Hugo Chávez Promises Two Million Homes For Venezuela's Poor: Real Hope Or Just Hot Air?

[The Northerner]

The Venezuelan government is on a “mission” to set millions of poor Venezuelans up with public housing. The plan is kindling hope among some Caracas slum dwellers. Critics, however, say Chávez’ housing scheme is more than a little far-fetched.

CARACAS - While health questions continue to hound Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, his government continues to push ahead with the so-called Bolivarian Revolution. At its center is a massive public housing scheme, dubbed the Gran Mision Vivienda, or Great Housing Mission, in which the Chávez government promises to build 2 million subsidized residences by 2017.

Critics of the government say the plan is little more than an inflated campaign promise. Chávez officials, however, insist the Housing Mission is already well underway. Energy and Mines Minister Rafael Ramirez recently claimed that 16,694 apartments were built during the first half of this year. The government expects to complete a total of 153,000 accommodations by the end of the year, plus an additional 200,000 in 2012.

Elections are scheduled for late 2012. Chávez – who came to power a dozen years ago – will look to stay on as president, health permitting. The fiery leftist revealed last month that he is receiving treatment for cancer.

Read more: http://worldcrunch.com/hugo-ch-vez-promises-two-million-homes-venezuelas-poor-real-hope-or-just-hot-air/3460

[Vincardog]

1. I would believe Chavez before I would believe any US politician

[newfie11]

5. +1

[hifiguy]

11. +2

Chavez has actually done what he promised, unlike a certain POTUS I could name.

[TBF]

27. +3 nt

[malaise]

2. Well he did promise that the football team would improve

and they've made the quarter finals for COPA which is beyond unbelievable.

[fascisthunter]

3. Um... he has a pretty good track record of following through

we shall see.

[EFerrari]

10. They've missed housing goals before

but on the way to missing them, they've taken good sized bites out of the shortage.

Better than anything underway here.

[fascisthunter]

51. Thank you...

do you have the numbers handy, could you supply me with something regarding housing?

I do not expect a link ASAP, only if you have it handy. I will look it up myself if you don't.

Thanks Eferrari

[EFerrari]

58. I'm sorry I don't. But my memory is that they set ambitious goals

and miss them. But the number of units going up is pretty steady.

[joshcryer]

59. Here's a pro-Chavismo site that has the numbers:

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/6000

Estimates of the total housing deficit range from two to three million. It is also estimated that Venezuelans need a minimum of 135,000 to 200,000 new homes per year to defeat the crisis in ten years, but in the first five years of the Chavez government, government and private sectors constructed an average of 34,000 homes, roughly equal to or less than under previous governments.

[sabrina 1]

4. At least he's trying and addressing the problem.

I hope he succeeds.

[EFerrari]

6. Stacks up better than foreclosure as a national housing strategy. n/t

[The Big Vetolski]

7. +1!

:bounce: :toast: :bounce:

[The Big Vetolski]

8. I'm sure some will be saying Chavez is just doing that to buy votes.

Well, that's a lot better way to buy votes than what American politicians do, nest ce pas?

[socialist_n_TN]

9. Well I'll add to the choir here........

Yep at least he IS trying and yep, he does have a pretty good track record of putting his plans into practice. And yep, I'd believe him before I'd believe any US politician.

I'm surprised the anti Chevez brigade hasn't shown up yet. :)

[sabrina 1]

12. Well, it takes a while to get the memo and he may have

taken the opposition by surprise with this announcement. :-)

[socialist_n_TN]

13. Good point sabrina.........

I'm sure they'll be here soon. :)

[hifiguy]

15. You 'n me both S n T

How the hell do you manage to not get lynched living in TN? You are hands down one of the two or three most sensible people I have ever encountered on the Intertubes. Living amongst cave-dwellers, intellectually speaking, has to wear you down and I can't imagine how you manage it.

BTW, if you haven't read the late Tony Judt's "Ill Fares The Land" please do.It made me cry with virtually every page. What could have been.......

Also, Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" is one of the smartest and funniest things I have ever read. The opium of the masses, indeed.

Feel free to PM me via DU with a reading list. I sometimes think I am the last sane person in the world until I read your posts or those of Octafish.

Cheers!

[white_wolf]

23. Hey I'm sane and in TN.

Seriously though I'm not sure how either of us does it. TN is seriously one of the most backwards places in the country. However, I'm at UT where there actually is a progressive student group there with a decent segment of Marxists so at least it's not all bad.

[socialist_n_TN]

26. You were defended wolf........

:). See my post below. Take heart comrades, we ARE growing. Slowly, yes, but it IS happening.

[socialist_n_TN]

24. LOL! It's that Zen calm I have cultivated through

the decades hifi. :rofl: And you know the thing of it is, I don't shy away from them. I flat out TOLD Marsha Blackburn's aide that I was a socialist one day at one of her book signings that I happened to wander by. The aide swallowed her tongue and said something like, "Well it takes all kinds." Jim Cooper wasn't happy with me either the day of my meeting with him. :) So I'm a nonpartisan curmurgeon.

You are the SECOND person who's judgement I trust that has recommended that book, so that means I'll HAVE to check it out.

And take heart my friend. There are a few more of us on the boards other than me, you, and Octafish. Pay attention to blind pig, white_wolf, starry messenger, TBF, the Big V (in this thread-he's new, :) but you can tell he's a comradely soul), just about everybody that's posted in this Chavez thread so far actually, and a BUNCH more that I can't think of off the top of my head and to whom I apoligize to for the omission. YOU guys are the ones who keep ME sane.

BTW, I'm finishing up a new 3 song music project that I'd love for you to be able to check out. All three songs are HIGHLY political and STRONGLY leftist. I'd hope that you would like them.

[white_wolf]

28. I'd like to add Zorra to that list.

She isn't a Marxist, but she makes a lot of sense in her posts and is committed to getting rid of the plutocracy.

[socialist_n_TN]

31. I agree. There are a BUNCH I forgot.......

Growing, yes we are. :)

[hifiguy]

41. I ALWAYS read everything White Wolf and blindpig post

Dog knows there are few enough voices of rationality and sanity out there. I too am a nondenominational (and proudly atheistic) grump and curmudgeon. Like Joe Bageant and Hunter S. Thompson, I like to think I have a hair-trigger BS detector and can see when people are being chumped. I used to laugh in college and law school when profs told me they were "structural Marxists." I ain't laughing any more. They were right then and they are right now. While I don't buy Marx's prescriptions - they are far too utopian and fail to take account of the essential nastiness of the basic nature of many humans - his description and analysis of the nature of capitalism is proved more and more each day.

PM me with a reading list. I need to learn more. Which is what differentiates the leftist from the right winger - the desire to learn more and have our beliefs challenged by objective facts. Unfortunately for reichwindgers, facts almost always have a leftish bias.

:toast:

[socialist_n_TN]

50. I'll PM you some things that I've enjoyed

and learned from through the years.

[hifiguy]

52. Thanks!!

:hi:

[hifiguy]

55. Somehow I missed that you are a musician

in this post. I've been a bassist for nearly 40 years. Proggy - my electric heroes are Robert Fripp and Jaco Pastorius - and I am not fond of simplicity. Best of luck and cheers! :toast:

[socialist_n_TN]

57. Oh well, they are simple tunes

I started out as mostly a lyricist and a bass player. I've added skills through the years, but I'm not a jazz player. The most complicated think I do as a bassist is reggae. That I DO well. We interacted in another thread about bassists, so I remembered you being one. :)

If you wanted to put me in a category, it would be singer-songwriter. The lyric is the most important part of my tunes. And these lyrics, I'm REALLY proud of. :)

[joshcryer]

64. I didn't want to join a *third* topic on Chavez in one day...

But did you know that Chavizmo populist policies pales in comparison to other track records in Latin America?

Would you prefer the populist agenda even if it wasn't as efficient at bringing people out of poverty and if it resulted in more crime?

[WinkyDink]

14. He's already 16,694 apts ahead of the United States govt, is he not?

[joshcryer]

60. The United States has a housing surplus of over 2 million.

Sadly many of those homes are in highly urbanized areas and people may not be able to find a job in those areas. It's a prime time to start ones own business and go buy a cheap house that has lost 80% of its value (and once the houses are bought back up by the bankers / investors they'll double their value in a year or two, so it's really a prime time, this year and next year).

[WinkyDink]

69. The US surplus isn't govt housing.

[indurancevile]

73. It also has nearly a million homeless people on any given night.

[joshcryer]

80. Yep, and I wish we could get people motivated enough to squat in those houses.

There's nothing the government could do outside of trying its damnedest to convince them to sign a piece of paper handing over their rights. But I'm cynical these days and when I say "abolish rent" I get mocked, etc, so I generally avoid such discussions.

[Dreamer Tatum]

16. He did just say he was building more prisons.

That's probably what he meant.

[sabrina 1]

17. Lol, you finally got here! I was getting worried!

That's pretty creative. But weren't people criticizing him just a few weeks ago for 'doing nothing about crime'?

[Dreamer Tatum]

20. Interesting. "Build more prisons" to deal with crime is usually ridiculed by progressives.

Until St. Hugo does it, that is...

[sabrina 1]

22. Um, no, you misunderstood. My point was that those who

hate Chavez, mostly they are on the right and always have been, are big advocates of 'law and order' which is why they are going after him on crime, just as they do here. So, why would they be complaining about him doing something they love, building prisons??

Which is why I said that while it is a creative attempt to slam him when it's hard to slam someone for providing housing for the poor, and those who normally slam Chavez are on the far right in Ven., it really isn't something that they can use against him and still claim he is 'doing nothing about crime'. He's clever, I wouldn't be surprised if that is why he is talking about building more prisons. The way Clinton always stole Republican ideas.

[joshcryer]

66. There is hardly any correlation between prison population and crime, that's nonsense!

Whoever would hold that position would be doing so from a purely ignorant perspective!

They're talking about building more prisons because the prisons they have are over populated and that leads to bad living conditions for the prisoners. Frankly I see no need for prisons if you have vast oil wealth you can pay to have people rehabilitated and to bring up the GDP and overall wealth of a society.

[Judi Lynn]

71. And you could accomplish this deep level, wide-spread change affecting the lives of so many,

restructing Venezuelan life in 12 years, when it took continual exploitation with the payoff only for the wealthy elite, at the horrendous expense of the vast majority for ages before he came into office.

That really makes so much sense, by all means.

That might sell at another message board, but Democrats wouldn't believe it for a split second.

[joshcryer]

72. Remember when the Democrats had the House, Senate, and the Presidency? New Deal, remember?

Yes, you can do a lot if you have the power Chavez has held for so long, particularly decree powers.

What I do find interesting is the moving of goal posts and the effective minimizing of the Chavismo ability to do anything. When Chavez took office and when the wealthy elite were in power, oil was around $20 a barrel. It's now at over $100 a barrel. Absolute windfall the country gets and the Chavistas get praise for mediocrity.

[EFerrari]

19. Still waiting for your predicted bloodbath of 2006.

lol

[Dreamer Tatum]

21. I'm sure there's been a bloodbath every year...we just don't hear about it.

Heaven knows how many dissidents St. Hugo has disappeared on an annual basis.

[white_wolf]

25. The U.S. has no room to talk about political prisoners.

Or are things like Gitmo fine as long as it is done by right wing capitalist powers, not that I have seen any evidence of anything approaching the level of Gitmo in Venezuela.

[Dreamer Tatum]

30. I'm not the US, I'm me, and I will talk about whatever the F I choose, thank you. nt

[Forkboy]

34. I love when you puff out your chest.

Good comedy is rare these days.

[white_wolf]

36. Well do you have any evidence to support your attack on Chavez?

Because I have plenty to support my attack on our government's polices.

[Dreamer Tatum]

39. Attack on Chavez? I pointed out what he said. That's all.

As for you, knock yourself out about US policies. One way I know defenders of demagogues have nothing is when they insist on drawing comparisons.

[EFerrari]

79. You mean the oligarchy that owns the media is covering up for him?

LOL

[hifiguy]

54. Nothing this pinhead DINO predicts ever comes to pass

and a big shout out to Sabrina! You rock. :hi: :loveya:

[socialist_n_TN]

29. I think you're confusing Comrade Hugo with the

USA prison/industrial/judicial complex. :)

[Dreamer Tatum]

32. So, that was someone else who said he was bulding more prisons?

http://news.yahoo.com/venezuelas-chavez-boost-prison-construction-123254823.html

Without even trying, there's a source.

(I'm sure it's "RW", however. :eyes:)

[socialist_n_TN]

33. Which country incarcerates a higher percentage of

it's population?

[Dreamer Tatum]

35. If Venezuela needs more prisons, it's not a good time to compare.

Let's see how many St. Hugo puts away first, then we'll compare.

[socialist_n_TN]

37. Well considering we have had a higher

incarceration rate for the last 30 years or more than anybody else in the world, BY FAR, I don't think I'll have to worry about losing the argument.

[Dreamer Tatum]

40. So as long as Hugo stays behind us, who cares who and how many he tucks away, huh?

Heh. God, I love Chavez worshippers.

[socialist_n_TN]

43. Well how many homes for the homeless is

the American government building? As opposed to prisons? Basically, w

hat you're saying is that as long as the Chevez government PLANS to build more prisons and POTENTIALLY incarcerate more people IN THE FUTURE, that's worse than what the USA is DOING CURRENTLY and HAS been doing for the last 3 or 4 decades huh?

Okay.

[Dreamer Tatum]

45. I never compared the two regimes...you did.

Draw whatever comparisons you like. I'm indifferent to them.

I think that if Venezuela needs more prisons, it should build them. If Venezuela needs more housing, it should build it.

Pretty simple. I make a joke, and the League of the Thin-Skinned jump my shit faster than if I said something negative about Neil Peart. Jesus.

[socialist_n_TN]

49. Hell, I WAS being lighthearted.......

And the original post I commented on was a potentially good thing for Venezuela. You were the one that started bringing in negatives. I just pointed out that our country has absolutely NO room to talk.

But no worries mate! We'll agree to disagree and leave it at that. :)

[joshcryer]

62. Nah, US prison population growth is around .2% a year. Venezuela is 10% a year.

It doubled in the past decade.

[indurancevile]

74. 1/4 of the world's prisoners live in the usa. So i guess Venezuela has a bit of catch-up.

According to this, Venezuela's incarceration rate is about the same as Italy's and lower than Canada's, Australia's, the UK's, China's, Luxembourg's, Hungary, Turkey, Costa Rica, Brazil, Singapore, Puerto Rico, Thailand, Panama, Netherland Antilles, Latvia, Ukraine, US & British Virgin Islands, & of course Russia & the US.

The data was accessed in 2011 so it would seem to be up to date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

[Judi Lynn]

75. Great investment of some search time, indurancevile! Thanks for the facts.

Welcome to D.U., absolutely. :hi:

[joshcryer]

76. Incarceration rate doesn't give you the full picture for a given administration, imo.

If Chavez inherited a large incarceration rate he shouldn't be blamed for the past rates and should be judged on how he handles it in the future. Under his administration the population has skyrocketed: http://www.eluniversal.com/2011/06/24/prison-population-in-venezuela-up-110-percent-since-2007.shtml

[hifiguy]

42. In all seriousness

Why are you here? You constantly pee on the campfires of anyone who advocates social justice. What is your raison d'etre anyway?

[Dreamer Tatum]

44. Social justice? I'm all for it. I just don't like Hugo Chavez.

I made a joke, and the lickspittles jumped me. I fired back. Pretty simple.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dreamer Tatum]

47. Masters? Would love to know who my masters are. nt

[hifiguy]

48. That much is obvious to the rest of us

who endure your postings. Wake up.

[Dreamer Tatum]

53. Know what, Karl? I don't serve "masters." I AM a "master."

Playtime is over. Good luck with your muddled Marxism, folks.

And don't trip over each other to move to your socialist paradises.

Out.

[hifiguy]

56. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. I don't want ass prints on my door.

[joshcryer]

65. I found the entire exchange rather pointless, but I don't think you've established that.

You've not established that the poster in question has a "master," for instance. Ad hominems tend to be the last refuge of a scoundrel. I ignore them usually when they're directed at me. I've been called a right winger plenty of times simply for disagreeing with Chavismo policies.

[white_wolf]

67. You are an anarchist right?

I disagree with you on a lot including your views on Chavez and the poster in question, but I'm not sure why an anarchist would be considered a right winger.

[joshcryer]

70. Yep, changed my avatar.

Can you guess? (Don't use TinEye!)

But yes, I consider myself an anarchist, and yes we do sometimes have a perceived overlap with right wingers, for instance, an anarchist might be against the welfare state, now you and I both know that anarchists are socialists (so we're all for the common equality and wellbeing of societies individuals), but if we say we don't like the welfare state we get slammed, we have to be more clear and then people slam us anyway. I usually keep my anarchist ideas out of discussions for that very reason.

But that can also backfire, too. I've said in this thread that private contractors have been more effective than Chavez' government at creating homes. However, for me, that is not an indictment of socialism, or praise of the "free market" it is explicitly an indictment of statism and corruption. Miranda's housing boon is specifically because the people were given incentives to work on their homes and they did it as a community (kinda like Habitat for Humanity only without the garbage mortgage rates). Chavistas go "here you'll get a free house!"

Saying "private contractors are better than Chavez's government" is easily spun as right wing.

[lib2DaBone]

18. I believe life is better... if you don't spend all your GDP on War...

Having said that.. another non-starter... We taught the Afghans how to Bankrupt Russia.

Now.. we are mired down in Afghanistan... errr DUH?...... and no one in Washington gets it... let alone Mr. Obama?

[Forkboy]

38. Probably means it, but it's a long shot, like Obama curing child hunger by 2015.

[bluestate10]

61. Hot air. He has been in power for around a decade. Mountains of money

has flowed into his pockets from his country's oil wealth. If Chavez wanted to help the poor in his country, he could have built 4 million homes by now.

[octothorpe]

77. I don't think that is necessarily true...

First off, I don't know if your statement that Chavez is pocketing large sums of his country's wealth or not... Let's assume it is true and there is enough money being squandered that could have went to build 4 million homes. It's been my understanding that there are some major issues with a lack of building space in various cities around Venezuela. So basically building anything requires tearing down neighborhoods to make room for newer structures. Which I'm sure they do. However, that obviously takes time since you can't uproot millions of people at a time and put them in new or temporary living situations. They could also build new cities in less built up areas, but wouldn't that result in those ghost cities that have been popping up around China? I would think the only way massive relation of the population would work is for them to build up industry in less developed parts of the country and have a natural migration of people.

I dunno, I'm pretty much talking out of my ass. I'm sure someone smarter than me can point out some flaws in my reasoning. What I said also hinges on there being a true lack of usable land around Venezuela population centers.

[joshcryer]

81. There's no transparency and the money is unaccounted for. The opposition demands accountablity...

...and they're slandered as right wing (nevermind the fact that a huge portion of MUD is left wing).

The housing deficit that the article is talking about is due to flooding and inadequate housing construction over the past decade, they don't need to tear down neighborhoods to make room for newer structures.

What happened was that the construction companies were nationalized, rather than doing like Chile and regulating the hell out of them, they simply said "we'll control them." They were corrupt to the core before the nationalization but I don't see any real moves to make them less corrupt after the fact. There are still http://www.domusweb.it/en/architecture/the-tower-of-david/">unfinished buildings in Venezuela. We know this is true because Venezuela has http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9NP719O1.htm">arrested these state run officials for being corrupt, but had they looked at the long term picture it would've been wiser to simply regulate and arrest the private individuals who broke the law, as opposed to bringing the corruption into the government. You look at PDVSA (Venezuela's state run oil company) and it's http://www.latinpetroleum.com/new/blogdetail.php?blogid=311">accountability. Recently Chavez http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFN2611195220110526">fired top officials in PDVSA.

The problem for them is that Venezuela has a constitutional right to private property, so you have to recompense the people fairly and equitably (including the private owners from before the Chavista revolution), tied with the corruption that invariably happens when you bring in the private specialists into the government, I think you're open to a lot of bad stuff and mismanagement. You look at Miranda where 6500 houses were built in 2010, that's one state in the entire country, where most of the houses were built with Venezuelan hands doing private contracts. Because it's open, transparent, and the people want to be a part of it, they accomplished the job. Meanwhile Chavista's are getting http://en.mercopress.com/2011/03/17/china-will-finance-and-build-20.000-housing-units-in-venezuela">Chinese contractors to build houses for them.

[EFerrari]

78. Chavez has reduced poverty by half and extreme poverty by 75%.

And no one in the virulent opposition has ever been able to find even a hint of corruption on him but thanks for playing.

[fascisthunter]

82. did you see post 78?

[joshcryer]

63. I personally think it's possible, but we'll see. Henrique Capriles is adored by 'Mirandinos'...

...and if the Venezuelan government can't get him disqualified for running for the Presidency like they did with other candidates, his housing reforms in Miranda will go a long way in his election bid. Certainly Chavez as a candidate has a lot to worry about in that regard if he cannot build the houses at the rate Capriles has done in Miranda using private contractors (Venezuelan, mind you).

[classysassy]

68. Why demean Chavez?

How many wars has he started since he took office?,he sold heating oil at reduced prices to Americans in New England when our greedy,crooked oily thugs were gouging Americans.He has done more for the poor in his country than any of our so called compassionate presidents and our bribed congress.Wealthy Americans hate him because there is socialism in his politics and the wealthy hate socialism because they will have to share their ill gotten loot.Our brainwashed public have been lied to by the likes of Rush and Fox news and we have bought into the lies.Viva Chavez and compassion for the needy,down with greed.