A Failed Mental Health System - that's what I think this really was

[Duer 157099]

From reading his writings, it seems pretty clear to me that this guy needed some serious mental health care.

Shall we bet on whether he was getting any? Or enough?

[customerserviceguy]

1. When we are slow to institutionalize

we turn the streets into our insane asylums. We're not willing to put away all of the crazies, either from a civil rights standpoint, or certainly financially.

[justiceischeap]

2. If he is indeed mentally ill, it makes a huge argument FOR health care reform (eom)

[LisaL]

8. If all the previous cases didn't do it, I think it's a safe bet nothing

will.

[seabeyond]

the hate talkers are going to effect these people. not the rational. nt

[hedgehog]

7. For a lot of diseases, the phrase is that nature loads the gun, and

nurture fires it.

Usually, this phrase is applied to lupus or rheumatoid arthritis, but I think it applies here as well.

[hedgehog]

3. Agreed 100% - andby the way - irony alert -

Healthcare Bill Includes Landmark Expansion of Addiction and Mental Illness Coverage

http://lacpolicyblog.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/healthcare-bill-includes-landmark-expansion-of-addiction-and-mental-illness-coverage/


If his parents have insurance, he would have been covered on their policy since January 1. It's not clear to me whether all policies now have to include coverage for treatment of mental illness or not yet.

[Lint Head]

4. He was in Arizona. I doubt it,

[cali]

5. that may well be part of it.

[Catherina]

6. a fucked up country too. There's no reason to have as many mentally unbalanced

people as we do.

All very sad. Shameful too.

We have plenty of money to maim and cripple people all over the globe but when it comes to caring for our own citizens, our own taxpayers and children of taxpayers, not a penny to be found.

[elocs]

9. It's not always that easy and I have dealt with the mental health system.

The mentally ill person has to want help and to participate in their treatment and to take their medications. That does not always happen and as poor as the system may be they can not force a mentally ill person into treat or to take their meds unless it is proven that they are are danger to themselves or others.

[JohnnyLib2]

20. Absolutely true. And --

he or others could have (had) extremely concerned family members; they could not do much more than obtain a warrant for a brief detainment and evaluation. And then he'd be home.....

[jobycom]

10. The ramblings reminded me of Ted Kazynski's.

The Unibomber, in case people forgot. He had that same sort of pseudo-intellectual babble that almost says something, but not quite. It's like his brain works on a logical schematic that doesn't quite connect to the outside world. I could kind of get what he was talking about with the talk of a new currency and a proper grammar, sort of like a metaphor, but it seems like he's stuck on the process of thought, and not the outcome. I don't know if I'm explaining that well. It's like he's caught up in how he thinks instead of what he thinks. And he's certain he's brilliant, which is another sign of a disconnect.

To me that seems like a type of mental illness, but I'm not sure exactly what kind. Maybe schizophrenia, maybe some form of extreme social disorder... I don't know, but he doesn't sound healthy.

Just my thoughts. Not an expert or anything.

[Duer 157099]

12. His reference to "conscience" dreaming

was confusing, especially when he follows that up with a rant about literacy.

[jobycom]

35. At first I thought he meant "conscious," but reading the rest of his stuff

maybe conscience dreaming has some meaning to him. That's what I'm talking about, though. He says stuff that he probably thinks is profound, even if it means nothing, or could be said better if there is some meaning. All the silliness about creating the reality with the definitions he gave and about dreaming and sleeping seemed pretty banal, like someone who is so used to believing what he thinks that he never pays attention to anyone else. That fits the profile of someone who could open fire on a crowd, too--complete detachment from people and from any reality outside his head.

[Duer 157099]

37. I'm pretty sure he did mean conscious

What really irked me is this guy on with Keith right now who just commented on this and SOMEHOW came up with David Icke's name as a "right-wing" wacko that is associated with "conscious" dreaming!! W.T.F.????

I know what "conscious" dreaming is, and there's no fuckin' way it is "right wing" AT ALL. :mad:

[Warren Stupidity]

11. teabug nut inspired by two years of deliberate violent rhetoric

This was a political act and an act of terrorism, 'he's a nut' is a distraction from what just happened.

[Duer 157099]

15. I think it was his bid for attention

I don't see any evidence yet that this was politically motivated.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. you don't?

seriously?

[Duer 157099]

25. Yes, seriously. If anything, he seems like a libertarian.

He seems to not be religious, so most likely wouldn't really identify with the right-wing christian tea partiers.

Until I see some evidence.

[emilyg]

27. Yes - very seriously.

[Barack_America]

13. Possibly.

But we don't have any evidence that either he or his family sought mental health assistance.

[Very_Boring_Name]

14. The problem is you can't force people to seek treatment for being a little crazy

the guy doesn't seem to have been violent in the past, just very paranoid. And extreme paranoia is not necessarily a sign of violence. Locking people up or forcing them to get treatment because they're paranoid seems like a dangerous road to go down.

[Duer 157099]

16. That's true, of course. But the question of him having the gun comes up.

Someone can be a little bit crazy, but once they arm themselves, it should raise eyebrows, at least.

[Very_Boring_Name]

18. But how do you draw the line on "crazy"?

As much as I don't care for it, there's still a second amendment. And you can't take away a constitutional right from people just because they act weird. It's perfectly legal to act weird, or crazy. It's perfectly legal to BE crazy. The line needs to be drawn at VIOLENT crazy. There was no indication whatsoever of any signs that this guy could get violent.

[Duer 157099]

23. I agree, it's not a simple issue. n/t

[Brooklyns_Finest]

17. Choice

Unless he had a violent past, no one could have forced him to seek treatment. Apparently, he comes from a relatively well of family, so cost should not have been an issue either.

[Duer 157099]

19. And of course, especially in wealthy families, stigma is their issue

Who knows that the situation was, obviously none of us know yet.

But it's clear that he needed help of some sort, and wasn't getting it, for whatever reason. This is an issue that every society needs to deal with.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

26. Stigma?

Really? I thought that would be an issue that would prevent working class or immigrants from seeking therapy, not the affluent.

[Duer 157099]

28. Both. But in the case of wealthy, they would have the option.

Lots of poorer people can't even consider getting help unless the situation is really, really dire and overt.

[seabeyond]

22. didnt he and parents live in gated community. not cheap. not gonna assume he didnt have access to

care

[Jamastiene]

24. There are many many mentally ill people who do not kill people.

The failure is not the mental health system. The failure is the laws that do not allow the people around violent people to do something before something like this happens. Time and again, I have heard police say there is nothing they can do until someone has already harmed or killed themselves or others.

There is no reason a person who is violent, yet hasn't killed anyone cannot be taken to a mental health facility and screened and watched for a few days if they they are showing signs they are getting ready to do something like this...and most of the time, they are showing signs they plan to do something hideous.

But, there are many many mentally ill people in this world who are conflicted, yes, but harmless, no. I would not phrase what you said in such broad terms.

[elocs]

30. The mentally ill are far, far, far more likely to be the victims of crime than criminals.

But with the millions of people suffering from mental illness (and they do suffer) there are those who will commit violent and horrible crimes.

There are laws that do work imperfectly, but the mental health system is overwhelmed. My 19 year old goddaughter who is a paranoid schizophrenic and has been pretty much living with me for the last 6 months (ironically from today) and she spent most of last June in 2 different mental hospitals. In the year and a half previous to that she was hospitalized 15 different times at 12 different hospitals in the Chicago area. She was always bounced to wherever they had an available bed and that was rarely at the place of her last hospitalization.

Insurance? Yes, her mother had insurance and she is a professional at one of Chicago's most prominent hospitals. Ironically her daughter was never allowed to be at that hospital. Her care nearly bankrupted her middle class family. No consistency or continuity of care.

Laws? Yes the laws worked and the police came to take her away when call (I was a witness to the first incident, her first major psychotic breakdown, and they would take her to the psych ward. One time when she was picked up the cop wanted to throw her in jail be his parter argued on her behalf that she needed to go to the hospital and that's where she went. The trouble is that the care is only short term, for a few weeks at most, and then she was sent home because there were no long term care situations for her.

So a lot of things are not working right and sometimes those who suffer from mental illness are violent.

[eilen]

34. I have a family member who has also had

a horrible progression of mental illness and his mother is absolutely exhausted with dealing not only with his needs but the advocacy needed to make sure he is treated appropriately. I don't know if she can ever retire. The group homes in Florida are a joke. There is no transition --like a supervised living situation between group home and independent living. They should have never dismantled the mental illness residential homes/hospitals/asylums.

[elocs]

36. Never having had any kids at all these past 6 months have been tough for me.

All of a sudden at age 58 I not only have a 19 year old teenager, but one who is also a paranoid schizophrenic. But I am her absolute last chance, so I had to give it a shot. It is really hard and although I lost my job in October I have had to spend most of the last 2 months looking after her and making sure she is ok, making sure she is getting to her appointments, taking her meds, getting to school, going to work.

When you are a parent, over the years it is like a muscle that you develop and gets stronger so even when things get tough you at least have the muscles that are used to dealing with it. I really had no parent muscles developed and this has been a hard weight to handle. The stress has been very tough.

[eilen]

38. My MIL did end up getting therapy for herself

and she was helped by a support group. There may be support groups for families in your area, if so-- check into it. They often have resources and strategies that can help you.

[SOS]

41. You are an inspiration

My 84 y.o. father was hit by a car in November.
It has been difficult being his only relative to help him through this.

Years ago, while working as a gardener, a woman, who was working as a nurse tending to an elderly patient, said to me:
"We have the best jobs in the world"
I was puzzled and asked her "How so"?
She replied "We are the caretakers. We who care for life are the luckiest of all."

I never forget those words.

All the best to you and your daughter.

[DawgHouse]

39. I've experienced the same thing. What you've written is absolutely true. n/t

[HereSince1628]

31. True, the mentally ill commit fewer violent acts than drunks and drug users

And those stats are available through various federal agencies as well as NAMI.

Not denying that mentally ill commit violent acts, or that this killer might have been
mentally ill, since at any given time a rather large fraction of the general population meets the
criteria of at least one mental illness.

Just saying that the mentally ill move around us all the time and we never notice them, because they are for the most part remarkably just like us.

[femrap]

29. I'm beginning to think that

our culture needs to test all 21 year-old males to see if they're worth more than the trouble they can cause.

[eilen]

32. Are you being sarcastic? If not, that is really offensive. nt

[femrap]

40. The guy can't get in the military.

His classmates say he was 'troubled.' I guess because this nation has no priority for the mental health of young men, they will continue to wreak havoc. That age is when schizophrenia develops...and it attacks young men in much higher ratios than females.

If someone can't get into the army, a HUGE RED FLAG should be raised. Hell, they take felons now.

Of course the USofA has no money for such an analysis of mental health.....we're spending it all on death and destruction overseas. Oh....and on prisons filled with kids who smoked pot.

Our culture sucks. Does that offend you, too?

[spanone]

33. they are talking about an accomplice...this may be more perverse than first thought