I think there is a disconnect between those Democrats...

[kentuck]

...that believe this is just a normal downturn and that we are in a recovery and the jobless rate will be greatly improved by the next election, thus assuring the re-election of Barack Obama. They really see no need for any government program to help the unemployed or the needy. The small taxcuts in payroll taxes will get more spending into our economy and help our recovery. They believe the President and the Administration are on the right track and that the economy and job growth will be much better before the next election.

And there are those Democrats that believe we were and are in a much worse economy than the President or his advisers have ever believed. These Democrats do not see a private sector that is going to make a big dent in the unemployment rate. They see stagflation with the possibility of a double-dip recession and the chance that the economy could get much worse. They see a transigent Republican Party that is only going to make everything worse. They see the necessity for government involvement in a jobs program or something to put more money into the economy from the demand side.

[Pirate Smile]

1. How do you see getting anything like a jobs program passed in the current House?

Ezra Klein said on some show on MSNBC yesterday that the White House wants more Stimulus but sees no way of getting any passed through the current House of Representatives. Seems like an accurate explanation for where we stand right now.

[pscot]

2. Have you seen any suggestion from the Whitehouse

that the House should be considering a jobs program?

[kentuck]

3. That is a good question.

It is doubtful anything can get passed in this House. However, the next election is very important. It is important to deal with this issue realistically before the election, by dealing with the truth. I believe the economy is much worse than the Administration has ever admitted to themselves. They have acted as if it is just a regular economic cycle and a small stimulus and a few small payroll taxcuts will do the trick.

By the time election rolls around and if the economy is still barely maintaining, the voters will turn to that Party that promises change. The Administration is taking a huge gamble that this is just an "average" recession when all indicators say that it is long and deep and in need of some government help to get us out of it. The private sector will not get us out, contrary to what the President said and apparently believes. I think there are two parallel realities here and only one is correct.

[Horse with no Name]

4. Executive orders.

Bush did it. We hated it.
BUT, so what?
Something about being right for gooses and ganders is apropos.

Drastic measures are needed--not obstructive politics.

[elocs]

11. Republicans do what they need to do to accomplish their agenda.

They only recognize rules that help to further their goals, otherwise they feel free to bend or break them.

Republicans approach their battles with Democrats like a street fight while Democrats feel bound to honor Marquis of Queensbury rules in the same fight.

Do we really want to get them? Do we want to make Republicans feel fear? Start fighting the Chicago way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOvH-7lcjb0.

[Imajika]

12. There is only so much you can do via executive order...

Creating massive work programs or passing new stimulus are not some of things you can do.

[Johonny]

7. I agree

[notesdev]

5. There's a third camp

That is those who realize how catastrophic the situation is, and understand the cause is arrogant elitists and oligarchs trying to manage an economy beyond their comprehension, allegedly for the common good, but in reality simply to advance their own, narrow self-interest.

Yes there is a third choice other than letting fascism run wild or going down the USSR's road to collectivist ruin. That is getting the manipulations and the manipulators out of the economy and allowing individuals each making their own choices and exercising their own free will to optimize the economy for the actual needs of the people.

[Skidmore]

6. Voodoo econ & kabuki theater

with a little three ring circus on the side. AKA politics and NOONE, freaking NOONE, cares to sit down and seriously work on the issues that affect everyday people. It's much easier to cue up a Nero with a fiddle, and I'm not talking about the President either.

[OHdem10]

8. Very good post. I find it difficult to believe that all Democrats(here,

I am referring to House and Senate) do not understand we
are in an Eonomical Crisis brought on as a result of poorly
managed Globalization and Trade. The Crisis was brought to
a head by the Banks and Financial Industry. The humongous
Job Losses were not all the result of the US financial meltdown.
including the Housing Mkt Collapse. In '06, Banking Committee
chaired by Senator Shumer held a meeting in which it was
forcasted: 40 Million job dislocations as a result poorly
mangaged TRADE Policy and technological developments. These
job dislocations would hit every socieconomic group including
professionals. Bob Rubin, Form Sec Treas. Larry Sommers, Former
Sec Treas. Alan Blinder, Former Vice-Chm Federal Reserve and
a Conservative Professor from North Western all testied as
witnesses. I watched it on C=Span. For whatever reason
it was never covered on Television (Broadcast, Cable). However
I cannot believe that all members of Senate and House were
informed of the Committee Report.

Therefore, I think there is the meme that a President has
to bear good news. He can never admit or sound like Debbie
Downer. This takes a tightrope walker. If you sound too
upbeat, not credible. If too down, you are goner also.

To me this is a bit unfair. The GOP talk at least use the
word jobs but offer no real antidote. Let us pretend the GOP
wins the Presidency, the same circumstances will exist no
or very few jobs. If Deregulation and Tax Cuts were the
answer, The Bush Administration and Republicams should
have produced so many jobs we would never have had the Financial
Collapse.

I think they all know what is going on. They just have
not figured out how to spin it--so we stuck with "Don't worry
Be happy."

[mmonk]

9. It will take 5 years at least for a bearable economy without government intervention.

[OHdem10]

10. jI heard credible economists on 3 different shows say we will

limp along with high unemployment for 10 years.

[mmonk]

15. Yes. In 5 we will be half way there.

Before the collapse and the jobless rate was 4.5%, corporate profits were around $1.6 trillion. They are $1.7 trillion currently and the rate is 9.1%. The private sector is not going to help since much of Wall Street is global and could care less about the job situation here.

[notesdev]

17. and at least 25, with it

[mmonk]

18. What do you mean?

[notesdev]

19. I mean all the know-it-alls who actually don't know a damn thing

just fuck things up more with their centralized command-and-control economic policies.

There's no centralized economic policy that can be anywhere near as effective in creating and maintaining a robust and healthy economy, as can the spontaneous and organic economic activity performed by individuals in pursuit of each's own needs.

It simply can't be done, there are too many variables and too many cause-effect relationships for any one person or limited group of people to ever grapple with effectively on large scales. By messing with natural economic processes all they can do is destroy natural economic activity in the attempt to set up artificial (and by necessity, temporary) stimulus.

The proper way to get the economy back on track is to take advantage of the distributed computing power of 300 million brains each seeking the best outcome for themselves and their families.

[mmonk]

20. Well Germany just used an industrial policy and it seems to have worked.

Right now, all we have in the U.S. is unfettered chaos.

[bvar22]

13. I think they ALL know,

but some believe there is still one more opportunity for another giant Smash & Grab before the whole thing falls apart.

[JoePhilly]

14. Your OP creates a false dicotomy.

You claim there are 2 groups ...

1) "They really see no need for any government program to help the unemployed or the needy."

2) "They see the necessity for government involvement in a jobs program or something to put more money into the economy from the demand side."

Your choices, frankly, are bullshit.

Parts of both are true.

We ARE in a recovery, albeit very fragile. If we weren't in a recovery, the GDP would still be negative and the unemployment rate would still be falling past the high of 10.1%.

Last June, when the DOW was at 9800, and unemployment was at 9.7%, THOSE numbers were used in many places, including DU, to predict the imminent "double-dip". Are those numbers worse or better now?

You are correct that the GOP has been obstructionist since day one. And those who see the fragile recovery know that. That's WHY the recovery is fragile in the first place. Not sure why that seems to confuse some.

And, those who see the fragile recovery AGREE that the government should be doing more ... but what we can't see is a way to pass actual legislation ... and "bully-pulpit" is NOT the answer. The answer is voting for more and more dems, and better dems when we can.

Or, we can circle the wagons, and rather then defend ourselves from the GOP attacks, we could turn our fire inward, and shoot at each other.

[kentuck]

16. "Your choices, frankly, are bullshit."

Well, thank you for your kind comments.

I think you may be confusing the growth on Wall Street with the growth on Main Street. Yes, we have created some jobs. However, the unemployment rate does not correctly reflect the true unemployment. There are many that are no longer on unemployment and many others that are no longer looking for jobs or are in the numbers at all. I think it is safe to say that the unemployment rate is higher than 9.1%.

You say, "The answer is voting for more and more dems, and better dems when we can." And just how do you plan on doing that? With the bully pulpit? Or with jobs? Or perhaps another way?

Some people have a difficult time handling the truth. Just because we might disagree does not mean we are "shooting at each other"?