you. and like i would speak out for any group so unfairly accused, i do with kids.

[krabigirl]

361. Thanks..it is pretty sad, really.

[marions ghost]

376. You have a point

but so do those who say they DO mind out-of-control kids in public places. (Nobody's talking about a squawk or two, it's about the serious meltdowns).

The point that you are making about the rush to ban uncomfortable things I do think is a part of our culture. So (theory) could this be why some parents think that they should be permissive with their kids, in other words, to fight this general trend, ie. to give their children a sense of freedom that they themselves don't feel? If so, it's misguided and it won't work. Living through your kids never works. Because it's too narrow in focus. Even under the guise of protecting them.

But there is truth in what you say about the tendency to sweep everything difficult under the rug.
Look at the way our news media does that, while at the same time "exposing" only what they want to. I could give many other examples. And maybe that sort of stress contributes to the problem.

Still doesn't mean kids should rule.

[sendero]

358. Having raised two kids..

.... both of who could be pretty bratty at times when we went out, I have ZERO problem with this.

Don't like it? Don't eat there.

Calling something like this "bigotry" is LAUGHABLE.

[glinda]

377. Husband & I like quiet when we go out and not kids screaming. Parents should just take them outside.

Don't see a reason to ban well behaved children personally.

[Marrah_G]

379. I think it is selfish to take your child to a resaurant not geared towards children

I managed to raise three kids without taking them into places that were clearly for adults.

In the end the kids appreciate it and the other patrons appreciate it.

To those who say it stops children from learning to behave in public place........when they were 6,7 and 9 they flew with me to FL to visit my parents. All the people on the plane commented on how great they were.

[bigwillq]

381. There should just be a nationwide ban

on breeders! :P

[notadmblnd]

390. If I want a nice quiet meal, I stay home

or call for carry out. Even the most upscale restaurants do carry out so there's no excuse for anyone's dinner to be ruined by anyone.

[Hepburn]

391. I wear hearing aids and until...

...you have had the "pleasure" of non-stop toddler screaming next to one's ears, don't talk to me about children's rights. I have the right to NOT have my ears blown off when I am in public because a parent or grandparent will not remove the offender. It's not about what is best for the child with that person ~~ it's about continuing to do what they wish to do regardless of the problems caused to others.

It's not the child's fault ~~ particularly if an infant or a small toddler. It's the fault of the person who will not and who does not consider that others do not wish to be exposed to the relentless high-pitched noise. I most certainly would patronize any restaurant which restricted its patronage to those who did not scream non-stop ~~ whatever age involved.

[felix_numinous]

397. How about just banning rudeness

and rewarding good behavior regardless of age!! There are too many beautiful kids in the world, and too many adult jerks :)

Peace~

[JoeyT]

400. Oh no! Society is refusing to acknowledge that my special snowflake is the center of the universe!

Bigotry! Oppression! This is just like when (insert ethnic or cultural group here) saw systemic oppression from (insert oppressor here)!

No one cares about your kids, that's your job, not ours. If I wanted to deal with loud children I'd have had some, at least then I'd be able to tell them to be quiet. Instead asking the parents if they could maybe calm their kid down a bit ends in the parents pitching a full bore fit because how DARE someone tell them how to raise their children. The idea that no one wants to sit next to their precious little air raid siren doesn't even cross their minds. All asking politely does is add to the noise because now the parents are screaming too.

These places are catering to people like me. Perhaps you can visit one of the other 99.99% of restaurants that cater to you. Having less than 1/100th of 1 percent of the businesses cater to what's probably 25% of the population doesn't warrant comparing yourself to the Jim Crow south. It really doesn't. It just means society isn't fetishizing child rearing as much. Less privilege for a privileged group doesn't equal oppression.

Don't blame the people that are sick of the loud kids. We're voting with our wallets. Do the same with yours, but don't expect everyone to follow your lead. I bet the places that ban kids will be mighty popular with parents that go out without their kids and want a night of peace to enjoy it. They don't want to hear it any more than we do.

[AnnaLee]

409. I get so mad at parents when they are making their children screech

I have noticed two things that parents do that makes me feel so sorry for their kids.

The first is selfish. Often I see parents come into a restaurant after a long shopping trip or similar. The children are exhausted and cranky. They have already been captive doing what the parent(s) wanted to do all day. You can see the "when do we get to go home" look in their eyes and body language. They don't want to sit still at a table. Crawl in the kid's head for a moment and ask why they are not well behaved.

The second thing is that the parent just won't leave the kid alone. They are picking and picking at them. And the children are screeching and trying to get away from it. The parent won't let the kid even eat in peace but are constantly interfering trying to get them to try something or eat something they don't want. The resulting screeches sound like a plea just be left alone for awhile.

[alphafemale]

415. They could just refuse to have highchairs, booster seats, kiddie menu, crayons

That sort of thing.

My kids were well behaved in restaurants from a young age, but I have no problem with this. It's certainly not bigotry.

And the suggestion that people be asked to "leave" once there is an obvious problem is unrealistic. Once their is an order for possibly 4 to 6 meals in the works that would be a big loss for the restaurant to swallow. They obviously aren't paying for the meal if they're kicked out even if they've already finished eating and are considering dessert.

This restaurant obviously believes they will make more people happy with this than unhappy. And there is probably a huge market for people who want to go out to a place without small children.

I would imagine a sizable number of the customers may even be parents of small children who've left their kids with a sitter to go out for the night.

Man. The last thing you want to happen is for a crying baby to kick in your let down reflect and ruin your best dress. :P