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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-11 10:59 PM
Original message
Teacher are escorted out by security or police after being fired. Not allowed to talk to friends.
She was only allowed to get her purse, then escorted out of the building by security. She had working so hard on a remediation plan, but her principal would not accept it though she sweated over it and lost weight. A judge later found the principal's claims were completely baseless.

Sabrina, a teacher, tells the story at her blog. We have to rely on bloggers, you know...as the media will never cover such as this.

From Sabrina's Failing Schools blog:

Criminalizing Teachers

At the time, one of my closest friends in the building (and, just two years prior, the schools Mile High Teacher of the Year) was nearing the end of an incredibly stressful remediation plan. (For folks who dont know, a remediation plan is one of the necessary steps to be taken before a non-probationary teacher can be terminated.) Despite the fact that we believed the plan was unjustified, and despite the fact that the plan required her to do an absurd amount of extra work and documentation, my friend did every last thing asked of her. She didnt miss a single day of work, even though the job had gotten so tough on her and her health that she started losing weight.

Still, at the end of the process, our principal looked at all of her evidence and decided that she had failed. After that meeting, our Human Resources representative accompanied her back to her classroom to get her purse, where I and a few other colleagues were waiting for her in case she needed our support. As they arrived, Ms. HR informed us that she was not allowed to talk to us, and we were not allowed to talk to her. A security officer joined them, and then my friend was escorted out of the building as though shed been accused of a crime.


(A judge later found the principals claims of her poor performance in the classroom completely baseless. His 40+ page decision explained in detail how virtually all of the evidence collected against her was either laughably flimsy, or supported her contention that she was, in fact, a very good teacher.)

I was disgusted by the display. Even if there had been merit in the attempted dismissal, she hadnt been accused of breaking the law. She hadnt behaved in a threatening or hostile manner. In truth, there was no evidence to suggest shed done anything wrong. So why call security? What was the point of treating this woman who had exclusively devoted over two decades of her life to teaching needy kids like a suspect? What kind of organization would humiliate people like this, in front of their peers and community, for no good reason? I wrote my resignation letter as soon as I got home.


Sabrina links to another such incident where teachers were escorted out of the building by police in DC. It makes no sense either.

Students Take to the Streets Against DCPS RIF (Reduction in Force)

This post from 2009 is formated badly for cut and paste, but I will give a paragraph or two a try.

Tempers flared among D.C. Public Schools (DCPS) students last week when principals handed nearly 400 staff members, including 229 teachers, pink slips in the most drastic reduction in force (RIF) since December 2003. Students at McKinley Tech Senior High School in Northeast left their classrooms in droves to watch their favorite teachers and guidance counselors being escorted out of the building by Metropolitan Police Department (MPD) Officers.

..."Dana Vaughn, a mother and aunt of students who attend McKinley, took off from work to come and support her daughter Jessica, a senior at McKinley.

"I'm very upset about how they were fired. They were fired in the middle of their classes and that's what sent these kids into an outrage" said Vaughn who works as a beautician. This is causing mental distress for them, they have to study and work and then they take their teachers out. My child is a senior; she doesn't have a math teacher, or an English teacher. I'm not sure until I come back to check to see what other teachers are gone and who has replaced them," Vaughn, 48, said.


There is more, but it is difficult to interpret with all the weird formatting errors.

Here is more on some of the humiliating terminations, including videos. From NBC Washington:

After Teachers Fired, Students Fire Back

WASHINGTON -- Boisterous students protested outside McKinley Tech High School in northeast Washington Monday in response to a wave of D.C. Public Schools teacher layoffs.

Last week, more than 200 teachers were told their jobs had been eliminated, then escorted out of school buildings by police. The cuts are necessary due to declining enrollment and a $44 million budget deficit, school officials said.

"He (a police officer) didn't even allow me to get my lunch," said Sheila Gill, who has worked in D.C. Public Schools for 32 years and says her record is spotless. "He didn't allow me to get my personal items. He escorted me out of the building and told me I had to get off the parking lot immediately."

...."Today I found out from one of my very good friends that D.C. Public Schools is still hiring," she said. "She just finished the fingerprinting process, so that she could be hired."

"This whole situation has been highly illegal," McKinley senior Ikechukwu Umez-Eronini told NBC4. "The chancellor has been given power that the council members did not have the right to give her. This reduction of force was given without due process of law by any of the citizens here."


They are still hiring....they are hiring TFA and New York Teaching Fellows while laying off teachers with experience who loved their jobs.

Speaking of NYC layoffs

Even as the threat of thousands of teacher layoffs looms, the city is preparing to hire 500 new ones for next fall, officials said.

Critics wonder why the city has accepted the new recruits 400 from New York City Teaching Fellows and 100 from Teach for America - to work in shortage areas like special education instead of retraining teachers on the payroll.

Its mind-boggling that theyre hiring when I may lose my job, said Marquis Harrison, 25, who started in the city schools with Teach for America nearly three years ago.


Still hiring. Firing teachers, escorting them with police or security guards off the campus. Yet they are still hiring new teachers. That must feel like a slap in the face, and it must break the hearts of those witnessing these fiascos.


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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-11 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. The walk of shame is typical of what happens when a white collar employee
is laid off or fired for any reason.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-11 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I've been laid off three times
and each time it was unexpected.

1) Last minute meeting with the supervisor
2) Laid off
3) Made to clean out my computer under supervision.
4) Escorted from the building, leaving my keys behind.

No, it has nothing to do with not being a talented professional.

And yes, this was Corporate America.

May they rot in hell.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-11 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. You got to clean out your computer? Lucky dog!
Edited on Mon May-30-11 11:10 PM by hedgehog
- Just in case - :sarcasm:
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-11 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Hee, and I got to turn in my keys and badge too
just like a real wild west sheriff resigning.

:sarcasm:
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
44. Thanks
I always appreciate humor, even if in a tough situation. Thank you. At least it might help begin some healing.
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DesertDiamond Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
49. They are creating their own hell right now, and it's not a maybe, they will suffer.
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vanbean Donating Member (957 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
147. It is also called "being walked Spanish". A reference to Spanish pirates walking the plank.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #147
160. That's a new one
Never heard that before. :D thanks for the addition.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
173. Yep, the perp walk. Don't forget...
Edited on Thu Jun-02-11 12:18 AM by ClarkUSA
5) They change the security code for the office front door that evening.

Had almost the exact sequence of events happen to a friend of mine who was totally blindsided by his cold-blooded boss and ended up unemployed for 2.5 years until last December. He was in senior management and reported to the CEO. It took him about ten minutes to clear out and the CEO watched him pack up everything.

The best news? My friend got word this week that his boss the CEO recently got shitcanned in the same manner by the BoD. :woohoo:
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RobinA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. I Got Lucky
When I was laid off from Big Corp I got the surprise meeting the day I returned from a week vacation. This was a Wednesday, I had two days to vacate. Having been with this company for 12 years, during which there were constant layoffs, I had my computer files pretty much in a condition where I could walk out without touching the computer. Normally this company did this escort to the door without touching anything and I was ready for it. My layoff was a surprise to most people and those last two days were the best two days I ever spent a Big Corp. Flowers, balloons, taken out to lunch. I had a lot of stuff accumulated, which my secretary helped me remove. I did nothing vengeful, it's not my style and because I felt sorry for the poor saps who were left. Still do, actually, as many are still there, it's the same obnoxious place it always was, if not worse, and I have moved on. I know very well that I was extremely lucky compared to most people who get hit with this. The respect shown me was not the norm.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
96. Great description........"Walk of Shame"....
Perfect way to describe it.

I have taken that walk myself. I'm sure it must be done to instill fear and control over the remaining proles. My heart goes out to that teacher... no way for any professional to be treated.
--------

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
109. Yes, you speak the truth
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-11 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is so demoralizing - I don't see how teachers can continue
To work with this kind of thing happening around them.

One thing that bothers me - "She was only allowed to get her purse" - I have never know a single teacher that did not have lots of personal material in their classroom to supplement the little material supplied by the school district. Every teacher I have ever known has taken in their own items, extra supplies, all sorts of materials depending on their subject. I hope this teacher was able to get her privately owned things back.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-11 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. When I retired it took two of us several trips to get it all.
Plants, materials, pictures, so on.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-11 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Exactly - In the first two months my niece was teaching
We gave her three or four file boxes of materials, two easels, a large roll of paper and more. She was also getting donations from other family members and parents were raising funds for materials for her classes. She is an art teacher in the Florida Panhandle and the school was so thrilled to have someone teaching art in the small community, everyone in the town worked to make sure she had materials - the school district gave her $300 for materials for ALL her classes put together. She does programs for all grades - maybe 500 students overall as well as teach concentrated classes for some grades - the only art teacher in the school. $300 was less than $1 per student.

If she got laid off, it would take a truck to take everything just the family has donated to her. And we would insist that she get it all out of the school - we donated it to HER for HER use, not to the school, though it was for the benefit of the students. We know if they laid her off, the chances of another art teacher in there any time soon would be dismal.

When she started, they told her they had all kinds of supplies from the previous art teacher. Turns out that teacher had been laid off ten years or more earlier. All the paints were dried up, bugs had gotten into the paper, and almost none of the supplies were usable. But since the school district still had that stuff listed in inventory, she was not allowed to spend money to replace it.

When my sister retired as a school counselor she had to ferry boxes home for weeks before her last day, but then she was there for thirty years.
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PlightGeist Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
164. Excellent point
Good point, even at the community college level, teachers often go so far as to bring in A/V equipment to better their students' learning experience.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-11 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. Thank you Arne Duncan. This kind of thing is all YOUR fault.
This is what "School reform" means...crushing people for the sake of crushing people. And this shit can't improve any kid's education.

A fear-based workplace is a workplace where nothing can be achieved.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. "a fear-based workplace"
That is what is happening. It's a punitive atmosphere for both teachers and students.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-11 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
195. we shouldn't let his boss...
off the hook
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
10. locusts. and i do mean you too, barack & arne.
Edited on Tue May-31-11 12:18 AM by Hannah Bell
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. So the classrooms are left unattended?
Some parents should sue.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
30. Sounds that way. Teachers are usually laid off at semester or year's end.
Not during class when the students are there.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
12. Oops, make that subject line "Teachers are".....not proofreading carefully.
Edited on Tue May-31-11 01:18 AM by madfloridian
I just noticed it. Also first line..."she had been working hard"

Just plain carelessness.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. I'm tired of all this fascist shit.
I'm moving to Canada to live with my brother. It sounds like Heaven up there the way he describes it.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
79. hmm...
May I come, too? I promise I can be self-sufficient within a month.
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
14. It's the Republican war on intelligence.
Because if Democrats were in charge, we'd be debating on the amount of *increase* in educational funding.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Democrats are in charge!
Was that meant to be snark? I'm not sure ~
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Kurmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
72. Missed the outcome of the 2010 elections, eh Sabrina? n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. We still control 2 branches. These policies were set in 2009 early on...
when we controlled all 3 branches. The Obama admin is carrying on Bush's plans...taking them to fruition.

Sabrina is right.
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #76
82. You're talking numbers. Still looks to me like the republicans
still have their way. Remember all that great legislation from 2008 to 2010 from the House that went to die in Congress? By number, Democrats were comfortably in the majority. But even up to today, I'm still seeing so much more republican legislation coming through that it's hard to recognize Democratic policies being implemented. Even the better achievements by the Democrats have been highly crippled - such as health care reform and the economic stimulus.

So no, being in charge has more than numbers behind it.
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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #76
129. Yes, Sabrina is right...
Sadly so.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #72
97. No, Dems are still in charge of the WH and the Senate.
If Repubs ever get that much control, we KNOW they will have no problem getting their agenda passed. Why is it that no matter how much power they have, Dems always have excuses as to why they cannot get things done?

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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-11 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #97
196. because they are in on it too...
they just say different in front of cameras.
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
84. I could only wish for such a thing!
Majorities? Yes. In charge? Hardly. At best we are a brake on the worst of the worst republican policies.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
16. I tell this to my co workers all the time
DON'T WASTE TIME DOING GREAT WORK! Do OK work and then enjoy your free time because we are NO LONGER REWARDED FOR GOOD TEACHING! This teacher won a mile high award for being great and was fired 2 years later for being a "bad teacher"? no, she was fired so that the school could hire a cheaper, less qualified teacher. Fellow teachers, do not stress, waste your time, or fret about having good lesson plans, just do the bullshit that the state says, add in your own left wing interpretation to everything (they are gonna fire us anyways) and do your best to make sure you do as little work as possible to get your money. Yeah i am a gen x "slacker" but why work hard if hard work, good quality work, is met with being fired because with our experience comes pay raises? this goes for any job in the world. I want a bonus for doing shit work like the executives get, but i know that good work or bad work i will be unemployable by 50 because i will have too high of "salary expectations" with 25 years experience.
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somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Yep. There are countless employees of the month and employees of the year
among the ranks of the unemployed.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. I'm another one who worked myself ragged teaching on the college level,
got no reward during that time except requests/orders to add more "service" (committee busywork) tasks, and was denied tenure at the end.

I enjoyed many of my students and even the challenge of writing many of my own materials and got good reviews from the non-slackers, even assurances that I was a shoe-in for tenure, but in the end, I felt like a chump.

At least they haven't started escorting college teachers out of the building yet. Thanks to the AAUP (a de facto union), colleges still have to give a year's notice of non-renewal to tenure-track instructors. (This is why they're hiring more adjuncts.)
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. Not only what you said about why work hard, but even if you don't get let go, why

work hard if the employer doesn't do jack for you? I mean, no raises, no benes, no nothing.

"but why work hard if hard work, good quality work, is met with being fired because with our experience comes pay raises? this goes for any job in the world."
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
80. Please
reconsider your stance, particularly with regards to our children. I have had to be subversive in my teaching methods, just so I can advocate for our children. One instance that sticks in my memory is when I taught a group of ninth graders the real meaning of their "magic box" and how it helps with factoring trinomials. An assistant principal found out and chided me, because "their brains were not developed enough to be learning how to factor trinomials"! The students were, OF COURSE, thrilled to learn the reasons why they had to do 'magic boxes' and got busy writing the resulting trinomials. They understood the process almost immediately.

I know it's hard in the face of this corporatist-driven adversity, but our children are the ones who are getting the shortest shrift.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #80
131. i try to give the kids a good quality of work
but i am far less likely to do extras, i was always a "b" student and i teach like that, i dont stress to have excellent classes, good ones work for me, and i did the debate team and prepped the kids for a model united nations conference and all for nothing, because i had disclipine problems in 3 ESL classes i taught to 7th graders the boss overlooked the rave reviews given by the parents of the 3 groups of high school history in english i taught. next time i will still do good work for my students but not extra shit for the boss like covering for a teacher in a disclipline that is not what i was trained for, staying late to help with this or that, extra meetings,

at a catholic school i managed to use a song, holy wars, by megadeth, did a whole unit on rastafarianism linked to the end of slavery and the end of colonization (marcus garvey etc.) that i introed by showing bob marley playing at the independence festival in zimbabwe, and another song about smoking with big leaves then the message "rasta is far far more than about smoking, it is about revolution"

like i said i do my best to give the kids an ultra left hippie slant of history, but i tell them that i teach like that so it is not brainwashing by the way, but that is fun to me and not like working at all.

teaching esl to "help the boss out" when i am trained to theach sociology and history, that was work... i wont do that shit again, i did that whole job for 20 thousand us dollars take home for the year too.... and i have an MA and teaching certificaiton in the usa, which counts to teach in international schools or sections over here.....
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
106. Teaching, it isn't about pay, or unemployment, you do your best because of your students,
Otherwise, why are you there?
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #106
132. see my new message above
teaching history with a left wing, green hippie slant is fun for me, i tell the kids that that is who i am and how i see history and that i accept diverging opinions but that in my class i teach like that. it is doing "extras" for the boss, the principal, that i am against, not for the kids. if management had respect for the teachers this would not be the case.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
17. K&R
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babydollhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
19. my neice is a TFA 24 year old replacement in DC
THIS IS AWFUL!!!
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Snoutport Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #19
31. Well, she'll last, on average, 3 years and during that time will be
on a plan of assistance almost the entire time. Then she'll quit. In the meantime several years worth of kids get a below par education and the real teachers who were union will be gone from the scene working at walmart trying to pay their student loans.

I HAVE to have a masters degree for my teaching job. The TFA teacher gets the same job and pay for five weeks of training!
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
21. It's the corporate mentality.
When my wife got fired from her job of 32 years three years ago she was told she needed to leave by the back door.
Her response "I came in the front door and I'm going out the front door"
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Never Stop Dancin Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. it doesn't bother me
I'm a back door man.
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Snoutport Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. I like your wife!!
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Buns_of_Fire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
75. Bravo to your wife. I said the exact same thing to my sleazy ex-boss
(just before I was escorted out the FRONT door, thank you very much!). But I couldn't resist one final jab -- this was a company paranoid to the extreme about the possibility that an employee might take away one of their "trade secrets" or something -- so, I just casually said, "By the way, if there was anything this place has that I'd want, I've already got it." Thought he was going to have a heart attack right then and there over the possibility. Loved it. :evilgrin:
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
23. State Police were always called in for mass layoffs on my blue collar job
Edited on Tue May-31-11 08:18 AM by NNN0LHI
That is who escorted us out of the building. And that was 30 years ago.

Appears they are doing that everywhere now.

Don
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Godhumor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
25. I taught at McKinley Tech, and I know many of those laid off. The principal is under investigation
I was one of the first teachers hired after the RIF action in 2003, oddly enough, when McKinley reopened its doors after being "shuttered" for many years.

I left before Rhee came in, but since then McKinley has fallen apart. Now the current principal is under investigation for misuse of grant money (I posted about it before).

Shame to see what has happened there.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Interesting.
Thanks for sharing that. There are some principals in our area who bear investigating, but it seems teachers are the only ones expected to be accountable.
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Godhumor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Links, if you'd like to see what the school is dealing with right now
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard...

Shame, I loved it when I was there (When it first opened has a different principal and different philosophy).
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distilledvinegar Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
91. being a principal is a great job for a sociopath
I've worked for some wonderful principals, so I'm not looking to paint all of them with a broad brush, but think about it. Principals are minimally supervised and they control budgets, careers, their students, an entire community. The job itself inherently provides its holder with a good reputation - people just assume that anyone who has made it to being a principal is honest, intelligent, caring, etc. There really is a shortage of qualified individuals for the job, so candidates aren't vetted as thoroughly as you might think. The truth is that many principals (especially the bad ones) move around a lot from school to school and district to district. Another career path is for them to "fail up" into central office positions which is especially dangerous as it allows their poison to spread even more effectively.

As long as a principal can stay under their district's radar, usually by keeping parents happy, they can treat their employees pretty much however they wish, contract or no contract. That gives someone who craves the power to do everything their way regardless of how it effects anyone else a lot of freedom to be as abusive as they wanna be. You hear a lot about sociopathic CEOs, but they can be found in any organization, especially the ones with a strong top-down management style.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #91
108. I Think Sociopathy is the main issue Behind this Country's Decline
it's behind corruption and war.... sociopaths were always known to get others to do their bidding while hiding the truth from everyone, even themselves. They are damaged human beings who never quench their thirst for purpose or reward. They are addicts of power...
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #108
137. +1 n/t
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #91
151. This is EXACTLY why I quit teaching.
The last time was when I was hired to build an entirely new program for a school. They had never had a program like this and I decided that the programs should be built so that it already qualified to become AP. As there budget was pretty much zero and the material costs of starting a band a HUGE I solicited donations and most of them came in the form of loans from friends of mine in the music industry.

About 3/4 of the way through the year they decided that I was "making too many waves" (translate: too successful for the principal) and was called in for a meeting before school. I showed up, was told I was fired and told to leave the building. I could see the music headmaster waiting in the wings along with security to escort me off the campus. The principal asked me if I understood what he had said. I asked him if his decision was final. He assured me that it was so I just stood up and walked out and went to my classroom. The principal, headmaster and security guard trailed after me telling me to leave. I told them that they were trying to steal all the donatated and lent equipment and music supplies and that I wasn't leaving without them. If they didn't like that then they could call the cops - then I whipped out my phone and called them myself.

I took a hard left throught the main doors into the kids waiting to enter school and then out to my room with those 3 dips following behind. The kids asked me what was up and I told them that I had just been fired and that band was over for the year. The principal almost had a heart attack on the spot, telling me that I didn't have the authority to talk to the kids. I laughed at his fat ass and told him to "shut your pie hole unless you have something intelligent to say. You fired me. I don't work for you any more. You have zero control over what I do or say."

I talked to the cops and asked them to send someone by the school. I called a lawyer friend and he called the cops and interviened on my behalf (a don't arrest him or I'll be suing you because you jumped to conclusions and violated his property rights conversation). Eventually, after the kids had gone to class the principal hung around for a while until I told him to make his fat ass useful or get the fuck out of my way.

I packed up all the music charts, instruments, etc. and left them with the 3 grade 1 songs they had before I got there. What a waste.

And I decided then and there that I wasn't going to put myself through any shit like that again. The difference between a teacher getting fired and someone in a regular job is that teachers have a narrow window to get hired that occurs in the spring through summer of every year. Often changing jobs for a teacher means having to move. It isn't as easy as losing an office job. There is always another company out there looking for similar skills(OK - not so much today). If a teacher is fired mid year like I was then they are screwed. Get used to saying "would you like fries with that?"

Nope - teaching is not an avocation, a mission, or charity work. It's a profession. And it's one that I would NEVER recommend to anyone. EVER.

I loved the kids, but I have to imagine it's even worse now with Cap'n Arne and the test pirates running things.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
26. Standard procedure in most businesses
Edited on Tue May-31-11 09:08 AM by proud2BlibKansan
I think we have enough to criticize without this security procedure, which is very common when employees are laid off or fired.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Really? Teachers are laid off here without all that humiliation.
I really do disagree. I could see it in some business settings with high security, but teachers are not that kind of threat.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. When they go in the middle of the year here, security is involved
At the end of the year they aren't.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Well, I guess they found out what a dangerous threat teachers are.
:shrug:
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
184. Yes, really
Every job I ever had everyone was escorted out this way big company or small be it the lowliest of clerks to the VP. You were lucky if you could clear out your desk of your personal items. And they scrutinized anything you took - even a ballpoint pen (you better be able to prove it was YOUR personal pen purchased with YOUR money or you couldn't take it with you). Building security is usually right there to escort you out of the building, all the way to your car and watches you leave the lot. If you're unlucky enough to have to do the Walk of Shame when you take public trans or are dropped off, good luck to you getting building security to let you hang out in the lobby to wait for a ride to come get you, and dragging your personal stuff to the train is your problem.

I lost three office sweaters because of not being permitted to get my personal items before being put out, but I considered losing them or running the risk of losing another eventually a risk worth taking since every office I ever worked in was too damn cold. Co-workers often had pacts that they knew where you kept your personal belongings and rescued them for you (if they could) to deliver to you somewhere off the premisis... had to do this more than once and did it for others as well. Nobody kept much of anything personal at work anyway for this reason, and women tended to carry large purses so they'd have their hairbrush, tampons, aspirin, band aids, and other personal items on them all the time so they wouldn't go to the "Company Involuntary Donation Box" if you got sacked.

A lot of the time people know they're about to get canned because before the firing they find they're locked out of their computer system or the whole unit has been removed all together. I prefer it that way because at least that gives you a few moments to grab your personal stuff.

This has been SOP from at least the early '80's when I started in the corporate workforce. I'm baffled that you've never even heard of it.


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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. Why can't they talk? When did we lose the right of free association?
The Principal is not King.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
33. When the custodians in my district were privatized, the
school board hired a company to come in and change the locks while the vote was being held. Not after the vote was taken to privatize, but during the vote. The custodians were allowed back in to empty their lockers with police accompanying them. Of course fuck all was said about it,they're just janitors. Business as usual at school the next day.No outrage reported.
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
36. This is typical in industry
Sorry, but perhaps you are not aware of what happens in non-governmental offices. Grabbing a box of your things and being led out is very common......unless they need you to remain, to help hold the business together until it is closed or sold. There are practical reasons for this............not having disgruntled employees around complaining about their lay-off, the quality of work they will get from someone that knows they are leaving soon, etc. I realize that it humiliating, but it is nothing new. I have worked with managers that, if you gave a 2-week notice, would ask you how long it would take to clean out your things and leave.....because they thought it would be disruptive. I have not liked being on the receiving end, but it happens. It appears to only be new for you.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. I guess I'm odd....I don't consider teachers as "industry".
I am old-fashioned, I consider them as individuals working with children in a trusted capacity.

I notice around here now that things are changing.
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. When I say "industry", I refer to non-government
I agree that their position with children is important, but I don't hold teachers with any greater esteem than engineers or scientists. Teachers are only now feeling the same indignities as the rest of us have felt. Join the party.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. They have been brought down, right?
And that makes you happy. They now have little respect, and that's fine. Right?

"As for pension and health-care envy, it is a sad thing when working Americans complain that someone else has benefits, instead of agreeing that everyone should have coverage for their health and old age. It reminds me of an old Soviet joke where a peasant says, "My neighbor has a cow and I have none, I want his cow to die." We should not join in this race to the bottom."

-Diane Ravitch

http://nyceducator.com /
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Maybe if your outrage extended outside of education it'd be better received?
:shrug:

There's no excuse for the humilation that takes place like this in any sector. It has happened to most of us personally or to people we know and love.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. I was a teacher, I speak for that field. Others should speak out for their field.
I don't write about the corporate world except for its impact on education. I don't know what goes on there.

If I wanted acceptance, I would not post at DU about teachers.

They are not popular here.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
haikugal Donating Member (476 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #55
134. I look forward to reading your threads and comments.
I grew up in a family of teachers and education is very important to me. Good teachers are worth their weight in gold and don't deserve what is happening, neither do the children or our country.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #52
81. Then
why aren't you committed to advocating for the people you know and love? Where are your multiple journal posts detailing the injustices you and your peers have experienced?
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #81
87. Lolz
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #87
127. hmm...
Really?

An astonishing number of DUers are willfully ignorant about the current administration's assault on teachers, unions, and our entire system of public education. Denigrating madfloridian's focus on this egregious assault on public education diminishes all of us who remain unemployed and unemployable as a direct result of our 'democratic' president's destructive policies.

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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
73. Rather than satisfaction at seeing educators feel indignities
"Teachers are only now feeling the same indignities as the rest of us have felt..."

Rather than satisfaction at seeing educators feel indignities as "the rest of us", I would imagine it would be somewhat more satisfying to prevent "the rest of us" from being subjected to those indignities in the first place.

However, I do understand that many people want a level playing field so much, they'd just as soon see everyone dragged down to achieve that rather than everyone rising up to achieve it.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
142. If it were not for teachers, you wouldn't have those
engineers and scientists in the first place, period. And, having grown up with teachers, I'm well aware of the professional indiginities they dealt with for decades, long before now. Being treated in an undignified, unprofessional manner is not at all a new thing for teachers, far from it. It's just been ratcheted up to unprecedented levels now.

And engineers and scientists are treated with a lot more professional respect and esteem than teachers, who helped them become members of those professions in the first place. And people wonder why I never wanted to follow in my parents' professional footsteps. I saw them work their hearts out all those years and get shit for it and I wasn't about to endure the same thing. Now it looks as if I made the right decision in that regard, even though it was more than two decades ago that I did so. There will be no trouble attracting qualified, talented individuals to the engineering and scientific professions, now or in the future. But good luck trying to do so with teaching, no one is going to want to enter the profession and I can't say I blame them at all.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #142
153. I think you are wrong.
There will be NO problems attracting teachers to teaching. It's just that they will be attracted to countries where public education isn't in freefall. I just checked, the starting wage for a just out of school teacher in Alberta, Canada is $57,000 per year. And teachers there stay until retirement.

What a difference, no?
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
62. It's bullshit when it happens in industry too.
In civilized nations everyone in the office would walk out alongside any ex-employee who was mistreated that way.

Here in the USA we cower before our feudal lords.

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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
93. What, is she going to walk out with trade secrets?
A new formula for crayons? A better way to memorize the quadratic equation?
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #36
152. The main predictor of student success is a good teacher and ...
... the relationships they develop. Motivation is pretty key. Doing it this way leaves a bad taste in everyones mouth and is the opposite of good education.

Shouldn't we strive for a higher standard for our kids?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
40. What a jaded group we have become.
It is mostly acceptable here now for this to happen, even teachers weigh in that it is okay.

In my mind when educators are treated like criminals in a society...that society is already failing.
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I am not happy about it, but.....
...they are now treated like a lot of the rest of us.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Ah, now I get it. They are being taken down a notch so to speak.
And that makes you happy.

Well, good for you.

""As for pension and health-care envy, it is a sad thing when working Americans complain that someone else has benefits, instead of agreeing that everyone should have coverage for their health and old age. It reminds me of an old Soviet joke where a peasant says, "My neighbor has a cow and I have none, I want his cow to die." We should not join in this race to the bottom."

-Diane Ravitch

http://nyceducator.com /
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Your words, not mine.....
Your assumption, not mine. It is obvious that you are angry about something...and that is fine. But, you don't get to describe what I believe (especially when you are WRONG), because you don't know me....and I did NOT say what you accuse me of.

My statement was clear..........this sort of thing has happened to people in "Corporate America" for many years. That it happens to teachers is new, but not a surprise. I make no judgements on the value of different professions. If that is your position, I disagree.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Oh, I get it.
I really do. Yes, I am "angry" about something. I am angry that a Dem president is completing the drive to privatize education and turn it into a corporate tool.

Why aren't you angry about that?
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Another assumption...
who said that I am not angry about this?? Apparently, only you.

This is supposed to be our guy, but he has been at least as corporatist as Bush.

I merely addressed the facts that people in Corporate America every day.....without diminishing any profession. Perhaps you will now understand.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #50
133. they are now treated like a lot of the rest of us
That statement often speaks volumes about a persons position on an issue
Ho, I don't know you, but I've known many people who have used that phrase or one similar when taking the "That's tough sh*t for you." position
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #133
141. Or.....
That it happened to a teacher somehow makes it more egregious?

Looking up at that pedestal is making my neck hurt. Are there professions that are "better than" others?

As I said in a previous post, it happened to me... and no one was all aghast at the process of my removal, or that of my 9 co-workers. And we were Social Workers FFS. Full escort and the whole nine yards.

"tough shit for you?" Tough shit for all of us..... period.

The sainthood is not immune, apparently.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #141
144. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #141
163. And it was wrong in that instance as well
But, I didn't see anything about it.
Had I seen anything about it I would have felt the same way I do about this.

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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #163
168. Yes!
It's absolutely wrong. This was 2001, the practice is not new nor specific to the teaching profession.

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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #168
176. Unserstand and agree completely
It's an obnoxious practice that I think should only apply under 1 of 4 conditions:
1) You work in a facility that is involved in classified materials
2) You're being fired for stealing things from the office
3) You're known to make a real scene
4) You are prone to violence of have a weapon in your office
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #42
66. You act as if this type of treatment....
... is perfectly acceptable and in the norm. I hear no outrage in your posts, only justification.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #42
83. Who the hell do you think you're fooling? -nt
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
99. Why do people put up with it then? Why don't they fight
rather than behave like sheep? I would never, ever work for a business where people were treated like that, I would leave. There are worse things than losing a job.

Where was the outrage if this is normal treatment of employees? I did not know this. Americans are going to have to develop some guts. I was going to say 'before it's too late', but seeing comments like yours, so accepting of these outrages, makes me think maybe it is already too late.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
104. And that makes education better how?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #42
115. And anyone who's against teachers being treated like this
is just as strongly against any other workers being treated like this, so what's your point?

The OP was never saying that it was only wrong to do this to teachers, and you know it.
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skygazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #42
140. Which is okay why?
Why is it okay for anyone to be treated like this? This is a very peculiar post.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-11 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #40
202. so when everyone else BUT educators are treated like criminals it's ok?
Clearly you don't think that society is failing when everyone BUT teachers are treated like criminals.

And before you make yet another claim that anyone mentioning this must just hate teachers, no, we're mentioning it because your entire approach and responses have clearly shown that you never gave a shit about any of this type of treatment UNTIL it happened to teachers. No, we aren't gloating that teachers have had to finally join the rest of us on the Walk of Shame when fired, we're irritated that it never bothered you while it was happening for decades to everyone EXCEPT teachers, and bothered you so little that - according to you - you weren't even AWARE that this is what everyone else in every industry was dealing with for DECADES - DECADES. No, the problem isn't that we don't care about teachers, the problem is you never cared about anyone BUT teachers to the point that you claim you weren't even AWARE of what the rest of us non-teaching folk have been dealing with for decades.

In another reply in this thread you pretty much spelled it out that you DON'T CARE what other people in other industries have had to deal with and ONLY care about YOUR industry - education. I feel absolutely not one single iota of sympathy for anyone that makes it so clear that they care only about themselves and their fellows in their particular industry WHILE attempting to elicit sympathy from those in other industries for themselves and their fellows AND on top of that claim that anyone that brings this up must just hate teachers. Using that rationale then you clearly you must hate everyone BUT teachers... not much of a stretch seeing as how plain you've made it that you don't care about anyone in any industry but education.


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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
46. "she was not allowed to talk to us, and we were not allowed to talk to her"...since
when to we fall in line and not talk to people they don't want us to talk to? Who said they couldn't speak, I don't understand why they would obey such and order from someone in HR.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #46
154. When I was fired from a teaching job they told me not to talk to anyone.
I talked to everyone.

They scolded me for talking and I said "waddaya gonna do, fire me? What are you, retarded? I DON"T WORK FOR YOU ANYMORE. GET IT?"
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Lizzie Poppet Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-11 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #46
194. Ridiculous.
I think if I found myself in that situation, I'd tell the HR twit to suck it. I'll speak to whomever I choose, and if they try to stop me, they'll be looking a 1st Amendment-based civil suit straight in the eye.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
47. When there is no longer any outrage over anything...
when everything is acceptable...then in my estimation we have become mindless and complacent.
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
48. Standard procedure...
Yes, it sucks, but that it's a teacher makes it more egregious?
Been there, done that. No one wrote about my or my co-worker's "treatment."

Demoralizing....absolutely.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. So you feel good that the teachers are being taken down a notch.
Thanks for being honest.

"As for pension and health-care envy, it is a sad thing when working Americans complain that someone else has benefits, instead of agreeing that everyone should have coverage for their health and old age. It reminds me of an old Soviet joke where a peasant says, "My neighbor has a cow and I have none, I want his cow to die." We should not join in this race to the bottom."

-Diane Ravitch

http://nyceducator.com /
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Your words, not mine.......
My message was VERY clear......this has happened in Corporate American for many years. That it might happen to teachers is NEW, but not a surprise. You are obviously mad about that, which is fine.....but that is not my fault.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Yes, I am mad about it. But since no one else seems to care it will become normal...
and accepted. The corporations will soon have public education in the same business mode.

And since I am retired, it won't affect me.

This nation does not respect education any longer. That is the shame.
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. My other point is.......
.....if OUR guy allows this to happen, what is the next step?? I know that you have spoken eloquently on education for some time.....but anger is going to give us a solution to this. What is the next step?? I am with you on this issue, but to do what??

I have my issues with what the teaching profession has become, but I am not looking to dump millions of great teachers, for balancing budgets. Improvements in the system can start by gutting the schools. These appear to be two very different things.
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Oooops.....can't start by gutting schools
Honestly, a typo. : )
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End Of The Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #59
77. You do yourself and the rest of us a disservice
when you say that "no one else seems to care."

Millions of Americans care about this, and you know it. Whether or not "caring" will be enough to defeat the corporate interests is another matter.

Hundreds of us, if not more, here at DU care passionately about the future of public ed. We read and K&R your posts because they're important to us.

So, you're the only one that cares, huh?

I'm totally insulted and disgusted.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #77
145. Why don't you save being "totally insulted and disgusted"
for the treatment the OP is describing, and for any other workers treated in such a way, and for those who are minimizing this behavior, instead of shooting the messenger, who was only replying to some really disgusting posts?
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. You mean like the rest of us?
Appreciate your honesty as well.


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
60. Wow, you guys win the fight.
At least we know to be on the outlook for dangerous educators.

I'm tired. It ain't worth it.
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Wow.......thanks for the lesson.....
on distorting a debate. No thanks.
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. If we can't discuss this fairly, I'm done too
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Shining Jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #67
112. Well, since you replied to yourself....
I guess that it wasn't a discussion at all, more like some kind of monologue.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #65
94. What debate? Jesus Christ, all I can see is you trying to minimize something awful.
Edited on Tue May-31-11 04:50 PM by sudopod
And getting mad when you don't get any shouts of "amen!"

bloody hell.
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Shining Jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #94
113. +1 n/t
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #94
143. +2 million.
I'm sick to death of people around here who've never set foot in a classroom, yet feel perfectly qualified to make pronouncements and judgments and proclaim what should be done and minimize the horrible damage being done to teachers, their profession and public education, then get mad at actual teachers when they try to explain things. Unbe-fucking-lievable. I grew up with very hard-working teachers who put up with a lot of shit and know first-hand that teachers don't get anywhere near the appreciation, respect and compensation they more than deserve. And it is a critical and vital profession without which most others would not exist.
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #94
175. I love the denial of malice.
sophomoric
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
64. Are these horror stories or SOP?
Sounds like outliers. Unless, that's how every teacher in America is fired.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. SOP...brought to you by obama`s b ball buddy arne duncan
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abelenkpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
68. Dont understand
They are firing experienced teachers and simultaneously hiring new teachers? Are the new teachers being hired with lower pay and less benefits? Do they have any experience? Are they still part of the union?
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. hiring new teachers to lower costs and...
a simple way to break the unions.
this is all about union busting and hiring teachers by the hour with minimum benefits.

the key to this is organizing the students...
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blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
71. More bullshit attacks on teachers.
Scumbags.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
74. How many jobs let you stick and talk to friends after being fired?
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #74
85. In order to be an honest depiction,
the pic you have of Obama and Duncan SHOULD read:

"Deforming American Schools for the 21st Century"

(I won't even bother to address the ethnocentrism inherent in the phrase 'American Schools.')
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #85
177. People are always averse to change, even those in the education community
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-11 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #177
199. hmph
Making bigoted, blanket statements about a large and diverse group of people does NOT support your thesis.

Like so many teachers I've had the honor of meeting, I have LONG wanted fundamental changes in the way we teach core subjects, in the amount of funding available for our students, in the types and quantities of food we provide them, and in the 'supervisory' behaviors of school administrations. I have advocated for peer support programs, or any proven program to address bullying. Geez, I could list dozens of other 'changes' I'd like to see.

Most importantly, I recognize (amd MUCH appreciate) that I change every time I encounter a group of students. I grow and improve as a teacher with each teaching experience, because the inherent duality of the classroom allows ME to learn even as I help my students learn.

You cannot change the FACT that Obama's policies regarding public education are a continuation of efforts to privatize this enormous PUBLIC system so that a handful of corporatists can realize a profit. Our children's futures--and the future of our democracy--are ill-served by these policies.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #74
114. How can you defend this teacher's friends not being allowed to comfort her
Edited on Tue May-31-11 08:37 PM by Ken Burch
and offer emotional support?

Why should she have been marched out of the building as if she was a criminal? Wasn't it ENOUGH just to take her job away?

And you DID get to the part in the OP where the court case proved that this teacher's firing was totally unjustified, right?

There's no way you could seriously argue that educational reform requires that the termination of school employees be a moment of public humiliation.

Nor should it be such for anyone else...with the sole exception of a CEO being perp-walked out for theft(and who will STILL get a "golden parachute" on her or his dismissal, no matter what)

Do you really hate public school teachers THIS deeply, Freddie?

And do you honestly believe that these kind of tactics lead to kids getting a better education?

If you do, you should just admit you're a Republican and be done with it.

Democrats are supposed to DEFEND working people and fight for their right to be treated with dignity.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #114
148. Don't bother trying to "educate" Freddie,
Edited on Wed Jun-01-11 03:56 PM by liberalhistorian
my friend, it's just not worth it. There is no indignity against both teachers and public education that he will not support, apparently. I'm beginning to think he owns stock in a hack-uh, sorry, I meant charter-school company.

My parents endured a lot of shit throughout their careers from people like him, too. Sad and disgusting.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #148
155. Maybe some teacher made him stay after school and write a sentence 400 times ONCE too often
There's no rational explanation for his hatred of public school teachers.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #155
166. Personally, I think he either owns stock in a for-profit
Edited on Wed Jun-01-11 07:52 PM by liberalhistorian
so-called "education" (gag!) company that "runs" charter schools, or he works for one. That would explain a lot.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #114
178. It is common practice to immediately remove a terminated employee from the workplace
in order to avoid trouble. Are educators that unique that normal rules of the workplace do not apply to them?

Of course I do not hate public school teachers. But I understand that they, like all employees, must be held accountable for their work. Our children deserve a quality education.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #178
180. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #178
182. OK, then...How can you defend the way this woman was removed from the workplace
Edited on Thu Jun-02-11 05:20 PM by Ken Burch
as COMMON PRACTICE for the treatment of terminated employees? Do you really believe that humiliation and emotional trauma are necessary parts of firing people?

And, again, DID you read the part of the op where it was proved in the judge's ruling that there was no justification for firing this teacher?

Why are you defending an incident that was, in fact, an injustice?

Would letting this teacher's co-workers comfort her on the way out the door really have impaired any child's education?

My God, Freddie, you have no idea how dogmatic your sounding in this thread. Are you reading anything that's being posted here or just posting what Arne tells you to post?

There's no way that "education reform" has to be this brutal.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-11 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #182
193. I do not see why teachers should be treated any different than other terminated employees
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-11 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #193
197. Then why should terminated employees, unless they're actually being terminated
for criminal activities, be treated that way? Isn't it enough just to end their employment?

Also...did you NOTICE the part of the OP where it pointed out that the judge found that this teacher's termination was totally unjustified? If so, does that matter to you at all?
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #74
146. Well, well, well. I was wondering when our very own
resident teacher-hater was going to show up. Took a little longer than I thought, though. Don't worry, we'll get to your goal of firing every teacher in the nation and replacing them with ten-dollar-an-hour hacks with no benefits soon enough. Sooner rather than later, at the rate things are going now.

I'm so glad my parents are retired now, they worked their asses off in the classroom for decades for what now appears to be nothing.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #146
149. So did I...work hard for what appears to be nothing.
I had my pride, but with Rick Scott and GOP in charge...pensions could be in danger.

This forum now attracts the anti-teacher vitriol. It's tempting to just not post anymore.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #149
150. I'm sure it is tempting, mad, but please don't give
in to it, 'cause we need you now, more than ever.

The ONLY good thing to come out of my stepdad's being in a nursing home with early dementia and not knowing anything or anyone is that he isn't aware of what's happening to the profession he strongly dedicated his life to. And now mom is broke all the time because most of his pension goes to pay for his nursing home (Medicaid won't help pay the difference without that) and her smaller pension isn't enough to pick up the slack. Never mind that she worked equally hard at teaching for all those decades, before burning out earlier than retirement age. They both have gotten shit from it, and now have to watch their profession being demonized, trashed, stomped on, strangled, burned and thrown on the dungheap. Too sad for words.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #146
179. Holding people accountable for their work does not equal hate
Why should teachers be different from other professions?
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #179
181. They're not. But they're held "accountable" for factors
over which they have NO. CONTROL. AT. ALL. Unlike most other workers.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #179
183. The judge's ruling PROVED this teacher didn't deserve to be fired
Did you not read that?

Therefore, marching her out of the building like she was a criminal wasn't about holding her accountable at all.

And even if she'd deserved to be fired, there's no way that it would have harmed anything to do it at the end of the day, when no one was around, let her have the time she needed to get her things and collect herself, and allow her to leave with dignity.

And you also know perfectly well that it's wrong to treat anyone who's being fired(other than a perp-walked thieving CEO) as brutally as this teacher is treated. Nobody was saying that it's only wrong to do this to teachers.

Everyone who's fired should at least be allowed to leave the workplace as little trauma as possible. Losing the job is punishment enough.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #183
185. Again, my friend, there's no point in trying to get
facts across to Freddie and expecting him to even listen, let alone understand. He's much more interested in demonizing, trashing and scapegoating teachers and stripping away everything that makes their work lives bearable.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #185
186. I guess I just didn't want to leave his posts unanswered.
He sounds like a Soviet official defending the Warsaw Pact intervention in Czechoslovakia in '68, or maybe somebody at the Chinese embassy giving the official line on Tibet or Tienenman Square.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #186
190. You know, you've actually described
him pretty well, unfortunately. That's a very apt description.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
78. why the need for law enforcement?!?!?!?!
Edited on Tue May-31-11 04:02 PM by fascisthunter
The government is using law enforcement(Union) to intimidate teachers nationally by doing this. Hey, law enforcement, you are next!
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
86. Great! Fire the good teachers and hire the newer cheaper ones...
...so that eventually they kids are being 'educated' (i.e. taught how to pass standardized tests) by the lowest bidders for the job...

Just fucking brilliant!!!

We really are just in a race to the bottom aren't we?
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End Of The Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. I'm not sure TFAers are cheaper than "traditional" teachers.
There's a post around here somewhere that says that the administrative fees paid to the TFA organization bring total costs for a TFA teacher to MORE than a traditional educator.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. They are not cheaper. Their hiring begins the deprofessionalizing of teaching..
Their hiring profits a company that pays their CEOs huge money. But they will be gone in about 3 years to make way for newer teachers. Those teachers may or may not be recruited through new teacher companies...but by then it won't matter.

By that time the career teachers who trained for a life of teaching will be gone mostly, and it will become a temp job with no benefits....just like everything else in this corporatization of a once great country.
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distilledvinegar Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #90
95. yes, the beauty of a TFAer
It's not just about them being cheap - it's also that TFA teachers rarely stay with the job long enough to get "tenure." That is extremely attractive to administrators, as a teacher without tenure can be fired any time for any reason or no reason at all. Teachers without tenure do what they are told, how they are told to do it. Teach to a test? Sure. Follow scripted curriculum? Of course. Spend hours testing, pouring over test data and "prescribing" interventions based on that data? Wonderful! Configure your blackboard (or whiteboard) exactly as you are told? Is there any other way? And if you've never had tenure, it won't be so difficult to deny you the opportunity to ever get it. Trying to take it away from those who already have it is another story altogether.

Experienced teachers, on the other hand, might assign group projects, encourage collaborative learning, and allow students to choose the books they read. Horror! They might even deviate from the pacing guide that tells you exactly what lesson to be on every day (regardless of the needs of your students).

Also, you have a lot more energy your first couple years as a teacher, before you get your head around what's really happening and start seriously questioning things. New teachers don't have time for questions. There's a lot more to it than just cheaper teachers, although of course that is a big part of the draw.
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End Of The Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. I'm not convinced TFA is the enemy.
I'm still formulating my opinion on them, but here's where I am so far:

TFA was originally founded to send college grads to the poorest, neediest schools. Data seems to indicate that they had positive results (based on student test scores) in those schools where they replaced unqualified (uncertified) or otherwise piss-poor teachers. Before I get jumped on, however, let me add that their students' test scores were not impressive compared to "traditional" educators.

But since TFA's founding in 1990, I think they have been co-opted by the myriad groups that want to kill teachers unions. Whether or not they are intentionally complicit in destroying unions, I'm dunno, I'm still working that out. Surely they know, at the very least, that they are being used for that end, and that does not speak well for TFA.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. They are now being used to replace experienced, often tenured teachers.
They were not meant to do that originally. When reformers got their hands on things, they changed.
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End Of The Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Duh... that's what I said. nt
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. That was rude.
I was just reiterating what you said.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #98
157. Let me help you understand.
TFA is a middleman. Like a health insurance company, a numbers runner, a Koch funded thinktank, or a pimp.

They create nothing and cost plenty. Nothing of value comes from them. I hope that helps.
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distilledvinegar Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #90
110. actually, TFAers often are cheaper
Looking at the NYCDOE salary schedule (pdf file), a brand new TFA teacher would start at $45,530/yr (this is assuming that they are coming in with only a Bachelor's degree). A teacher with five years experience in the district and a teaching credential from a traditional program earns $65,600/yr. If they can get rid of that teacher, the district can give TFA their $10k and still come out more than $10k ahead, plus they don't have to pay for any retraining. Consider that a teacher with five years experience, a BA, a traditional credential, and an MA makes $72,848, and if they can manage to kick a teacher with the same qualifications and 20 years of experience to the curb, they cut their salary cost by more than 50%.

This is not to disagree at all that teaching is being deprofessionalized, I'm just saying it is very much about the money. Every cut made to education funding makes this scam all the more attractive to school districts.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #89
156. Exactly - it's the same kind of graft we see in ...
... defence contractors, mafia, health insurance, etc...

USA - exporting graft, er, democracy and capitalism since 1776.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
88. What hath Obama wrought? Guilty
of ignorance and lack of concern or guilty of compliance with right-wing ideologues in implementing a corporate education system, this president is laying the groundwork for what will become his lasting legacy: the end of the American education system.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
92. REC. nt
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
103. Well thank goodness cuz' we all know how many teachers are shooting up schools these days, right????
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cstanleytech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
105. It wouldnt surprise me in the least if someone is getting kickbacks
to fire the teachers and hire certain other ones as mentioned below

"Critics wonder why the city has accepted the new recruits 400 from New York City Teaching Fellows and 100 from Teach for America - to work in shortage areas like special education instead of retraining teachers on the payroll."
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October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
107. Our local principal was escorted out in the same way YEARS ago
She was beloved by parents and kids, but the teachers did not like her. She was escorted out like a criminal. Ugly.
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StarsInHerHair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
111. Like they did in OldvRome, Christians are shuttingv down schools, going
after women especially & removing THEM-their book & all, getting rid of voting rights, etc., & I think these evangelical "Christians" really believe they will manage to repeat what they did at he start of the Age of the Fish.
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Shining Jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
116. K&R
That's revolting. :(
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
117. Counterpoint to the excess of teacher's unions.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. I'm trying to think of recent incidents, but drawing a blank.
:shrug:

Got any links?

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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #117
174. Like what?
What excess? Most of us aren't even allowed, by law, to strike. :crazy:
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lynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
119. Nothing new. This is how lay offs have been done for years. -
- I was called in, given my severance papers, asked for my keys and badge. They had already removed my computer access so I could not clean out my computer for phone numbers I might need, etc. I was handed a cardboard box to clean out my desk and was walked out the door.

I was laid off with a group of employees 1 1/2 yrs ago. I had worked there over 25 years.

No reason why this individual should get special treatment. Its just the way its done, like it or not.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #119
122. Everyone feels better that teachers do the perp/shame walk.
Brings them down a notch or two, doesn't it? uppity teachers.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #119
158. Rule one. Always keep important files backed up ...
... on a drive that YOU OWN. You walk and your info walks too.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #119
203. Really, lynne?
How sad that you assert 'it's just the way it's done, like it or not'! No one should have to go through a disrespectful, demeaning 'perp walk.' NO ONE should be humiliated like that, even you.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
120. You never let fired employees talk with other employees, but it doesn't take the police to do that.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #120
130. That's inhumane
People develop ties with their coworkers.

Are we all supposed to be machines?
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #130
169. They can have those discussions away from work
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #169
170. Since when do people lose their rights of free speech and free association?
n.t
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-11 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #170
191. Anyone can be in a school and claim free speech and free association?
Me and a group of people can walk into an elementary school start having a picnic and when they ask us to leave claim free speech and free association? Are you out of your mind? Once the person was terminated they have no reason to be on the property or communicating with employees.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-11 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #191
192. Nobody is saying that just anyone can walk into a school, but in ANY environment
to make terminated employees do the perp walk, whether they've done anything wrong or not, is inhumane.

Unless they've privy to company secrets, what's wrong with giving them the rest of the day to pack up and say goodbye?

(If the company is afraid that an innocent laid-off employee is going to commit sabotage, then there's something really wrong with the company culture. Or are they afraid that other employees are going to protest the layoff? Or is the company ashamed of what it is doing and eager to hide the "evidence" as soon as possible?)

I am SO glad that I am now self-employed and don't have to put up with either the threat of instant dismissal or the pain of seeing my coworkers marched out of the building like criminals.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-11 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #192
200. Laid off and terminated employees do commit sabotage. You sound as if you think that doesn't happen

It happens all the time. Someone will leave a terminated or laid off employee out of sight and all of a sudden a whole sharepoint drive is whiped out. You can't pick and choose which ones to walk out or let linger, you have to have a consistant policy or risk legal actions. And some terminated employees are criminals, sometimes their criminal activity is the reason they have been terminated.

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-11 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #200
201. Well then frogmarch the criminal ones, but show a little humanity to
Edited on Fri Jun-03-11 11:04 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
the ones who have received some extremely frightening news simply because the company decided to downsize or because some guy with a calculator where his heart should be figured out that the shareholders would get $1 extra per share next quarter if the company shipped that person's job to India or whatever. Talk about salt in wounds!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
121. K/R
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badtoworse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
123. Standard procedure in the private sector. It happened to me; no big deal. - nt
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fatbuckel Donating Member (518 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
124. Explain this...
His 40+ page decision explained in detail how virtually all of the evidence collected against her was either laughably flimsy, or supported her contention that she was, in fact, a very good teacher.

So evidence collected against her was supported by her contention that she was a good teacher? What?
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brooklynite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
125. This is standard...
Last year, when my office laid off staff, I was "volunteered" to act as an escort.

This seems to come out of a standard HR consulting policy: as soon as someone is notified they're being canned, they're escorted to their desk to pick up their personal items ( which is an issue in itself), and then escorted out of the building. Not allowed to talk to anyone (potentially "disruptive").
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
126. K&R'd
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-11 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
128. Because of this fucking disgraceful excuse for an education policy...
I no longer wish to be a public educator. Same for one of my friends who was also previously considering going into special ed.

Congratulations, President Obama. You're making people not want to be teachers anymore.

Fucking. Disgraceful.
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haikugal Donating Member (476 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #128
136. The death of Hope AND Change....
Edited on Wed Jun-01-11 09:39 AM by haikugal
My feeling is that once the boomers are gone they will have implemented all the systems required for total control. Ours is the last generation that knew what it was like and still fight to make it better..now people just accept the unacceptable.
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Courtesy Flush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
135. Guaranteed to lower teacher quality
They're making it so the only people who would work as a teacher is those who are otherwise unemployable. Anyone who can work anywhere else, will.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #135
159. Well - Walmart opened a public school a few years ago...
... in Detroit I think. So we can clearly see where the road is leading.

Lesson one; "how to say Welcome to Walmart."
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trud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
138. nothing unusual about that
Typical way anyone is fired in corporate America.

Guess what, showing up is not a guarantee the person does a good job. Neither is losing weight. You only have to look at the classes of illiterates today's teachers are cranking out to know that.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
139. Kicking, horrific
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
161. Unfortunately, this type of action is very common in the work force
It is disrespectful on a grand scale ... doing this to teachers is no more or less outrageous than doing it to anyone. Sadly, over the course of the last few years I have seen engineers, geologists, chemists ... escorted off the premises.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #161
162. Oh yes, indeed, almost every post in this thread has excused this because...
it happens to engineers, chemists, etc. Or because it happened to them. Well these are teachers fired while students are on campus, not allowed to take years of personal stuff with them. They are NOT security threats as some might be to their companies.

Teachers are NOT security threats.

Why are they being fired during the school year? Why are they not allowed to talk with friends?

Why is education now equated with the business world. Oh, wait, I know....because the privatization is almost done.

People are pleased because now teachers are being perped walk....just like everyone else.

People think teachers are arrogant, they have no respect for the years of education, they just don't care, and even the union people here at DU do not support teachers' unions.

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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #162
165. You would garner a lot more support if you extended your outrage to every working person...
... that this happens too.I feel no special sense of outrage that this happened to a teacher. Teachers are like all other folk .... most don't deserve this type of treatment ... they are not special because they are teachers ... they are special because they are people, like all other workers, that do not deserve this type of treatment without cause.

News flash .... teachers are just like everyone else ... no one deserves this... but their profession of choice does not make them less deserving. sanitation workers do not deserve this, attorneys do not deserve this, chemists and engineers do not deserve this, teachers do not deserve this, mechanics do not deserve this ... all are EQUALLY undeserving.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #165
167. The message is loud and clear.
I write about education, teachers, because it is what I know and what I lived for over 30 years.

Others should write about the outrages perpetrated on them in "private" industry.

Education is still a public field, and I write about the way teachers are treated.

If I had to do it over again, in the present circumstances....I would never become a teacher.

Why don't you do a post about how the others are treated.

If I wanted support at DU, I would not write about teachers at all. They are not popular here, they are held in disdain.

That's sad.

Yes, your point is very clear.
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #167
187. LOL
I hope my point is clear.

All workers are valuable and should be treated with respect and dignity. An American worker is an American worker. You appear to disagree, that is unfortunate.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #187
188. I don't bother to respond.....
when the post is so far from truth. I just don't bother to read the posts anymore. Bye.
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #188
189. Was this meant to be ironic?
"I don't bother to respond....." while, in fact responding.

Your attempt at humor succeeded; you gave me a hearty laugh. Have a good one ... I'm off to dinner with friends.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-11 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #165
171. You are putting words in the OP's mouth, as he's made
it clear repeatedly in this thread and in others that he extends the outrage to all workers and professions, he's not singling out teachers and education workers for special treatment. But education is what he/she knows and what his/her experience is in and he/she is not familiar enough with the particulars of other professions to be able to write convincingly and knowingly of them.

And why does it have to be either-or? Why, when he writes about teachers, does it automatically mean that that is the only profession he cares about? Because it is not! It's very clear around here on this "democratic" site just how little teachers are truly valued. As the daughter of teachers who saw what they went through every single day for nearly forty years, I am very glad now that I did not follow in their professional footsteps. Even 25 years ago, I realized just how little teachers were valued and decided I wasn't going to deal with what they dealt with.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #161
198. That's why I've started a thread discussing the idea that Democrats
should speak out against people being treated this way in the removal from work process ANYWHERE:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
172. Sorry, I cannot understand how this is happening in the US! This is
unbelievable!
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