Why I have mixed feelings about the Union busting that is going on now...

[WCGreen]

For eight years I worked with the democratic party here in Ohio. The labor leadership was always there with us, well, except the Police and Firefighters, they seemed to always endorse and then financially support republicans no matter what. It seems they bought into one of the first lies spread by the Right Wing that Democrats were on the side of the criminals...

And we sure did appreciate that support.

But I can't even count how many times I was approached at Union events where the rank and file would make it a point to tell me they weren't going to vote for me because I was a) killing babies, b) taking away their guns or c) were all about taxing the middle class.

The people we always supported in the relationship between labor and management could not or would not talk to their rank and file about why it was important to vote against republicans.

The GOP has always depended on wedge issue to hide the very simple fact that every time it comes down to a choice between management and labor they will always, without fail, come down on the side of management.

This was so frustrating because when the GOP was in the majority, they wouldn't even get involved with the other side because they didn't want to anger the GOP.

It was like dealing with a battered spouse.

They shipped all their jobs over seas, they have gutted the workers comp laws and are getting ready to gut the laws capitalist that require payments into Unemployment Funds.

But the guys in the labor movement still have their guns...

Remember, that is my own personal dealings with labor over an eight year period. I take my hats off to the many of the labor leaders who stood up with those who stand up for them in Columbus and Washington, often going against the wishes of their rank and file.

And even though I feel deep sympathy for what is happening to the labor movement in our country and the people who work hard for a living, I can't help but ask the question, did you really think they wouldn't come after your jobs...

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. That's not how it is where I am

Labor is pretty solid Dems.

[Citizen Worker]

6. "Labor is pretty solid dems." That's the problem and it is exactly what allows a democrat to say,

"where else you gonna go." I know, I've had it said to me. As a friend of mine says, "when is Labor going to quit sucking the dick of the democrats?"

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. True. But that's another issue.

[WCGreen]

10. the leaders are always, as I stated, well mostly, but it was the rank and file...

I talked to hundreds of members from dozens of unions over the eight years that I was working or the democratic party and, I might add, running for office.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. I have worked nearly every election phone bank going back decades

We call only union members. This year we did labor walks where we only knocked on union member doors.

And seriously, the vast majority support Democrats.

I don't disbelieve you. I just think the labor unions can be different from state to state. Ours is solid Dem but we are losing members. Numbers are way down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. You know in the middle of doing a history of labor

and many of the attitudes you saw go beyond today. They go back a long time. Rank and File (like most Americans) have been trained to believe their "betters." this is defined by those who are financially successful... Yes you and I can question whether Republicans are successful, but that is the common belief.

And this my dear is the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

The other part of that iceberg is the willfully ignorant population that don't understand how they came to get them things they have like the 40 hour week.

[Citizen Worker]

16. NB, in no small measure can the Labor hierarchy avoid a large part of the blame for the overall

decline of a once great working class institution. From the purges of left leaning Unions and individual members to the Treaty of Detroit to the absolutely mind boggling quiescence following the unilateral firing of the air traffic controllers by Reagan. After trashing the controllers organized Labor went on to act as a CIA front in Latin America under the auspices of the National Endowment for Democracy.

At one time in our history Union meetings were social gatherings for workers to talk about the topics of the day and frequently the Union leadership would invite guest speakers in to talk about politics and the economy. Not anymore. Today most Union meetings are limited to a droll report from each officer and very few minutes for "good of the order" discussion. The leadership usually sits up on a stage isolated from their members and holding them at arms length.

Until I became a member my local didn't even hold regular meetings but things are changing. We now have 2 or 3 meetings a year!

There are a few things Union leadership can do to engage the Rank and File. Local academics could be invited to give a 30 minute talk on the economy, taxes, public policy, and ask the Rank and File what they want. Central Labor Councils and/or state Labor federations could start hunting and fishing clubs so, as a friend of mine and former local Union president said, "I can talk directly to my members instead of the NRA telling them what to do."

Management tore up the Treaty of Detroit, the Labor/Capital Accord and The Deal a long time ago. It's well past the time we stood up on our feet and fought back!

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. That is part of the history

but that goes even farther than that. We have been in this fight since 1610, literally, in different forms.

But I will gladly tell a story, not identifying the union which gave it's right to strike a while ago... STOOPID. Mentioning the world strike is a firable offense.

But it is not just the unions. It is a whole slew of institutions that have betrayed the working people. I recommend for this Hedge's book

The Death of the Liberal Class

http://www.amazon.com/Death-Liberal-Class-Chris-Hedges/dp/1568586442

And what you are describing is exactly what is slowly happening. People are realizing that if we want to keep what we have... well it is time to fight. So unions are slowly getting reorganized, and internal revolts are happening. And yes it is my husband's union that sent me on this crazy search for history. I might approach the local union and see about the next meeting doing a short presentation on trickle down economics. Or for that matter a short history of the 10 hour day movement, and then the eight hour day movement.

[Hannah Bell]

30. +100

[Better Believe It]

44. What 40 hour workweek are you writing about? And anyone remember the 8 hour day?

Go tell millions of union workers who face mandatory overtime all about how the labor movement won shorter hours of work, the 40 hour work week and the 8 hour day.

They might ask: "Is that so, well how come do I have to work 12 hour days and sometimes 6 or even 7 days a week or be fired?"

Almost every job occupation, including organized ones, have mandatory overtime.

We had a standard 40 hour work week and 8 hour work day about thirty years ago.

That disappeared as union contracts were gutted, strikes were broken, work rule concessons to employer implemented and unions were busted.

In private enterprise we almost have a fully "union free environment" today with only about 7% of workers organized into unions whose officialdom over the past decade have gone along with cuts in benefits, work rules and wages!

It's hard to recruit workers to join unions or talk to them about all the great benefits they will enjoy by going union .... when at the same many union officials are going along with employer cuts in those worker benefits!

Workers didn't join and build unions in order to reduce pay, cut benefits and increase the hours of work!

Unions were and will once again be organized to stop that!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. It's a complex issue...

I agree with you ...

K&R

[Luminous Animal]

4. So you think human beings should lose job protections because you don't agree with them politically.

Nice.

[WCGreen]

8. How the hell did you get that out of what I wrote....

I never said I wasn't going to support Labor, I said that by continuing to vote for the republicans they are sealing their own fate..

[Luminous Animal]

20. "Mixed feelings" commonly means uncertainty about a person or an event...

So I read your OP as that you are uncertain about union busting... that you could go either way.

[WCGreen]

21. I have mixed feelings because of my personal experience...

But the people who continue to vote against their own best interests should know that it was their choice...

It was very frustrating to hear from all these people that they weren't going to vote for me or the other democrats because of abortion, guns and taxes...

[madrchsod]

5. my wife`s union president is a teabagger

needless to say my wife (union secretary-treasurer) has a hard time working with him.

yes there are many union people who vote against their own interests but with the attack on the service unions. the hit these members will be taking i think they will reconsider who they will vote for.

[WCGreen]

9. Once it's it's gone, it ain't coming back...

That's the way I feel...

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. OMG that's terrible

I can't even imagine.

[Hannah Bell]

31. and she's probably a plant, then. there are a lot of them. your wife

should be aware of that possibility and all it implies.

[Synnical]

7. The WSJ Totally agrees with you, not surprisingly

That is, the WSJ "Main Street" piece, not your comments.

We knew this would happen when Murdock purchased the paper.


Labor's Coming Class War

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576060092978223976.html

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[Major Hogwash]

11. Fuck, they've been fighting unions for over 50 fucking years!!

Hell, WC, my old man was fired from 2 different companies for trying to start a local union to represent the employees.

The 2nd company he worked for that fired him had hired a private investigator to follow one of the union organizers when they found out there was going to be a meeting held on the weekend. The private investigator found out where the union meeting was going to be held to organize the men the next week at work. It was going to be at a private residence of one of the employees.
So the private investigator went to that house during the meeting and took down all of the license plates on all of the cars parked within 1 block to the north and 1 block to the south of that house.

Then as the employees drove into the company parking lot the next week, they matched up all of the license plates on the cars with the numbers on their list, and they took the men in to the office -- one at a time -- and fired them.

That happened in 1961!

[WCGreen]

15. It's been horrible how they have denied workers over the years...

But, again this is from my experience and was not meant to be extrapolated, the rank and file, once they are safe in their positions, would let themselves be manipulated by the social issues spouted by republicans...

[TBF]

18. Maybe your personal experience in Ohio - it wasn't like that where I grew up in Wisconsin

The unions were strong - auto workers and paper plants - and they voted for democrats. I was born in the 60's, painted strike signs with my dad in the 70's. I can remember small business owners being republican, but all the plant families voted democrat.

[WCGreen]

22. I'm sure it was that way back in the 60's and into the 70's here in Ohio

as well...

My hands on experience was from 1992-2001...

[TBF]

25. I see, that makes much more sense. The campaigns against the

unions have been relentless and it's all about cheap labor.

[madokie]

17. Lots of reasons to not vote republiCON, labor being one of them

A friend and I got a shop we were working at to vote in the carpenters union back in the early 70's and management told Stub, (my friend) and I that they would close the place down and move across the state line but we didn't listen so we all (70-80) workers voted the union in on a Friday and when we came back to work Monday morning the company had moved lock stock and barrel. Not a fucking thing we could do either even though we had just voted in the union that previous Friday. The powers to be have been stacking the deck against the unions for a long long time now. A few more repuke administrations and there won't be any unions left.

[snot]

23. I really appreciate this insight into what's gone wrong.

I think more info, study, is needed. E.g., to what extent did conservative control of the corporate media help direct, shape the assumptions and focus of union leadership and workers?

[TBF]

26. Well you could certainly do a thesis on that -

but as far as convincing anyone on DU I think most of this are there already. We've seen first hand what has happened the past 30 years.

[old mark]

24. Many times the Democratic Party has let labor down, too...It is not too smart

to run against one of the groups that has been reliable supporters for many decades, but the Democratic Party did that in 2010-ask Bill Clinton about that, too. Also, the Democrats were very foolish in their continued support of gun control in the face of reality...Many people still believe the Democrats WILL confiscate all guns.
IMO, that one issue was responsible for much of the GOP's gains in November...not that the Democrats WOULD confiscate guns, but they never bothered to deny it and it has ben an anchor around their neck for many years.

As a former AFSCME Steward, I KNOW many of our Democratic members(Including me) own guns, and many would not vote for Democrats on that issue alone.


mark

[TBF]

27. Thank you Mark - very important comment. I have just learned

from a friend in California that their new governor Jerry Brown has been abysmal to the unions despite their continued support of him.

Guns and Abortion - hot button issues. When push comes to shove I would probably outlaw the guns and make abortion a medical procedure (as it is in Canada - even though I'm not crazy about it myself), but I don't vote on single issues either.

[old mark]

32. I'm a lifelong democrat and a long time gun owner, and I would never vote for ANY

republican, either, but some people feel like they are making a point to the Democrats by voting for republicans...I'm just not sure what that point is and why the rest of us have to suffer through republican "government" for someone elses "point"...


mark

[Hannah Bell]

33. one of my relatives voted against obama because he'd heard he was going to confisticate

guns. he heard it through a professional retirees association.

and yes, it's funny that the dems don't make clear & repeated denials of such rumors.

[benEzra]

39. Taking the pro-bans language out of the party platform would be a good start. (n/t)

[Hannah Bell]

43. why don't you link me

[benEzra]

45. Here:

http://www.democrats.org/about/party_platform

We recognize that the right to bear arms is an important part of the American tradition, and we will preserve Americans' Second Amendment right to own and use firearms. We believe that the right to own firearms is subject to reasonable regulation, but we know that what works in Chicago may not work in Cheyenne. We can work together to enact and enforce commonsense laws and improvements - like closing the gun show loophole, improving our background check system, and reinstating the assault weapons ban, so that guns do not fall into the hands of terrorists or criminals. Acting responsibly and with respect for differing views on this issue, we can both protect the constitutional right to bear arms and keep our communities and our children safe.

The problem is the bait-and-switch language regarding "assault weapons", aka the most popular non-automatic civilian rifles in the United States. More Americans own modern-looking rifles than hunt, and fighting to ban them is as counterproductive as trying to outlaw hunting.

You may, in fact, support banning the most popular rifles on the basis of handgrip shape, or turning the clock back on magazine capacity to the 1850's, and that's your prerogative. But that is, in fact, the source of the "Dems'll-take-yer-gunz" meme since the early 1990's, and the party would be far better off without it.

Given that rifles are among the least misused weapons in the United States (accounting for fewer murders than knives, clubs, and shoes/bare hands, never mind handguns and shotguns), fighting to ban the most popular rifles is just nonsensical.

[Hannah Bell]

46. i see. not a ban on guns en toto.

[benEzra]

47. The Religious Right isn't trying to ban abortion en toto either, just elective ones.

The Moral Majority doesn't want to ban books en toto, just the ones they find offensive. Focus on the Family doesn't want to revoke ALL rights for the GLBT community, just the ones they don't like. The Bush Administration didn't want to torture everybody, just people they accused of being terrorists. And so on.

If one advocates for banning the most popular civilian guns, one should not be surprised when gun owners object to proposed new bans, even if those bans don't include all guns. As a gun owner, I don't personally care if I'm "allowed" to own a high-powered deer rifle or a skeet shotgun, since (like the majority of U.S. gun owners) I neither hunt nor shoot skeet/clays.

[Doctor_J]

50. You're catapulting the bullshit

...Many people still believe the Democrats WILL confiscate all guns.

Some Dems support waiting periods, databases, etc. If the idiots who listen to hate radio all day think that this means ...Many people still believe the Democrats WILL confiscate all guns , it's the Limbeciles' problem, not the Dems.

[undeterred]

28. I know people in labor unions who complain about their union dues

and vote Republican because they hate the union... even though it provides them better benefits and job security than anyone else they know. Not always the brightest people in the world.

[Scout]

38. sounds exactly like my brother-in-law, the electrician n/t

[oldlib]

29. The Democratic Party

must always support the Labor Unions and the Labor Unions should support the Democrats. I, along with you, am saddened that the police and firemen always support the GOOP and I suspect that it is the gun issue that is the cause.

[Imajika]

34. Well, on at least one issue...

...the cure is simple. Democrats should continue dumping gun control. The working class has never supported that and it's a clear loser of an issue.

The Democratic party has mostly divorced itself from the gun control crowd, but it will take a few more years to finish clearing up all the damage we inflicted upon ourselves by being associated with the gun grabbers.

On the other two issues, it is pretty clear we have the majority behind us by being pro choice and supporting progressive taxation. There will always be some blue collar types that get fooled by the Faux propaganda, but we are on the right side of public opinion overall by being pro choice and supporting higher taxes on the wealthy - virtually every poll shows this.

But gun control, yeah, that was a complete loser of an issue and it is fantastic that we've now mostly moved away from being associated with it.

[TBF]

37. I agree -

I'd rather see folks vote for economic policies that would benefit themselves - if the gun control needs to be dropped then so be it.

[lunatica]

35. Soon we will work 7 days a week at less than minimum wage

Yeah, unions are such a burden.

:sarcasm:

[WCGreen]

42. No one here, as far as I could tell, said that Unions are a burden...

My point was that the people in the unions vote against their own interests.

I don't know how much clearer I could make that...

[Doctor_J]

51. But they can go home to their guns after their 18-hr shifts

They won't be able to afford to go to a doctor, but they'll have their guns.

[Edweird]

53. NAFTA, Rhode Island, the "cadillac tax" - Dems aren't exactly making a good case for themselves.

Blue Collar/Union workers are taking it fro m both sides.

[pipoman]

36. There is no longer a 'labor party'

the Dems leadership have been taken completely over by the self proclaimed urban intellectuals. In this we have allowed our party to be identified with the failure of gun control to this day. It is still a plank in our platform as of 2008. This party must remove that plank and replace it with a solid affirmation of the relatively new interpretations of the second amendment handed down by SCOTUS. That would take that argument off the table once and for all.

Remember it was our own party who fucked labor with leaderships overwhelming support for the very trade agreements that most working people view as the thief of their collective bargaining power and, in fact, their jobs. Our party leaders stood shoulder to shoulder with the thugs to 'fast track' NAFTA and GATT through against the will of the vast majority of US Americans, and the vast, vast majority of labor. Well now are they going to cry after they screwed labor ruthlessly? Apparently.

[texshelters]

40. The basic thesis here is flawed. Just because some unions are disfunctional...

doesn't mean unionization is a bad idea. Most union people I meet have done more for American workers than all the Congress members put together and just because you know the assholes doesn't invalidate unions per se.

If Hoffa was the only union leader in history, than yes, unions would suck. You can't just an organizing model by a few ignorant bastards.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[WCGreen]

41. Again, I was not trying to extrapolate my experience to a universal norm...

I was just recounting my experience, which is probably more than most people who are posting on this board.

And god I know you will come back and say you were friends with Joe Hill.

I don't know how much clearer I could make it that this was my experience over several years and meeting and interacting with probably over 1,000 labor leaders and rank and file members over a period when I was a candidate as well as an official in the democratic party.

[texshelters]

54. I didn't know Joe HIll but if all you met were gun totting union facists

I suggest you get out more and broaden your horizons.

And yes, I was recounting my experience too. Sorry yours was not so good, but to use it to promote union busting is unreasonable and ignorant. How about banning those people from unions? Did you ever think that perhaps it was the people and not unions per se that are the problem?

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[Edweird]

48. I see. What are the D's doing to protect our jobs? Remember Obama's stance on Rhode Island?

The "cadillac tax"? Free trade? "Immigration reform"? I don't see much daylight between either party.

[Odin2005]

49. The leadership of the mainstream unions are corrupt and in bed with the Capitalist elites.

We need to return to the radicalism of old, when the Capitalists FEARED labor's power.

[upi402]

52. I blame the media

They convince the chickens to vote for Colonel Sanders. People are easy to fool.

Until folks have it burned into their consciousness that TV News is corporate propaganda, we are screwed. It really IS class warfare.