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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:09 AM
Original message
14th Amendment: Section 4.
14th Amendment: Section 4. "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. ..."

So if Congress refuses to deal with our National Debt, is it Treason? I think the US Constitution is pretty clear that addressing our debt is their responsibility. If we incur more debt to our deficit - some say as initially this will cost us $100 Billion, do we hold the members of Congress responsible?

I suggest that if Wisconsin can recall it's state representatives, the American people should start to consider that an option too at the Federal level.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's right there. . . . Simply Put, . . . uncontestable. .
Or so the Founding Fathers thought.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Recalling them is the next option.
Fortunately our Founding Fathers also knew that power corrupts.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. and yet our founding fathers didn't include a provision for recall in the Constitution
Because they also knew that the whims of the electorate can change on a dime and that constant recalls would be destructive. Indeed, our founding fathers insulated both the election of the President and the election of the Senate from the whims of the electorate and further provided for the appointment, rather than election, of judges.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Thank you again...
Edited on Wed Jul-27-11 08:11 AM by rosesaylavee
http://www.senate.gov/CRSReports/crs-publish.cfm?pid=\'... *PL%5B%3A%230%20%20%0A
Recall of Legislators and the Removal of Members of Congress from Office (if link doesn't work - search 'Recall of Legislators' for online pdf at http://www.senate.gov / )


However, if there is sufficient evidence that comes to light, the Senate and House both have proceedings to remove members.

From the summary at link:
"While there are no specific grounds for an expulsion expressed in the Constitution, expulsion
actions in both the House and the Senate have generally concerned cases of perceived disloyalty
to the United States..."
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Of course, there is no way the Democrats in the House can expel any repubs
so you can forget about that option. Indeed, urging its use simply encourages the tyranny of the majority.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. So our only recourse then is to continue to write letters
and wave signs? I don't see that as having an effect long term.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. work to vote out the tea partiers in 2012
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Already on my 'to do' list
Starting my district rep.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Founding Fathers???? The 14th amendment was passed in 1868.
n/t
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Does this add to the discussion?
Who the fuck cares what word is used here? The point is that those who created our Constitution as we now know it would be appalled. They thought this would have been handled.
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Llewlladdwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. I believe it demonstrates that you don't know what you're talking about.
Failure to understand that the 14th Amendment wasn't part of the original Constitution is kind of a big deal when one is discussing said Constitution and Amendment.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Well duh.
I think it demonstrates you didn't understand what I wrote.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. ROFL
:thumbsup:

I'm glad you said it so I didn't have to.

Was the 26th Amendment also passed by "our Founding Fathers?"

:rofl:
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. Well I'm certain the Supreme Court could rule on this and settle it .
I'm equally certain that the Founding Fathers notwithstanding, nobody here would be happy with its ruling.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. Naw, they'd give the prez the power to save the entire stinking country.
The Supremes are all about power shifts in this country.
And they know that although Congress may not like it this time, they can pass another amendment and try to change it later.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
32. Okay, now I'm in love with you.
"Or so the Founding Fathers thought."

You're cuter than a little kitten.

This is not a sex thread.
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badtoworse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. Sorry, but you're reading too much into it.
There is nothing in the amendment that requires the government to borrow money to pay the debts identified. The debt can be paid by spending less money elsewhere. What it says to me is that those debts have first call on available cash.

In our present situation, it means the government will have to defer some spending, reduce services and state aid, close parks, etc., and furlough non-essential employees, if necessary to pay the debt.

I haven't heard anyone say the debt won't be serviced.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Ok. But
what about incurring debt by NOT addressing it in a timely fashion. I think incurring $100 Billion+ over a political ploy is treasonous.
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badtoworse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. At the very least, it's grossly negligent.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. And as we don't realize as of today
what next week will bring IF they really do not raise the debt ceiling, and the global economy is thrown into a spriraling downward mess... we as a nation will need to consider some kind of action to address the inaction of those we have elected to represent us.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
6. Since you have a copy of the Constitution, look at Article III, Sec 3
No, its not treason. Its bad policy.

And as far as recall elections go, be careful what you ask for.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Thank you
I see the perameters now for Treason. So unless we get some documentation that Grover Norquist and others are attempting to undermine our global economy, we will need to use other means.

And yes, I understand what recall elections would do. There may be no other recourse here shortly the way I am seeing it.
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piratefish08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
13. Not an option. President Obama made that clear.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I respect the President
but he is not us. We elected these people. We will have to find a way to address their inaction if it comes to it.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Yes, and likely all of these people were elected without thousands of us bothering to vote,
but we sure don't like the results of our inaction.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Agreed.
That is a large part of the problem. Saw a video of your state's Voter ID in action yesterday. Makes me all the more motivated to fight these people.
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alc Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
23. Obama must pay public debt (no default) and pensions
We have more than enough revenue each month for that. It looks to me like the 14th says Obama can shut down every government program and fire every federal employee, but he has to pay public debt (the SS trust fund is not public debt so screw it if necessary). repubs will probably try to argue that all the wars are suppressing insurrection by keeping the wars "over there", but I'd guess those can be shut down before defaulting on public debt.

I can actually see an argument that raising the debt ceiling without significant cuts or revenue increases is NOT an option because it could put us in violation of the 14th amendment in 10-20 year.
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melm00se Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
24. I'll call your 14th Amendment, sec 4 and raise
you Article I, section 8, paragraphs 1 & 2.

If the Executive Branch continues to spend money that the government does not have, that is de facto borrowing of money (paragraph 2) and/or raising of revenue (paragraph 1). Both of these functions are explicit Congressional powers and the President would be overstepping his authority and that will bring in the USSC to resolve this dispute.

based upon my reading of Article I and the 14th Amendment, one explicitly empowers the Legislative Branch with a power and the other one does not specifically empower a branch of government.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Tell that to every President we have had
in my life time then. We have always spent more than we have. We have had a deficit for a very long time. During the Bush II years, the debt ceiling was raised 7 times and during Reagan's time, over 12 times. This is a procedure that is fairly common order of business and it is the CHOICE of the current GOP lead House that is making this crisis.

If the GOP breaks this economy, their party will not recover from the fallout.
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Um, remember who you're dealing with. The 'Murkin public won't do shit
to the Rethugs.

The pols will lie lie lie and the M$M will spin spin spin and Jane and Joe six pack will just have to suck it up and make greater sacrifices in the name of Freedom(tm) Their kids will have to go to community college and pay 15% interest on their loans. Granny had lived a good long life. Who cares if the Medicare cuts shortened her life by 5-10 years. And hell, dad's a tough guy, he can work till he's 72, right?

:sarcasm:
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I think somehow this will be different.
This will cut very very deep and services that millions count on will no longer be there. People will take to the streets and we will have a tide of anger that will take a lot to overcome.

I don't think the GOP has any idea what they are unleashing. Or maybe I pray that they are that stupid as if this goes forward, it may take everything we have as a country to get ourselves back on track.
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. I hope you are right. People need to be in the streets using the only voice we have left.
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melm00se Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. the point is that
Congress raised the debt ceiling. if Congress declines to do so and the President tries to end run that and tries to use the 14th Amendment as place to sit, that chair may very well be pulled out from under him.
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Sportsguy Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
26. K & R!
"I suggest that if Wisconsin can recall it's state representatives, the American people should start to consider that an option too at the Federal level. "

Exactly. :patriot:
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Llewlladdwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. How would this be accomplished?
I'm interested to see what you think the mechanism for such an action would be.
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MadinMo Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
27. K&R
Edited on Wed Jul-27-11 09:40 AM by MadinMo
"I suggest that if Wisconsin can recall it's state representatives, the American people should start to consider that an option too at the Federal level. "

Double exactly!!
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
30. Keith was talking about this the other day, and it looks like it may be the final solution
Since this has never been done before, Obama will have to save the country ALL BY HIMSELF!!!!!!

And if you don't think he will get re-elected then, well, think again.
Yo ho.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Obama doesn't have the nerve
otherwise this stroke would be perfect.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
35. I'm pretty sure Bill Clinton would have pulled this
He was too far right on some things, but he knew who the real enemy was, and knew how to deal with them.
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