Rule of thumb: if someone says ''I'm all for X but...''

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

...they actually hate X and want it to disappear.

[TriMera]

1. K&R. n/t

[Bragi]

2. Here's a Washington corrollary...

Any Washington-based group calling itself "Citizens for Good Stuff" is always a corporate front group founded to oppose good stuff.

[Taverner]

3. "Yeah, but..." = Everything you just said means nothing to me

[Brickbat]

4. "But" pretty much erases everything that comes before it.

I read that in a book about how to talk to kids and I try to avoid it.

"You played great, but..."

"I like this picture, but..."

"Your grades are good, but..."

It's possible to give positive and critical feedback or information without one erasing the other.

[JoePhilly]

13. "I don't want you to have sex, but ..."

Clearly means that you want them to have sex then, no?

[Brickbat]

18. No, it means that "I don't want" doesn't have any standing anymore and you don't expect the other

person to take it into consideration.

[JoePhilly]

23. If I did not want her to take it into consideration, I would not have said it.

The fact that I said it tells my daughter (and my son for that matter) that I want them to take it into consideration.

When I had this discussion with my son, and I told him what I wanted ... "don't have sex".

And then, we discussed what HE wanted ... and that I understood what he wanted because I was once a teenager. And so that is where the "but" occurs.

We also discussed that since I could not be there all the time, there were important decisions about this that he would be making all alone.

We discussed that even if he had the will-power to "say no", his girlfriend might not, and that she might be pressing him ... this is not often discussed, the idea that the girl is the one pushing for sex, but I had it happen more than once as a teen.

And if you are not ready for it, you make mistakes.

[Brickbat]

30. Alrighty then.

[ZombieHorde]

5. Rules of thumb can impede critical thinking, so be careful. nt

[damntexdem]

6. Critical thinking can impede rules of thumb, so be careful about too much ...

critical thinking. ;-)

[ZombieHorde]

7. I guess we all have our priorities. :) nt

[Thav]

34. Critical thinking is hard...

let's go shopping.

[justiceischeap]

8. Often when someone gives me a compliment but then throws in a "but"

I only keep hold of the 'but you suck' portion of the statement.

[pipi_k]

16. Yeah, but sometimes it isn't about "you suck"....

I mean, imagine someone saying, "You know, you have really beautiful eyes, BUT that blue eyeshadow covers up their beauty".


It's not you that sucks...it's the blue eyeshadow...

:)

[edhopper]

9. I am all for legalizing pot but..

uh....um...what was i saying?

[Withywindle]

10. "I'm not a racist, but..."

"I'm not a homophobe, but..."

"I'm not a sexist, but..."




Yeah, what comes after those phrases is just never, ever good.

[JoePhilly]

11. I don't want my daughter to have sex as a teenager ... but ...

having been a teenager once, I know that I better talk to her about sex, the potential consequences, and how to have safe sex when and if the time comes.

So ... does that mean I want my daughter to sleep around?

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. No, it means the preface, before the 'but' can be completely disregarded.

Everything after the 'but' says what you really want to say.

[JoePhilly]

21. So my daughter should not think that I don't want her to have sex as a teen.

If I wanted to tell her that if she does decide to have sex, it needs to be safe sex, I could do that ... but ... there it is again ... I also want her to know that I really don't want her to have sex as a teen. And, I can articulate many reasons why.

But ...

Teens often act outside of reason. And so, you can tell them what you want them to do ... AND also deal with what they MIGHT DO.

Or is this a semantic game?

Can we replace "but" with "however"??

Or no.

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. Your feelings on the matter are immaterial - what is important is the

information imparted after the 'but'.

What is more important? "I don't want you to have sex before you're ready" (eyeroll "I KNOW Daddy! Gheeze!);

or "This is what you need to do to be safe ... and even that is no guarantee."

As a writer, and editor, whenever I see a 'but' in a sentence, I look at it very closely and 99% of the time, what precedes it is useless, redundant, immaterial excess verbiage.

[JoePhilly]

27. And as a Psychologist ... when I hear pseudo Psychologists explain human behavior to me ...

I roll MY eyes.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

35. Do you mean to say only a Psychologist can explain human behavior?

[JoePhilly]

37. We tend to be a little better at it then most ... that's why they give you a PhD for it.

Bt let me ask you ... when your sink is blocked, and you can't figure out how to fix it ... do you call a Plumber or a Psychologist?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

48. No offense but I wouldn't call a Psychologist for anything.

The Psychologists I know are crazier than their clients. And I've known quite a few.

At least the plumber can fix my sink AND listen to me gripe and moan about how life is unfair. I say it's a two-fer.:)

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. I never said I was a psychologist - I said I was a writer and editor

and you are treading on MY turf with your parsing of grammatical structure.

I disagree with the OP claiming that what "they actually hate X and want it to disappear" (though that is often the case). I merely contend that the true meaning of the statement is held in the clause that follows the conjunction. I have a bad habit of overwriting, and that is one of the first things I look to eliminate.

As for the OP, I took it as being the hyperbolic statement it was intended to be, and I don't know why anyone would pick a fight over it.

[JoePhilly]

38. Ok, so let's back up ...

What is the text of the OP?

"Rule of thumb: if someone says ''I'm all for X but...' and then in the body ... "they actually hate X and want it to disappear."

This is not a question of grammatical structure.

As written, its a claim about the spoken word, not the written word, although you could extend it there too. But beyond that, it is really an attempt to claim knowledge about the "speaker / writer" and their motivations, based on the use of one word, "but".

It is nonsense.

And as you note, the OP is making a hyperbolic statement ... and (but?) I'd suggest that their intent WAS a fight. They are looking for disagreement.

Why make a point using such an approach if NOT to elicit contrary views?

The idea that you know what anyone believes, or supports, based on their use of the word "but" is ridiculous.

[TroglodyteScholar]

42. +1

Some people really think they've got it all figured out.

[Wait Wut]

12. NUH UH!!!

I'm all for cake, but I prefer brownies. I totally don't want cake to disappear. Birthday brownies are no fun at all.

Yes, I'm being a total smartass.

[dmallind]

14. Don't agree here.

What a person hopes for and what they can achieve, or what they must accept, are very frequently different.

I am all for my being a gorgeous billionaire playboy with the sexual capacity of a rutting baboon, but sadly I remain an overweight pasty middle class has-been. On a more serious political note I truly am, with no wavering at all, all for the rigid separation of church and state in US politics, but I know the Christian hegemony of the electorate and the passive-aggressive insistence of majority believers on fearing oppression means I will never live to see anything like it.

[pipi_k]

15. Not all the time...

I'm all for freedom of choice for women BUT...

I chose not to have an abortion myself.



I'm all for legalizing pot BUT...

I don't like the stuff myself



Please don't generalize

[hfojvt]

19. I am all for your rule of thumb, but

I doubt it can be universally applied.

I have been chastized on DU for concluding that "stupid, worthless, no good, freeloading, SOB, big mouth, know-it-all, a$$hole jerk" was hateful, so I am not sure how you can get away with inferring hate just from the word 'but'.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

20. Duh. That's why it's a rule of thumb.

[seabeyond]

22. wrong. i am not into abortion but i would fight someones right to. not into guns, but fight their

right to own.

not into sexism, racism or homophobia but would fight for right of speech.

you are wrong.

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. Everything before the 'but' is excess verbiage.

I would fight for someone's right to...

That says it all.

[JoePhilly]

39. I would fight for someone's right to have an abortion, but I would never have one.

Now what?

As in our other part of this discussion ... you seem focused on "excessive verbiage".

That is an issue, at times in the written word.

When people speak to each other directly, they "waste" lots of words by comparison. The discuss the same topics over and over. And when they do they add new thoughts, ideas, and experiences.

If you take their discussions and crush them down, the reality is that they are having many of the same discussions over and over.

So, a writer tries to be concise, minimize repetition ... but when speaking, that is not the case.

[pipi_k]

40. One person's "excess verbiage"...

could be another person's "I like hearing details".

Even without looking at your profile first, I could tell you are a man.

This is a situation I've dealt with many times with men.

They don't seem to want details. I had a male boss who was that way to an extreme. "Just cut to the chase", he would say.

Well, I'm not a man. I talk in details a lot of the time. Even Mr Pip gets annoyed with me because I don't "cut to the chase".

That doesn't mean your way is wrong.

It also doesn't mean it's RIGHT.

It's just a different way of communication.

[seabeyond]

45. again, wrong. you dont get to dictate how i express. i have every right to say i am anti abortion

for myself

or

anti gun
for myself.

you are telling me, i have to express myself as you DEMAND i make a statement.

it is relevant that i am against abortion, or against guns, or against racism, sexism, or homophobia, but will fight for the right.

who are you to tell me what i express is important, relevant, or not

[yawnmaster]

46. The but should not be discounted. The but is an important part...

of the English language.
It highlights contrasts when the author desires.

[WatsonT]

25. Not necessarily

there are degrees, shades of grey.

[aikoaiko]

28. Not really.

[Fly by night]

29. Not always. Back in mid-May, I posted a thread entitled:

"You won't find a stronger supporter of medical cannabis here at DU than me. Having said that..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=1100420

The OP had to do with my criticism of the shoddy, sleazy, sexist ways that a few medical cannabis dispensaries in Denver were advertising their wares using crude come-ons and semi-nude ("butt-naked") models in their ads. My point was that the use of crude, sexist imagery to promote medical cannabis was self-defeating and hindering, rather than helping, the expanded availability of medical cannabis in other states.

Someone immediately joined the discussion making your argument, that everything I said before "having said that" was null and void. I asked that person (repeatedly) to point out even one example or statement in my OP which indicated my less-than-full support for medical cannabis, much less my disapproval of it. After several "but, but..." responses from the other person, they finally stopped playing.

Here's your formula, as applied to my OP:

"I am all for x BUT if you do y, you weaken the chances for x."

[yawnmaster]

31. All generalizations are false. eom

[TroglodyteScholar]

44. (Divide by zero) n/t

[GeorgeGist]

32. ...

:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

[Nye Bevan]

33. I love DU, but some of the posts are kind of lame (nt)

[TroglodyteScholar]

41. I understand where you're coming from, but you're dead wrong.

To use an example from a recent thread...I truly am all for legalizing cannabis...BUT the absurd arguments I see from some supporters are laughable to the point of being detrimental to the cause. Pointing this out gets you called ignorant, etc. But I'm not the one living in a fantasy.

Accuse me of being against legalization if you like. I know where I stand.

[Iggo]

43. I'm not a racist butt. (n/t)

[yawnmaster]

47. I all for you having your opinion, but I don't agree with it. eom