Libya: 4,067 Civilian Casualties of NATO Bombing, 718 killed. NATO denies killing "large numbers"

[Distant Observer]

Withing a few months the Allies have created more bloodshed, death and mayhem that the Gaddafi dictatorship accomplished in 40 years.

But, of course, the war propagandists will blame the Libya Gov for all the destruction by the rebels and their Big Power allies.



http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/05/31/idINIndia-57407220110531

(Reuters) - NATO's bombing campaign has killed 718 Libyan civilians, government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said on Tuesday.

He said 4,067 civilians had been wounded, 433 of them seriously. The figures were current to May 26.

NATO has denied killing large numbers of civilians, and foreign reporters in Tripoli have not been shown evidence of large numbers of civilian casualties.

[gratuitous]

1. We were left with no choice

The only thing the U.S. and its NATO allies understand is violence and death. You can hardly blame them for these casualties. It's obviously all Gaddafi's fault because he knew or should have known that random bombing of population clusters was sure to follow once he'd earned the negative attention of Western governments. So he's, like, a terrorist for making us bomb his people.

[Starry Messenger]

20. Ouch. n/t

[LanternWaste]

2. Gaddafi had fewer than 4,000 victims? Color me surprised.

"Withing a few months the Allies have created more bloodshed, death and mayhem that the Gaddafi dictatorship accomplished in 40 years...."

Gaddafi had fewer than 4,000 victims? Color me surprised. (Unless of course you simplify need the melodrama to validate some implied point...)

I read as listed a minimum average of 15000 non-criminal victims since 1995 alone, and between the televised executions on political enemies, his statement that HIV is a "peaceful virus", Gaddafi appears to have done quite a splendid job on his own without the need for "war propagandists" to place the blame where it belongs.


(Source: Tony Clayton, Warfare in Africa Since 1950 & George Simons, Libya and the West)

[Distant Observer]

3. Could you make an explicit citation. Or are you refering to jailed criminals in Libya.

If so compare to jailed criminals in the USA -- of course that ratio would be multiples of that in Libya and most other countries in the world.

Find here data compiled from databases of independent international organizations regarding
political repression in Libya:


http://sijill.tripod.com/prison/

I does not look anything like your propagandist remark suggests.

[LanternWaste]

4. Except those in Libyan jail that were executed were not criminals.

Except those in Libyan jail that were executed were not criminals not did they receive a trial-- they were political opponents.

However, if the fallacious comparison allow you to feel better, by all means, continue...

[Distant Observer]

5. I gave you the citation for International data on repression in Libya

I don't remember any rights organization reporting more repression in Libya than in most of the authoritarian regimes in the region supported by the Western powers. Note Libya was not even listed by Human Rights watch as a country using torture, while many US allies were on that list:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933878.html

According to Human Rights Watch (www.hrw.org ), the use of torture was documented in the following countries in 2004 and 2005: China, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Malaysia, Morocco, Nepal, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, Syria, Turkey, Uganda, and Uzbekistan.

[LanternWaste]

9. Gadhaffi indeed is responsible for more deaths than NATO

I gave the source-- indicating that Gadhaffi indeed is responsible for more deaths than NATO. While that may or may not change in the future, in the here and now, it simply illustrates your statement to be false.

And what you may or may not remember is hardly Germain as it's little more than anecdotale evidence at best.

[Distant Observer]

16. You still refuse specifics so we can know what is meant - Libya, Africa, world terrorism?

[PurityOfEssence]

7. If you mean Abu Salim, then they were assassins and Islamist insurgents

They went on a rampage in Cyrenaica (where the current insurgents have their power base) in 1995 and 1996, killing uniformed police and military personnel. The LIFG stated that after following Islam, their greatest duty was to kill Qaddafi. They were bent on establishing a theocracy, and mounted an assassination attempt on Qaddafi at the time. He had them rounded up wholesale, but didn't have adequate room in the prison--something that real tyrants never seem to have a lack of--and they rioted, taking hostages. At least one guard died while being held hostage.

The rest is the subject of conflicting stories, but it looks like about 1200 of them were killed.

Depicting them as political prisoners akin to coffee-house pamphleteers is a tad inaccurate.

[LanternWaste]

10. Clayton was referring to Libyan individuals attempting to create new political parties in Libya

Clayton was referring to Libyan individuals attempting to create new political parties in Libya (a serious no-no under Gadhaffi). It's a very good and informative read.

[Distant Observer]

13. Please cite specifics. USA, Russia, China, Saudi All have security services and prisoners

[Distant Observer]

17. Thank you Purity for introducing a few facts into the discussion

[joshcryer]

18. They munitied because they were starving to death.

Whatever their crimes were are up for debate, as their surviving parents claim that many of them were innocent. The fact that you'd believe the regime over the parents of these people is telling. If you want to play the moral relativism game, don't forget that Stalin's Russia killed more people in a day than the Czar's did in a week, if you truly want to pull out theocratic bullshit as some sort of relevant statement, and it's not even clear if it even remotely applies.

I personally would prefer a secular democracy with enumerated rights above either, of course.

[Distant Observer]

8. The profuse use of bogus propaganda by war supporter is so depressing

[LanternWaste]

11. Your implication is incorrect. I do not support war.

Your implication is incorrect. I do not support war. But if that allows you to feel better validated about making a false statement in the OP, by all means... :shrug:

[Distant Observer]

12. Apologies. Then my comment is not directed at you. Simply presenting the facts

[malaise]

6. Oh the humanity of it all!

The West intends to control that oil - nothing else matters.
:puke:

[GSLevel9]

14. did the EU wrap up those OIL deals with the rebels, yet? nt

[Distant Observer]

15. Will take a while. The Southern Europe energy plan spans all of N. Africa

and includes Oil, Gas, Vast Desert Solar-Thermal. It will take a while to ink all the deals, but Libyan real-estate in the lynchpin. Once that is settled we will put the region under "disciplined" management.

[CJvR]

19. LOL!

He must be related to Bagdad Bob or whatever his nickname was. Like Gaddafi could have resisted showing off 700+ killed civilians, killed by someone other than himself that is.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluestate10]

22. Do I believe Qaddafi and his hench people, or do I believe NATO?

Is that a question?

[JackRiddler]

24. True. For a record of lying, nothing compares to the Western imperialist powers.

[Yosarian71]

23. Quoting Gadhafi's propoganda and presenting it as fact

is an endorsement of the regime. As we post on this board, Libyans are being murdered, starving in prisons for expressing their personal beliefs, and women are being gangraped by government order. As awful as war is, it would be more immoral to do nothing and let this sociopath keep an entire nation in slavery when all they want is the chance to fight for their freedom.

It is ironic that you post something like this the day after Memorial Day. Many Americans, and other nationals, have sacrificed their lives so that we can have the freedoms we have today. The Libyans want those same rights, and they are willing to do the sacrificing. They just need a little technology.

[Distant Observer]

25. Yeh. Iraq was full of WMD and no "large numbers" killed. Everything is peachy

And we just went to the UM to get a No Fly Zone to prevent Gaddafi bombing those poor defenseless unarmed civilians.

[On the Road]

26. "Libya: 4,067 Civilian Casualties of NATO Bombing"

You believe this from the Libyan government and are calling the rebels "propagandists"?