Very depressed at my interactions with folks

[Ishoutandscream2]

And where I live, it is expected. Those of you in blue areas, be glad you don't have to put up with what we do in the red states.

Getting my oil change, and talking to my mechanic. Two other gentlemen were there, one actually an educator, and another an accountant. We were talking, and the educator talked about teacher retirement. I mentioned I would be eligible in three years, but because of a legislature move in 2007, the multiplier increased to top five years from three, which would significantly decrease my pension.

The accountant winked at my mechanic, and said "How about your pension?" I mentioned come on, don't do that. We should work for all of us to get pensions. And then the shit hit the fan.

I was blindsided by the educator and accountant, blaming all the financial woes on Democrats. I was hardly able to get my thoughts in edgewise, and when I said "fair share" the accountant said what would you cut back on. I said my wife has taken a pay cut of about 3000, and I will lose about 500. He continued to defend the rich, and all the financial woes come down to illegal immigration and unions. It was nonstop, and I hardly couldn't get a word in edgewise.

The accountant left, and made a dig at me when he left stating, "Well, I have to go to work." Again, I'm a bit used to this, but I was blindsided.

Oh, and Reagan won the cold war, the Republicans were the reason the economy grew in the 90s, and the reason we're in the mess we're in was because of the Democratic congress that held a majority for two years. The other years of the Bush presidency - not his fault.

This kind of stuff can wear on a person. I hear it almost every day. But not this volatile. I could have used back up.

[Yupster]

1. Not to pile on, but

complaining about your pension being cut to two people who don't have any pensions at all probbaly wasn't the most sensitive thing you could have done.

[sufrommich]

4. The educator certainly has a pension coming. nt

[Yupster]

37. I meant the accountant and the mechanic

The educator probably did have a pension too.

[jtuck004]

41. So does everyon else. Just as much. n/y

[Ishoutandscream2]

5. Well, I was asked a question, and I answered the educator

He asked me about being grandfathered. Maybe I should have mentioned to the accountant he was participating in class warfare. And how did I know the accountant didn't have a pension = I didn't know his job until afterwards.

[Saturday]

2. Speaking from a blue state....

don't be disheartened. A poll out today (it was on MSNBC) blames the bad economy on Bush and congress NOT Obama. Obama only got 8% of the blame. Most in the USA agree with blue states. Laugh at the ignorance of those you encountered this morning.;-)

[Ishoutandscream2]

6. You know, you're right

I should have just said, "Okay" and left it at that. The accountant was an ass. He asked me where I got my info. I mentioned I read, mainly on the internet. He laughed, and I asked, "And where do you get yours, Fox News?"

[canoeist52]

3. Yup I hear it up here in Mass. too. Right-wing radio has a long reach.

When they say these thing, I don't know where to start.

[lpbk2713]

7. There's not much hope for the willfully ignorant.

This is their lot in life. Don't let it get you down.

[Ishoutandscream2]

8. Thanks, the accountant just blistered the unions

It's the unions who have sent jobs overseas, the bailout of GM and Chrysler was all about the unions. I was finding out through all of this that I'm really not radical at all.

[vanlassie]

9. It took me years to learn "you can't argue with a drunk."

These people are drunk on kool-aid. Step away.

[Ishoutandscream2]

11. You're right, Vanlassie

I should have just stood back. In essence, I sort of did. They just went on and on.

[sendero]

54. Exactly.

... when the economy is reduced to total rubble, then maybe some of these morons will turn off Fox news and figure it out.

[ieoeja]

10. Q. How does a communist country go bankrupt?

Shout out that question the next time they say Reagan won the Cold War, and it will freeze them in their tracks. You now have the floor and may continue with...

The Soviet Union didn't borrow money from their bankers to build their military complex. They *ordered* it built by their own people using their own supplies and their own equipment. It was impossible for a self-contained, totalitarian, communist country to go bankrupt. They could have continued building nukes and battleships for centuries with no money worries.


What really happened...

1987 courts ruled in favor of Pepsico in Pepsico vs Reagan admin.

This permitted Pepsi to open a Pizza Hut on Red Square in Moscow. Soviet investors in this enterprise began to amass more wealth and power relative to their Soviet peers prompting them to search out similar overseas partners.

But there was a catch: the Russian market was closed. The Rubble had no value outside the Soviet Union. Pepsico had to respend all their profits on Russian vodka then export that to get any return on their investment. And you can only invest so much in the Vodka Exchange.

So Russia turned to capitalism and opened their market.

The rest, as they say, is history.


And Reagan's involvement in all this? Re-read the Pepsico v Reagan admin line. He tried to *stop* the expansion of capitalism to Russia. He was playing the Cold War like it was a game of Risk. They were fighting over land and territory having apparently forgotten *why* we were fighting the Cold War.

[Ishoutandscream2]

12. Oh no, it was all Reagan!

Why were there deficits during Reagan - the cold war and democratic congress. I stated something like, "If we're going to generalize like that, let's say Truman really started the defeat of Russia with the 1949 Berlin airlift." I also mentioned that the USSR had an empire, and couldn't maintain it. Kind of like what we're doing now.

[ieoeja]

17. The odd thing is, the Reagan claim would mean our big gov't (military) beat their big gov't.

Whereas the scenario I paint, in which the rich and powerful in the Soviet Union saw they could do better, means that capitalism beat communism.

If I wanted to argue that the fall of the Soviet Union does not prove that communism was inferior to capitalism then the first thing I would do is ... credit the military buildup under Reagan with defeating the Soviet Union instead!

Of course, you are not talking to thinking people here. You are talking to trained people instead.

[Redbear]

13. Stay strong. We really will overcome.

Even in our currently red state.

[Tesha]

14. At the first sign...

of talking points, or anger, or redirecting your conversation, or attacking you personally...

understand that you will not be able to have a real conversation with these people. You can either shift to
an activist attitude or quietly and politely say that you hope they have a nice day.

So smile and forget about it, or get yourself prepared to hold your own - and that may mean that you
use the same tactics they use on you. If you can... have fun with it.

NH is now full of these folks, either robots from Fox or even having spent time at training classes.
I pick my battles, smile a lot, find points of agreement, and go toe to toe whenever I think i can
make my points - which sometimes can be as fine as leaving them with a crease between
their eyebrows.

[Ishoutandscream2]

15. Yes, agreed, looking back, I should have just smiled and nodded

but they did go on and on. It was difficult to just take it, so I probably should have just left. I was certainly ganged up on, and there was no way I was going to get a word in edgewise. Oh, well.

[ProfessorGAC]

21. My Favorite Line

"Yeah, you keep telling yourself that. Never mind what really happened."

There really is no comeback. So, the conversation ends before it gets bitter.
GAC

[Tesha]

34. I have this friend

a Selectman in town who uses one word...

she says, "Really?"

depending on how much sarcasm she paints it with - she gets some folks to back off... just one word.

[EFerrari]

16. The free floating unreality is disturbing, for sure. n/t

[Romulox]

18. Do you not understand that most working people don't have pensions at all?

You should try to show more empathy for others. It's like complaining your belly aches from being too full in front of a starving man!

[kick-ass-bob]

20. You do realize that most govt pensions are employee funded, right?

And they are making a lower wage than they would in the private sector, right? So, lower pay and (in NC, anyways - I don't know where the OP is) 6% from every paycheck goes to the fund.

Yes, it's a good deal and a nice perk, but it doesn't come free.

[Romulox]

22. That's entirely immaterial to whether one should belly-ache in front of have-nots.

If you want to build support, you're going to have to EXTEND support. The first step is understanding where others are coming from.

[Ishoutandscream2]

23. Number 1, it was not a bellyache

I was asked by another educator about my pension, and if I was grandfathered. I simply told him that the 2007 legislative session cut my pension by changing the multiplier. That was it, period.

The accountant was using typical right wing talking points. Not that he was jealous, but in a sense, as a govt. worker, I didn't deserve it. Never mind that he probably makes in one year what I make in 5.

[Romulox]

24. You're the one who doesn't understand why you got such a negative reaction...

"The accountant was using typical right wing talking points. Not that he was jealous, but in a sense, as a govt. worker, I didn't deserve it. Never mind that he probably makes in one year what I make in 5."

I've known accountants who worked for "Big 4" accounting firms. They DO NOT make the kind of money that you think they do. :shrug:

[Ishoutandscream2]

28. Okay

It started with my pension. Then it went into another total direction. This whole thing really had nothing to do with pensions, but it went into why unions and the democrats were problems. I hardly spoke after that

The man was full of right wing talking points. Educators are, essentially, sucking on the government's teat. And his message of "Well, I have to go to work now" was an obvious dig as he left the room.

If he doesn't make a huge salary, then he didn't give me that impression. I was certainly a "little person" to him.

[Romulox]

30. Also, no pension. At all. Not at Price Waterhouse Cooper.

"If he doesn't make a huge salary, then he didn't give me that impression. I was certainly a "little person" to him."

People attack out of insecurity, so I'm guessing he definitely wasn't the "big wheel" he presented himself to be.

Anyhow, I was just offering a different perspective. I'm with you: we ALL deserve a pension. :toast:

[JoeyT]

45. The guy could have made a big salary and just been an ass.

I know a right wing lawyer that makes ungodly amounts of money. He never shuts up. Ever. He just gets more shrill and angry.

Insecurity can come from many different places. "People don't recognize my inherent superiority for being rich, white, or male nearly as much anymore!" being a BIG one for right wingers in the deep south.

It's like an insane funhouse mirror down here. The more someone supports oppressing others the more they manage to convince themselves that they're oppressed.

Edited to add: I'm not trying to start a fight. Just pointing out that the motives of right wingers can be really screwy down here.

[kick-ass-bob]

25. Obviously you didn't actually READ the post.

Get back to me later when you do. And give me a break with the build support schtick.

[Romulox]

26. Sure did. Thought it invited discussion, not an attempt to reopen an argument that went poorly. nt

[RoryK]

19. Now now, no need to be in the drippings.

Accountants are INVARIABLY cornheaded. Pay no heed!

[w8liftinglady]

27. I feel your pain

And the right is getting downright mean and ugly...taking it out on family.
I used to be able to write for my local paper,have cordial disagreements,and move on.
I had to stop writing when the insults extended to my kids(football stats in the paper).
part of me wants to see them crash and burn....but the humane part knows too many innocents will suffer in the process.

[Ishoutandscream2]

29. They have become very ugly. Obama's election was the turning point

And man, the venom both the gentleman had toward Obama was almost to the point of insanity. Frightening stuff. Like I said, I am somewhat used to this (I mean, look at where we live), but this situation really shook me up.

[Maru Kitteh]

31. Greetings from Nebraska!

Now most of the time here, at least in public, people adhere to a norm of keeping quiet when they don't have anything positive, or at least agreeable to say - however, bar-b-ques, family get-togethers and events of the like can be another matter entirely.

I remember going to one of my nephew's birthday parties and a bunch of moms who had just got done talking about what a great guy Dubya was and thank goodness "that Kerry" didn't get in pipped up about how they couldn't figure out why they weren't able to pick up public television any more and how mad they were that kids who lived out in the country couldn't watch Sesame Street. I let them know it was directly caused by Dubya and his cuts to public programing, reducing the amount of money they could spend on signal output and reminded them that he and other republicans didn't think there should be ANY public television or radio at all.

Awkward silence ensued - but they learned something that day.

[closeupready]

32. Someone very wealthy did this "trade unions are to blame" thing to me recently.

It was hard for me to refute him, since he clearly knows better but is programmed to parrot Rush Limbaugh or whoever toes the GOP talking points, but yeah, it sucks. :(

[VeryConfused]

33. The right has successfully brainwashed many people

[senseandsensibility]

35. I've been there. I feel for you.

Sorry you had to go through that. It can bother you for days if you let it. I'm guilty of letting it bother me, so I'm not being critical. I think a good part of it is you really want the best for everyone involved, and aren't trying to take anything from anyone. You're also willing to listen to reasonable differences. But instead of being treated in kind, you are ridiculed or put down. It's human to be upset by this.

[ChrisBorg]

36. By the average income component of your retirement formula being moved from 3 to 5

really doesn't change it that much. If you got about the same raises in the last 5 years, this moves the final amount from your salary 1 year ago to your salary 2 years ago. Not that much.

In addition, if your raises were small, the difference is even less.

I am in the same boat. Not enough to complain about.

[Dawson Leery]

38. People such as these are ruining us all.

They are willfully ignorant and bitter.

[unkachuck]

39. your story is horrifying....I see a President Palin in our future....n/t

[ChoppinBroccoli]

40. When The Guy Said, "I Gotta Go To WORK," You Should Have Said...........

............., "Well, thanks to people who continuously vote Republican, you'll be working longer hours for less money. Have a nice day."

[Ishoutandscream2]

42. Thanks to all of you for your kind words

It does wear on me. The "me first" attitude of a lot of folks down here is very depressing. The ridicule and hate, simply because you think differently, can be demoralizing. That's why I came on here to get some tea and sympathy. We do need each other here at DU.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

43. Here's What Disturbs Me

The thing that I simply cannot STAND is the FACT that every time you try to have a substantive discussion with a right-winger, they get angry, insulting, and borderline violent within SECONDS of having their talking points refuted. And that's part of the reason why the right-wing message is so pervasive, even when it's utter crap (which it is over 99% of the time). Because people naturally try to avoid confrontation, so they think if they just blow up and lose their shit at the first sign of opposition, the other person will just back down in the interest of keeping the peace. It's a bullying tactic. And the way you combat it is to keep your cool and never rise to the bait. You very calmly and in a quiet tone of voice (but very firmly) insist that the other person calm down and lower his/her voice, as you're only having a discussion. You'll come off as the more reasonable person and your points will carry more weight.

There's an old saying out there that goes: "The lawyer who loses his cool loses his case." Always remain unflappable and firm without sinking to their level. And never, ever back down in the interest of "keeping the peace." Because it won't work anyway, and you'll just look weak. Or worse yet, you'll validate their talking points by making it look like you aren't able to respond to them.

[Ishoutandscream2]

44. Yes, they like to bully

It was two of them to one of me. Like I said, it would have been nice to have back up. They love strength in numbers.

[JoeyT]

46. K&R

Right there with you man. I gave up on refuting their talking points a long time ago.

They're like typical bullies anywhere. If they think they can get to you, they'll harp on forever just to grind it in a little more. Especially if they've got you outnumbered. If they're outnumbered (Which is rare) they'll tuck tail and haul ass.

[DiverDave]

47. I just shake my head, mutter 'idiots' and walk away

it aint worth it, they will ALWAYS be idiots.

Just walk away.

[JVS]

48. Tell them to fuck themselves and then move so your can spend your pension money...

among people who don't suck so badly.

[Ishoutandscream2]

59. Brilliant!

[kornovol]

49. Sad

Sad story

[HughBeaumont]

50. I work with many "soshulism=BAAAAD" foreign peoples.

Same thing. They actually defend the stupid wars and tax cuts for the rich and the GOP chestnut "why should I support someone who doesn't work as hard as I do" crap. I, of course, can counter their bullshit at every turn and they hate it.

[Ishoutandscream2]

61. Hey, Hugh, I sure could have used you

I felt I was surrounded. You would have provided excellent backup.

[Drahthaardogs]

51. I had a fundie "businessman" friend start that crap with me.

This is about what I told him, "The only reason your business exist is because of the public servant. Our military makes sure you are free to carry out your little business, our engineers build your roads you use to ship your product, our cops keep your product safe in your warehouse when you go home for the night, and our politicians make sure that some dictator doesn't claim authority to take over everything. They do it for less money, no respect, and are proud of their contribution to society. In fact, talking about contribution to society, what have YOU ever done for this country?"

At that point, he starts to bring up his dad who was blinded in WWII. I told him "Bullshit, his honor is his to own...it's not yours, and how sad that you have to invoke your father because you do nothing on your own to contribute to society or your country. You know, it's one thing to be a leech, but to sit and bitch and moan about those who are willing to do the work you will not, that is just pathetic."

[Ishoutandscream2]

60. Thanks. I should have asked this person why he wasn't at work

He was at this place, hammering me with political talking points and about how hard he has to work. If that was the case, why is he here at 10 in the morning on a weekday and not working? I know, I really don't believe in that shit, but that's how they think.

[truth2power]

52. I'm sorry that you had to endure that. I've said, here,

ad nauseum that there's no way to educate these people. They operate out of the primitive brain. Maybe if we just stopped talking to them, altogether, they'd be deprived of any payoff for their nonsense. They crave negative attention.

[Ishoutandscream2]

57. You're right. I know better now

I should have not said anything, even though the other two individuals did 90 percent of the talking. I should have just grinned and nodded, and exited the premises.

[CBGLuthier]

53. I live in a red state. I don't put up with it. I tell them to STFU.

I have no friends :-)

I don't ever, ever waste much time arguing with fools.

[Ishoutandscream2]

56. We're surrounded by them, aren't we?

Extremely radical people. I'm sorry you have no friends here. My co-workers (for the most part), my wife's family, even my friends from college days - very right wing. You just have to learn to cope down here. I hope you can get somewhere someday to be with people like us.

[sendero]

55. Yes..

.. there are a lot of ignorant fucks in Texas. But there are a lot of progressives too.

Where I work, of those who have expressed a political stance (and IMHO you are better off not) it's about 60/40 conservative/liberal.

Outside of work, since I live in a small town, the numbers aren't as good. I've heard many a bullshit comment made and as hard as it is for me I just let it go. Nobody is going to change anyone's mind, especially a tiny little mind, in a heated conversation. So just basically ignoring the bullshit is the best you can do.

[Ishoutandscream2]

58. Agreed

In the area I'm in, it's about 85 to 15 (just looking at how the county voted). But there are areas of some sanity.

[PatSeg]

62. I'm still learning not to take the right-wing bait

I'm trying not to get embroiled in pointless political debates where there is no winning. A few times I bit my tongue and just laughed. "You need to turn off FOX News, it is just propaganda." That usually is met with silence - How does she know I watch FOX News? Evidently they don't realize they are merely repeating bogus talking points. They honestly think they are "informed".