Thoughts on "Operation Fast and Furious"

[IndyPragmatist]

Hundreds of US guns were bought, resold and sent to Mexican drug cartels in an Arizona sting operation while US firearms agents were ordered not to intervene, Congress has heard.

Three firearms agents said they were told to track the movement of the weaponry, but not to make any arrests.

US lawmakers expressed outrage at the details of Operation Fast and Furious.

The news comes one day after a report suggested Mexican drug cartels have armed themselves with US weapons.

The report suggests some 70% of firearms recovered from Mexican crime scenes in 2009 and 2010 and submitted for tracing came from the US.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13785080


I haven't seen much discussion of this topic. I thought I would bring it up again.

[KharmaTrain]

1. Hillary Clinton Brought This Up...

IRC she spoke about it in late '09 or early '10 and was shouted down and ridiculed by the gun lobby and their rushpublican toadies.

US made arms have been fueling the drug wars in Mexico for a long time and has turned Ciudad Juarez and Nogales into virtual war zones. Just as the case with "illegal immigration"...the financial component always trumps the cost in human lives. Black market guns and ammo mean big bucks to US gun dealers just as cheap labor means profits to large corporate farms. Just another example of how the "War on Drugs" is another corporate welfare program.

[Lurks Often]

2. Did you even read the article

before you trotted out the standard anti-gun talking points?

ATF Field agents and the gun stores involved protested what they were being told to do and were told to do it anyway be senior management in both the ATF and DOJ. I'd be interested in why the Democrats in the House and Senate choose not to investigate such an obviously illegal endeavor.*



*Illegal because ATF has no authority outside of the US and they did not work with Mexican authorities to investigate and arrest the people receiving the illegally obtained firearms.

[KharmaTrain]

5. So Guns Aren't Being Traded For Drugs?

And there isn't a black market in guns heading south?

This isn't "anti-gun"...it's a reality for thousands of terrorized people on the Mexican side of the U.S. border. Fact is when SOS Clinton brought up this illegal trade she was shouted down on right wing radio and faux noise...mouth pieces of the gun lobby.

Yes, I've read reports about this ATF scandal, but this is only part of the problem. There were lots of other arms in Mexico before and have been traced to the US.

This is not an indictment against the NRA so don't get all twisted up...it's about the greed on both sides of the border that have led to incredible suffering. Hopefully you don't condone this...

[Lurks Often]

15. I don't condone the greed and suffering

and the US and it's appetite for drugs is a large part of the problem.

As for the guns being traced to the US, it is over-stated. I am not going to say that no guns from the US make into Mexico, but many of the guns being seized by Mexican authorities are military weapons that are simply not available in the US. You are not going into a gun show, gun store or private sale here in the US and getting grenades, grenade launchers and fully automatic weapons. With all of the money available cartels, why should they settle for a semi-automatic version of a gun that they can get a full auto version of?

And I never mentioned the NRA.

[KharmaTrain]

18. So Where Do They Come From?

A serious query. I have seen reports of the high-powered weaponry the cartels have but they have to come from somewhere. The U.S. is still the world's leading arms merchant and it appears these cartels have found a way to connect into this large market. Is there a third party government involved or some of these companies letting these weapons slip off the loading dock? While I have heard that military grade weapons can be obtained I have no real knowledge in the area. My concern is how the violence has escalated in recent years as more "security" has been spent in border security. Sadly there's precious little corporate media coverage on this matter. It's too dangerous to cover and easier to obsess for weeks about a Congressman's willie.

Cheers...

[Lurks Often]

23. Lots of places

The US is certainly not the only country that exports small arms: Germany (H&K), Belgium (FN), Switzerland (SIG), Israel (IAI), Czech Republic (CZ), Austria (Glock & Steyr), China, Russia, any of the former Soviet Bloc countries that had a AK factory and probably more countries that I am missing. Most of the countries in Europe, North and South America and the richer countries in Asia have the ability to manufacture either weapons of their own designs or manufacture other designs under license.

Now each country has it's own laws as to who and what they will export. The country in question legally exports the small arms to a government that needs them. From this point is where it starts getting complicated. Maybe the government buys something newer and puts the old guns into a warehouse where they end up being stolen, or they sell them to an international arms dealer, who then sells them somewhere else. In the case of Mexico, I believe that many of the weapons are being stolen from the Mexican military and police or bought from people within the military and police.

Corruption plays a part too, you have drug cartels that have lots of money, a willingness to kill people and ability to get to almost anyone. For example, you are a honest, hard working person who is in charge of a Mexican armory. One day someone comes to you and offers you a choice: We will pay you $50,000 (or $100,000 or $1 million) to go home early sick one day and leave the armory unattended OR we kill you and you're family. If the Mexican cartels can get to police chiefs and attorney generals, they sure as hell can get to some poor guy just trying to make a living for him and his family.

I think Mexico is screwed, I don't see a quick way out for them (or a way for us to really be able to help them) that is either currently legal or politically acceptable.

[spin]

24. One of the best reports on the sources of Mexican cartel guns is at this link ...

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

[KharmaTrain]

26. Thank You For Posting...

By no means do I believe that its solely US gun dealers who are profiting here or that its guns bought in the US that is the main source of weaponry in this long running war. It's a far more complicate issue that is fed by the large money being made in both smuggling drugs and people across the border.

I've seen the various border patrol shows but always keep in mind from whose point of view its being presented. Also that we only see this side of things and not much of what's going on in Northern Mexico. It's too dangerous and the corruption, as the article abtly states is so endemic its made a bad situation a lot worse.

[spin]

27. If I lived in Mexico in an area where the drug cartels were common ...

I would be doing my best to acquire firearms for the defense of my family. Mexico has very strict gun laws and draconian limits are placed on the type of firearms a civilian can own. I suspect a percentage of the firearms bought in U.S. gun stores by straw purchasers end up in the hands of basically honest citizens who have no connection with crime.

Drug cartels have aggressively turned to the United States because Mexico severely restricts gun ownership. Following gunrunning paths that have been in place for 50 years, firearms cross the border and end up in the hands of criminals as well as ordinary citizens seeking protection.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/12/AR2010121202663.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2010121203267

Interestingly enough, a Mexican police chief has mentioned trying to make it easier for honest people to buy firearms in Mexico.

May 31, 2011 10:35 AM

7 killed in attacks in Mexican resort of Acapulco

***snip***

Ramon Almonte, the Guerrero state police chief, said on Monday he will ask the federal congress to make it easier for common citizens to get permits for weapons to defend themselves.

Almonte's brother was killed on Jan. 1 in a rural town in Guerrero by unidentified gunmen. The state has been plagued by such executions.

"When you fight someone and at least you have a 'piece,' the person who is attacking you might think twice," Almonte said. "We cannot go on the way we are."

***snip***

"Having a weapon should be a right, because the bad guys are few and we, the good guys, are many, so we can't allow ourselves to be held hostage by the few," Almonte said.

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/31/travel/main20067528.shtml#ixzz1Pw199JuY

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. So, when the DEA makes drug purchases over a period of a year or so

without making any arrests, so they can learn who the street dealers, middle men, importers and bosses are, THAT is ok; but when the ATF allows the illegal traffic of weapons so they can learn the chain of buyers, smugglers, and ultimate owners of the weapons, THAT is a terrible idea.

Maybe they didn't cooperate with Mexican authorities because they KNOW that 60% of Mexican law enforcement has bee corrupted by the cartels, and they wanted to use this investigation to find out who was getting paid off, so when they DO approach the authorities they know who to approach.

Did you even read the article before you trotted out the standard anti-ATF talking points? (By the way, you left out 'jack-booted thugs').

[Upton]

8. Both the ATF and DEA should be disbanded..

[Lurks Often]

11. Yawn

if "they KNOW that 60% of Mexican law enforcement has bee corrupted by the cartels,", they never should have proceeded with such an ill conceived plan. Besides the cartels already have hundreds of weapons that are already illegal under Mexican law, either bought illegal from other countries in South America, stolen from the Mexican military and police or bought from the Mexican military and police.

And I would object if the DEA did something similar. If they can not arrest the people involved because the people are outside of US jurisdiction and that there is no expectation of significant cooperation from the foreign government, then the resources should be allocated elsewhere.

[Aerows]

20. I don't think it's okay

for the DEA to be making drug purchases, either. What a waste of my tax dollars. I'd prefer that money was spent taking care of our citizens, our infrastructure and our country instead of chasing drug dealers. If drugs were legal, there would no longer be a need to drug peddlers. That's not going to happen, though, because drug manufacturers and pill mills make way too much money off of the legal prescription drugs.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Yes I remember that

First thing I thought of when I saw this story on the news the other day.

[Township75]

14. "US made arms have been fueling the drug wars in Mexico for a long time " WTF??

US demand for drugs that are illegal is what is fueling the drug war not guns. There is money to be made.

[KharmaTrain]

19. The Lessons Of Prohibition Repeated

The money is made cause being illegal drugs can and do make its dealers lots of money. The chicken and egg thing here. We see that with billions squandered and endless lives wasted in so many ways that the demand for drugs in this country remain strong and the more one attempts to clamp down the more the other side will meet the challenge and demand and make a profit.

The guns...especially military grade weapons...surely are illegal, especially in Mexico and the arms war going on in that country is being fueled by people on this side of the border. It's also a viscious cycle that seems to get worse as more money and miliary are involved.

Bottom line is the current "War on Drugs" is a massive failure and is now fueling what is in essence a civil war in northern Mexico. And there's precious little coverage of this...

[snooper2]

4. I think the whole thing was a scam

Getting young idiot kids to put fart cans on their cars and now these stupid things from Autozone--



Really, unless you are driving an old Buick or a new Caddy, those make you car look fucking asinine. I think the whole fast-n-furious thing was a scam backed by some cheap manufactures to get this crap sold :P

[slackmaster]

7. The reports of Mexican drug gangs arming themselves with US weapons have been around for many years

Sure, a majority of the weapons may have come from the US but not from the civilian sporting arms market. They've been diverted from Mexican government sources (police and military) and smuggled in from Central America where they were used by various US-backed dictators and rebels including the Contras of Nicaragua.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Present your evidence. nt

[slackmaster]

13. Read and become educated

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. That is a bullshit article.

It first starts with a strawman - that "90% of the cartels weapons come from the US". Nowhere does it say where it got that claim, which it then proceeds to knock down.

It talks about the successful tracing of

"the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008 and less than 48 percent of all those submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF for tracing. This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States."

Woo hoo. Of course it IMPLIES that that is the whole story, even though it goes on to say

"The remaining 22,800 firearms seized by Mexican authorities in 2008 were not traced for a variety of reasons. In addition to factors such as bureaucratic barriers and negligence, many of the weapons seized by Mexican authorities either do not bear serial numbers or have had their serial numbers altered or obliterated. It is also important to understand that the Mexican authorities simply don’t bother to submit some classes of weapons to the ATF for tracing."

What it does NOT say is what the percentage is that were clearly identified as being from local sources, from other foreign sources, and what percentage were not submitted because of negligence, corruption, or acknowledged inability to identify the source due to obliterate serial numbers. That means than there could be any percentage of that other 75% that was not submitted that could have come from the US - 10%?, 90%? Who knows? All that matters here is knocking down the mythical '90% came from the US' strawman, which is never attributed. Those 'some classes' they didn't bother submitting, like the Korean grenades - they don't mention if that is 1% or 15% of the 22,000 not traced.

You can hide a lot of bullshit in selective statistics.

[spin]

25. Obama made the claim that 90 percent of Mexico's recovered crime guns come from the U.S.

watch the video of Obama speaking in Mexico:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgkh_1sgFrs

Also read the Brady Campaign report "Exporting Gun Violence" at http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/pdf/reports/exporting-gun-violence.pdf

American gun sellers are supplying the cartels with the
guns used to wage war. Upwards of 90% of the crime guns
used by the drug cartels and recovered and traced by law
enforcement originate from U.S. gun sellers.2 With more than
7,600 U.S. gun shops within 100 miles of the Mexican border,3
and numerous gun shows and unlicensed sellers, Mexican drug
lords and the gun traffickers who supply them have access to a
virtually unlimited arsenal of military-style assault weapons and
other high firepower guns. Estimates of the guns flowing into
Mexico are as high as 2,000 weapons per day.4 ATF has
described an “iron river of guns” that are “streaming across the
border at such a pace that some are being recovered in Mexico
within days after their purchase in the U.S.”5

Obviously a percentage of firearms used by the drug cartels do come from American gun stores. However the cartels often use fully automatic modern military assault rifles and machine guns which may have originated in the United States as aid to the Mexican government but which were diverted to the cartels by corrupt officials or deserters from the Mexican army.

Cartels' Weapons Made In America?
POSTED: 7:10 pm PDT April 1, 2009

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives claimed Mexican cartels received about 95 percent of their weapons from American gun sellers.

***snip***

Marc Halcon is a forensic firearms consultant and works at the American Shooting Center in San Diego. He said U.S. gun shops are taking the blame for supplying the cartels with weapons, but in reality many of these high-powered weapons come from the U.S. government and are given to the Mexican military to fight the cartels.

***snip***

"What you're seeing here, these are all basically military firearms," Halcon told 10News. "We sent millions of dollars -- we meaning the government -- to the war on drugs to the government of Mexico and to the military. And from there they filter their way out."

Halcon continued, "Now you're talking about a military that has over 1,200 soldiers a month go AWOL and leave the military to go to the drug dealers' side. Of course when they go, they take the guns with them."
http://www.10news.com/news/19071202/detail.html#-

[slackmaster]

28. Here's a letter from the ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee that explains it well

http://grassley.senate.gov/judiciary/upload/Guns-06-16-11-signed-letter-to-Melson-incomplete-gun-data.pdf

[MicaelS]

30. So this is bullshit too?

The third category of weapons encountered in Mexico is military-grade ordnance not generally available for sale in the United States or Mexico. This category includes hand grenades, 40 mm grenades, rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs), automatic assault rifles and main battle rifles and light machine guns.

This third type of weapon is fairly difficult and very expensive to obtain in the United States, especially in the large numbers in which the cartels are employing them. They are also dangerous to obtain in the United States due to heavy law enforcement scrutiny. Therefore, most of the military ordnance used by the Mexican cartels comes from other sources, such as the international arms market — increasingly from China via the same networks that furnish precursor chemicals for narcotics manufacturing — or from corrupt elements in the Mexican military or even deserters who take their weapons with them. Besides, items such as South Korean fragmentation grenades and RPG-7s, often used by the cartels, simply are not in the U.S. arsenal. This means that very few of the weapons in this category come from the United States.

In recent years the cartels, especially their enforcer groups such as Los Zetas, Gente Nueva and La Linea, have been increasingly using military weaponry instead of sporting arms. A close examination of the arms seized from the enforcer groups and their training camps clearly demonstrates this trend toward military ordnance, including many weapons not readily available in the United States. Some of these seizures have included M60 machine guns and hundreds of 40 mm grenades obtained from the military arsenals of countries like Guatemala.

But Guatemala is not the only source of such weapons. Latin America is awash in weapons that were shipped there over the past several decades to supply the various insurgencies and counterinsurgencies in the region. When these military-grade weapons are combined with the rampant corruption in the region, they quickly find their way into the black arms market. The Mexican cartels have supply-chain contacts that help move narcotics to Mexico from South America, and they are able to use this same network to obtain guns from the black market in South and Central America and then smuggle them into Mexico. While there are many weapons in this category that were manufactured in the United States, the overwhelming majority of the U.S.-manufactured weapons of this third type encountered in Mexico — like LAW rockets and M60 machine guns — come into Mexico from third countries and not directly from the United States.

So in other words, if the cross border gun trade in CIVILIAN SMALL ARMS was COMPLETELY shut down, the cartels would still be obtaining military-grade ordnance from China, and Central and South America. And I'm sure American gun prohibitionists would find a way to blame that on the NRA, guns stores, and American gun owners,

[MadHound]

10. Ummm, no. The facts say otherwise

"But A.T.F. officials estimate 90 percent of the weapons recovered in Mexico come from dealers north of the border."
<http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/us/26borders.html>
<http://borderviolenceanalysis.typepad.com/mexicos_drug_war/weapons-trafficking/>
<http://dailynightly.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2009/02/24/4373531-us-guns-arming-mexican-drug-traffickers>

I could continue with the links, but it would get tedious, because they all say the same thing, that the vast majority of guns used by the Mexican drug gangs are indeed coming from dealers north of the border. Like it or not, that is the truth.

Which means we're not only providing the reason for this increased violence through our demand for illegal drugs, but we're also providing the means with which it is being fought. Hmmm.

And sadly, this is spilling over into the US, and will becoming a growing problem in the years ahead if we don't do something about it. The easiest and simplest solution would be to end our War on Drugs, legalize them and take away that revenue stream.

But sadly, our country is not that wise.

[slackmaster]

12. That 90 percent figure refers to weapons SUBMITTED TO THE BATFE FOR TRACING

Why would the Mexican government bother submitting weapons that obviously did not come from the US, or weapons that it knew were diverted from its own military (leading to embarrassment.)

Many of the seized weapons are covered by the National Firearms Act and could never have been sold on the civilian market. For example, grenades, grenade launchers, and anti-tank weapons.

http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/2010/05/17/is-the-flow-of-u-s-weapons-to-mexican-drug-cartels-increasing-under-obama.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story

[MadHound]

16. So really, you have nothing but anecdotal evidence to back up your claim

Yes, some weapons are coming from elsewhere, but certainly nowhere near the majority of seized weapons. That number is, as both your sources and mine state, is coming from the US. ". . .the military-grade munitions are still a small fraction of the larger arsenal in the hands of narcotics traffickers." From your own link.

Meanwhile, the flood of AK-47's and AR-15's across the border is still fueling the drug wars in Mexico. And again, the vast majority of those weapons are coming from right here in the good ol' US of A.

[slackmaster]

21. Yeah, it's just an "anecdote" that you can't buy grenades at Wal-Mart

:eyes:

[X_Digger]

31. Actually, we have it from the MX president himself..

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/05/mexican_president_challenges_c.html

Just to give you an idea, we have seized 75,000 guns and assault weapons in Mexico in the last three years. And more than 80 percent of those we have been able to trace came from the United States — from the United States.

75,000 in 3 years seized total.. ~25k per year.

Now, when you add up the numbers of guns that were traced to the US..

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09781t.pdf

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/issue_brief_mexico_2010.pdf

You get 14,209 .. or roughly 19% (eta: of 75,000).

[Ian David]

22. They were going to use the money to buy missiles for the Iranians using Contra drug money.

So, it's all good.


:sarcasm:

[krispos42]

29. Haven't seen much? Wander on over to the Gungeon

It's been a topic of discussion for a couple of months now.


"submitted to tracing"... important caveat to remember.