Difference between a German capitalist and a US capitalist.?

[wurzel]

A few months ago a German manufacturer was being interviewed on one of our cable business programs. He was obviously very wealthy so the interviewer kept on about all the taxes he was paying in Germany. The guy just didn't seem interested in talking about it, but the interviewer would not let it go. Finally the German said. "I just don't care about the taxes I pay". The interviewer was speechless for a few seconds and then blurted out, "But why don't you care"? The German thought for a couple of seconds and replied. "Because I don't want to be a rich man living in a poor country".

[Tumbulu]

1. wow (nt)

[femrap]

35. What you said! nt

[Raksha]

99. Wow! That was my first reaction after I read the OP.

[Cal Carpenter]

2. The Germans throw more crumbs at the masses in their own country

but that's about it.

[pampango]

14. Crumbs? Germany has about the most equitable distribution of income on the planet...

Sweden, Norway and a few other European countries beat them. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incom... )

"Germans, with their powerful unions, rarely go on strikes because they have a real voice in their employment. They have an economic model with more bottom-up worker control than that of any other country in the world. Social democracy may let us live nicer lives; it also may be the only way to be globally competitive. The German model, contrary to popular neoliberal wisdom, may thrive well into the twenty-first century without compromising its citizens' ease of living — and be the best example for the United States to follow."

"OK, some facts about Germany, the largest economy by far in the European Union and the fourth largest in the world, measured by gross domestic product per person (GDP), with a thriving export-oriented manufacturing sector -- like the kind we used to have when we manufactured goods that were desired around the world."

"Germany, with 83 million people and few natural resources, is the world's second largest exporter, with $1.170 trillion exported in 2009. You know who is the largest exporter and it ain't us. (Hint: It begins with C and ends in A. and has more than 1.3 billion residents-15 times the population of Germany.) Germany's service sector contributes about 70 percent of the total GDP of Germany, with industry another 29.1 percent and agriculture less than 1 percent. Most of the country's exports are in engineering, automobiles, machinery, metals and chemicals. Germany is the world's leading producer of wind turbines and solar power technology."

"The average number of paid vacation days in the U.S. is 13, compared with Germany’s 35. New mothers in the U.S. get three months of unpaid job-protected leave and only if they work for a company of 50 or more employees, while Germany mandates four months’ paid leave and will pay parents 67% of their salary to stay home for up to 14 months to care for a newborn. U.S. life expectancy is 50th in the world, compared to Germany’s 32nd."

http://www.huntingtonnews.net/columns/100807-kinchen-co...

[Cal Carpenter]

15. In their own country, yes

However their corporations' influence globally and their domination of the EMU speak to the reality of capitalism and it's global effects.

I stand by what I said. They take care of their own people a hell of a lot better than most, no question. But their wealth comes from the global capitalist economy and it ain't as pretty as we like to think. The grass is greener and all that.

Workers of the world unite!

[kenfrequed]

45. err...

Germany is about the best we can expect in the current paradigm. I think what you are looking for is actual socialism and whether or not that is a good idea it doesn't seem terribly likely.

[Cal Carpenter]

92. Well

I agree with you that Germany is about the best we can expect in the current paradigm. But even there, benefits and services and workers rights are being chipped away, and throughout much of Europe (to whom Germany's economy is deeply tied at this point) the buzzword-du-jour is 'Austerity'. Worker's rights and taxpayer benefits are shrinking in Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, the UK... Yet the rich get richer and richer and...

And it is inevitable, and it is unstoppable. The thing about the current paradigm is that the wealth and power will continue to concentrate. There is no stopping it. It ain't gonna get better from here.

And the benefits that the Germans and some other Europeans have - people fought hard for those. They fought and died. Even in America, with the New Deal for example - that wasn't some generous gift from politicians and the wealthy to make America a better place - people fought and died for those concessions we got then, and what has happened since? They're all gone.

That's how the current paradigm works. It has nothing to do with socialism - it's the inevitable result of capitalism. Looking at capitalism objectively - both as a theory and how it has played out in reality - the conclusions above have nothing to do with socialism or what I'm 'looking for'.

I just think if we can't look at it objectively then we'll never get anywhere, and I get frustrated with this notion of a kinder gentler capitalism. It is what it is.

[maryf]

107. +1 (more worker)

[Deep13]

68. +1

[HillbillyBob]

81. ZERO paid days off for most of us.

ZERO benefits for most of us. Shit I had to fight just to get paid for the work i did half the time.

[liberation]

51. Uh?

for reals

[cyberswede]

3. Excellent response!

"Because I don't want to be a rich man living in a poor country."

[moondust]

4. American capitalists will carefully step over the bodies. n/t

[Demeter]

6. In a few short years, American Capitalists Will BE the Bodies

if they don't mend their evil ways, the population will revolt.

[Wednesdays]

22. The population may, at that.

Just as soon as they find the remote to switch off Dancing with the Stars.

[Deep13]

69. The population has to run out of scape-goats first. nt

[Beavker]

76. But the Righty, Tea Baggers are brain washed

into thinking that we need to take care of the rich, so they will take care of us.

Even my Mom, who isn't political, basically sees it this way.

We discussed Oregon's Tax the Rich bill that passed recently, and how she didn't want to vote for it because guys like Phil Knight threatened to leave the state if it passed. It blew my mind that people that mock the uber rich, and wouldn't hesitate to bag on the rich owner, boss or CEO, would then say this.

My reply was basically: Screw Phil Knight, go ahead and leave. Also, that's exactly what they want you to think.

[jwirr]

84. Once upon a time ---- she would have been right. When they paid

their share of the taxes. Many do not have to pay taxes.

[Chisox08]

8. No they won't step over the bodies

They will have someone working for min. wage move them out of their way.

[baldguy]

33. Minimum wage? What's that?

A few more years with the GOP in power, that'll go the way of labor unions and the single-family home ownership.

[Selatius]

43. Or toss the dead bodies into mass graves, which will then be torched. Or, they could use ovens nt

[redirish28]

5. That's the problem with EUROPEAN SOCIALISM THEY CARE ABOUT EACH OTHER AND NOT LIKE REAL AMERICAN

CAPITALISM that cares only for the CEO's bottom line.

[gmoney]

7. Yes, a part of SOCIALISM is that it recognizes the need for SOCIETY

A safe, thriving society is important and makes life better for everyone.

Like when Jim Hightower says "When everybody does better, everybody does better."

[devilgrrl]

11. Another difference between Europeans and Americans are that they aren't obsessed with STUFF

They couldn't care less about owning a home or having a car, etc... they rather see the world.

[rucky]

74. That's a problem I'd like to have.

[pnorman]

DAMN! I just hit the un-recommend button by mistake!

Someone here, PLEASE cancel out my fuck-up!

"Because I don't want to be a rich man living in a poor country." PRICELESS!

[mwooldri]

13. done... recommended, wish I could mash it many times. nt

[thereismore]

9. An amazing response! nt

[devilgrrl]

10. This is what I was trying to point out on DU when I visited Germany this past summer

Yeah, they pay high taxes and their nation is better off for it. I'd like to see more of that here.

[Mojorabbit]

18. I was there a couple of years ago

It was the cleanest country I have ever been in. Lovely place.

[Blue_Tires]

12. the workforce is also unionized as well...

[Selatius]

27. The law in Germany REQUIRES large companies to give workers a say in the decision-making process.

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination#German_Mi...

[femrap]

36. I believe many of these

policies were instituted after WW2...they wanted a more equal society so a dictator couldn't take control again.

[bongbong]

40. Details in Mike's movie

Watch "Capitalism: A Love Story" for details on another forgotten piece of history. FDR wanted a 2nd Bill Of Rights, but he died too soon to see it in the USA. But it got into the new Constitutions of Germany & Japan.

Amazing - REALLY amazing when you think about it. Real Democracy, designed in America by FDR, could not happen in America, but it could in former fascist countries. Probably the irony of the century.

[femrap]

66. Maybe that's what we are

witnessing now....our Fascist State. It, too, will go bust and maybe a state of Cooperation will prevail.

I feel as if our nation is in decline...and economically we're teetering at the abyss.

[Selatius]

41. It was also borne out of a backlash against right wing and far right wing economic policy.

Nothing could neuter the power of right wing industrialists in Germany better than to impose a requirement that their power must now be shared between themselves and the workers they command.

[kenfrequed]

46. Excellent point.

I sincerely hope we don't have to follow the same path to neuter our own right wing industrialists, though the indications are that they want to go further and further to the corporate right.

[femrap]

67. May our nation's

citizens step up to stop these insane economic policies.

Only matter of time....

[fascisthunter]

93. .

[Blue_Tires]

108. thanks for this...

[Scruffy1]

16. All I can say is wow.

[eallen]

17. That notion is common in Europe. And not uncommon here. It's the wingnuts who object.

Which is not synonymous with "the rich."

[whathehell]

25. Agreed....Recently, my spouse and I were

being "solicited" as it were, by people trying to sell the idea of a central or south america retirement.

Our response (although we're by no means "rich") was the same as the German businessman's.

[Hannah Bell]

19. People on this thread seem to think Germany is utopia. You'd never know that Germany has an ongoing

austerity program & has been cutting back on their welfare state for some time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_Hartz_IV_...



Angela Merkel put on a brave face when she announced the biggest round of spending cuts since World War II on Monday afternoon.

The savings include controversial cuts to welfare payments for the long-term unemployed and reductions in parental allowance for families.

Under the plan, 10,000 civil servants working for federal ministries would lose their jobs; 40,000 jobs would be cut in the armed forces; there would be a new "ecological levy" on air travel; a tax would be imposed on the nuclear power industry; and, from 2012 on, there would be a tax on financial transactions...

"We've lived beyond our means over the past few years," Guido Westerwelle, Vice Chancellor and leader of Merkel's coalition partners, the Free Democratic Party (FDP), bluntly told a news conference on Monday.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1995113,0...

[hobbit709]

24. Even with the cuts they still do a 100 times what we do for our people.

[Hannah Bell]

100. The cuts are ongoing.

The Agenda 2010 is a series of reforms planned and executed by the German government which are aimed at reforming the German social system and labour market. The declared aim of Agenda 2010 is to improve economic growth and thus reduce unemployment.

On March 14, 2003 Chancellor Gerhard Schröder gave a speech before the German Bundestag outlining the proposed plans for reform. He pointed out three main areas which the agenda would focus on: the economy, the system of social security, and Germany's position on the world market.

The steps to be taken include tax cuts (such as a 25% reduction in the basic rate of income tax) as well as big cuts in the cost absorption for medical treatment and drastic cuts in pension benefits and in unemployment benefits alike. In that, the programme closely resembles similar measures taken earlier in the USA (Reaganomics) and the UK (Thatcherism). Those measures are also being proposed in accordance with the market liberal approach of the EU's Lisbon Strategy. The name Agenda 2010 itself is a reference to the Lisbon Strategy's 2010 deadline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_2010

More introduced recently because of the economic crisis.

Plus Germany is the main entity pushing austerity on Greece, Spain, etc.

[Pacifist Patriot]

29. I've lived there, and while you are absolutely correct, it's not Utopia...

I'd still move back in a heartbeat. Of course, I'd also move back to England in a heartbeat and they're experiencing economic woes as well. Student riots anyone?

[and-justice-for-all]

47. Adjustments are forever ongoing with an ever increasing population..

and nothing will ever be perfect, but when you compare it to what the states lack and on many levels; Deutschland has their shit in order and their priorities straight. Since they are not empire building, they can afford to do things that the states can't.

[liberation]

52. That correlation is not necessarily correct...

... with growing populations also come growing tax revenues.

[and-justice-for-all]

55. Yes, but at some point it wll become economical impossible..

or nearly impossible to sustain everyone, because of the contiunation of population growth; which is at the center of all of our issues.

[liberation]

56. Yes, but that is a whole different thing

Current cuts on social services/spending have nothing to do with population growth.

[kestrel91316]

63. Population "growth" is ultimately unsustainable and therefore should never

be the means by which we supposedly better ourselves and our society.

[and-justice-for-all]

103. "Population "growth" is ultimately unsustainable", not hardly

fixed resources + ever increasing population = catastrophe.

[Hannah Bell]

85. german capital isn't empire building? german capital occupies roughly

the same position in the eu as us capital does in the nafta alliance.

[and-justice-for-all]

104. german capital isn't empire building? no..

I would not call that empire building, I do not see Germany occupying souverign countries as the US dose.

[Hannah Bell]

105. german capital occupies plenty of countries. it's german banks dictating austerity for a lot of the

world.

and the us acts as policeman for the capitalist bloc as well as for itself.

[Hannah Bell]

86. germany's population growth has been essentially flat since the 90s.

and the biggest drivers of growth before that were 1) reunification with eastern europe & 2) immigration.




austerity is not dictated by population growth, but by growth of the financial class.

[mrdmk]

80. Germany has had to make a lot of adjustments since the merger of the east and west

There was a lot of crap about the two countries merging again as one. To much power in one area, there will be War War Three, Europe will not stand a chance, Russia will not stand a chance, blah blah blah! So for the most part, West Germany had to take on the owes of East Germany without any help from the rest of the world. It is/was quite a feat, and there are still issues being dealt with to this day. One needs to remember that East Germany had on of the most repressive governments in the world, not to mention one of the most non-productive too!

[fascisthunter]

94. yup... as the right wing did here, they too are trying there

[Puregonzo1188]

96. Thank you. European Welfare states are undergoing a lot of trouble right now.

In a lot of those countries, the so-called "socialist" or "social democrats" are the leading spokespeople for neoliberal policies.

[progressoid]

20. Yeah, but we won WWII!!11!

So there.

[whathehell]

23. Yeah, but

You wouldn't want to think about what Germany (not to mention the rest of the world) would have been like if we had not.


I take the OP's point and heartily agree with the German businessman.


That being said, you may want to consider that Germany had it's date with fascism...Let's hope ours is still in flirtation mode.

[liberation]

53. I think you missed the wedding...

... nobody got the invites, but it does not mean it didn't happen

[whathehell]

98. I think you missed

..your ass.

[geardaddy]

82. Yeah! We saved their ass in WWII!

oh wait.

[whathehell]

97. Right...

that was the rest of Western Europe.

[delightfulstar]

21. In Germany, you get what you pay for (in taxes)...

Good infrastructure, solid health care, and even distribution of assets.

Unlike here in the States, where the super-rich run the whole damn thing, and the rest of us are run ragged.

If everyone contributes a little extra, and it's managed correctly, it goes a long way.

[Cid_B]

26. It ain't all sunshine and roses...

Cuts are coming for a population that has gotten used to being supported from cradle to grave.

[liberation]

54. Cuts may be coming...

... but they have nothing to do with the fact that people expect their taxes to be used for the common social good.

[Cid_B]

89. Some do and some don't...

Are we claiming that this guy in one article is a statistically valid sample? That's like if someone saw a piece on Michael Moore and assumed that is how all American's are.

Some Germans are happy with massive social spending and some aren't...

[OnionPatch]

28. They get it over there.

The American attitude regarding capitalism is immoral. Plain and simple. Things will never change here until people here get that. But then I wonder if they have blowhards filling the German airwaves, telling everyone it's ok for the rich and privileged to hoard their wealth and scrimp and cheat everyone else and that if you aren't rich, you're simply lazy. I'm sure they have those types but I'm guessing they aren't as "mainstream" as they are here.

[DirkGently]

30. Bingo. This is what the American School of the wealthy don't understand.

[Cal Carpenter]

31. It never ceases to amaze me how a little friendly rhetoric is all it takes

Seriously. Capitalism is what it is. Where does Germany's wealth come from? This guy is pleased that his country has a lot of wealth, but there is no consideration by him or most of the people on this thread that their wealth still comes from exploiting the land, labor, and human rights of other people.

So friendly nationalistic capitalism is fine and dandy, as long as we don't worry our pretty little minds with what happens around the rest of the globe. As long as the inequality, poverty, environmental destruction,
etc isn't in my neighborhood then it's like it doesn't even fucking exist.

Charming.

[dbmk]

77. Impressive!

Do you apply that kind of reasoning to every little piece of information you recieve?

"Dad, I got an A!" - "As if that matters when there are kids dying from starvation each day in Africa!"
"I got cured of cancer" - "Who cares, there are people drowning in Pakistan!"

[Cal Carpenter]

90. There is a direct connection

between wealthy nations, their corporations (and military in many cases), and the damage and injustice caused by those corporations (and military in many cases) around the world.

It may not bother you, that's fine with me, but don't act like connecting those dots is some non sequitur. It's reality.

[JoseGaspar]

101. It is a testimonial to political powerlessness...

The future is bleak, the Republicans want your ass, the Democrats refuse to do shit, and everyone else is a flake, while the system itself appears unmovable.

It is no wonder that people hang their hat on all kinds of fantasies: miraculous enlightenment suddenly sprouting among capitalists, a policy decision to suddenly become Social Democratic - "just like Sweden", a cataclysmic collapse of the "system" all on its own... even the Tea Party mantra: "Give the fuckers what they want and maybe they will give us a job."

To be truthful, a variation on the same fix is in in Germany. Nothing like the same level of social resistance characteristic of Southern Europe exists there, despite an "austerity" program that in many ways delves deeper.

All of these illusions will eventually fade away... but not quickly and not painlessly.

Meanwhile, friendly nationalistic capitalism is fully capable of once again dressing us up in uniform and sending us out against equally friendly nationalistic capitalists.

[Starry Messenger]

32. One speaks German.

Who is this mystery man anyway?

[Bgno64]

34. Anyone have a link???

Would love to blog this but don't want to go on remembered anecdote alone

[Mira]

37. YESYESYES Yes Yes yesyesyes y e s

[mnhtnbb]

38. Youngest son did summer study in Berlin this year--a German major--

and he wants to live for a year in Germany before starting work on a Ph.D.
in German to become a college professor. We're all for it; I hope he can
make the connections to eventually be able to live in Germany.

[Karenina]

109. I hold your son next to my heart.

Next time he comes here, do urge him to contact his Tante K. Please PM if he is prepared for that possibility in the immediate future or if he is just interested in communicating about academia and emigration.

[valerief]

39. LOVE that line. "I don't want to be a rich man living a poor country." nt

[and-justice-for-all]

42. "Because I don't want to be a rich man living in a poor country".

[KansDem]

44. Jawohl!

Er ist ein guter Mann!

[AllyCat]

48. Why do so many Americans not care about anyone but themselves?

Many think they will be the next "rich guy" and screw everyone else. We are all so "Christian" you know.

[stevenleser]

60. Conservative politicians and media have convinced them that theirs is the right way to help the poor

as well. The average Repug voter has bought the whole supply side/trickle down/laffer curve BS hook line and sinker. It's magical thinking like almost all Repug/conservative ideology.

[Populist_Prole]

75. Bingo

I see that attitude in others I know and am amazed...no, flabbergasted, at how some otherwise reasonably intelligent sorts never think the "every man for himself" mantra through enough to see it will eventually effect even them. The most prevalent, and surprising ( we're talking about working class folks here ) attitude is of basically ( in so many words ) that everybody else ( except them ) should be payed less, so that their own money will go further.

And yes, many of them are overtly Christian.

< Scratches head >

[harun]

79. It comes down to:

A) The happiness of my neighbor influences my own happiness

or

B) The happiness of my neighbor has no influence on my own happiness


Choice A) is not encouraged in the U.S. Choice B) is promoted by schools, business and the Corporate Media non-stop.

[stevenleser]

49. Recently found out I am entitled to dual US/German citizenship. I've been debating on whether to do

it. I decided to go ahead. Putting in paperwork on Monday.

[Moostache]

50. Those who retort that Germany is not perfect or a utopia are full of FAIL.

The thought process and general understanding of what taxes are for is THE difference. The rich German not resenting taxes and acting put upon to support his country is the message of value here. Americans have spent the last 30 years constantly hearing the yammering heads of the right drone on and on and on about how horrible taxes are and how the answer to every problem imaginable is to cut taxes and yet for all of that bluster and all of those tax cuts, the results are abysmal.

If taxes were really bad and all government really horrible, then the USA should be far and away the greatest country on earth in ALL measurable categories. We are not now and have been free-falling our way down the lists ever since Reagan and his cronies started the process of robbing the country and the globe of resources to enrich only themselves.

[stevenleser]

59. Exactly, extremely well said. n/t

[immoderate]

71. Yes. Germany may have problems, but they have the right attitude to correct them.

They are civilized.

--imm

[fascisthunter]

57. because he has a conscience and brains

people who want to live with poverty are stupid, selfish and heartless.

[happygoluckytoyou]

58. EXACTLY.... toooooo very exactly..... BUSH was pres of a FAILING POWER... big f;ing deal!!!

[OnyxCollie]

61. We knew what was best for Germany.

Too bad our country can't follow it's own good advice.

Article 9
Freedom of association

(1) All Germans shall have the right to form corporations and other associations.
(2) Associations whose aims or activities contravene the criminal laws, or that are directed against the constitutional order or the concept of international understanding, shall be prohibited.
(3) The right to form associations to safeguard and improve working and economic conditions shall be guaranteed to every individual and to every occupation or profession. Agreements that restrict or seek to impair this right shall be null and void; measures directed to this end shall be unlawful. Measures taken pursuant to Article 12a, to para- graphs (2) and (3) of Article 35, to paragraph (4) of Article 87a, or to Article 91 may not be directed against industrial disputes engaged in by associations within the meaning of the first sentence of this paragraph in order to safeguard and improve working and economic conditions.

[kestrel91316]

62. [phone] 000

"....I don't want to be a rich man living in a poor country...." - nor should ANYONE of wealth.

[Horse with no Name]

64. The American capitalist though has an edge over the German

They only maintain residences in the US...they don't have to LIVE here! They can live in any of their worldwide vacation homes if they choose to!

[Turbineguy]

65. Europeans have some memory

of the French revolution. Things were fucked up for a long time after that. A lot of the aristocrats that were killed were actually performing some useful social function.

[newtothegame]

70. Sorry, but I wouldn't want to be rich or poor if I had to live in the German economy. nt

[Karenina]

72. I'll take being "rich or poor" in Deutschland over the U.S. ANY DAY!!!

Obviously you know little beyond your borders...

[newtothegame]

87. Lived in Germany for 3 years friend. Didn't know we were required to like it.

Take care,
newtothegame

[whathehell]

106. Glad to hear it....

but before convulsing in all that smugness, you might want to identify YOUR borders and where you've gone beyond them.

[Pryderi]

73. K&R! Thanks Thom for the" heads up"

[harun]

78. Had something similar happen to me

I grew up in Wisconsin, lived on the West Coast for a bit (Las Vegas) and then moved to the Northeast (Philly). Politics of each region had its differences, or course on taxation as well. After working for a few years the municipality my office was under put a local tax on us. It was like 0.6% of income. One of my co-workers who I knew was quite wealthy, when people told him this (I expected him to be pissed) simply shrugged his shoulders and said "So what?". I had never heard this response before, and it was contrary to the idea all wealthy fight to keep every penny. This guy knew, as I now do, the nice parks, roads and schools we enjoy require people to chip in to the pot. Neither of us is going to experience any hardship from losing that 0.6%, we both gain from it as does the community.

Interesting.

[jwirr]

83. Suddenly I am very proud of my German heritage. What a great

answer.

[KillCapitalism]

88. This guy is giving a dire prediction.

He KNOWS what the fate of the US is if we stay on our current course. He knows that one day most of Africa will surpass the US in terms of quality of life.

Germany is not perfect, but I'd much rather live there. Educated workers are assets there, not objects that are discarded.

[walldude]

91. Thom Hartmann read this on the air today..

Nice job!

[chillspike]

95. Someday we'll all understand this over here

We are a group species, not a solitary one.

[RegieRocker]

102. Ahem! Had to clear my throat was speechless for a moment.

[guitar man]

110. Balderdash

I mean, how can this guy be rich over there in the first place? Everybody knows it's impossible to get rich paying those kind of tax rates!