Unless you - - and that means YOU - are willing to get rid of the huge military - - we'll be broke

[Taverner]

Yes I am talking to you, Liberal. You so-called Progressive.

You who wants to keep all these great social programs that make us the envy of the world, but still wants to keep our bloated military, our hundreds of overseas military bases, our bloated NSA and CIA with its black budgets, our huge imperial presence in the world. You say "Oh the world is a dangerous place." You say "Oh we need to keep all those soldiers employed." And then you shrug and walk off when something like Medicare of Social Security is cut. You're no better than the Republicans.

Look - right now there is no doubt about it - we are an empire. Complete with bases in almost every country, even countries with their own perfectly capable defense forces. Like the UK. Why do we need a base in Scotland? Why do we still need bases in Germany? Why do we still need a base in Okinawa?

And yes, these bases cost us BILLIONS. Not millions, not thousands, but BILLIONS. And exactly what good is it doing us? GIs get to party in Berlin? Our forces get to rape children in Japan and get off scot free?

And the NSA...the CIA...huge departments with huge unaccounted-for budgets, with no oversight, no audits.

"Oh but that mean bad Bin Laden is going to get us! And our DOG too!" you shriek in tandem with Fox news. Well I got news for you, buddy. Bin Laden is dead. Game over. Time to return to your regularly scheduled program.

We have four wars going on right now: Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Afghanistan (and Pakistan, makes five) and the War on Drugs makes six. And you know what? A presidential commission just determined that pot, a big target of the War on Drugs, has no medical value and so the recommendation is to go after it as if it were heroin being injected into blonde, pretty white kids.

All of this costs money. Money that could be used to pay for Social Security, for Medicare, for job trainings, HELL - for small business loans if you want to get all Horatio Alger on me.

But when I suggest we cut these failed programs, you shake your head and say I'm "unrealistic." You know who's unrealistic? YOU. You, saying its better for us to keep these overseas bases that cost billions and jettison Social Security. You who say we should keep up the war on drugs, but get rid of Medicare.

You who buys the bullshit the Government gives us time and time again, because you're a sensible little fucking woodchuck.

There is absolutely nothing sensible about endless war, occupation and empire. That is, unless you happen to be an apex predator in the capitalist system. That is, unless you'd like to see every facet of the world bow before American hegemony. And guess what, you are NOT an apex predator. You are down here, with the rest of us, fighting for crumbs.

It's about time you acted like it.

[lunatica]

1. Who is this 'you' you're addressing yourself to?

I'm a Progressive to the point of being a Socialist at heart and I'm against all wars. Period.

[Taverner]

2. Then obviously, this is not about you

But I have seen time and time again, that the military is "off limits"

And we are to keep it that way, if we are to be taken seriously

The folks who say that - that's WHO I'm directing my anger

[lunatica]

4. How many DUers do you think are warmongers?

I don't read all the posts but I can't remember any DUer who wants wars.

[Taverner]

9. Let me share you a Hermann Goering quote:

Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

[lunatica]

17. What does this have to do with your OP?

You are addressing yourself to us, not to the government's propagandists. You are calling us names.

[MineralMan]

26. It's a gratuitous attempt to tie us somehow to Nazi Germany.

Not a well done attempt, but...

[izquierdista]

29. Just because Goering was a Nazi

Doesn't mean he lied all the time. That quote of his, given while he was sitting in a cell in Nuremburg, was one of the most lucid, cogent explanations of how powerful people manipulate the masses of all times. Quite a bit shorter and to the point than Marx, and not much different in substance. It was as if, knowing he was going to the gallows, he finally fessed up to the truth and admitted 23 years of lying.

[PassingFair]

20. I'm pretty sure you never heard that sentiment from a "Progressive".

But "Progressive" is really undefined,
you only know what it means in personal terms.

No one that I KNOW who professes to being a
"Progressive" would say that military cuts are
"off the table"...

But I live in the midwest, so maybe your political
landscape and definitions are different.

[Taverner]

34. I have actually

In fact I have met progressives who are all against forced militarization except in the cases of (Israel/Palestine/USA/UK/Russia/USSR/etc...)

[sad sally]

32. As evidenced in the bloated defense spending bill approved last week.

"In the midst of a serious discussion about our nation's debt crisis, House Republicans demonstrated responsible leadership that sets priorities and does not jeopardize our national security interests and our nation's ongoing military efforts," Rep. Tom Price, R-Ga., chairman of the House Republican Policy Committee, said in a statement.

But Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass, scoffed at the suggestion that "everything is on the table" in budget negotiations between the Obama administration and congressional leaders. "The military budget is not on the table," he said. "The military is at the table, and it is eating everybody else's lunch."

[krabigirl]

3. Lol, yeah, I've been willing since about the early 90s but ok.

Ps no corporate democrat or republican will ever cut the military. Ever. A kucinich type democrat or a libertarian like Paul or Johnson would be e only types that would even try, and even then, they would fail unless congress is also replaced by those types.

[Taverner]

5. Well, like I said earlier, this song ain't about you...

I'm just sick of sensible woodchucks here on DU

[krabigirl]

6. Hehe

[MineralMan]

14. Hmm...

Even those people want to see the wars over, my DU friend. You're on the wrong track with this one. Do you understand what it will take to make that happen? What's your plan to do that? I understand what it will take, and I've been working on that for years.

You can't just wish for something, Taverner. You have to make it happen, and in the USA, there's only one way to do that. 2012 is just around the corner.

[Electric Monk]

21. I've got an idea: Let's kill Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, then bring the troops home

The goalposts really have shifted, haven't they?

[MineralMan]

25. They haven't shifted, really. The United States always seems to

try to get out of stupid wars in a way that is supposed to leave things better. It never works, really. We screwed up big time in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we all know that. They'll both revert to their old ways as soon as we're going. But, we keep trying to remake them in an image that is unrealistic.

If we pull out quickly, it will hasten that reversion. If we pull out slowly, it will still happen, but we'll have tried. That's what's going on. It's stupid. It won't work, but that's our way. I don't expect a quick withdrawal, even though I'd be very, very happy if it occurred. It's just very, very unlikely to happen.

So, I turn my attention to other things, since I can do fuck-all about what will happen in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are plenty of other things to work on.

[sad sally]

33. Whoa! Didn't you hear there's a new bad man in town? Moammar is his name

and we won't be happy until he's dead and buried at sea - don't need no more stinking war criminal trials.

Besides, we got all these fancy drone predators we need to keep killing people with.

Oh yeah, and this waring stuff is real good business for rehab docs and mental health fixers.

:sarcasm:

[MineralMan]

7. "you're a sensible little fucking woodchuck"

That reference is probably a little too old to make much of an impact, there, Taverner.

Who is it on DU who you think wants to see the wars continue? I haven't met anyone like that here.

A good strong rant, though.

Now, figure out how to get the people who agree with you elected to the Congress, and we'll be on the right track. What's your plan for that?

[Taverner]

11. Problem with congress is that they agree with us in the election...

Then suddenly change their minds when shown their office in the Rayburn building...

[MineralMan]

15. Not my congressperson. Not my Senator.

I can't speak for yours. I know exactly where mine stand. I asked them and they convinced me. That's why they got my support.

How about yours? Isn't there something you need to be doing about yours? 2012 is looming.

[buddysmellgood]

8. Military spending brought down the soviet union. It will ruin us too.

[Curmudgeoness]

10. It ain't me babe.

I am not a sensible little fucking woodchuck.

And this is no way to make friends!

[Taverner]

13. Bah - if you want friends get a dog

:P

Maybe we need to start a group - Unsensible Woodchucks of America?

[MineralMan]

16. No. If you want to accomplish something, you're going to need

friends - lots of friends. It is only through the actions of many that changes are made.

[Curmudgeoness]

23. Chuckle. nt

[Lone_Star_Dem]

12. We could look to Russia for some lessons regarding over spending on military.

Of course we won't, but we should.

[Taverner]

30. One would think at least somebody in government paid attention in 91

But paying attention requires more than we can ask of our officials, I guess...

[pscot]

18. Bah! War is a manly pursuit

and it build strength of character; something this country is sadly lacking. Plus it keeps population in check.(I'm just trying to help out here.)

[LiberalAndProud]

19. We've been swiftboated.

Because we've been painted as "weak on defense" we can't be. I want to gut the military budget, give them just enough to bring the troops home. I can't find the road to that destination because there are no leaders to move us in that direction. The one thing that is not up for debate is the military budget. As much as the MIC wants and more than they need is the mantra, and if they don't need enough we'll start another war.

Help me, because I believe this is by design. Our country will be destroyed from within by these policies and that is so ironic it is frightening. Our enemies need do nothing. They can simply sit back and watch as our daring democratic experiment consumes itself.

Farewell to NASA. Farewell to science. Farewell to our future.

[Aerows]

22. No arguments here

We are doomed if we don't get run-away military spending under control and stop with these adventures in money wasting in MENA

[Marr]

24. Now wait a minute. We need a large military

so we can protect those foreign sites where your job was shipped off to. That Ivy League legacy prick who laid you off wants a bigger boat next year. Think of others for a moment, will you? And hey-- be sure to send your kid to the recruiter as soon as he/she is old enough.

[Taverner]

31. :)

[MH1]

27. Jettison the drug war for starters, and bloated unwanted weapons programs. Then raise taxes ...

and create universal national service (NOT only military service, include many other civic support activities), with a higher bar for extended service careers.

Use sin taxes copiously to help raise revenue. (Prioritize the revenue to programs that mitigate the negative consequences of the 'sin', such as health care.)

Keep SS, Medicare, and Medicaid, and pay doctors better. Set standards for medical care and require some participation by all doctors in Medicare/Medicaid as a license requirement.

Set taxes at whatever level is necessary to support a just and humane society.

It really wouldn't be that hard if politicians (and their constituents) stopped trying to protect their own pieces of the pie and instead really focused on solving the problem and creating a just society.

[phasma ex machina]

28. deleted

[Bluenorthwest]

35. John and Yoko said it without the baggae. Bag One.

War is over if you want it.