my son was bit by a dog, monday. friday, my 72 yr old father was attacked by a dog.

[seabeyond]

72. old. really old. balance is not the same. muscles are not the same. attacked.

he came over sunday for dinner and when i walked into the kitchen, my stomach just got sick. starting with his face, taped together. his 72 yr old hand, swollen four, five times normal from hitting the dog, trying to stop it chewing on him, while he had laid on the ground. the back of his head in stitches from falling on the stairs. arms and legs taped together and stapled. one leg torn up and i could not look at it.

he went to a house to deliver something. the woman thought... FUCKIN THOUGHT she had the dog under control. obviously not. she knew there was an issue with the dog, cause really, she THOUGHT she had it under control.

monday, my son went swimming with a friend. he has been to the house many times. the parent didn't know kids were coming back to house, and they let the dog they are keeping there for a while, out of the bedroom they keep it in. why do they keep it in the bedroom? cause it FUCKIN BITES people. my son walked in the house, and the dog bit him. bruised badly and two fangs got in pretty deep.

ANYONE who has a dog that they KNOW is aggressive and they chose to keep this dog, and that dog ends up hurting another person..... you are a piece. of. shit. human. being.

i feel nothing but contempt and disgust for the person that is willing to put others at risk.

i am so mad. my father wants to be all manly and say it is not a big deal. i am so disgusted, and so angry, that anyone allowed my father to be hurt in this manner. i dont know how he survived. he was on the ground, was unconscious or doesn't remember how he got away. but i see my father on that ground fighting for his life.... because the woman could not control or get animal off my father, and it makes me sick.

[DrDan]

1. K&R - dogs can be VERY protective

they are not always necessarily the "angels" owners see while interacting with the family.

[Codeine]

2. My sympathies for your family, seabeyond.

Irresponsible dog owners - and most days it seems that's just about all of them - just fucking burn me. .

[NNN0LHI]

3. I had a woman with a dog once warn me she was having trouble controlling her big nasty dog one day

I had just turned the corner with my little dog and I seen some woman with a huge mangy looking mutt jumping around uncontrollably up the street trying to warn me not to continue coming her way and she kept pointing at her dog.

I yelled out her way "Its alright, I have my gun with me."(I really didn't), and she gave her dog one crack in the head and said something to it and he simmered right down and they both walked into her house.

Sorry to hear about your dad and son.

Don

[seabeyond]

33. we had a lot of people over for dinner last night. i said, that is why we should carry....

i got silence for a moment then everyone started busting up laughing. i am the only ANTI gun person in the house.

[mistertrickster]

105. Heh, don't know if you've heard already, there was a little pistol

called a Velo-dog specifically made for bicyclists to shoot dogs that attacked them.



Most were Belgian and fired a .22 sized bullet, circa 1895 . . . .

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. My son was bit three times before he was 5. The third time was very serious.

We lived in a neighborhood where folks let their dogs run wild. A German Shepherd bit him the first time when he was 3 yrs old. He was riding his bike and I was walking behind him and this dog came out of nowhere and attacked him. The people who owned the dog never apologized and we were just grateful it wasn't a very serious bite.

A year later, same dog. This time he was playing across the street and again, the dog just came from nowhere but this time he bit and hung on and shook my son. I was in my front yard, saw the whole thing, ran over and it took me and the man across the street to get the dog off of my 4 yr old son.

Still upsets me to remember.

We called the police and an ambulance. He was rushed to the hospital. By the time the cops got there the dog was gone and the people who owned it denied it had been out of their yard so there was no way it could have bit my son. They told the police officers that we were lying.

We ended up having to take our neighbors to court and the judge ordered them to get rid of the dog or he would order it put down. And the city started watching our street for stray dogs. That upset the dog owners on our block and several of them never spoke to us again the entire time we lived there.

It's been nearly 30 years and I swear, if that man who owned that dog walked up to me today I'd have no problem slapping him.

[raccoon]

15. I'm glad you took those irresponsible neighbors to court. nt

[Le Taz Hot]

5. I'm terrified of unknown dogs for exactly that reason.

Second-to-famous-last words: "Fluffy doesn't bite!"

Famous-last-words: "I don't understand, Fluffy's never done that before!" Bullshit, my guess is that "Fluffy" has done it plenty of times before.

People need to train their animals for their own safety and the safety of others.

[Love Bug]

28. Even if "Fluffy" hasn't done it before, who wants to be the first?

I always steer clear of stray dogs and make sure mine is always on a short leash. She's not a biter, but any dog will be if they feel provoked in some way.

[handmade34]

6. so sorry about your Dad and Son...

I know the feeling of anger towards people who don't control their dogs (or any domestic pet). My kids are runners and all run on country roads. They complain a lot about the dogs that threaten and scare them. My daughter was bit a year or so ago and now even avoids some roads because the loose dogs scare her. It is a source of conversation often when we get together and I find the people who own these dogs reprehensible

[Wilms]

7. Final Hope : Gaining Control of Your Aggressive Dog

The first truly comprehensive approach to dealing with an aggressive dog.The book looks first at the roots of aggression, examining the different types of canine aggression and what can cause them. It then turns to practical solutions: The physical and mental tools you'll need, patterns of training that can head off trouble and correcting specific problems. Help in setting realistic goals and expectations, and on permanently getting control of an aggressive dog with exercises for a lifetime, round out this very comprehensive, thoroughly researched book.

http://www.amazon.com/Final-Hope-Gaining-Control-Aggressive/dp/0876053657

[haikugal]

18. Thanks, I just ordered this for my over protective Boston/Minpin terrier.

I'm so sorry to hear about these aggressive dogs and their irresponsible owners. I hope your father recovers from his injuries and is back to (a new) normal soon. Maybe he should carry bear spray for these occasions...just a thought.

[Wilms]

19. You're welcome.

Actually it was the OP's dad who was injured.

Best of luck with your pup. I think you'll be amazed at how simple (if a bit time-consuming) it is to help a dog settle down. They really want to please us. They sometimes just don't know how. Also, my sense is that until they chill a bit, they are less thoughtful and more reactionary. Once they calm down a little, the brain engages and the fearful/aggressive responses recede.

Arf.

[haikugal]

32. Agree on all counts

I intended my thoughts for the OP but didn't want to make two separate posts...should have been more clear.

He was given to me at 3mo and I was very sick his first year so he didn't get my usual training...he's a good little fellow but terriers are pugnacious and smart/single minded...he's also fearless, all good for a ratter but a challenge in other ways.

I agree with you Arf...lol

[KurtNYC]

48. I think many owners inadvertantly nurture the aggression

Some perceive the aggression, snarling, barking, growling, in small dogs as "cute" when it is aimed at larger dogs or people. But owners of any size dog who think of their dog as "protecting them" when it is aggressive are a problem.

They use the same phrases as people who live with raging alcoholics -- "he didn't mean too" "he is not usually like that" etc. They are enablers by nature.

Some adopt dogs that they "feel sorry for" and then put up with any behavior issues because they 1) believe the dog is acting out based on what happened in its past, or 2) they are incapable of training (perhaps due to attitude).

[Wilms]

98. Sometimes all you need to do to nurture the aggressio n is pulling the leash taught.

The restriction of the dogs movement is enough to make it fear the vulnerability that appears to create. I've seen it over and over again. Often, merely releasing the tension very often calms the dog. But also, some corrective action, including let the dog know you'd like them to cool it is key.

It's really the owner who has to get a better mind-set and knowledge of the dynamics. I've helped many people with some simple ideas that helped THEM and their dog relax.

[get the red out]

8. Thoughts for your father and son

I understand loving a dog, I love mine intensely (non-aggressive, medium-sized mutt), but my husband and I have worked to train and socialize her from the time she was a pup and she's still a work in progress.

I read a lot about problems with aggressive dogs these days and wish people would take advantage of resources available for dog owners today that were basically unheard of years ago, like lower cost training at big chain pet supply stores, dog parks for socialization, even TV shows about dog training. I am a novice dog owner and am happy we got a dog with a size and temperament I can handle, her big need is exercise but we make provisions to deal with that. A lot of people seem to not think of what they can handle or how much training and time they are willing to put in before they choose a dog and end up with a breed or mix that has tendencies they have no idea what to do about, like a lot of protectiveness. There are breeds I wouldn't have chosen with my limited experience, not because they are "bad dogs" but because I knew I didn't have enough knowledge to meet their needs.

We also end up with people taking the side of the aggressive dog in some cases, for fear of BSL coming into play or something, their hearts are probably good and want to support dogs in general, but it stifles conversation regarding dog aggression.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

9. A lot of people say the same things about their kids.

"Little Bobby's a good kid. He's never done anything like that!"

[enough]

10. I think people let their dogs express hostility that they are too cowardly

to express themselves. I can't count the times jogging or walking in our local woodland park, that people come along with barely controlled dogs who are threatening, barking, growling, straining at the leash, jumping up.

The owners are all friendly and cutesy about "Oh she won't bite, she's just curious." Doing little baby-talk attempts to quiet the dog down. It's perfectly obvious that the dog is acting exactly the way the owner wants it to behave. I never blame the dogs on these occasions. They're at the mercy of their owners, and I don't envy them.

[Shagbark Hickory]

11. They keep it locked up in a bedroom all by itself. Hmm. I wonder why it's aggressive. nt

[jtuck004]

71. +1 n/t

[seabeyond]

74. from what i understand, they keep the dog in there when other people are at the house

it is not their dog. the older daughter goes to college and sometimes drops dog at the house while she is away.

[snagglepuss]

77. No excuse. Those homeowners are liable for taking a potentially vicious and

uncontrollable animal into their care. They are responsible.

[FLPanhandle]

12. I'm surprised people keep known aggressive dogs

It seems like they are just guaranteeing a future lawsuit, not to mention the day to day stress. Also, the dogs can't be having much of a life being locked up all the time.

Why even have one?

[newfie11]

13. irresponsible dog owners and stupid stupid people!

Some people use "mean dogs" for an ego boost. Anyone who owns a dog of any size/temperament/breed has the responsibility of training the dog the correct way and always being vigilant to be sure to dog and anyone/thing around them are safe.

Unfortunately it is the victim and the dog that pays the price for idiot owners.

I own 5 dogs, 4 are very large newfoundlands and one pom. Every dog was socialized early, has manners around people, other dogs, cats etc. and not a mean bone in their bodies. This starts as puppies and we never stop training. I would never EVER let my dogs run loose.

I also grew up with chows.

[HillWilliam]

27. Bravo, and there's the ticket

Every situation is a vehicle to training. Training never stops. It's a measure of love and devotion.

My partner and I have six dogs (we have a large piece of property). They're all rescues, some from pretty rotten situations. It takes a lot of time and a lot of love to train with all-positive methods, but now every one of these fur-kids is socialized, gentle, obedient, and very, VERY loving. Callie, a kuvasz/collie mix had been horribly abused and had some real issues when we took her on. These days, we can take her anywhere. She *loves* to be petted; she's confident, affectionate, and loves to have company. She turns on the charm for attention, but in a very ladylike manner.

What you get out of a dog is what you're willing to put in.

[KurtNYC]

49. +1 training never stops

Dogs are learning all the time, whether you think you are training or not. Up thread someone mentioned an owner sweet talking a dog that had just jumped up or otherwise been ill behaved -- effectively rewarding the dog for that behavior. In effect training the dog to do the same thing next time.

[HillWilliam]

120. +1 on yours as well!

Total 100% agreement! I've been rescuing, rehabilitating, and training dogs for 30mumble years. We've got six now; a couple were pretty tough cases when we adopted them.

Now, I never go anywhere with them that someone doesn't remark how well they react just at a word or a small gesture. I don't raise my voice: I don't have to. People ask what my secret is and I tell them, it's pretty simple: talk to them, talk to them, talk to them, talk to them... and expect a proper reaction in return. Watch them, their postures, their tails, their faces; learn their language, too.

Establish communications and you've suddenly got a marvellous friend and helper. My partner, DUer HillbillyBob, has seizure disorder. When the pup he picked out for a companion suddenly volunteered to alert for his seizures at about 4 months old (she was watching my elderdog), she immediately got put into Puppy Kindergarten -- my name for my training program, that is. Dora and I explored everything together and as we were playing, she learned tasks like picking up dropped objects gently (like glasses, her leash, etc), opening doors, guiding her daddy Rob when he was getting auras, and so on. We played and she thought she was showing off, but in fact she was learning tasks a useful public access/assistant dog should know. She just turned 10 this year and she STILL loves learning new things and showing off her skills. (She's a bit of a chowhound, too, being half cattledog, so treats worked well.)

Well, there is a lot of all-positive reinforcement and redirection behind it, but the thing is, if you put a lot of effort, energy, time, and love into the dog, the dog will be eager to please you. Well, think about it: everyone loves to be told they're smart, pretty/handsome, loved, wanted, appreciated, protected. My dogs would do anything for me because they fully understand I'd do anything for them.

It's always SO much harder to train the human than it is the dog, isn't it.

[KurtNYC]

124. I have been learning more about dog body language

Turid Ruugas has written a lot recently about calming signals -- yawns, sighs, looking away. Really handy stuff to recognize and use. Calm is king when you work with dogs and she has found more ways to induce it. I love hand gestures partly because they convey less emotion than the voice.

[HillWilliam]

125. The best thing I ever did to help my dog training

was to take a bunch of ASL courses. Dogs are very eloquent; we just have to learn to see it. They watch us closely for cues in return. Think of it: their natural mode of communication is body and tail postures, learned from "follow mama" on up.

I belong to a list of folks who have trained their own aide dogs for years. We spent several months on calming signals a long while back. I learned a lot from my list-mates. Years later, I'm still learning. My dogs always give me something new to consider.

Especially in training assistance/aide dogs, calm is king. A bouncy, hyper dog is no good for public access, but not every dog can adapt. Even the ones who can't adapt to public access work have become fantastic companions and dear friends.

[raccoon]

14. Make sure your father gets a GOOD lawyer and sue that woman's drawers off.

I speak as one who was bitten by somebody's dog as a preschooler, and had to have stitches.

[lillypaddle]

16. That's terrible!

I don't blame you for being upset.

[earthside]

17. Another manifestation of consumerism ...

It is an observation of mine that as more people acquire more dogs, these folks control over their dogs has diminished.

I have literally seen this explosion of dog ownership ... for fifteen or more years I have walked around a lake in my neighborhood. Fifteen years ago about 40 percent of my fellow walkers had a companion dog with them; maybe seven of eight years ago it dawned on me that the number of folks with dogs was higher and ... many more had two dogs with them.

These days the number of folks walking with dogs is probably 60 percent and the number with THREE or more dogs is approaching maybe forty percent. Indeed, it is getting rarer to see a person or couple walking with just one dog.

I could recount many incidents I have witnessed of dogs on leashes attacking the dogs of other people as they struggle to control their animals; dogs let off the leash to play, but end up harassing other dogs and/or people; people who won't heel their dogs to let other people walk on the path, and on and on.

And in my immediate neighborhood I have seen it -- a family buys a house and it seems like it is some kind of unspoken law that that means they have to get a dog. So, I am surrounded by people who keep dogs held captive in the backyard -- because these folks don't even take their dogs for walks around the lake or anywhere!

It is my opinion that dog ownership has become just another status symbol of American consumerism -- everybody is 'supposed' to have a dog and if you have one then you can have two or more.

So, is it any wonder that we are seeing an increase in the number of aggressive dogs -- because a whole bunch of the people who own dogs and claim to be "dog lovers" have no business owning a dog -- except that it has become an 'expectation' of the middle class American life style.

The dogs themselves aren't to blame -- it is irresponsible dog owners. The kinds of things that happened to your son and father are the result, in my opinion, of poor animals that probably suffer from a kind of benign neglect.

I've also found, however, that it is the daring the wrath of 'political correctness' to question the extent of dog ownership in our culture these days. But the truth is that it seems to me that too many people own too many dogs and because of that incidents like you described are going to happen more and more.

[sweetapogee]

24. very

informative, comprehensive, well researched and dare I say it; scholarly!

[mistertrickster]

107. My father in law is a veterinarian. His motto: one dog = one good dog.

two dogs = half a dog, three dogs = a pack of wild animals.

[dixiegrrrrl]

110. Well expressed.

I have had more than one dog from time to time. Never works out as well as I would like it to, and frankly I no longer have the time/money/energy for more than one.

[earthside]

127. Very well put.

Your father-in-law has it right ... at least from the things Ive seen.

[AngryAmish]

20. A nice summary of the law

<http://dogbitelaw.com/one-bite-state/texas.html>

Both are good cases. Get thee to a trial lawyer. These folks will help you. Or I'll find one for you if you wish.

[seabeyond]

22. thank you. my father wont do anything. he didnt even make them pay hospital bill.

dog was taken in for ten days. then they decide what to do with dog. i am going to call the pound and insist on dog being put down. he wont.

[mainer]

23. What if you filed a complaint yourself?

Really, this dog needs to be put down before he kills someone.

[seabeyond]

26. that is what i am going to try to do today. see what i can do to get this

dog so he is not sent home after ten days.

[WinkyDink]

21. Just read a news-story of a man who DIED from the saliva of a pet dog's bite.

Dog-bites are dangerous!

[Xithras]

25. Get a lawyer.

They knew the dogs were biters and kept them around anyway. They brought it on themselves, and should be punished severely for it. Relieving them of the wealth they've worked hard to gain is a good way to do it.

I love dogs, and I realize that sometimes dogs bite without warning. I have sympathy for their owners, and believe that they should be shown mercy. But if you KNOW it's a biter and keep it around anyway...well, you've chosen your fate.

My oldest son was bit twice, and both times the dogs were known biters. The second dog had actually bit two other children just a few weeks beforehand. By the time I was done with him, not only had the dog been put down, but he was actually EBaying his stuff to pay off the damage award. His lawyer rightly advised him that the sight of a stiched up six year old wouldn't go over well in court, and we settled for $35,000. Not a massive amount nowadays, but it was enough to make the guy suffer back when this happened.

[FourScore]

29. He MUST file a police report of the incident. And he MUST sue.

That is the only way to fight back when people have aggressive dogs. My 82 year old mother was badly bitten by a neighbor's dog. He took a huge chunk out of her leg. It was horrible. She is suing. And it is not the first attack with this dog, but since the (3 known) other victims didn't file a police report, nothing will happen to the dog. Where my Mom lives, once there are 3 reports filed of dogs attacking humans, the dog is put down. My sister thinks that is cruel, but I have been bitten and it is NOT cruel.

I hope your son and your father heal swiftly. Unfortunately, they will remain fearful of all dogs from now on. I speak from experience, and it has become my mother's experience as well.

[snagglepuss]

103. Exactly. Also a police report will be indispensable if complications arise

at which point the father may want to sue.

[Carolina]

30. Some dog owners should be

horse whipped or worse.

Much as I love dogs and have always owned and treasured them, I also fear them. When I adopted a seemingly, sweet mid-size terrier mix, he turned CUJO when I got him home to my other dog. I was going to return him to the adoptive group but then decided to work with him and go to obedience class. It took work but he is under control now and has become the sweet, loving dog his cute face suggested.

I give this brief story because one of his obedience classmates was a large pit bull mix owned by 2 people who not only could not control their dog but who also did not take the classes seriously. The instructor who was truly a master at handling the assorted dogs in the class (many for aggression), warned them that without discipline, their dog WOULD be a threat to them and others. Their repsonse was to drop out!!!

I pity those who live near these people and others like them. Such animals are truly loaded weapons and their owners are not only irresponsible; their behavior is criminal considering the likely outcome between a large, vcious dog and a small child!

[JackintheGreen]

31. I have fostered many "difficult" dogs, and there is NO EXCUSE

for the stories getting posted here.

But of my foster, most were abused. A few couldn't be saved. I keep a tight rein on these animals, and you know what drives *me* crazy?

A VERY common street interaction:
"Can I pet your dog?"
"No. She's an abused foster that I'm training and can be nippy with strangers"
"Naw...dogs love me." Reaches for dog...

"You're dog snapped at me! You should have better control of her!"
"She's muzzled and I warned you explicitly."
"mumble mumble...should report you...mumble."


The only way these dogs even have a chance is if people like me TRY to socialize and train them. I despise owners like the ones described in this thread, but a lot of people are just DUMB when it comes to dogs.

[Dappleganger]

42. Sorry, if you walk an abused dog in public who is a known biter...

you should put a muzzle on it, PERIOD. No ands, ifs or buts about it. Don't put it on other people to "be careful", that is YOUR responsibility.

[JackintheGreen]

47. PLEASE read what I wrote CAREFULLY before criticizing me

I already addressed your complaint in my original response, presumably to your satisfaction.

quoting myself:

"You're dog snapped at me! You should have better control of her!"
"She's muzzled and I warned you explicitly."
"mumble mumble...should report you...mumble."

You'll note that I do muzzle aggressive fosters. It doesn't prevent them from lurching towards perceived threats (the short lead and training collar do), but it does keep them from actually biting.

Please do tell me what else I should do. I can't muzzle the hands of idiots on the street. Why would you reach for a dog that 1) is muzzled and 2) that the owner/care-taker has explicitly warned you about? Unless your solution is simply to put a bullet in the head of every dog that's ever been abused. And that is a completely legitimate opinion to have. It just isn't mine.

I will admit that my response wasn't exactly to the OP, but I did want to add that, notwithstanding the stories of IRRESPONSIBLE owners given in the thread, dog bites are not always so simple as a thoughtless and/or lying owners, who should be flogged.

[tomm2thumbs]

67. I read it and it was quite clear

I have had countless times that people insist their dog is good with dogs and insist otherwise and keep him away. I don't need another dog bitten to teach me a 2nd lesson.

You seemed to have gone out of your way to be safe and still people don't listen.

Geesh

[JackintheGreen]

69. A misunderstanding, then.

One that I took personally and was not meant so.

Yes, I do try to go out of my way, and still people do not listen. What's a responsible owner to do? Then you get the f*#kwits mentioned in the thread. Sigh.

Cheers.

[KurtNYC]

52. but..but..but they saw it on "The Dog Whisperer" !

and now they ARE the Dog Whisperer -- "no dog is too much for me..."

I have worked with abused dogs too. One was a Maltese rescued from a dog fight operation. It had been a bait dog and was absolutely traumatized by the experience. If you looked at this dog, even out of the corner of your eye it would growl. And can you guess what people did ? Yes! They stuck their faces down into its face and babytalked about why it shouldn't growl at them. It bit one face after another. And there was no stopping people ! At a party the dog nipped one baby-talker's nose so another person gets down and says "here, dogs love me...oowwww"

[itsrobert]

70. True, and 13 year old boys think they are invincible

The kid is not giving his mother the whole story. I bet the boy thought he could interact with the dog even after being warned. That's what undisciplined kids do.

[seabeyond]

73. at the point of being ugly to me is one thing. calling my child out is nasty. nt

[TBF]

90. Yes - I've had that happen as well. We don't foster, but we are on our

third rescue. This one is 15 months and we suspect wasn't socialized properly. He is a large Lab who is great with our kids but you can tell he's nervous meeting people if they come up to him (he's fine if he approaches on his terms), also better with women than men. We took him to good dog manners to start with, and have reservations for him at a K9 training camp for 3 weeks in July (we're on vacation part of that time, so this is much more productive than him sitting in a kennel).

In terms of dealing with him I usually have treats with me and start a game of throwing treats for him if he decides he needs to bark while on walks. If other dog owners approach I let him meet the dogs (he goes to doggy daycare once a week and does great there), but I always warn the owners that we're working on socializing him. Mostly they'll listen but some stick out their hand anyway. Sometimes he puts up with it, sometimes he'll bark and back away (which is fine by me). I also wait until delivery people leave, crate him, or go outside to meet them if they're delivering food. But I'm looking forward to his training experience, he's not that old yet so I'm hopeful it'll help him gain some confidence.

ETA - he has never bitten anyone as far as I know. He'll jump in the air if someone slams a door though, so I think most of this is fear-based. Still we are taking a proactive approach with extra training etc ... because I agree with most of the posters here - it is the responsibility of the dog owner to look out for their pet (and that includes training and keeping everyone as safe as possible).

[seabeyond]

92. i really admire and respect people like you and jackinthegreen. i appreciate

the hell out of what you are not only doing for the dogs, but what you do for the community, teaching, nurturing and loving these dogs.

[TBF]

94. As I just added in my edit - I feel it is the dog owner's responsibility to do so -

I bet delivery people are bitten a lot. That's not right - especially when there are tons of good training programs out there (you can even start at your local PetSmart when you adopt a pet or buy a puppy).

[snagglepuss]

104. It's irresponsible of you to walk a dog that you know has issues without a muzzle.

[HillWilliam]

122. You said THAT right!

As I said upthread, it's always so much easier to train the dog than the human. People just don't put the proper time and effort into establishing communications with their dogs.

I've got six, herding breeds or herding mixes. One, Callie, was a really tough case. She arrived starved, horribly abused, almost no top-coat and no undercoat at all; completely blown. It took two months of trust-building just to get the nasty collar she came with off of her. It took another month before I could get her rusty azz in the shower to get her skin cleaned and moisturized. It was another two years before I could take her out in public.

These days, she's extremely affectionate (unusual for a big white guard dog), loves attention, and shows off her skills. Her recall is excellent. She loves company. She loves going to town and being made a fuss over (she IS gorgeous, fully-coated with a lush, thick, white kuvasz coat and a Lassie-collie face). Two years ago, though, boyo, she. Was. A. HANDFUL.

I use all-positive training methods. Yes, it takes longer, but they come to understand that I don't just want their obedience. I want to earn their heart. Five of my furkids will do anything for me because they understand I'll do anything for them -- we're buddies and partners. Number Six is a new arrival, but she's getting with the program. She'll be okay because she's now willing.

I swore I'd never foster again because I got burned out years ago. Now I have space, a little over two acres of fenced in yard (and another six acres of woods for exploring when they're trustworthy and their recall is flawless).

There are pics of them on FB and on my blog: http://www.jwfarrell.com/

Other people's throwaways have become my beloved treasures.

[davsand]

34. Seems like there are lots of bad pet owners out there.

When I was really pregnant with my daughter I had a neighbor's dog run up into my yard and attempt to bite me. As you said in reference to your father's attack, my balance was not the same and I was not moving too quickly. I was coming home from the grocery store and I had my purse with me. As that dog was coming at my bare leg with bared teeth, I smacked hell out of it with my purse and I sent the dog rolling. It got up and came at me again! I was in my yard screaming and cussing and swinging that purse and that damn dog was not gonna back off. I finally got into the house and the dog went back to his own yard. Later, after I knew that dog was no longer running free, I went to have a chat with those neighbors.

I was very direct. I told them that if that f$#%ing dog had managed to bite me that I would have been on the phone with the police first and a lawyer second. I also explained to them that I never wanted to see that f%$#ing dog anyplace even NEAR my yard ever again or else I'd make sure it did not live to bite anybody else. "If you like that dog, keep it away from me or else you'll never see it again..." was my final comment as I waddled back to my house.

My husband was horrified. He is a lot kinder soul than I ever have been, I guess, because he thought I was too hard on that guy with that "little white dog." (The dog looked kinda like a dwarf version of a Spitz.) His view was that the dog probably got out by accident and was scared. My view was the dog was off his own turf, in MY yard, was acting in aggression, and the owners needed to deal with the issue before my child was born.

A couple months later that same dog went across the street to the local child care center. It bit one little kid and went after a couple more before the staff got there to protect the kids. Dog was impounded and the owners were served a summons. At that point, the owner was quoted in the newspaper saying they had NO idea the dog was vicious...


:banghead:

Those people did not give a shit about the dog, nor did they give a shit about anybody else. They had a dog that was out of control, they were aware of it, and they did nothing about it. This crap goes on all the time. Local laws are usually pretty weak when it comes to this kind of stuff--owners might pay a fine or maybe even have to give up the dog, but there really isn't too much in the way of penalty for harboring a dog that poses a threat to safety. If we REALLY want to see that change, I think owners need to be liable for not just a civil lawsuit, but also a HUGE fine if their dog is involved in anything even resembling an attack off their property. Dunno if it is possible, but even criminal charges might be in order in cases like that asshole neighbor of mine with his wandering Cujo...



Laura

[slackmaster]

35. Get one of these

[Maru Kitteh]

100. I wonder if that's the cat from the Dos Equis commercial?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAFJJOiys9k

@ 16 seconds.

[Poll_Blind]

36. I am so sorry this happened to your family.

Sometimes I feel that on DU animals get more sympathy than the victim they attack. I almost couldn't read the whole description of what happened to your father once I realized what you were saying. I sincerely hope he and your son make speedy recoveries and that you hold the owners of these animals fully responsible.

I think people tend to hold attitudes about a certain thing and those attitudes change very rapidly once they've actually been in that situation themselves. I knew a girl who had never been mugged in her life. She used to tell me that she could walk through the worst part of town and other people would just "sense" she was "one of them" and so leave her alone, nomatter what. I have been mugged. It doesn't work like that for crime and it doesn't work like that for animal attacks. Especially in your father's case...that's just a nightmarish position to have been in.

Anyway, I'm rambling: Please express my sympathies to both of them.

PB

[roody]

37. In my County, these dogs would be put in 10 day quarantine.

Then probably euthanized.

[City of Mills]

38. Ridiculous. There's a local dog bite epidemic lately. Even Micky Ward, subject of "The Fighter"

Got bit a few days ago, the bite got infected and there was concern he would lose a finger. On top of that, there's been at least 4-5 incidents in the past month specifically involving pit bulls. My city passed a muzzle law for pit bulls (exemptions for dogs completing a training program), and of course the owners are up in arms, crying poverty, etc. I guess they don't take their dogs to the vet, either. How much do they think it will cost them if their dog bites someone?

[adigal]

62. As always, we look to a simplistic solution

Most dog bites are by smaller dogs - they are the ones I never trust, especially with kids. And I run a dog rescue, so I have dealt with thousands of dogs in the last few years since I started. I was afraid of pitbulls until I got to know them. Generally, they are wonderful dogs, just fabulous! Calm, sweet, loving, they are NOT guard dogs, they are not aggressive. The issue is if you get a nasty one, or someone does something stupid/aggressive to one who strikes back, they have the equipment to do damage, as opposed to a little dog.

I always say, If pitbulls had the temperment of chihuahuas or Yorkies, they would be killing people every day!! And BTW, I have been bitten once since I started dog rescue, and that was by my sister-in-laws purebred $2500 Yorkie.

[Mosby]

99. "generally they are wonderful dogs"

Except when they bite or kill people. Your seriously comparing a bite from a pom or whatever to a bite from a pit? You make me want to vomit.

Bully breeds need to be banned.

[adigal]

112. I am so sorry to make you want to vomit

Cars kill 50,000 people, give or take, a year. Want to ban them?? There are a few bad apples out there, you know. Alcohol - kills about 100,000, some of them in cars. We tried that already. Did you know that bees kill people. I think we should use insecticide and kill them all. Who needs bees??

Your black and white thinking is more appropriate for a republican site. Not a liberal site, where we are thinking people, who can come up with solutions so a whole class of dogs suffers because a few bad apples are created, not even bred.

Go back to vomiting. :)

[Mosby]

128. That's not a good argument

Hate to state the obvious but cars are a necessary component of our economy (as well as bees) while companion animals are not, they are a luxury. Further we know that there are large numbers of people who will never be responsible dog owners, given that fact we should be protecting the public by banning highly territorial dogs like pits, chows, presa canarios etc.

I know there are some responsible pit bull owners but that's a tiny minority, I would encourage you to go to your neighborhood pound, I did recently when I was looking for a dog to adopt, know what I saw? A pound full of pits and Chihuahuas most of whom are probably dead now. The Humane Society estimates that 3-4 million dogs and cats have to be put down every year, why? because so many dog owners are irresponsible.

BTW - if anyone is engaging in "black and white thinking" it's you by oversimplifying the issue.

[adigal]

129. I do dog rescue - I deal with this every day

And yes, pits are killed because of irresponsible owners, not bad dogs. You are proving my point!! You shouldn't ban the breed, bad owners should be banned. Just like bad parents should be banned - but neither one will ever happen, so the dogs and kids will continue to pay the price.

[FailureToCommunicate]

39. I remember the attack like it was yesterday. Never fully trusted

'public safety' guys since then...

As a little kid of nine or ten I was attacked by a pack of large dogs. This was long before leash laws were more the norm. It was a stretch of road with few houses. I tried to fight them off as they swirled around me biting and barking and they pulled me to the ground. I heard a car coming and jumped up and yelled and waved as it neared. The driver slowed and then drove by me leaving me with the snarling pack. Here is the part I will always remember and that led me to never automatically trust a public safety official: The car was red, and clearly lettered on the door was "Fire Chief" I was stunned, then mad, furious even. Maybe the dogs sensed I was about to explode with rage and they moved on. Later when I got the bites treated my folks called the fire department but no one seemed to know anything.

Big dogs still make my hair stand up and put me on guard.


(Sorry to hear, seabeyond. Hope you pursue charges and get some justice, or at least feel that you did something)

[supernova]

40. So sorry about your father and son

seabeyond. :hug: That should never have happened to either of them. Some owners don't seem to get it (or perversely enjoy it) that dogs will treat non family members very differently than members of the household. I saw a labradoodle at the pet store yesterday who was straining at the leash. This dog was only slightly smaller than an Irish wolfhound. The owner did not have control of that animal. at all. Luckily, he seemed happy to be out and about, but I shudder to think if anything in the store would have pissed him off.

Stray, out of yard dogs really worry me. I've had a life long phobia of dogs since I can remember. Why? I'm not sure. But there is this. I'm a petite adult and was a small child. Invariably, dogs I did not know saw me as prey. I always got barked at, nipped at, snarled at. For the first 30 years of my life I swear I didn't see what people liked about dogs so much.

Since, I've become an adult, I've had a balance of positive experiences and I now see that dogs aren't the problem, it's the clueless or mean owners. Lastly, recently, I've taken to walking my neighborhood early in the morning. It's a rural neighborhood. Plenty of well-behaved dogs who stay in their enclosures or porches. But I do worry about stray dogs or dogs that escape. How do I deal with those without getting bit?

[Arkansas Granny]

41. Please appeal to your father to file a police report. If, or should I say when,

this dog attacks again, it's next victim may be injured even worse than your father. A dog that is this aggressive and out of control needs to be put down.

[Capitalocracy]

91. Yeah, this wasn't just a bite, this was an all-out attack. nt

[divvy]

43. Do you live in Montana? I was attacked by 3 dogs there.

The sherriff eventually showed up and wanted to take me to jail because I had a bat-like club and I was hunting for the dogs. I managed to fight them off and they fled with me in persuit hauling this stick.

I found out that it was illegal to kill just any dangerous dog because it might be a sheepherders dog. They can be very aggressive -- they are kept to fight off wolves and big cats. Evidently, this law is very old but it is still enforced in some parts.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snagglepuss]

45. Sue the hell out of both of them. Utter neligence since both knew the dogs are

a menace. Take lot of photos. Report each to the police. Write two report yourself having your and sone dictate events as they happened and email those to yourself, then keep a running diary as to any setbacks in healing, conversations with lawyers, police etc. and email those updates back to yourself. If any one tells you stories about either dog document those comments as well. Document, document, document.

[itsrobert]

55. Dogs are protective of their homes and owners/pack

When they are startled by someone not usually in the home, they go back to their natural instincts. Her kid probably left out some details to protect himself. After all he has to be his own parent, why not his own lawyer?

[snagglepuss]

56. The house owner is responsible for the dog. Period.

[tomm2thumbs]

64. yep, and apparently homeowners is the coverage involved

I believe that is true even if the dog gets off-property and attacks

dogs who can't be controlled by their owners can be VERY expensive

[Codeine]

65. Be his own parent?

Who the hell hangs over a 13-yr-old boy every moment? That's an age where they should have a fair degree of independence.

[itsrobert]

68. With independence, comes responsibility.

Correct?

[Maru Kitteh]

79. And the pet owner is legally responsible for the dog, period.

[KurtNYC]

72. No.

This child was an invited guest into this home. No "protection" is necessary (and btw, dogs are incapable of protecting property and owning homes). Territorial sometimes; possessive of their owners absolutely but a dog has no concept of what "protection" is. Regardless of whether you agree with that, this dog was not acting to protect anything or any person. This was aggression and it was the responsibility of dog's owners to prevent this.

Dogs are predators by instinct and pack animals by nature. There is no protection involved -- only hunting and bonding. Your own post characterizes the dog as "startled" -- not attacked, not invaded, not called upon to protect. There is no protection required after being startled.

[itsrobert]

81. Without evidence submitted by the homeowner(s)

Pardon me if I don't condemn the dog or homeowner just yet. I do know that 13 year old boys don't always tell the truth. 46 year old boys don't always tell the truth.

And I do know parents are defensive of their kids. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. yes, blame the victim

blame anyone except sweet, harmless bosco and his owner.

Right?

[hunter]

46. Sorta like cars. Some idiots shouldn't drive, some idiots shouldn't have pets.

We once had a neighbor who had a mean pit bull and a rusty oil burning muscle car he'd drive drunk.

Just looking at the guy you knew somebody was going to get hurt.

:grr:

The police finally took him off the streets for domestic violence.

[csziggy]

50. Please hug your father and son for me

I hope they both heal without problems - mentally as well as physically.

One way to pursue both of the situations - once police reports are filed (or even if they are not filed), contact the homeowners and ask for their liability insurance information, then file claims with the insurance companies. Many insurance companies will drop the policies if there are dangerous dogs on the premises, or at the first hint of a claim.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

58. Yes, file claims under premises liability - homeowner's insurance.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[humblebum]

53. The owners should be prosecuted as if they did these things themselves and

the animals need to be permanently caged or destroyed. Most communities do not allow wild animals such as lions and grizzlies and tigers and alligators to be kept as household pets, then why vicious dogs?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

54. Get a lawyer. Sue the bastards. Both families.

[itsrobert]

57. I would like to see the boy on the witness stand.

Have you been to the home before?
Did you know there was a dog there?
Were you told the dog doesn't respond well to strangers?
Did you ask if the dog was put away and was it safe to come in?
Were you thinking about getting in the pool and just barged into the home without regard to the dog or your own safety?
Does your mom let you run wild all over the neighborhood?

The kid will spill his guts.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snagglepuss]

76. You absolutely have no understanding whatsoever regarding the laws

governing dangerous dogs. Wikipedia is your friend.

[Maru Kitteh]

78. It's plausible that poster has no understanding whatsoever of a great many things.

Vast, unending, unfathomable numbers of things.

[seabeyond]

80. there are people on du that do not like me.

surprise.

they seem to have chosen this thread to diss me. meh,... fine, lol. but they are certainly right there.

i tend to argue hard on some subjects. i think they feel they are getting a bit of their own.

[itsrobert]

83. Wikipedia?

1st: We have only one person's story.
2nd: The story somehow changes to fit her facts.
3rd: No direct statements from the homeowner. Other than here-say.
4th: 13 y.o boys lie to protect themselves.
5th: Yes the owner is liable, but to what degree is dependent on the behavior of the provoker.


Last: Please excuse me for not condemning this dog to death prior to getting all the evidence.

[snagglepuss]

84. Wikipedia is a good start for people who do not have even a cursory undestanding

of a subject. No disrespect intended but clearly you are not familiar with the laws pertaining to vicious dogs. None of the points you cite mitigate the homeowner's liability.

[itsrobert]

85. Well, you would be wrong

If the person whom your dog bit was provoking the dog or acting in some other manner that contributed to the incident, the liability will be lessened by the percentage of fault in causing the injury that is attributed to the bitten party. This means that if the person who the dog bit is determined by a judge or jury to have been 50% responsible for their own injuries because they provoked the dog, the owner will only be 50% responsible, and thus only be required to pay 50% of the total damages resulting from the injury.

That mitigates the charges down doesn't it?

[snagglepuss]

86. Walking into someone's home doesn't come close to provocative behavior.

[itsrobert]

89. If that what actually happened

I not convinced without statements from all witnesses.

[Maru Kitteh]

95. What a stupidly impossible standard to set on an anonymous message board, it's almost like

you know your argument sucks so badly that you're willing to employ the logical fallacy of Demanding Impossible Perfection. http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#goalposts

[Warren DeMontague]

108. I want to see some owners of these fucking dogs rotting in prison for 10, 20 years.

If not more.

If someone needs so badly to play the game of keeping a dangerous animal to compensate for having a tiny dick, they need to be prepared to pay the piper when the shit-ledger comes due.

[elleng]

60. VERY SORRY, Seabe.

Awful stories.

My only disagreement: 72 is not VERY old, my s.o. is 72. My DAD is VERY old, 97.

Best, to all of you.



:hi:

[seabeyond]

119. i stand corrected. lol

you are absolutely right on.

[Cleita]

61. Dogs should be fenced in or on a leash. At least in

California there is a law about it, however, out in the country too many people don't pay attention to it. The fact is that even a friendly, large dog can knock over an elderly person and cause him/her damage. I don't know if your sheriff or police department will come out, but those dogs need to be impounded and checked out and perhaps euthanized if they are dangerous. Their aggression could be a medical reason that needs to be taken care of because a child could be killed the next time.

Good luck to you. You need to do something. It might cause bad blood with the owners. We had something similar happen in our neighborhood and the dog's owners tried to blame the victim saying he was at fault for the dog attacking him. It wasn't true. The dog is just a bad ass. A fight ensued with lawsuits and such, but at least they now don't let the dog run loose. You really can't sit back and do nothing.

I know that these incidents happened on the people's properties but they still need to keep their animals in control when visitors come, if they know the dog bites.

[MilesColtrane]

63. I got bit hard twice between the ages of 5 and 7 by two different dogs on two different occasions.

Both were somebody's pets.

I've been a cat person ever since.

[Brigid]

111. Don't think cats can't be agressive.

I had a large neutered male cat I adopted when he was just five weeks old. I would have preferred to leave him with his mother for a few weeks longer, but the owner wanted to get rid of them since they were eating solid food. As an adult, that cat could be a real terror when he wanted to be -- usually when something he didn't like was going on. I was just lucky he never bit anyone during his 13 years. He did tear a pair of my mother's pants once. I didn't know what to do with him (whoever heard of obedience classes for cats?). Looking back, I suppose I really should have gotten rid of him. I read not too long ago that taking a kitten away from its mother too soon can make it agressive. Too bad I didn't find that years ago.

[FLAprogressive]

66. Sue both families.

[Maru Kitteh]

75. Our incivility, selfishness and total lack of Personal Responsibility extends to our animals, kids,

any kind of extension of ourselves floating in our self-absorbed little worlds.

So sorry to hear about your son and especially your dad. :-(

[itsrobert]

82. Very true.

The child was giving independence and failed to take responsibility for his own safety.

[Maru Kitteh]

101. Dog owners are responsible for their dogs. Smart people know this. Stupid people

get taken to the cleaners, or even go to jail, and their poor dogs end up being put down because the dumb humans that are supposed to care for them are full of fail.

[SoCalDem]

87. How awful for them...and you

:hug:

Irresponsible pet "owners" are the worst.. I hope your Dad & son heal fast, and suffer no long term consequences..

Three rottweilers attacked my friend's little girls while they waited for the school bus.. Totally unprovoked. The oldest daughter (she was about 10 at the time) tried to fight off the dogs as they bit her little sister (6 at the time). The older girl had to have surgery to correct the damage to her calf muscle on one of her legs. Those dogs were literally on top of her ..all of them biting her., Luckily a man was leaving for work and saw the attack & came to their aid with a garden hose..

All three girls were hospitalized and had hundreds of stitches.. They are all grown now, but still fear dogs.

My friend beat herself up over this for years.. It was the FIRST day she let them walk alone to the bus stop..

[itsrobert]

88. "the parent didn't know kids were coming back to house"

There you go. You even admit the parent was not notified. Your kid just learned a valuable lessen. A little bruised, but he will live. But go ahead, put the dog the sleep at your request.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TBF]

96. Probably just the culmination of it happening twice in one week -

I think anyone would be upset.

I wouldn't accuse the OP of fabricating though - that's pretty rude. I don't always agree with seabeyond politically, but no reason to make that accusation.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

97. I edited to "embellished".

I just find it hard to believe someone injured that severely wouldn't have been involved in a police report. If I'm not mistaken, ER personnel would be required to make a police report. Furthermore, and this is ironic, I believe the OP would open her father up to legal trouble for NOT reporting the bite(s) if she reports the incident as a third party.

[Raine]

102. I'm sorry about your father and your son. My father did in-home appliance

repair and he was bitten so many times by dogs especially dogs that the owner claimed weren't biters. I know how you feel, I remember my father coming home bitten up, it hurt to see him like that. :-(

[Warren DeMontague]

106. My favorite is the old "My snookums wouldn't hurt anyone" crappo.

My solution stands: hold dog owners criminally liable for ANYTHING their dog does. Period. 100%.

If your dog attacks someone, that's assault. By you. If your dog kills someone, go to jail for murder.

If folks can't handle that, get a fish tank.


...I'm sorry this happened to you, seabeyond. Hope everyone recovers soon.

[flvegan]

113. Guess I'm a piece. of. shit. human. being.

I've rehabbed dozens and dozens of seriously aggressive dogs. Dogs that would make that dog look like the most laid back basset hound in the world.

I'll live with my shame I guess.

I am sorry for your son and your dad. It's a shame that people have potentially overprotective dogs yet allow folks onto their property.

[seabeyond]

114. has any of your dogs attacked someone while with you and you still kept them. nt

[flvegan]

115. Yes.

I've been bitten a time or two while they were with me. I still kept them.

[seabeyond]

116. you would put other people at risk? people that did not make the same commitment or choice you did?

[flvegan]

117. I highly recommend you actually read my first response.

[seabeyond]

118. look, flvegan, post 92. there are people that seriously take their dedication in retraining these

dogs, and i have nothing but admiration and respect for them. i am assuming along the way, that when they are telling about the work they do, one of them is to ensure that innocent people are not being mauled. i state my appreciation, not only what they do for the dogs, but what they are doing for their community

if you do not put people at risk, i hardly think i am talking about you.

[LeftyMom]

121. Damn things licked me half to death.

Evil hellbeasts.

[saras]

123. The owners of such dogs should be charge with committing the crimes the dogs do, with premeditation

The dog's behavior may not be premeditated.

But if the owner knows there is an issue, and does not solve the issue ('trying' isn't good enough, there are straightforward solutions), then the owner is, ahead of time and with foreknowledge, setting up the possibility of violence.

Basically, give the owner the same penalty as if they had done what the dog did. Simple enough, and totally fair to the victims.

[sarcasmo]

126. IMHO, both dogs should be put down. I would sue, that is why people have homeowners insurance.