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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 05:49 PM
Original message
There’s a Secret Patriot Act, Senator Says
Interesting read. I highly recommend reading the full article...

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05/secret-patriot-... /

You may think you understand how the Patriot Act allows the government to spy on its citizens. Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Oregon) says it’s worse than you’ve heard.

Congress is set to reauthorize three controversial provisions of the surveillance law as early as Thursday. But Wyden says that what Congress will renew is a mere fig leaf for a far broader legal interpretation of the Patriot Act that the government keeps to itself — entirely in secret. Worse, there are hints that the government uses this secret interpretation to gather what one Patriot-watcher calls a “dragnet” for massive amounts of information on private citizens; the government portrays its data-collection efforts much differently.

“We’re getting to a gap between what the public thinks the law says and what the American government secretly thinks the law says,” Wyden tells Danger Room in an interview in his Senate office. “When you’ve got that kind of a gap, you’re going to have a problem on your hands.”
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. kick nt
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Kick!
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. as if what we already know isn't bad enough....
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. "You're going to have a problem on your hands"
Edited on Wed May-25-11 06:00 PM by gratuitous
Well, you would if there weren't quite so many folks perfectly willing to forego their allegiance to the Constitution because it's a Democrat in the White House. And there is a built-in non-accountability clause in that the courts don't want to mess with the USA PATRIOT Act, so they challenge any plaintiffs to prove that they have standing before any case can proceed. But how do you show that you have been harmed or at risk of harm if you don't know the secret provisions and interpretations of the law? Case dismissed!
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
25. Just wait till they start using the gathered information to profile 'unAmericans' to Bachman
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
27. +1
Transparency is such a comforting term. Too bad it never actually applies to those areas that truly matter.
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. So the government is secretly spying on all its citizens. So what? Only...
...a whacko liberal conspiracy theorist would have a problem with that.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
30. WHAT wacko conspiracy theorist?
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. +1
:rofl:
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TxVietVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. This is why this piece of crap should never have been allowed to pass in the first place
now it's on the verge of raging out of control.

Feel safe yet? :(
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. So. Fucking. Depressing.
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Viking 1 Donating Member (275 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Hey, why should the Patriot Act
be any different from the rest of our government? :(
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. Obama wants and believes in it, that should be enough for 100% of DUers right? nt
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. It's enough to tell me that Obama and I are not on the same side at all.
Hopefully I won't be drug-tested for being a fucking retarded professional leftist...
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
49. so we fail a drug test, big deal
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. ^
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. not a surprise, but creepy nevertheless. so what is wyden doing?
Edited on Wed May-25-11 08:29 PM by Hannah Bell
how is it legal to have secret laws?
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
41. Stay off planes, Ron.
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blackbart99 Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. no shit....
trains are no good either...ever see rubicon......?
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. The Stasi would be proud
of what the Obama administration is about to spring on the US. And not just in this one case.

It's devastating to watch this charming, erudite, immensely likeable President crush all the hope he so expertly conjured up.

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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
16. K&R
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
17. Wait, wait....don't tell me....
Some DOJ legal counsel wrote an opinion saying that this is perfectly legal.

What do I win?
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adigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
18. This bothers me, so if I wanted to not be spied on
I would live in a place that is not google-earthed yet (my house isn't,) I would buy with cash, have no cards at all, use one of those throw-away phones, not use GPS, be as self-sufficient as possible. It is harder to spy on someone who doesn't use anything electronic.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
19. Sooner or later, the thing'll be interpreted to mean We the People are ALL Enemies of the State.
The exact moment will also be classfied top secret, need-to-know basis.



Only those who have nothing to hide have nothing to worry about.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
38. I believe that's already happened in the minds of the national security state, Octafish. n/t
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
39. dupe
Edited on Thu May-26-11 11:10 AM by Beam Me Up
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CrossChris Donating Member (641 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
53. I think that was established a long time ago. Pre 9/11, W wanted FEMA to focus on domestic unrest
So their idea of an emergency wasn't something that happened to the people, but was something done by the people.
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StarburstClock Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. Doesn't stop a single dbag from twittering, facebooking, etc...
People willingly put all their personal info out there just to be "cool". All the social networking sites should have the warning "anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law, and that court of law only pertains to 2nd class peons like you gullibles. The elite are exempt".
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
21. K&R
Interesting read
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Shining Jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. K&R n/t
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. Recommend highly. For more detail on what's going on please see the current (May 23) issue
of New Yorker magazine that contains an article entitled An Enemy Of The State by Jane Mayer. An employee of the NSA is being tried for revealing BUDGET IMPROPRIETIES that were taking place in the NSA. This article is an in-depth look at what many on the 'inside' of the Intelligence/Security community fear the most about our new Security State.

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
24. knr nt
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Ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
26. There's also a Secret Government
But most have their head in the toilet about that too.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
28. Give the government an inch and they'll take a mile.
"Democracy" Your Ass...
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
29. The "driftnet" provision of the Patriot Act Amendment of '08 isn't secret, but it is universal
Edited on Thu May-26-11 06:20 AM by leveymg
Basically, NSA can legally scoop up all the communications (e-mail, phone, fax, IM) made from any location (city or area) inside the United States if there is any reason to believe ANYONE within that city or area who may be a terrorist, spy, threat to defense installations, serious criminal, etc.

There is no expectation of privacy, anymore, for anyone, anywhere inside the US, particularly for int'l calls. The Bush-Cheney Administration, and then the US Congress (including then Senator Obama) with a vote in 2008, killed the 4th Amendment's protection of communications in America.

He's dead, Jim.

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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
31. Seems as if we are getting our own little Article 58...
In the book, Gulag Archipelago, by Solzhenitsyn, he outlines the infamous Article 58.

Article 58 was as blanket charge that was very useful to the Soviet authorities.

Basically, they could charge you with anything they wanted at anytime they wished.

For example: You are walking down a street day dreaming, a police officer or even a citizen could walk up to you and ask you, "are you a good communist, comrade?" And because you had to break out of your day dream and didn't answer fast enough, the person asking the question could have you charged with being anti-soviet, anti-government for not answering fast enough.

If you made a casual statement to a fellow worker regarding Stalins mustache, that was enough to have you sent off.

Don't believe me? read the book.

Each time I see and read things regarding the degrading of our rights and privacy, I can't help but think of Article 58.

Right now, we, as a nation, have more people in prison than any other nation in the world. At what point where will that same statistic read, "we have more people in prison than we have "free". Yeah, that's hyperbole, but honestly how truly outlandish is that statement?

We are fools.
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david_vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Much of the reason why we have so many PEOPLE in prison
is that almost all of them are MEN, and incarceration is what we do here because we have no idea what to do with men, we've lost all sense of masculinity/ manhood, and America no longer cares -- yes, officially, ergo the rise of the prison industry.
When thinking about the vast numbers of incarcerated citizens, remember that the overwhelming majority of them are men, and then start asking yourself why. Why, for instance, are men far, far more likely to be sentenced to death for murder than are women who are convicted of the same charge? There's no correlation at all.

America doesn't know what to do with or about men. America fears men. America can't provide jobs for men. America warehouses men.
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
47. part of the reason for the prison population being
so large is the privatization of prisons. They are now a secure slave source for profit maximization. The prisons are will be work-camps in the future.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
33. I seem to recall that the whistleblower/repairman in san francisco some years ago said that
the spying was much worse than we were told. K&R
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. oh that's right...
I'm going to have to Google that story to re-read it.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
34. I hoped this might change
with a "constitutional scholar" in the Whitehouse.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
56. A constitutional scholar knows the constitution
Whether he uses that knowledge to defend it or circumvent and finally destroy it...

That's another matter.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. So, what are you suggesting?
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #40
57. Disgression is the essence of wisdom
Suggesting the overthrow of the government on a public website in the National Surveillance State would alarm Agent Mike.
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proReality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
37. K&R n/t
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
42. Oooooh. The *secret* secret secret secrets. What could possibly be wrong there?
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BetsysGhost Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
43. and the winner is
:redbox: TV
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
44. how can you obey a law if govt isn't disclosing what it is?
this is screwy


:crazy:
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. That's what secret "black site" prisons are for.
No explanations needed.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #44
58. Catch 22
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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
45. That's my Senator ... shout it out Sen, Wyden! thank you. nt
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FarrenH Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
46. This is why I, as a South African, hang around on DU
1. I'm a progressive and there are global items of mutual interest
2. With so many Internet servers in the USA, America's descent into a surveillance state should concern everyone on the net.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. Use more privacy / anonymity tools
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blackbart99 Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
51. Sounds like we another Wikileaks....
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
52. Wyden tells it like it is
He's my Senator.
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