Those imported cars built by workers who don't contribute to SS and Medicare really bit our ass

[NNN0LHI]

Took a little time but it eventually caught up with us didn't it?

Seemed like a good idea at the time but was it?

And no I don't blame President Obama for this.

I blame the fools driving that imported crap.

You fucked up! Screwed yourself and the next generation real good.

I seen this coming ten years ago and and said so but no one wanted to hear it. All they wanted to talk about was their new Prius. Now the real cost of those imports is becoming apparent.

Don

[Fumesucker]

1. I blame the management of the domestic auto companies..

Who decided in the early seventies that the customer should be the final only quality control station.

They also totally ignored the market for a high quality small car and left that market niche for the imports to completely dominate for at least a decade and more like three.

But we've had this argument before, I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine.

:hi:

[NNN0LHI]

6. Higher quality, eh?

Ever notice when we put the same level of scrutiny for quality on the workers that wanted better quality they become hysterical?

I have noticed this phenomena. Not only could they not withstand the same level of scrutiny for quality on their own jobs, we found out a lot of those folks were outright corrupt. So who is kidding who?

:hi:

Don

[Fumesucker]

53. You're normally more coherent than this..

I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[JCMach1]

2. Cars were just the tip of the iceberg... then, there's

Walmart :(

[lonestarnot]

9. Blood sucking corps that get tax rebates while earning billions in profit, war,

The Koch bros, private industrial prison complex,cash hoarders (mountains of dough), and gutless wonders with lack of foresight and that which can be reasonably anticipated.

[parkia00]

3. Those imported cars....

forced the American automobile industry to innovate to be competitive. The end result are better quality cars. If it wasn't for foreign competition, everyone will still be driving 1980's style Ford Crown Vics or Chevy Caprice or some other "Yankee Land Yacht".

[ingac70]

15. Yes, because there was no innovation since the first.....

Model T rolled off the line. :sarcasm:

Sorry, but your statement was the most full of crap one I've seen on here in a while.

[krispos42]

18. Unlikely... there's a lot of crap on DU! :-)

But he has a point. Innovation is directly proportional to competition, and when the Big Three controls 85% of the market, you have monopoly capitalism.

Innovation costs time and money, and entails risks. Corporations limit it whenever they can.

The reason the Japanese cars were so good in terms of ergonomics and build quality was because in Japan, there were 15 separate car makers in a market only a fraction as large as the US. More competitors fighting for customers in a much smaller pool.

That's why. Dr. Ravi Batra covers this extensively in his book "The Myth of Free Trade".

The upshot is that we should have, as a country, not allowed GM, Ford, and Chrysler to buy all those brands. Buick should have been Buick Motor Company, not Buick Motor Division. Mercury should have been separate, not part of Ford. Dodge should have been Dodge. And so on.

[ingac70]

26. All those little companies got bought up there like they did here....

Like Datsun merging with Nissan. It isn't competition if someone isn't failing. Although it would be cool if we still had stuff like Duesenberg, Packard, or Nash.

[krispos42]

37. Nissan owned Datsun back in 1933 but kept the name until 1986

But still, name the Japanese carmakers you can off the top of your head...



Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Mazda, Mitsubishi, and Sukuzi come immediately to mind, and there are probably several more in Japan that aren't sold here.

Ours? GMC, FoMoCo, ChryCorp.



But failing is okay. It's part of business. Market shares fluctuate, and if a business goes under then the market share is picked up by somebody else. The workers are hired by the rivals. The assets of the company are sold off.

The key is to not let the rivals buy the failures lock, stock, and barrel until there are only a few left.

[ingac70]

41. ....

I used to work for Ford and a Mazda Tribute was a Ford Escape, made on a Ford/UAW assembly line (in St. Louis, closed now).... A Nissan Quest was a Mercury Villager (made in the FORD factory) back in the late 90's. A Chevy Nova was once a Corolla... A host of other vehicles are the same way, so people can take their quality and innovation arguments and stick them up their butts.

In more recent news.....

http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/06/mazda-may-force-fords-hand-at-michigan-assembly-plant.html

[krispos42]

45. Yeah, in the American market

And a Mazda 6 is a Ford Fusion.

:shrug:

Back in the 70's and 80's, when the Japanese car companies were going mainstream, there were no crossovers. This is the period we're really talking about, how the Japanese car companies came to the point where they were forming major parterships with the Big Three in the 90's and 00's.


If it hadn't been for the oil crisis in the 70's and the safety and emissions standards imposed, the Japanese penetration in the US market probably would have been a lot slower.

[ingac70]

46. Ford Fusion isn't made in the US...

The Mazda 6 sold in the US is made at Flat Rock MI. Other Mazda 6's are made in Japan. The Ford Fusion is made in Mexico.

[krispos42]

49. Yeah, that's a whole separate issue

Damn free-trade bullshit.


It's a good book, if a bit dry. But he predicted all of this 20 years ago. Okay, he didn't with the dot-com bubble, but everything else is pretty much spot-on.


Thom Hartmann has Dr. Batra on his radio show on occasion.

[parkia00]

42. Crap My Fanny!

America invented the auto then basically sat on their asses cause there was little competition from abroad. Just churning out model after models that were basically based on the same platform and calling it by many names. Same engines just different sheet metal and chrome bits. The American buyers didn't know any better cause this was what cars were supposed to be like cause that is how the companies have taught them how cars are to be like. The American companies competed with themselves trying to sell very similar cars. Those damn foreigners improved on the automobile. Then the damn foreigners came in with their smaller fuel efficient cars, better quality and reliability and cheaper price. These American companies laughed at their dinky little cars but by the mid 80's they weren't laughing anymore.

If my statement was "was the most full of crap one I've seen on here in a while" then I'm sure you will you be more than happy to show how the large American automobile companies were doing incredibly well at that time and were killing those foreign car companies in sales. And their financial troubles were just for show.

Now that is indeed full of crap.

[ingac70]

43. A repost of something I put up earlier....

...I used to work for Ford and a Mazda Tribute was a Ford Escape, made on a Ford/UAW assembly line (in St. Louis, closed now).... A Nissan Quest was a Mercury Villager (made in the FORD factory) back in the late 90's. A Chevy Nova was once a Corolla... A host of other vehicles are the same way, so people can take their quality and innovation arguments and stick them up their butts. American made Mazda is at the Ford plant in Flat Rock, MI.....

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110603-703853.html

[parkia00]

54. Maybe you cannot see the forest because of all the trees...

The twinning programs you mention happened only AFTER the time period I was referring to when American car companies were caught asleep by foreign competitors in the 80's. So you are pointing to US car companies assembling models from foreign manufacturers to be sold under their name plate in the 1990's as proof of their innovation?

I drive a Ford Ranger which is actually a Mazda B2500 pickup platform with a Mazda engine and a Ford tranny. Are American cars better today? You bet. Cause they were forced to do better. They didn't get better simply by their own choice. Proof was the Ford Taurus in 1986. A car years ahead of what any American car at that time and lead Ford back on the upside again.

[ingac70]

56. That "twinning" was going on in the early '80's.....

like NUMMI. And the foreign manufacturers were paying to put their name on American cars in those instances I provided with Ford.

[parkia00]

60. OK, now you lost me.

NUMMI was created in 1984 using an existing plant in Fremont. It was assembling re-badged Toyota cars for the US market simply because GM did not have any vehicles like a small sub compact for the market. It was a desperate attempt to get some share of the market that the Japanese auto makers had seized. And re-badging foreign makes under a GM or Ford badge does not mean "foreign manufacturers were paying to put their name on American cars". Quite the opposite I'm afraid.

[ingac70]

61. The examples I gave...

were made in union Ford plants... the Escape/Tribute? The Mercury Villager/Nissan Quest? Those weren't made by the Japanese cos, they were made by Ford with union workers. It was a re-badging of American made, not the other way around.

[parkia00]

65. You got it upside down again.

Using your example of the Nissan Quest/Mercury Villager. You do know the platform, engine and tranny are all Nissan? Cause it was developed by Nissan. It was assembled by Ford and sold under the Mercury marque as the Villager with some modifications to meet Ford's requirements. It was a RE-BADGED Nissan minivan. It was not Nissan that took a Ford, put their mark on it and sold it as a Nissan. Wrong way round. One way street. No go! The Escape/Tribute was a joint development by Ford and Mazda.

But all this is IRREVERENT again because of the time frame of these vehicles you stated which were AFTER the time period I mentioned when American car companies started to re-badge Japanese cars under their own brand. During the late 70's and early 80's there were NO joint development or assembly between Japanese and American automobile companies.

I don't get it.
Japanese makes assembled in US and sold under US brand name is good.
Japanese makes assembled in US and sold under Japanese brand name is bad... even if it's the same vehicle.

There still must be heck of a lot of trees in the forest.

[ingac70]

66. The Villager/Quest platform ....

was the Ford VX54 platform.

And I never said one was worse than the other (when made in the same factory by the same workers). I leave that to the douchebags at Consumer Reports.

[parkia00]

67. Yes it was.

Jointly developed by Nissan and Ford from a Nissan sedan platform for their minivan with Nissan power train and Nissan tranny.

[ingac70]

68. and designed by a Scot who worked for Ford. n/t

[parkia00]

74. Now you are nictpicking.

Since it was developed both by Ford as well as Nissan, sensible logic will tell you both Ford and Nissan engineers worked on the project even though the vehicle was mostly a Nissan. You just can't pick up the fact that some Ford engineers worked on the project and say "Aha! That proves it's an American designed, engineered automobile" while ignoring the rest. I would not be debating with you here if the Nissan Quest was based of a Ford AeroStar. If it was then it would be a Nissan re-badged Ford. And just because some Nissan engineers worked on the project, it does not make it a Japanese vehicle.

[ingac70]

75. Seriously. Moray Callum designed it. n/t

[ingac70]

44. Oh, and....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/03/toyota-seeks-bailout-from_n_171303.html

[OhioChick]

4. True.....

It doesn't help that a large percentage of US jobs (that would be contributing to SS and Medicare, if still here) are now in China, India, Mexico, etc.

Years ago, my Father used to make comments in the car when we passed Lordstown. (GM plant)
So many of the cars in the lot were foreign makes/models.

[NNN0LHI]

7. I find your GM story hard to believe friend

This one:

>>>Years ago, my Father used to make comments in the car when we passed Lordstown. (GM plant) So many of the cars in the lot were foreign makes/models. <<<

Every UAW plant I worked at imported cars were not allowed to park there.

Even venders who drove them were not welcome. They were told to park them out in the street somewhere.

I think you may be confused. Are you sure that wasn't the non-union scab Honda plant who was outsourcing their work to prison labor you and your daddy was looking at?

Ever work at that scab plant by any chance?

Don

[OhioChick]

11. Unfortunately, it is true...

I've posted this on DU various times in the past. I'm certain it was GM/Lordstown (not Honda) and it was their main lot. My Father used to make a game of sorts for us kids as we traveled past it. (Count the foreign cars in the lot) He was a union guy all of his life and this "practice" always upset him.

Years later when my Brother's MIL worked there (GM/union) she was allowed to park her foreign car in that same lot. Me and my Brother would have the same "talk" that our Father used to have with us...."Doesn't she realize that she's shooting herself in the foot by buying foreign?"

No, I've never worked in the auto industry.

[NNN0LHI]

12. Just because you post it a lot doesn't make it any truer

I see people posting bullshit around here all the time. Over and over again.

Don

[ChromeFoundry]

22. I have seen this as well...

While growing up, when we went to visit my grandfather, we would drive by the Ford Engine and Casting Plant in Brook Park, Ohio. I distinctly remember seeing three Datsuns in the lot one afternoon. My dad was a union steelworker, I remember how pissed off my dad was!

We would also pass the GM Stamping plant in Parma... same thing.

A few years later, on a trip to PA, we passed the Lordstown Plant... same thing... MANY foreign model cars in the lot.

If you want to call 'bullshit'... fine, be my guest. I know what I saw.

BTW, I have never owned a foreign-made vehicle.

[tammywammy]

34. I live down the street from a GM plant.

There's foreign cars in the parking lot.

[Xipe Totec]

5. Toyota Motor Corporation Continues Production of Prius

April 06, 2011

Toyota Motor Corporation (TMC) announced today that it will continue production of the Prius along with the Lexus CT 200h and HS 250h at two plants in Japan, although at less than capacity. TMC also announced that it will continue production in Japan of replacement parts and parts for overseas production.

Toyota’s 13 North American vehicle assembly and engine plants are continuing to operate on normal two-shift schedules, although overtime and Saturday production have been cancelled.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/toyota+production+update+japan+prius+april+6.htm

Just pointing out that Toyota has American workers as well as Japanese.

It goes without saying that Ford, GM, and other 'American' companies have labor both here and abroad.

[NNN0LHI]

8. How many of those US Toyota workers are unionized?

And do you belong to a union?

Don

[kestrel91316]

16. You don't have to belong to a union to pay into Med and SS.

I send money off to the feds quarterly for employee withholdings for Med and SS among other things - and I run a frickin' cat hospital. And we ain't union.

You don't get out much, do you?

[Xipe Totec]

17. Your point seems to have shifted from imports to unions

No, I do not belong to a union. I used to when I worked as a roustabout on an oil derrick, and I am a proud son of union labor.

If you think you have to be unionized to support unions, you're sadly mistaken.

[BillStein]

31. I wanted to join AFSCME

but I was classified as management- something of a joke, since no one answers to me except my secretary.

More to the point, isn't it a good thing when management supports the unions, as I certainly do?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

10. Aren't some of Ford and GM's products sold here made in Canada and Mexico?

I'm not sure, but I thought they were. :shrug:

I also think Toyota, Honda and Hyundai all have plants in the US.

I'm not saying the weakening of the US auto manufacturing industry isn't a problem, mind you. In many of these cases the jobs no longer have pensions and wages are much lower. I'm just pointing out that it's not as cut and dried as it sometimes appears.

[NNN0LHI]

13. Both of my cars have a UAW union label on them

What is so complicated about that?

How many union plants does Toyota, Honda and Hyundai have in the US?

Don

[Lone_Star_Dem]

21. That's not what your OP was about though, was it?

It was about foreign brand auto industry workers who don't contribute to SS and Medicare. Many jobs in the US are held by workers employed by foreign plants on US soil. Even the contract workers at US auto plants, both foreign and domestic, contribute to SS and Medicare.

I firmly believe the weakening, and loss of our unions have cost us dearly in terms of wages, pensions and health insurance for American workers. Which contributes greatly to the current issues we're having now. However, non-unionized workers still pay in SS and Medicare.

[kestrel91316]

14. Toyota built Corollas in NCal with American labor for decades.

I am pretty sure they paid into Med and SS, lol.

[NNN0LHI]

19. And then after Toyota closed the plant they turned to US taxpayers to fund the workers pensions

What a deal, eh?

http://castage.cr.atl.publicus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100517/OEM01/305179997/1424&template=printart

NUMMI pensions are Toyota's responsibility

Automotive News | May 17, 2010 - 12:01 am EST


When General Motors pulled out of the New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. joint venture during its bankruptcy last year and Toyota Motor Corp. subsequently closed the Fremont, Calif., plant, the shuttered company left behind an employee pension plan that was only 55 percent funded.

After more than a quarter of a century, the NUMMI/UAW Hourly Defined Benefit Pension Fund had $161 million in assets and $292 million in liabilities, leaving a shortfall of $131 million.

GM's liability disappeared in Chapter 11. That left Toyota with two choices: It could take the high road and assume the pension obligation on behalf of the defunct joint venture, or it could turn its corporate back on the American workers and walk away. Toyota chose to walk away, tossing responsibility for pensions owed NUMMI workers to the U.S. government-funded Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp., which says it will cover $126 million of the $131 million shortfall.

Legally, Toyota was out from under the pension obligation, but that doesn't make it right. It's hard to imagine Toyota acting the same way toward workers in Japan -- or toward the Japanese government, for that matter. snip

Toyota could have paid the pensions. It's not a bankrupt company. As of March 31, the Japanese automaker had cash and cash-equivalent reserves of $20 billion. That's not even counting its equity stakes in other Toyota Group companies, finance receivables or other assets that could be turned into cash easily if Toyota needed to. Toyota is beyond rich.


----------------

And just so you know if my veterinarian was driving an import or non-union made car I would find a different veterinarian. I figure if they don't want to support me I won't support them. That is fair isn't it?

[KamaAina]

59. And then GM used the bailout as an excuse to pull out!

So ended NUMMI (a Toyota/GM joint venture), one of the Bay Area's last real manufacturing plants. Not to mention all the parts suppliers in the Central Valley, where unemployment was already sky-high. :eyes:

[WinkyDink]

20. Yeah, Toyota did it. Remember Pearl Harbor!

[NNN0LHI]

25. No the people who purchased them did it

[WinkyDink]

62. Well, pardon my retired-public-school-teacher ARSE.

[NNN0LHI]

64. A white collar union worker who doesn't want to support our blue collar union workers?

And you don't see any problem with that?

Don

[Shagbark Hickory]

23. This post should be locked. Lots of DUers drive import brands. I drive a toyo made in Indiana by

Americans who contribute to social security.

[NNN0LHI]

28. Well I am sorry to hear that

Hope you don't ever need any help with your struggle to gain better pay and benefits in your own profession.

Good luck.

Don

[Shagbark Hickory]

29. You're talking out your ass.

[NNN0LHI]

30. Why are you attacking me personally?

What do you gain?

Don

[Shagbark Hickory]

35. I'm not attacking you. You are attacking thousands of DUers and being a troll. n

[NNN0LHI]

48. I am a troll because I won't support someone who refuses to support me?

That is what I thought you were getting at up thread.

Glad you came right out and admitted it.

See, ya.

Don

[Shagbark Hickory]

73. You picked one of the most divisive subjects on DU. That's what made you a troll.

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. Can you please provide a link which might explain what you're talking about? n/t

[NNN0LHI]

27. You need a link to prove that workers in other countries don't contribute to our SS and Medicare?

That is interesting.

Don

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. Sorry, I misinterpreted your post.

I thought you were talking about foreign brands built here.

[ileus]

33. I replaced the starter in my 17yo honda this weekend.

That makes

1 Starter
2 CV joints
1 upper ball joint
1 starter relay


Not bad for 17 year old car with 200k....

[Shagbark Hickory]

36. Why do you hate america so much?

You could have bought 5 or 6 union made fords in that time with parts made in mexico.

[DainBramaged]

39. If I told you we don't care would it matter?

You missed the point completey, but that's Ok, most of you do, have a nice life.

[NNN0LHI]

47. 9% unemployment, wages falling like a rock, cuts in Medicare and SS and ...

... they still think they got a "good deal."

I don't know what to say?

Don

[DainBramaged]

50. Yup, a good deal, don't matter it's 17 years old and a rust bucket

They got theirs....

[DainBramaged]

38. And the scabs ignore the thread, who would have thunk it?

:shrug:

[tammywammy]

40. My imported car was sold to me by an American worker

At a family owned American dealership and serviced at the same dealer. All of which pay taxes.

[NNN0LHI]

51. Well, you probably got a "good deal", then

Gave up three jobs to gain one.

Let me know how that works out for you over time.

Don

[tammywammy]

52. I worked for that same dealership for many years.

Every car sold or serviced paid my paycheck.

I currently work for a large manufacturer, but people cheer when they hear a defense contractor is having layoffs. :shrug:

[madinmaryland]

55. Huh? If a car (American or Foreign) aren't the workers and companies

contributing to the social security and medicare?

I understand cars built overseas by workers/companies don't contribute to ss and medicare. Not just cars, but what about all the other crap built overseas that "we" buy? You are probably staring at this very moment at something that was built overseas.

:shrug:

[Shagbark Hickory]

57. Yeah, I don't see OP complaining about migrant workers picking strawberries not paying into SS.

[taught_me_patience]

58. How about "Domestic" cars made in Mexico?

I guess you just ignore that impact.

[WinkyDink]

63. Yeap, NOTHING to DO with, oh, say: TAX CUTS; WARS; WALL STREET; BANKS. It's MY CAMRY!!

[Eddie Haskell]

69. That's a great idea!

Make manufacturers pay into SS. A small percentage of every products retail value would be collected. Retirement would be funded by consumption and fair trade would be assured since all manufacturers, foreign and domestic would pay the same amount.

[LanternWaste]

70. I imagine we all try to find one reason and one reason only

I imagine we all try to find one reason and one reason only at the expense of all others, fix the blame, and then dogmatically justify it at the expense of rationalism. It's simple, it's self-validating, and it's part of the human condition...

It's also quite often exploited by demagogues on radio talk shows who successfully foster a degree of "them vs. us", name-calling, and blame laying. It would seem the demagogues have found another success.

[moondust]

71. Did you mention it to management in Detroit?

Back in the 1980s when they abandoned the push for smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles to return to big, junky gas guzzlers and SUVs even when President Carter and everybody else with a brain knew the score following the OPEC embargo? It was terrible U.S. management that fucked U.S. auto workers, SS, and Medicare. They didn't give a shit about anything but short-term profits.

[JNelson6563]

72. I agree.

Buy American! :patriot: