Let me make this clear: if Obama fucks with Social Security or Medicare, he will be a one term pres.

[originalpckelly]

Not because the left is going to get mad and leave him, but because old people vote.

An argument could be made that even if they insulate current recipients of these benefits, that you simply cannot trust a man who would do such a thing AT ALL.

It's basically, "read my lips, no new taxes."

This is the hot button issue. People empathize with the elderly, no one gave a shit about "welfare queens." Clinton could get away with that shit, because everyone was all, "fuck them, they're lazy, get a job." But everyone cares, to some degree, about a poor little senior citizen.

It's like going after children, we have laws that make crimes against this group of people more severe in the way crimes against children are more severe. Even in America, we still give somewhat of a shit about seniors, in other words.

But people secretly despised the poor, "the lazy", the "freeloaders", who needed to go out and get job already, and get off their backs. And you could cast it in a positive light. "Oh, we're going to put them in job training, so they can control their destiny! Be their own man. Give someone a fish, they eat for a day, teach them how to fish, they eat for a lifetime." Or some other bullshit.

But everyone, to some degree, wants to live to be a senior. And this means they can inherently empathize, even out of selfish motivations, with this group. WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY GOING TO DO?

You can't employ them into their 80s! At some point this shit is not going to work out. And everyone wants to retire as early as possible, aside from people who don't fucking work, like the people making these deals in the first place. I mean that seriously, they read and discuss shit for a living, and vote. Oh God, how hard that is.

But most Americans in the workforce actually work for a living. It is either tedious and boring and not physically hard, or it's physically hard. But no one wants to work. And since this is a stage of life everyone wants to go through, it will mean that they can't separate themselves from it.

And that's problem with these cuts for Obama and our chances in 2012. If he does this, he's a liability.

What frightens me, is that they all know this is true.

And what it really means, is that they are having to shoot themselves in the foot, just to make it more likely that the Republicans will go along with the debt ceiling.

This probably means, that behind closed doors, the talks are not going well, and the Obama Administration is floating this trial balloon out there to see if this will get the Republicans to go along with the deal the Democrats want.

This is a very bad sign in many way, folks.

If the Republicans won't even go for this, then these talks may break down and we may actually default on our debt.

[FreakinDJ]

1. +1000

[xchrom]

2. recommend

[msongs]

3. the devil is in the details (quote - jug ears) but past is prologue nt

[MannyGoldstein]

4. "Who the %&$# else ya gonna vote for, chumps?"

Unfortunately, that's likely to be a winning campaign slogan.

[originalpckelly]

6. Oh no, you never know what trickery the Republicans have up their sleeves.

We may even see a third party candidate if this happens. When ever there is a seriously controversial issue at hand, that stuff takes off.

Plus, how hard are you willing to work for a guy whose greatest argument is, "Well, at least I'm not them!"

To win a campaign, you need devoted workers to go out and help you get votes. How is that going to happen if they just don't give a shit and are disaffected?

[annabanana]

5. I look forward to a Supreme Court with an even larger RW margin. . .n/t

[JoeyT]

37. It can't get much larger.

And it's not like Obama would appoint anyone that isn't a right winger anyway.

You think he's going to appoint someone that would look at the Patriot Act, illegal wars, or the TSA funny? Just because the people he appointed are to the left of Scalia and Thomas doesn't make them not on the right.

[Poll_Blind]

7. Your last few sentences- I hadn't considered that might be the case.

(shudder)

PB

[ProfessionalLeftist]

8. damn straight, and no, he doesn't need to pander to them

if the ceiling isn't raised causing havoc THEY get blamed. If he cuts SS and Medicare HE/Dems get blamed. He needs to draw a line - stand his ground and NOT BUDGE. PERIOD.

[originalpckelly]

22. The problem is that if there is a default, there may not be much of an America left.

That's the problem. It's basically like the Cuban missile crisis. That's how serious this is.

We are looking at a Great Great Depression if we default on the debt.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

27. If Obama decimates SS and Medicare there won't be either.

Remember that alleged "economic recovery"? Kiss it goodbye if SS and Medicare are cut.

[Walk away]

24. I think a possible economic collapse under his watch might be a bad thing.

He can override the Congress on the debt ceiling but they have promised impeachment. We all know how well that worked out for the Democrats the last time.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

31. If he cuts SS and Medicare he's gonna be 'impeached' too

ie: voted his ass out. And the economy will collapse.

If he's going to LOSE either way I'd rather he LOST FIGHTING for Democratic principles than pandering to Republican ones.

[Marblehead]

9. Out of the ashes

a real people's party may emerge.

[originalpckelly]

10. Yep, we have such a bad economy, it might actually cause such a thing...

but we should be wary, because this "people's party" will still need money to get somewhere, and they may be corrupted.

[tularetom]

11. He's handed his opponents a club they will use to beat him to death

If he believes for a minute that they'll give him credit for cutting the deficit he's delusional.

All we're gonna hear for the next year and a half is how "Obama killed Social Security and Medicare".

[originalpckelly]

15. Yep.

Republicans will trick you into doing something, and then they'll get some douche bag to go out with an independent group and swift boat him.

The Obama people are so fucking stupid to have done this. It's the moment when a prey animal who is escaping the predator successfully stumbles and then the lion comes and eats them.

You can't make it any clearer.

[oxymoron]

12. Exactly.

I can't believe this is even on the table.

[Cleita]

13. With the way states are fixing elections these days by demanding

ID's and other ways of disenfranchising those who are least able to fight back, you can be sure that most old people won't be able to vote in 2012. :tinfoilhat:

[Capitalocracy]

14. There are plenty of people who have zero sympathy for seniors or anyone

But they're all Republicans anyway.

[originalpckelly]

20. True, but in an election, you're only going after people in the middle...

while trying to shore up your base.

Well, his base is not going to like this, and indies may see this and stay home. Someone who is not politically inclined enough to pick a party, might just be the same kind of person who wouldn't give a fuck who wins and doesn't vote.

[Capitalocracy]

29. Yep

It's one thing to say yeah, people SHOULDN'T just stay home and not get involved because they don't feel like they have anyone good to vote for, but we shouldn't ignore the reality that that's exactly what people do.

You can try to appeal to heartless deficit hawks who want to throw everyone under the bus, but none of them are going to vote for a Democrat anyway. And you'll lose all the independents and anyone who is on the fence between voting or staying home.

[leveymg]

16. Obama is embracing the Third Rail - political suicide. His legacy will be as a Weak Dealer

who traded away everything on the table in exchange for nothing.

Fair or not, that is the image that is forming in many people's minds.

[leftstreet]

47. His legacy is already set

First African American US Prez

Everyone's forgetting how big a deal that was. Same thing will happen when it's the first female prez

[liberation]

48. Pretty much

His legacy will revolve around that, and any other policy item for example will be either made secondary or drowned right out of the historical consideration by the fact that he was indeed our first minority president.

Although I will find it very telling, that our first African American president is half white.

I am sure that Obama's main consideration regarding his legacy is being able to finish his term(s) without getting shot. And I can't say I blame them, given how the extreme right has gone ape shit and are armed to the teeth.

[uponit7771]

17. Haven't we gone through this "pre" histeria before?

[originalpckelly]

21. The White House has confirmed these reports.

They are not hysteria, this is a reaction to a confirmed report.

[uponit7771]

23. Obama confirmed this or is this another "sources" report?

[JoeyT]

38. Yes.

And we're always told to wait until the White House confirms it. Then the White House confirms it and all the people that told us it was a terrible thing that they'd never do are left to spin it as a wonderful chess move.

[gkhouston]

18. He may have lost a lot of the older vote for even suggesting it.

Some of the Republicans will literally profit from a default. This needs to become more widely known.

[Shagbark Hickory]

19. Pretty sure he's a 1-termer no matter what.

At least that's what my uber librul, "legalize it", father keeps saying.

[ixion]

25. I'm starting to think that one term is exactly what he has in mind

because he appears to be doing everything possible to alienate the base.

[originalpckelly]

28. And I forgot to add that the COLA formula is under debate too,

and that's going to affect ALL SENIORS, including ones currently receiving benefits.

[Dept of Beer]

26. IMHO it's much worse than "read my lips, no new taxes."

[originalpckelly]

30. Yeah, we're kind of in Storm the Bastille territory here. It's like austerity in Greece.

There may be some really big riots that fall out of this event.

[richmwill]

32. If cuts are made to SS or Medicare, I sit home on Election Day 2012.

That is a vow and a promise. Say "You're just helping the Republican win!" to me, I don't care. I will not vote for Obama again under any circumstances if this happens.

[southernyankeebelle]

33. I have written emails to Obama several times and told him if they touch

these programs that I would not go vote. Let the republicans have it so they can finally put the nail into the coffin of the american people.

[oxymoron]

34. Agreed. And I'll work hard for a challenger.

[TheCowsCameHome]

35. He'll pay a price if he or the Dems mess with it.

No doubt about it.

[Ruby the Liberal]

36. I told my far RW mother that the Rs are talking about cutting her SS by 20% to fund the wars

Stunned silence.

If Obama leads the charge on that, all they will hear is that a Democrat took their money.

He needs to stop channeling Herbert Hoover and find a medium that can locate his inner FDR.

[somone]

39. Cutting Social Security and Medicare was Obama's idea from the very beginning

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/15/AR2009011504114.html

Obama Pledges Reform of Social Security, Medicare Programs
By Michael D. Shear
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 16, 2009

President-elect Barack Obama pledged yesterday to shape a new Social Security and Medicare "bargain" with the American people, saying that the nation's long-term economic recovery cannot be attained unless the government finally gets control over its most costly entitlement programs.

[Hosnon]

40. He should be if he does. Eliminate the damn cap. nt.

[theophilus]

41. Maybe, but it depends on who the Ruling Class wants. They may pour their

millions (billions?) of sweet Citizens United cash into Mr. BOs coffers if they feel they can get more of what they want from a "Democrat". Who knows. I don't think the voter is relevant anymore. Very sad.

[OhioChick]

42. Rec n/t

[d_b]

43. He'll get his 2nd term

hes been too good a corporate whore not to.

[somone]

44. There is a reason they're running idiots and crazies against him

It's a done deal

[femrap]

45. I actually believe that is

The Deal Obama made with TPTB/Lucifers.

He's young....he'll be able to make tons of money and Secret Service around him all the time.

We're living the Decline of the American Empire....everyone in DC knows this...it's all Kabuki theater. This 'default' thingie should be very interesting....maybe that's when the US Dollar will be replaced by some other currency????

[Little Star]

46. What's to say he won't just wait till after he's re-elected? n/t

[AsahinaKimi]

49. Not sure I could get used to

President Romney and Vice President Bachmann, or maybe President Bachmann and Vice President Palin... puttering around the White House.. no no no no...

[DarthCheney]

50. I am so conflicted, to the point of being sick to my stomach

because of the supreme court, I want a dem prez.

But this, is close to being unforgivable. I hate to say it, but many, many people will just elect to sit this election out. For better or worse.

I just don't know.

[Rex]

51. They don't want to make the rich (them) help fix the economy.

So we are all fucked...not today, but soon.