Is Dr. David Kelly buried at the heart of the Murdoch scandal?

[GliderGuider]

The more I read today, the more convinced I'm becoming that Murdoch's Minions were at the heart of David Kelly's murder in 2003. Murdoch's media was instrumental in selling the march to war with Iraq that Kelly was threatening to derail.

In May of this year, Cameron blew off the notion of a Metropolitan Police investigation into Kelly's death:

David Cameron rules out further inquiries into death of Dr David Kelly

Sir Peter Tapsell, a senior Tory backbencher, asked Mr Cameron during Prime Minister’s Questions: “Now that there is to be an investigation into the abduction or murder of Madeleine McCann, isn’t there a much stronger case for a full investigation into the suicide or murder of Dr David Kelly?”

Mr Cameron said while he welcomed the Metropolitan Police review into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, he was not supportive of a similar move in the case of Dr Kelly.

David Cameron said the Hutton report into the Government weapons inspector's death had been “fairly clear”, adding: “I don't think it's necessary to take that case forward.”

The remarks appeared to catch the office of the Attorney General off-guard, with officials suggesting that nothing had change. A spokesman for Mr Grieve’s office said he would announce “in due course” whether he will ask the High Court to order an inquest.

Andy Hayman, who is identified as having close connections with Murdoch's Minions, was chief of counter-terrorism (Special Branch) that was part of the Met until 2006. Two Special Branch officers were apparently Johnny-on-the-spot when Kelly was suicided. Hayman was also the first officer in charge of the phone hacking scandal.

Now the landscape gets even more surreal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/13/news-international-rogue-intelligence-agents">News International accused of dealings with 'rogue' intelligence agents

MI6 (GG: also known as SIS) and MI5 were drawn into the phone hacking scandal when News International executives were accused in parliament of having close dealings with "rogue" members of the intelligence services.

David Cameron said the inquiry into hacking would be free to examine the allegations made in the Commons by Tom Watson, the former Labour defence minister who has campaigned against phone hacking.

Watson said: "Can I ask the prime minister would he allow Lord Leveson access to the intelligence services as well? At the murkier ends of this scandal there are allegations that rogue elements in the intelligence services had very close dealings with executives at News International. We need to get to the bottom of that."

The more I read today, the more plausible it becomes that Murdoch and Co. were at the heart of Dr. Kelly's murder.

This event utterly dwarfs Watergate. We are seeing the entire corporate/political/intelligence edifice of the UK and probably the US cracking wide open before our eyes. Un-fucking-believable.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

1. IMHO, it was an MI6 hit and nothing to do with Murdoch.

[GliderGuider]

3. Murdoch and "rogue elements" of MI6 are probably connected.

I doubt Murdoch himself ordered the hit, but I doubt he had to. "A nod is as good as a wink to a blind man," as they say.

[malaise]

4. The whole damned gang is connected but like you

I don't think it was this part of the gang.

[H2O Man]

8. Interesting.

I tend to agree.

While M16, like CI, has people in positions in the media, there is a difference between operational roles.

[northoftheborder]

2. Similar questions wafting through my brain.

[tibbiit]

When I first heard about this hacking thing

I thought of this guy. there really is and IS to the david kelly death.
tib

[midnight]

47. I had similar gut reactions... But I was wonder about Plame, and

the newspaper women who went to jail, she was also the last to email Dr. Kelly....

[GliderGuider]

51. These people are all aspens...

Remember Libby's letter to Judith Miller when she was in jail? "Out west, where you vacation, the aspens will already be turning. They turn in clusters, because their roots connect them."

They are all aspens:

The Murdoch famiglia
Roger Ailes
Tony Blair
David Cameron
Andy Coulson
Rebekah Brooks
"Sir" Paul Stephenson
John Yates
Ian Edmondson
Neville Thurlbeck
James Weatherup
Terenia Taras
Laura Elston
Clive Goodman
Andy Coulson
Neil Wallis
Les Hinton
Junior
Darth Cheney
Richard Perle (remember him?)
The White House Iraq Group:
-Karl Rove
-Karen Hughes
-Mary Matalin
-Andrew Card
-Dan Bartlett
-James R. Wilkinson
-Nicholas E. Calio
-Condoleezza Rice
-Stephen Hadley
-Scoter Libby
-Michael Gerson
-Ari Fleischer

And on and on and on. Joined by their roots. Now we may see some of them turning.

[valerief]

58. What does "turning" imply? nt

[GliderGuider]

63. Right now, it means they are under enough pressure

to start telling the truth in reply to authorities' questions.

Some of them. Some of the truth. Sometimes. To some questions.

We shouldn't expect miracles. It will start at the bottom, as the foot soldiers lose the protection of their masters and the physical evidence (like those notebooks) begins to surface. Fear of ending up like Sean Hoare or Robin Cook or David Kelly or Christopher Shales will slow the flood at first, but the police now have their tarnished reputation to repair, and I suspect they are going to be a little more thorough and persistent. As soon as one or two foot soldiers cave in, there should be a flood of admissions rising up from the bottom to engulf those at the top.

From our lips to God's ear, eh?

[valerief]

80. I always wondered what that meant during the Plame outing. So they were talking

then, too, huh? Thx.

[GliderGuider]

83. Libby probably meant something a bit different.

Maybe something along the lines of "Don't talk - you know we're all connected. Right now we're your friends but remember that we know where you live..."

At least that's what I'd have meant if I was Scooter.

[Horse with no Name]

77. When I started thinking about the suspicious deaths

his was the first one to mind.

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. Would it help to point out it was Thames Valley Special Branch, not the Met?

32
...
3 Q. That is the scene. We have also heard about Dr Kelly's
4 offices. What searches were carried out at the house?
5 A. The house was subject to a full search by search trained
6 officers and by members of Thames Valley Special Branch.

http://www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/content/transcripts/hearing-trans28.htm

The Met Special Branch searched his London offices:

25
...
13 A. Yes, generally coordinating the effort. I perhaps ought
14 to add that in the background we had established where
15 Dr Kelly's offices were and I had asked for officers
16 from the Metropolitan Police Special Branch to go to
17 those offices (a) just to make sure he was not at work
18 as it were and (b) to check the offices to see if there
19 was any indication as to what may have happened to him.
20 Q. And did you get a report from them at any time during
21 the day?
22 A. Yes, I did. I think there were three offices in various
23 locations in London that were visited. Once we realised
24 that Dr Kelly's body had been found, I then asked for
25 items in those offices to be seized, any items relevant,

26
1 which the officers did.
2 Q. So Special Branch from the Metropolitan area seized
3 items from Dr Kelly's offices?
4 A. They did.

I really think you're over-reaching here. Your links seem to be:
Thames Valley Special Branch searched Kelly's house when he went missing ('Johnny-on-the-spot')
The Met Special Branch searched his offices after he went missing
Andy Hayman became head of the Met Special Branch 2 years later, being the head of teh Norfolk police force from 2002 to 2005
Andy Hayman worked for News International after his retirement
therefore Murdoch's Minions were at the heart of Kelly's death in 2003.

That's not just thin, that's the thickness of a single molecule.

[GliderGuider]

6. I'm a dot-connector at heart.

I don't put as much credence in the separation between TV and the Met as I did when you threw it up initially. Hayman's centrality is more than a molecule, especially when the generally accepted theory (not the official whitewash) is that MI6 was in it up to their ulnar arteries. I'm not sure why you are so eager to derail this line of speculation. Do you think it was suicide?

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. You may not have seen my edit; Hayman was in Norfolk from 2002 to 2005

So I don't agree he is central.

Even if MI6 were "in it up to their ulnar arteries", that's MI6, isn't it? No police control them in any way.

Yes, I think it was suicide. As do his family and his close friends.

[GliderGuider]

13. You're relying to much on hierarchic chains of command. Think in terms of networks of influence.

And the family/friends were assured it was suicide by????

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. Well, they knew him and lived with him

His wife was in the house when he left - on his own.

An article written by a close friend of his, who was a well-known BBC investigative reporter: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/tom-mangold-shame-made-david-kelly-kill-himself-2058868.html

I think your theory would look a bit more convincing if you just assumed Murdoch bribed Thames Valley police, rather then following links through London and Norfolk that are just as assumed. But, if you want to stick to it, you'll have to explain the following, as Mangold said in another article:

At least two people entered his house, unseen, in the small village where he lived and where every stranger is "clocked" as a stranger. The intruders then stole his garden pruning knife and his wife's co-proxamol tablets from the upstairs bathroom, still unseen. (If they came to kill him, how extraordinary that they didn't bother to bring their own instruments for the purpose.)

They then kidnapped Kelly and forced him out of the house while his wife was present. (As she was there all the time, how could she not have seen the intruders? And why would David not have shouted for help?)

While frog-marching him to the death site in the woods, the killers must have had to release him for a while, because he was seen alone by a friend on his way to the woods where he died. Indeed, both men exchanged brief pleasantries.

The killers then would have had to re-kidnap him and march him to the woods – still unseen, where they forced tablets down his throat and made him cut his own wrist. All this done without leaving a trace of forensic evidence on Kelly. (How does one force 29 tablets down a man's throat without leaving a mark of violence?)

The plot to cover up this murder (motive unknown) had to involve the local police, the local Special Branch, MI5 and MI6 (which were involved in the inquiries after his death: David was, after all, an intelligence officer) and a small cohort of government employees. Not only did these men and women willingly conspire to cover up a murder, but they have maintained their silence for seven years.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-kelly-murdered-yes-and-i-bet-you-believe-in-the-tooth-fairy-too-2017805.html

And you now have to come up with a motive for Murdoch or an employee to be behind his death. Why would News International was Kelly dead?

[GliderGuider]

18. That's a good smokescreen. I'm impressed.

You brought up Norfolk, and you brought up the idea that I "have to" explain the bizarre notion that Kelly was kidnapped from his house - which he was not. Sorry, I'm not going to play at blowing away your clouds of smoke. You may tend to them as you wish.

News International as an organization did not want Kelly dead. I'd bet that the "web of common cause" that had Murdoch the global power broker at one of its vertices, however, did.

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. I brought up Norfolk because that's where Hayman worked at the time

Hayman who is 'central' to your theory.

So, how do you think someone forced all the tablets down Kelly without a struggle? How did they obtain his tablets and his knife? Why did the international conspiracy that you suggest have to wait for Kelly to decide to go on a long walk, rather than kill him in a manner they could control? And why did 'Murdoch and Co.' want Kelly dead?

What about his wife's opinion that he killed himself? Is she creating a smokescreen too?

[GliderGuider]

24. Hayman is not "central" to my theory - that, again, is your characterization.

Here's what I said: "Andy Hayman, who is identified as having close connections with Murdoch's Minions, was chief of counter-terrorism (Special Branch) that was part of the Met until 2006. Two Special Branch officers were apparently Johnny-on-the-spot when Kelly was suicided. Hayman was also the first officer in charge of the phone hacking scandal."

I said nothing at all about Hayman being central to any murder plan against Kelly. You moved the assumptions in that direction, where you were conveniently able to provide him with an alibi.

The issue is not whether I can or can't support a particular narrative of David Kelly's death. The point I was making is much larger and frankly more sinister than that.

The evidence we have on hand hints at a "conspiracy of common cause" involving politicians, military intelligence, police counter-terrorism and the media empires of Murdock and Ailes - men who are well known for strong authoritarian political views. The media empire supplied the cash, some politicians and their mentors provided the ideology and access to legislative power, the intelligence and police services provided the muscle. Some politicians and police were probably suborned, blackmailed or simply misled. That's easy to do when advisers flow between the three domains so readily - the advisers are the human glue that holds it all together.

A network of common interest like this doesn't need Murdock to give an order to have someone killed, or Ailes to tell Bush Jr. to invade Iraq - there are understandings between the senior men involved that need few directive words to set events in motion. They all simply agree on what needs to be done to gain or secure power and control, because they are a band of brothers. An oblique conversational reference to the difficulties posed by some person or situation is all it takes to start the ball rolling - a ball that might come to rest in the woods on on Harrowdown Hill, for example.

The identity of the person who gives the execution order to the mechanics is unimportant, and may never be known. Likewise there is no "Dr. Evil" sitting at the center of this web, because the web has no center. It has vertices, and at each one is a significant actor - like Murdock, or Ailes, or Cheney or Poppy Bush or a number of American DCIs or English heads of MI5 and MI6. "Dark actors, playing games" in David Kelley's last words to Judith Miller - herself an expendable foot-soldier like Rebekah Brooks, who thought their parts in the drama were larger than they really were.

In this context, what Kelley's wife says or believes is of very little consequence.

Your apparent interest in discrediting this line of speculation is fascinating. Why does it matter to you whether my musings convince a few more people to renew their skepticism of the official story about Kelly's death? It doesn't seem that it should matter much to you at all.

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. "Hayman's centrality is more than a molecule" - your reply #6

and I'll also remind you that your OP refers to "Murdoch's Minions being at the heart". I do think you were painting him as "Dr. Evil", setting at the centre of this web.

Fine, you dismiss his wife's experience and evidence - the woman married to him for years, who spent the last few days of his life with him - as "of very little consequence". You're just making things up, and ignoring the reality of the case, then. You're not interested in finding out what happened. You are just wanting attention on DU as you manufacture fairy stories that stroke your preconceptions.

I'm glad you admit you're speculating. I'm interested because reality and the truth are important, and you seem to be drifting away from them, and leading some other DUers with you. There's plenty to investigate in this affair - corruption, definite murder cases and apparent interference in them, for instance. But you run to David Kelly - because it's a British event that you remember? - and are immediately convinced there must be a link, because in a country of 60 million, everything always is intimately connected, isn't it? And you can end up diverting attention from the actual case with your 'join the random dots' approach.

[GliderGuider]

29. Lest you have forgotten, I'm not the only person who thinks it wasn't suicide.

Remember these gentlemen? The story is from 2009:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1199109/13-doctors-demand-inquest-Dr-David-Kellys-death.html">13 doctors demand inquest into Dr David Kelly's death

A group of doctors has demanded an inquest into the death of government scientist David Kelly – saying the verdict of suicide should be overturned.

No coroner's inquest was held into his death and the results of a post-mortem examination were never made public. But the Hutton inquiry commissioned by Tony Blair concluded that the 59-year-old scientist died of blood loss after cutting his wrist with a blunt gardening knife.

Now a team of 13 specialist doctors has questioned that verdict. They say a cut to the wrist's small and hard-to-access ulnar artery could not have caused death. Their 12-page dossier concludes: 'The bleeding from Dr Kelly's ulnar artery is highly unlikely to have been so voluminous and rapid that it was the cause of death.

The doctors have been working closely with Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker, who has long believed there are unanswered questions over Dr Kelly's death. Mr Baker said the dossier had been put together now to tie in with Sir John Chilcot's inquiry into the Iraq war, and it will be sent to him. The dossier does not say how the doctors believe Dr Kelly did die. But one of them, David Halpin, said: 'We reject haemorrhage as the cause of death and see no contrary opinion which would stand its ground. I think it is highly likely he was assassinated.'

And another story from just last summer:

Experts call for David Kelly inquest

A group of prominent legal and medical experts today called for a full inquest into the death of the government scientist David Kelly in 2003.

Nine experts including Michael Powers, a QC and former coroner, and Julian Blon, a professor of intensive care medicine, said in a letter to the Times that the official cause of death – haemorrhage from the severed artery – was "extremely unlikely".

"Insufficient blood would have been lost to threaten life," they said. "Absent a quantitative assessment of the blood lost and of the blood remaining in the great vessels, the conclusion that death occurred as a consequence of haemorrhage is unsafe."

In January, five doctors who made an application to the Oxford coroner to have the inquest reopened, were told that Hutton made a ruling in 2003 to keep medical reports and photographs closed for 70 years. Hutton responded by saying the documents could be revealed to doctors and that he had made the gagging order to spare Kelly's family "unnecessary distress".

Your tone is frankly puzzling. Kelly was not just some random British death. It was the death under extremely questionable circumstances of a man who was intimately involved in the leadup to the Iraq war. There are, as the item above shows, many unanswered questions about it, and many qualified people asking those questions. If it was indeed a murder and not suicide, it may have involved many of the very same people now being swept uip in the widening net of the Murdoch phone-hacking scandal. If they were involved, they may have committed treasonable actions. The possibility of such a situation demands further questions, not debunking.

The level of charge on your line of questioning seems completely disproportionate (and strangely inappropriate) for a thread that is just pointing out that a major British case has links to ongoing revelations of malfeasance by police, politicians and the media.

[muriel_volestrangler]

32. You are not "just pointing out" links - you have made them up

That is the fundamental problem with this thread. It is your speculation, and nothing more than that. You have not shown that anyone involved in the Murdoch scandal was involved in the Kelly one.

[GliderGuider]

38. That's an interesting line of attack.

This is a web board. Speculation is what we do here. I don't quite get why you feel this particular speculation is illegitimate? A whole lot of people (from bloggers to politicians and coroners) disagree with you. Emphatically.

Why should we not speculate about this????

[riderinthestorm]

25. Can I just interject that married couples often don't fully know what's going on with their spouse?

Dr. David Kelly was a person of huge importance. His job clearly was pivotal for a LOT of important people and his input was crucial.

How "involved" was his wife in his work or his inner reflections? Relationships are tricky and to assume his wife "knew' all facets of her husband and his personal turmoil is facile. She may have believed he was "down" and in HER opinion, because she may have never seen him "down" before, he was suicidal. But was he simply distressed and distracted about the events revolving around him?

Relying upon the family to have spotted suicidal tendencies isn't informative enough. What are the wife's thoughts on depression? Was the marriage "close", did David Kelly even keep his wife in his loop? While the family's input is part of the puzzle, frankly, its just one part and certainly not the most important part. Too many people have committed crazy, egregious, unpredictable, unprecedented acts whereby "nobody could have predicted THAT!" is the common denominator, for me to believe that a family's input is the final word.

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. But she's still far more likely to have the insights than anyone else

There's no way she can be described "of very little consequence" in this.

[GliderGuider]

30. Was she an investigator in the case? Is she a medical doctor?

She has every right to her feelings and opinions, but those feelings and opinions - as legitimate as they are - are not evidence. She can speak to Kelly's actions before the event, but the impressions of a wife about the mental state of her husband are not iron-clad. This is especially true when we judge the public statements of a wife who has been carefully briefed by senior government (and presumably military intelligence) officials following her husband's death in unusual circumstances.

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. Of course they're fucking evidence

Don't be so fucking ridiculous. She was an eye witness on the day of his death, and a witness to his state of mind in the days before.

[GliderGuider]

37. Please don't cuss, children may be reading this.

Janice Kelly did not witness his death. She has said he was under strain, and was acting somewhat withdrawn. The implication that his state of mind was suicidal comes from others, not her. There's no question that Kelly was under enormous pressure from MoD, but according to his wife his reaction was anything but suicidal:

Suicide or Murder? The Dr. David Kelly Affair

According to Janice Kelly, his wife, "I had never known him to be as unhappy as he was then . . . he had a broken heart. He had shrunk into himself, but I had no idea of what he might do later." According to Kelly’s 30 year-old-daughter her father was "very, very deeply traumatized." But interestingly, he was not in a typical passive depressed state. He was, as Janice testified, also ‘angry’ about his House of Commons Committee testimony being televised. According to Janice, "He went ballistic, he just did not like that idea at all."14 Kelly also felt ‘betrayed’ by his bosses for revealing his name to the media.

Remember the famous Kelly statement quoted above: "I will probably be found dead in the woods" after Iraq is invaded. Kelly also refers to ‘dark actors’ playing games in an e-mail shortly before he died.21 Also Kelly, as his wife clearly said, was still capable of anger and rage at being ‘betrayed’ by the Ministry of Defense. Kelly was not the completely depressed, passive broken man some have painted him as. Scott Ritter, who worked with Kelly as part of the UN weapons inspections team in Iraq, has commented on Kelly’s strong character as many others have. Ritter said, "While a gentle man, he had a core of steel in him. I’ve seen him interact with Iraqi governmental officials; there is no give in this man."

That certainly doesn't sound like a suicidal man to me.

Again I have to ask, why do you carry so much charge over this line of inquiry?

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. Because you dismiss his widow, and you attack me as 'blowing smoke'

I just pointed out your links were weak or not there. But you claim I'm producing a 'smokescreen'. It's you who has made this personal, against me, and that's why I've stuck with it. I also find your dismissal of Mrs. Kelly offensive - it puts you on Murdoch's level of not caring about the bereaved family, and just claiming whatever suits your own ideas.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JDPriestly]

66. Is it possible that the same discouragement and grief that

causes people like Dr. Kelly to speak truth to power moves them to suicide when they are caused to believe that in their honesty, their speaking out, they are not supported? Do you suppose that maybe some people speak out because they just want to tell the truth before they commit suicide?

[GliderGuider]

69. Only in the minds of the spin artists.

People who are depressed and discouraged don't usually speak truth to power. That's an act that takes a lot of courage. Once you've done it you generally want to stick around and see the results.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GliderGuider]

73. I can't speak to anyone's motivation but my own.

I will say, though, that a hyper-attention to "the facts" often serves to distract us from "the truth".
:hi:

[Aerows]

75. Right on time

with you there my friend, and I agree :)

[JDPriestly]

76. You have a point.

I suppose it is a question of at what stage of grief or sorrow a person is.

[emcguffie]

45. Just curious... (I have replied to the wrong post)

Could you explain why you remain convinced it was suicide when so many physicians say he could not have bled to death from a cut to the ulnar artery? (From a blunt garden knife, to boot.)

Edited to explain this is in reply to the wrong post.

It was meant to be in reply to the person arguing that David Kelley's death was indeed suicide. Sorry I don't know how to fix it, if there is a fix.

[GliderGuider]

46. Maybe the wrong post, but you definitely replied to the right person...

We'll see what they have to say.

[GliderGuider]

22. BTW, it looks to me like Mangold is a government disinformation artist.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/111203_kelly_2.html

The first inspection trip was dramatized in a Frontline production in 1998 entitled "Plague War" shown on PBS in the U.S. and BBC in the U.K. Its main theme was that only Russia had violated the 1972 treaty but the U.S. and U.K. had abated their programs. Co-author of the script for the program was Tom Mangold, a sometime author and until very recently a BBC employee (propagandist?). Mangold was one of the earliest writers to proclaim Kelly's death as a suicide and has written articles "explaining" why Kelly killed himself. He bills himself as a "best friend" of Kelly but had to admit to the Hutton inquiry that his contacts with Kelly had been relatively few and mostly by e-mail.

In the months before his death, Dr. Kelly became embroiled in a shouting match between the British government and BBC. Andrew Gilligan, a reporter for BBC claimed that Kelly had given him and other reporters information that proved the government had exaggerated the Iraqi danger in its "dossier" justifying the war against Iraq and that Kelly had not been completely honest in telling his MoD superiors what he had disclosed to them. Writer Tom Mangold (it's not clear when he left the employ of BBC) used this to reason that Kelly's loss of integrity at being exposed as a "liar" was what led him to suicide.

Mangold was not the only one to push the suicide angle. After Kelly's death, Foreign Office diplomat David Broucher made headlines around the world when he claimed Kelly had said if Iraq was attacked he might be "found dead in the woods." Broucher testified the remark was made at the end of a meeting he had with Kelly in February of this year in Geneva where they discussed the WMD "dossier." He said he didn't think much of it at the time but in retrospect Kelly may have been considering suicide then.

Actually, the opposite of the Mangold thesis appears to be the truth. Kelly was treated badly by MoD over the last three years of his life. He had not had a salary increase in three years as he approached retirement where his pension would be a function of salary. At one time he was told there would be reorganization within the intelligence operation and he would get a sizeable increase in salary. That didn't happen. Kelly had written several letters about his position and, according to his widow, was quite upset and frustrated about it (not despondent and suicidal).

Now why on Earth would you be asking me to disprove what is probably a disinformation package designed to spin Kelly's death?

[muriel_volestrangler]

27. I don't regard teh BBC as propaganda, and it'll take more than an unknown blogger

on Michael Ruppert's site (hah! He has zero credibility; normal DU practice is to move anything he writes to the Sept 11 forum, since it's idiotic make-believe) to make Tom Mangold look like 'disinformation'. Everyone said Kelly's death was suicide, right from the start. Mangold is an award-winning journalist, and what he says is also what Kelly's widow says (oh, I remember, what she says is 'of very little consequence' - but an unknown blogger is, to you, worth repeating as if it disproves what Mangold and Mrs. Kelly say).

[GliderGuider]

31. Who said the Beeb was propaganda? Not I.

I said Mangold sounds to me like a disinformation agent. Especially since he apparently embellished his relationship with Kelly to give his speculations about Kelly's state of mind more authority

[muriel_volestrangler]

33. The blogger you quote: "a BBC employee (propagandist?)" (nt)

[GliderGuider]

36. That's a reference to the man being a propagandist, not his employer.

BTW, thanks for keeping the thread alive! :evilgrin:

[JDPriestly]

65. What did Hayman do at News International?

He was a police officer, not a journalist? Did he write or provide security?

Was he hired by News of the World for his connections within the police department?

What did he do while there?

[GliderGuider]

71. Hayman had a varied relationship with NI

He had numerous social contacts with NewsCorp executives, particularly with Andy Coulson:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/13/john-yates-meeting-news-international

The "work" he did for them while a cop mostly amounted to obstructing the phone-hacking investigation, but and he also worked as a columnist for The Times, where his columns seemed to draw on his experiences on the police force.

[sabrina 1]

9. Your last paragraph I believe will turn out to be stunningly true

unless there is still enough power behind Cameron et al to stop what is happening. These people have so much to hide, so many crimes to cover up, they will not give up easily, but maybe, just maybe, they've lost control and if the forces for good, whoever they are in this mess, keep up the momentum, I think you are absolutely correct. This scandal is way bigger than Watergate and imo, is about way more than phone hacking.

I hope Cameron is next to go. I don't see how he can be trusted at all to continue in his role as PM considering his associations with the Murdoch Empire.

But then as you point out, the interconnnections between the government/police/intelligence/corps/rightwing media are so tight that the question is, who can be trusted to investigate all of this?

It looks like Britain was taken over in a coup and they had their own propaganda machine to help do it.


I don't think there has ever been a bigger story than this and I don't think it ends at Britain's shores.

[WinkyDink]

16. I'm with you. FOX, Ailes, Norquist, Cheney, Bush 41 (CIA) and 43: up to their eyeballs.

[mod mom]

41. FOX has functioned as wholly owned subsidiary of the RNC

lets hope the whistleblowers start whistling.

[tridim]

49. Breitbart, O'Keefe.. All the ratfuckers are connected at the roots.

[Pacifist Patriot]

44. I feel some guilt

Taking such delight in watching the empire crumble into dust. There will be innocent victims among the rubble.

[Pooka Fey]

10. K&R

[WillyT]

11. K & R !!!

:kick:

[Distant Observer]

12. We will probably never see more than whats on the bent corner of a page.

Western media, intelligence, Governments work hand in hand.

[riderinthestorm]

14. I believe there are journalists who work for the intelligence agencies

(high profile ones like Bob Woodward and lesser known figures).

I also believe there is a connection between Murdoch's intelligence gathering, and Dr. Kelly's demise.

Furthermore, I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence.

K and R

Edited to add that I don't believe Kelly is at the "heart" of the scandal. He's just one of MANY figures who have been touched by the evil imho.

We'll see plenty more crimes come to light before this is over.

[tiny elvis]

56. who has seen an explanation why news int would spy on the 7/7 families

or families of iraq war fallen?
why do some congresspersons think news international may have spied on 9/11 families in particular?

[WinkyDink]

86. Ever heard of the Jersey Girls? TPTB don't like questioners; must keep track.

[HipChick]

17. Along with Robert Maxwell's demise...Murdock's Media rival..

Some claim he was murdered too..


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003/nov/24/mondaymediasection6

[GliderGuider]

34. And there are the lingering questions about the death of Robin Cook

If Kelly's death was no suicide, it would stand to reason that there might be other odd deaths in the general political vicinity.

Take the case of Robin Cook, the Labour MP who was also onetime Foreign Secretary, who resigned over his opposition to Britain's rush to war with Iraq under Tony "the Poodle" Blair. In 2005 he had a rather sudden, unexpected and extreme heart attack - also, coincidentally, on a country hill.

Norman Baker, a Liberal Democrat MP, smells the same rat in both cases:

Norman Baker: Was Robin Cook murdered?

You may recall that one of the projects that Norman Baker devoted himself to after leaving the Lib Dem front bench was investigating the death of David Kelly.

That is not the only death he has suspicions about. The Brighton Argus reports that Norman has doubts about the death of Robin Cook too:

Mr Baker has signed a book deal to explain in greater detail his findings on Dr Kelly's death and he expects to publish it later this year.

But the MP insists he will continue to investigate.

He has nagging doubts about the official line taken over the recent Navy hostages taken in Iran and over the death of Robin Cook, the MP who resigned in protest at the Iraq war.

He said: "Robin Cook was on Ministry of Defence land, I believe, when he died and certainly I have doubts over what happened."

There are those, of course, who doubt Norman Baker's theories.

But for every person out there who does there are an equal number for whom the MP has become a beacon of truth in an increasingly murky world.

[suffragette]

48. Hmm, this is reminding me of the recent death of Christopher Shales

He was entirely connected up with Cameron and Murdoch's minions and lived near all of them, then a memo he wrote criticizing Tories is leaked (to of all places the Daily Mail) and he ends up dead in a toilet at a festival in Glastonbury.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/jun/26/senior-tory-glastonbury-christopher-shale

From his passion for Glastonbury to his drive to reform his party's membership, in many ways Shale appeared to be an exemplary modern Conservative.

~~~

A father of three, married to Nikki, 55, who runs a property company, Shale had worked in marketing and management consultancy and lived in a handsome house on a remote lane near the village of Over Worton in the rolling Oxfordshire countryside around Chipping Norton, which has become a weekend powerbase for the Conservatives.

His two sons, who were at Glastonbury with him, were due to return to the family home while his wife was to stay with his body in Somerset.

The family home is six miles from the Camerons' constituency cottage and a short drive from the homes of Rebekah Brooks, the chief executive of News International, Elisabeth Murdoch, a board director of News Corp, and Steve Hilton, Cameron's director of strategy in Downing Street.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/27/christopher-shale-death-at-glastonbury

Much more at link to read, but here are 4 pertinent paragraphs:

11am

- Festival organiser Michael Eavis gives press conference saying he has heard it is "a suicide situation". Glastonbury officials later admit

he was not properly briefed.

- The festival refers all subsequent requests for Eavis to confirm his statement to police who brief that Shale appeared to have died from a heart attack.

8pm

- Police announce that the results of the postmortem, combined with the inquiries conducted into the circumstances surrounding the death, indicate it is not suspicious.
Monday, 27 June 2011

2.30pm

Tony Williams, the coroner for East Somerset, says toxicology and histology tests have been ordered after the coroner's court hears the cause of death was "unascertained". Shale's body is released to his family for burial.

[GliderGuider]

52. Reported minutes ago: News of the World phone hacking whistleblower found dead

News of the World phone hacking whistleblower found dead

Sean Hoare, the former News of the World showbiz reporter who was the first named journalist to allege Andy Coulson was aware of phone hacking by his staff, has been found dead, the Guardian has learned.

Hertfordshire police would not confirm his identity, but the force said in a statement: "At 10.40am today police were called to Langley Road, Watford, following the concerns for welfare of a man who lives at an address on the street. Upon police and ambulance arrival at a property, the body of a man was found. The man was pronounced dead at the scene shortly after.

"The death is currently being treated as unexplained, but not thought to be suspicious. Police investigations into this incident are ongoing."

Hoare first made his claims in a New York Times investigation into the phone-hacking allegations at the News of the World.

Things that make you say "Hmmmmm....."

[suffragette]

60. Very interesting, indeed

And may i just say, "Hmmmmm....."

[cascadiance]

19. Some of the last email exchanges that David Kelly had were with NY Times Judith Miller...

Now THAT would be an interesting and weird twist if there was a connection that Murdochco were either playing some game with Judith Miller on this, or some how working WITH her in this whole mess when he got killed.

I'm trying to picture a conspiracy of murder with entities at the NY Times and Newscorp being intertwined together...

[KoKo]

42. The Miller connection was very strange.

Remember they worked on a book about bio terror or something like that. DU had tons of stuff on it years ago. So much has happened since then it's hard to remember all the crimes.

[GliderGuider]

43. Kelly was a source for Miller's book "Germs"

Here's a link to Peace Patriot's DU article about it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4078750&mesg_id=4079170

Kelly was apparently planning a book of his own that would have been, um, unpopular with his masters and minders:

http://judithmilleranddrdavidkellyandwmd.blogspot.com/2009/07/david-kelly-was-writing-book.html

Weapons inspector David Kelly was writing a book exposing highly damaging government secrets before his mysterious death. He was intending to reveal that he warned Prime Minister Tony Blair there were no weapons of mass destruction anywhere in Iraq weeks before the British and American invasion.

He had several discussions with a publisher in Oxford and was seeking advice on how far he could go without breaking the law on secrets.

Dr Kelly was also intending to lift the lid on a potentially bigger scandal, his own secret dealings in germ warfare with the apartheid regime in South Africa.

US television investigators have spent four years preparing a 90-minute documentary, Anthrax War, suggesting there is a global black market in anthrax and exposing the mystery "suicides" of five government germ warfare scientists from around the world.

"We have proved there is a black market in anthrax. David Kelly was of particular interest to us because he was a world expert on anthrax and he was involved in some degree with assisting the secret germ warfare programme in apartheid South Africa."

[Selena Harris]

64. MUST READ ARTICLE-Porton Down and Operation Rockingham

The Raw Story | Hersh: 'Executive assassination ring' reported ...rawstory.com/.../Hersh_US_has_been_running_executive_0311.ht... - CachedSimilar
Mar 11, 2009 – Hersh: 'Executive assassination ring' reported directly to Cheney ... years which reported directly to former Vice President Dick Cheney. ...

►Dick Cheney's "Executive Assassination Ring".www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14423 - CachedSimilar
Jul 17, 2009 – Dick Cheney's "Executive Assassination Ring". Was British Weapons Expert Dr. David Kelly a Target ? by Tom Burghardt ...


NOTE: The Tom Burghardt piece is a must. Best I have read yet. Ever hear of Operation Rockingham? The South Africa Porton Down nexxux is explained here,and definitely worth a closer look.

[GliderGuider]

67. Fuck! And THANK YOU! You're right - EVERYBODY needs to read this.

This is by far the best compilation of connected dots I've read so far. Burghardt is hotter than a two dollar pistol.

We ALL need to read this to understand what kind of a monster we're really up against. There is a lot of deeply, seriously frightening shit going on just out of our sight. There are so many threads to this story it's like walking on a carpet.

I really hope the toehold they have into this chamber of horrors via Murdoch's phone-hack overreach pays dividends. It would be an ironically wonderful tribute if Millie Dowling's death was the straw that started this camel's breakdown.

[WinkyDink]

85. Big money is, as we speak, working to contain the Murdochian Scandal. Cf: Walsh Report, Iran-Contra.

[GliderGuider]

87. No question about it.

Murdoch's hiring of Sullivan speaks volumes. The rats are scurrying like mad, trying to keep the ship from sinking...

[spanone]

20. k&r...

[Raksha]

23. Probably. I haven't forgotten Dr. David Kelly,

and I'm sure I'm not alone.

[PassingFair]

50. My brow furrows at the mention of his name.

So sad.

I wonder why his family is silent...if it were my father,
I would be screaming still..

[caseymoz]

53. So far I'd file this under 'wild speculation.'

It's also totally plausible that an asteroid hit the earth last Wednesday. It doesn't mean that it happened.

Although any excuse to reopen the Kelly case would be good, and it's apparent Murdoch was in league with other Randites on three continents.

But here's what your actually giving as suspicious: three guys in intelligence were friendly with Murdoch. They were also somewhere involved or in the vicinity of Kelly when he died. Then Murdoch's organization committed totally unrelated crimes.

To cite my metaphor, so far you've placed the asteroid within a million miles of earth last Wednesday. All you lack is any evidence of a collision.

Difference is, of course, an asteroid didn't definitely hit the earth while the connection between Kelly and Murdoch is still just murky, and doubtful. But you can't tell what direction this is going to go and what's going to come out as this empire crumbles and its influence is reduced or removed.

I'm waiting to see if the entire modern Conservative movement isn't actually astroturf.

[GliderGuider]

68. You think so? Try reading this and then saying that.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14423

[caseymoz]

81. Nothing there surprises me. Were you thinking I was just not terrified enough?

I stick by what I said.

Are you saying it was it the CIA, MI6 or Murdoch's company that assassinated Kelly? Or are they somehow utterly alike to you, all pulled together in some gigantic, faction-free, seamless conspiracy? There are a big differences between those three entities, they have different interests with some things in common. When you claim there must be some connection between Murdoch and Kelly's death and then give me a link to an article about the CIA, as "evidence" of this, there's something quite wrong with your thought process.

Nothing in this article ties anything to Murdoch's operation. You don't seem to know the difference between evidence and speculation, nor much of a concept of separate entities with different interests, even though they all oppose ours. Nor do you have any idea which way the arrow of inference points when evaluating evidence.

[GliderGuider]

82. I'm glad you're not surprised.

No, it's obviously not a "seamless conspiracy". It's a bunch of overlapping agencies, organizations and people who have deep and obscure connections. The more we understand about their interconnections the less surprised we'll be when odd things happen.

[caseymoz]

89. It just seems to me that it isn't wise to involve a lot of organizations in an assassination.

That seems like a no-brainer. Murder would be the thing kept under the tightest wraps.

But, of course, you could get yourself killed assuming that people would always do the smartest thing. Even vast collective entities of people.

[GliderGuider]

91. There's no need to involve a lot of organizations as such

These sorts of organizations have overlapping areas of interest, and powerful people within each organization who have personal ties to powerful people in the others. In order for an assasination to happen, whole organizations wouldn't be read into the playbook. It would run on personal connections between organizational power brokers who can leverage their organization's resources

I would imagine such an event would typically be started off by an oblique conversation between two such powerful individuals. Each of them would understand what needed to happen, and task some small part of their own organization with a job essential to the outcome without informing them what the final intention was. The trigger would eventually be pulled (or the ulnar artery sliced, if you will) by someone who might not even know who had hired him for the job.

Compartmentalization and personal connections keep the risk contained.

[NashVegas]

54. I've Suspected Kelly's Phone Was Hacked, But This Is Extreme, No?

Possibly Andrew Gilligan's, as well, in order to ID his source.

That possibility was laid out in this post last week:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=1460594

Why would Murdoch's agents get their hands dirty with Kelly's death when they already outed him?

[GliderGuider]

55. I don't actually think "Murdoch's people" did it.

I expect the wet work would have been handled by MI6 or a contractor.

the point I'm making is that they are all aspens, and some of them may be starting to turn. There are a ton of overlapping connections between MI5, MI6, the Met, Special Branch, politicians on both sides of the pond, and the media empires of Murdoch and Ailes.

The classic technique in real investigative journalism is to keep digging until you find a crack, no matter how small, then hammer a wedge into it and open it up some more, and follow the story wherever it leads. I suspect that the fault lines that run out from the crack of Millie Dowling's voicemail could end up opening the grave of Dr. Kelly. Because the aspen roots are all connected. I dearly hope so, because this is the best chance civilized humanity has had in a while.

[socialist_n_TN]

57. Well, just from a cursory reading, there sure

seems to be a lot of deaths attached to this group of allies. And although it seems like GB is compromised by the international capitalists, I'm still glad it's happening there. I think there's a better chance that it gets aired out in GB than it would if it happened here.

[stockholmer]

59. ironic timing for this OP, given the, uh, erm, hm, 'unexplained, not suspicious' death of Sean Hoare

:wtf:

[GliderGuider]

62. I know. It's a little spooky, actually. nt

[Matariki]

70. Man was I just thinking the same.

'unexplained, not suspicious' - "they" must really think the public is idiotic and/or powerless. And I suppose we are.

[lovuian]

61. Yes

I believe Murdoch was part of it the whole Iraq War ....Weapons of Mass Destruction

[defendandprotect]

74. Thanks -- interesting indeed -- !!

The more I read today, the more plausible it becomes that Murdoch and Co. were at the heart of Dr. Kelly's murder.


CIA's Operation Mockingbird -- late 1940's --

Starting in the early days of the Cold War (late 40's), the CIA began a secret project called Operation Mockingbird, with the intent of buying influence behind the scenes at major media outlets and putting reporters on the CIA payroll, which has proven to be a stunning ongoing success. The CIA effort to recruit American news organizations and journalists to become spies and disseminators of propaganda, was headed up by Frank Wisner, Allen Dulles, Richard Helms, and Philip Graham (publisher of The Washington Post). Wisner had taken Graham under his wing to direct the program code-named Operation Mockingbird and both have presumably committed suicide.

Media assets will eventually include ABC, NBC, CBS, Time, Newsweek, Associated Press, United Press International (UPI), Reuters, Hearst Newspapers, Scripps-Howard, Copley News Service, etc. and 400 journalists, who have secretly carried out assignments according to documents on file at CIA headquarters, from intelligence-gathering to serving as go-betweens. The CIA had infiltrated the nation's businesses, media, and universities with tens of thousands of on-call operatives by the 1950's. CIA Director Dulles had staffed the CIA almost exclusively with Ivy League graduates, especially from Yale with figures like George Herbert Walker Bush from the "Skull and Crossbones" Society.


Would disagree with you re this, however . . .

This event utterly dwarfs Watergate. We are seeing the entire corporate/political/intelligence edifice of the UK and probably the US cracking wide open before our eyes. Un-fucking-believable.


Watergate was hugely important for the rw in moving as far as they have come --

Keep in mind, Huston Plan was modelled on Operation Northwoods -- and was intended to STOP

the 1972 elections, if necessary --

Basically, what we have to understand is that WWII and fascism never ended -- it was

brought here by Allen Dulles when he brought in NAZIS by the tens of thousands and used

them to found the CIA and funneled them also into FBI and other government agencies --

See Project Paperclip -- and there are suspicions that JFK had found out about that program.


Of course, the treasonous/fascist J. Edgar Hoover was already involved in running a

GESTAPO --



IMO, there also was no "Southern Strategy" --

I think late 60's is where the computer steals began --


Terrific job on this --

:)

[GliderGuider]

78. Thanks! I think we may have different interpretations of what I meant by "dwarfs Watergate"

I completely agree about the growth of fascism - probably since the Great Depression. What I meant by "dwarfs Watergate" is that this is the first time we've had a chance to really pull off their mask and look at the face of evil behind it. They screwed up with Watergate and took a hit from the exposure, but it wasn't a fatal (or even a terribly damaging) blow, judging by what they've accomplished since then. This time I have the feeling that we may have cracked their facade in such a way that there's a chance we can pull a big chunk of it away and actually deal with the demons inside.

The involvement of the police and the public revulsion towards Murdoch give me this hope. The British public is insisting on action, and the police have an enormous repair job to do on their reputation, so they are likely to show a bit more integrity and spine.

If an investigation in America reveals hacking of 9/11 victims, the same public mood will spread on this side of the pond as well. I suspect that a violation of the sacred trust people feel regarding those victims could unite Left and Right against the perps.

I've been wrong before on things like this, but it really feels different this time.

Hoping for a better world,
GG

[defendandprotect]

79. Then I completely agree with you ---

And very interesting comments --

What I meant by "dwarfs Watergate" is that this is the first time we've had a chance to really pull off their mask and look at the face of evil behind it. They screwed up with Watergate and took a hit from the exposure, but it wasn't a fatal (or even a terribly damaging) blow, judging by what they've accomplished since then. This time I have the feeling that we may have cracked their facade in such a way that there's a chance we can pull a big chunk of it away and actually deal with the demons inside.

Can only hope you will be right because the public imo has a difficult time understanding how

deep that evil goes -- simply because it makes no sense to them, understandably.

Why would anyone want perpetual wars -- or want to purposefully destroy nature --

They find it difficult to accept that there is evil on such levels.



I completely agree about the growth of fascism - probably since the Great Depression.

Obviously, the rw understood that the WWII propaganda based on "Americanism" --

"Equality for All" -- "democracy" -- and the popularity of the New Deal/FDR were going to

require a huge backlash movement to reverse it all -- something like the McCarthy Era!!



:)




Operation Mockingbird
http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_louise_01_03_03_mockingbird.html

[GliderGuider]

84. Backlashes

Obviously, the rw understood that the WWII propaganda based on "Americanism" -- "Equality for All" -- "democracy" -- and the popularity of the New Deal/FDR were going to require a huge backlash movement to reverse it all -- something like the McCarthy Era!!

Absolutely true. And the 1960s counterculture movement required a backlash as well. That one was initiated by the Powell Memo, whose propositions pointed the way to the whole right-wing propaganda machine that has enslaved the much of the English-speaking West today. In a sense, Murdoch's evil empire is built on the foundation of the Powell memo - along with all the hate radio, right-wing think tanks and come-to-Jesus politics in the USA.

If western culture (and not just England) "swings like a pendulum do" then we could have some very interesting times coming up.

[defendandprotect]

90. True --

RW likes to refer to the 1960's Youth Movement as being about sex, but of course

it was a total challenge to authority/patriarchal culture --

[Bonobo]

88. Impossible! That would be a "conspiracy theory" and we KNOW such things don't happen.

Hell, we've got a dungeon at DU where such things go to be put to death by association with alien visitation and no moon landings theories.