American DU veterans,how did you feel about the Supreme Court's decison re: Westboro Baptist Church?

[Forkboy]

My father, rightfully so, hates the WBC. He also, not rightfully so (imo) thinks they aren't worthy of free speech protection because they are "corrosive" to the morale of the soldiers and vets. I think that the high rate of suicide among veterans, the lack of proper mental health care for PTSD victims, and the fact that 1/4 of the homeless in America are vets might be more corrosive to the morale than a small group of whackadoodles, no matter how offensive they are. However, I don't want to speak for you men and women, and would love your feedback on this issue.

I should add that my father is an Air Force vet that served in Italy in the late 60's as an intel guy listening for Russian signals (basically, if the Russians had launched the nukes he would have been among the first to know about it). He describes his time there as boring, and spent most of it "drinking and playing pinochle". :)

So, did you agree with the Supreme Court decision, which my father said amounted to treason?

[canetoad]

1. I think you Americans

carry on about your right to free speech to the detriment of a civil and sensible society.

You have hate crime laws but no penalties for those who incite the hate and violence. How about putting the horse in front of the cart for once and admitting that shutting this shit down does not result in a repressed society. Think Europe, Canada, Aust, NZ, Latin America and so on.....

[Forkboy]

2. I appreciate your 2 cents on this, but am hoping to hear from American vets.

No snark intended by that, honestly.

[canetoad]

3. Then you should have said so

in your post and saved me the two or three minutes it took to type my reply. BAD FORKBOY :hi:

[Forkboy]

4. LOL...you got me there.

I will clarify my thread title. :)

[ZombieHorde]

5. Reducing free speech will not make America more civil or sensible. nt

[canetoad]

6. There ya go

it's this blind 'Free Speech' thing. I bet 95% of Americans have never considered the responsibilities that go with unfettered free speech.

Nope, scold bridles for most of you. That's what you need.

[Forkboy]

8. "95% of Americans have never considered the responsibilities that go with unfettered free speech"

That's probably correct. Doesn't mean we should limit it. That just gives the responsibility of free speech to the government to decide what's allowed and what isn't. No offense, but I don't think we're going to have a Democrat in office for the rest of this country's history, and I don't know about you, but giving that kind of power to the likes of Cheney or Bush or Palin is rather scary to me.

[canetoad]

9. Back in the old days

before all this PC shit, we used to have free speech in Australia. We could say Bum and bloody and shit. Now we have these newfangled laws that stop religious nutters from spreading their hate far and wide. I can still say bum, bloody, buggery shit. I just can't say you bum, you bloody black/yellow/brown bloody shit.

Now that little twist in the law has in no way impacted the quality of my life simply because I wouldn't dream of using those descriptors at all. Very few Australians would but over the past 10 or 12 years, encouraged and bolstered by saturation point american media, the extreme right wing has become evident in our country.

The First Amemndment was a bit of founding-father-macho. It needs to be looked at by the SC in light of the modern world, technology, religion and mental health.

Other countries thrive, embrace democracy and freedom and legislate against hate speech without becoming a nation of subservient slugs. Why can't America consider this?

[William769]

24. We he have free speech for good reason.

I would never trust anyone who would stifle free speech. Once you sart down that slippery slope there is no telling where it will end up (even under the best of intentions).

"The First Amemndment was a bit of founding-father-macho." The First amendment is part of our bill of rights to protect us from the Government, and after the Bush regime I thank the lucky stars for the founding father macho.

[ZombieHorde]

27. Some of the media I enjoy is banned in Australia.

I am glad you enjoy your restrictions, but they are not for me.

[MrDiaz]

11. Yea, that's right

If you dont like the rights of some, just limit those rights for all. Great idea.

[madokie]

12. I think I go with canetoad on this

I'm Vietnam vet 15 months in country. I think the likes of limbaugh, beck and the other hate spewers should be shut down due to the content of what they say. But thats just me.

[Forkboy]

13. Thank you for replying.

I disagree strongly, but appreciate your input.

[madokie]

15. But we can still be friends

We can and do agree on other things, ideas I'm sure. :hi:
At one point in time we didn't have the like of rush or beck or hannity or laura and during that time we had a more representative government because I feel we didn't have the divisiveness that we have now due to those clowns. No disrespect intended for clowns ok.

[Forkboy]

16. Of course.

I have no hard feelings towards anyone who disagrees with me on this. I asked looking for all answers, not just the one I wanted to hear. :)

[canetoad]

14. I think what gets to me most

is watching, being witness to, a profound breakdown in general decency in my lifetime (c. 57 yrs). We're living through HUGH societal changes and no-one, no country or state can cling to the entrenched values of the past any more. Never before in the history of humanity, did we need to completely re-examine our tenets, ideals, laws and principles.

When I see this zombie-like (*a big call out to ZombieHorde :hi:) clinging to jingoistic sayings like 'death or liberty' or 'you can prise my free speech outta my cold.......' it tells me these people have never sat down and closely contemplated what it means.

[Forkboy]

17. I don't think your last statement is fair at all.

I think most have seriously contemplated it. I know I have, repeatedly for over 30 years. And in fact, your comment might be reversed on those who want to eliminate the rights of many because of the actions of a few.

[kick-ass-bob]

28. I contemplate it every day.

How do you draw a line? Remember, this is a line about criticizing the government.

How do you know if you are 'right' if you never hear what's 'wrong'? People have to separate their own wheat from the chaff, not be told by a government which is which.

Edit: I'm not a vet.

[snooper2]

32. Along with Maddow, Leslie Blitzer, Howard Fineman

[snooper2]

31. Nah, we don't like comedians getting arrested

and aren't real fond of sedition laws as well :)

[Ferret Annica]

7. I am a vet and I support the right of the Phelpies to show how nasty they are.

Free speech works because people have to deal with the consiquences of their actions.

I also find the arrests of those doing free speech by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial to have had their First Amendment rights violated.

I don't think Tommy Jefferson would begrudge people dancing at his shrine.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w-whitehead/one-week-in-the-life-of-a_b_868721.html

[Scuba]

10. Another Vet here stands for free speech...

...no matter how repulsive. It's up to the rest of us to expose the hate and lies.

Inciting to violence is a tricky equation. Do people like Sean Hannity have a hand in the deaths of people like Dr. George Tiller? Perhaps.

But where is the outrage at the "inciters"? That responsibility too often goes unfilled.


Scuba, SSGT, USAF 1970 - 1976


(edited to correct typo)

[deacon_sephiroth]

18. You want me, you got me

Been a LONG time since I posted on here, but not a day goes by I don't visit and read. Since your OP is a special request though I'll gladly oblige. I am CURRENTLY serving in Europe, in the Air Force, and have been in for about 11 years. To say that I don't always agree with our policies, both foreign and domestic, on a personal level would be a phenomenal understatement, in fact, I very rarely do. However I'm with the Supreme Court on this one.

There are moments when free speech has seemed like a double edged sword. I remember when I first heard about the WB nonsense. The things they were doing were grotesque and made me basically lose faith in humanity. But the BEST things I've ever read are some of the responses to their actions, the way people get together and push back, creating the rings of angels etc. I was virtually moved to tears. I remember thinking: "YES, yeeessss, that's how you handle it. YES they have the same rights to express themselves, yes they choose to abuse it in obscene hateful ways but there are good people that will use their rights to protect the people caught in that disdainful crossfire. In a way, people like WB just give good people an opportunity, a chance to stand up and be a force for good."

I try not to hate WB, just pity them, and I NEVER wished for their rights to be taken away.

[Forkboy]

21. I'm glad you joined in the conversation.

And if this post is any indication, I hope you join in on other discussions as well. :)

[Marengo]

19. I am a Marine Corps veteran and agree with SCOTUS decision N/T

[hobbit709]

20. Free speech is free speech, no matter what they say.

But I bet if someone picketed WBC, you could hear them howling about it.

[Maine_Nurse]

22. Hmm, vet and psychiatric nurse here...

Overall I do have to side with free speech. That being said, I also understand that words can harm and even kill. On any given day, I could pick out a dozen patients (I work in a locked down facility) that, with a sentence or two, anyone could convince to kill themselves or someone else. There are consequences to free speech. Now during a time of intense grief, I could see some WBC words and actions as having the effect of psychological torture on the families of the fallen. I could see how the fictitious "reasonable and prudent person" would be severely distressed and "not of sound mind" when the WBC is cheering the combat death of their son/brother/grandson/etc. If that person, or persons acting on their behalf, decided to take measures to silence the WBC, well so be it. The old concept of "fighting words" does have its place in my world. In the end, I don't think the government has the right to prohibit speech, but the speakers should also not have legal recourse for events that occur as a direct consequence of their actions, ie. no suing grandma for shoving a picket sign up their ass sideways.

[Forkboy]

23. "no suing grandma for shoving a picket sign up their ass sideways."

I didn't know you knew my grandmother! :)

I do agree that words can hurt (and I think we've all had it happen to us in one form or another in our lives), and I wish there was a way to avoid that without damaging the rights of the many over the actions of a few, but I just don't see how that can be done. What i like is every time the clowns show up somewhere there's bigger counter-protests (same with neo-nazis). For every WBC member spewing their hate, there's a dozen others against them. That's the beauty and vibrancy of free speech in action.

Thanks for your post, and the work you do.

[Cid_B]

25. I agree with the decision...

I don't like the idea that the Phelps are owed money by the father.

Free Speech is just that and I disagree with the idea of "hate speech" as well.

[pintobean]

26. I agree with the decision, as well.

What's great about this country is how we handle the rights of the stupid. Most of us realize that the 1st amendment applies to WBC as equally as it applies to us. Counter-protesters always outnumber them, and always make them look foolish.

I was talking to my daughter about WBC yesterday, and we agreed that they are actually helping the GLBT community by unifying opposition to them. Everybody hates the WBC, even fundies. Many of the fundies we know have softened their anti-gay positions because they see the absolute hatred in the WBC and don't want to be associated with it.

USN '79 - '85

[sammytko]

29. AF vet also - I agree with their decison - n/t

[Love Bug]

30. We swore to defend the Constitution

I agree with the SCOTUS decision. I understand your father's concerns but agree with you regarding the true cause of bad morale.