A few words on the somewhat frenzied attacks on Christians / select Christians here. . .

[Skip Intro]

Everyone is guaranteed the right to believe or not believe what he/she wishes regarding religion. Why ridicule those who exercise that right?

I mean, one can certainly scoff, but DU has, imho, gone to extremes to make fun of certain people for their beliefs, and I just find it a bit beneath us.

I wonder how many threads would be going, even spiking the greatest page, were the word "Muslim" or "Jew" or "Wiccan" substituted for "Christian?" My guess is most of those would have zero recs, many replies - the op being chastised for his/her intolerance - and eventually be locked.

Tolerant? Big Tent? I'd like to think these descriptions apply to most here at DU, as well as our Democratic party. Unfortunately, it appears we are very selective in our tolerance.

on edit: spelling correction

[RandomThoughts]

1. It shows more how media sets the cultural narrative.

Anyone talking about the theft on wall street, the medicare issue, or that I am due beer and travel money.

It is so easy for people to get off topic.

And honestly using a macro that is as loaded as 'rapture' has an effect on many that learned that doctrine.

So even if they just repeat the word a few hundred times, they fire off the loaded info for those macros in people.





It is like having 2 year election cycles. If you constantly talk about what will happen, or what people will do, then you don't talk about what is actually happening now.

Things like the debt of beer and travel money that is due.

[pintobean]

2. The self-righteous never see their own hypocrisy

[demosincebirth]

10. On both sides.

[defendandprotect]

51. The Founders didn't mention "both sides" ... they separted Church from State .. wisely so --

and left all Americans with the right to free conscience and free thought based on

that privilege --

and with the right to challenge and question religion and religious beliefs --

Do you want it some other way?

[bobbolink]

257. So, the "Founders" said "Make fun of everyone you wish.. it is your right"?

I don't recall anywhere in Jefferson's writing him saying "Be as insulting as you wish to be.. it is the American Way."

Yes, it would be nice to have another way... it is called CIVILITY.

People SHOULD be capable of expressing their differences in a civil manner.

NOt that we expect to see that on DU.

[bobthedrummer]

127. Yep. n/t

[Skip Intro]

41. +1 nt

[Ian David]

3. Stupid transcends religious boundaries. n/t

[seabeyond]

4. good post skip... thanks. nt

[Jack Sprat]

5. Although you make a good point and you do,

some things just defy common sense. This rapture thing is one of them. I stopped attending church years ago, with a few exceptions just to see if churches were still hell bent on becoming political parties. Yet, I still pray to God the Father, Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. So am I a true Christian in the eyes of Christ which is all that matters? Well, some would say no. Some might say yes. The only thing that is important is what Christ thinks, as I see it.

[AmBlue]

241. I use to teach Sunday school, but now do not attend...

...and am very uncomfortable in a church setting anymore, precisely because of the vitriol and judgmental-ness and even flat-out hatred that I see coming from people that call themselves Christian (this includes members of my own family). Skip's point would be well taken but for one glaring omission, which is the fact that the religious groups he mentions are not on equal footing in this country. Christians are by far the largest religious group, while Muslims, Jews and the other religions mentioned are much smaller in numbers, so consequently are the minority. My personal experience when I was younger and in the Christian church was that they would proselytize with "gentle persuasion." Now we see Christians aggressively-- and politically-- engaged in trying to make America into a "Christian" nation and imposing their beliefs on everyone else by manipulating our laws at the state and national levels.

It is particularly frightening that so many subscribe to a Christian faith that doesn't respect future generations by their denial of climate change, or because of blind faith in the Rapture, or a self-righteous and pervasive belief that the end times are near. Most Christians I know will blindly sign on to anything that is "R"-endorsed even when it's to their own detriment. Because of their sheer numbers this lack of critical thinking and Tea-hadist lunacy that they engage in is nothing short of toxic to our culture and to the future of this country.

So, what I'm saying is that these mega-churches and the mega-Christians they are breeding seem to me to becoming more of a national cult that are engaged in a very dangerous and phenomenally successful power grab, with our government feeding their frenzy with faith-based org funding. The worst part of all of this is that they will NEVER feel they have enough power, and they will NEVER, EVER stop trying to seize ever greater power. All of that said, it's really difficult to defend a group that is, in effect, being "the bully," while they do not respect the rights of other Americans to worship (or not), and to love and live as they please-- as our Constitution guarantees.

p.s. Yes, I know there there still good Christians who are critical-thinkers and support progressive principles, but I'm sad to say I believe you may be among the smallest minority religious group of all.

[Bragi]

255. "some things just defy common sense"

Everything associated with religion -- belief in transcendent spirits, belief in afterlife, etc. -- defies common sense.

[Generic Brad]

6. I am tolerant up to a point

People can believe whatever they want. Faith or lack of faith is a very personal matter. But when someone starts attacking me for not sharing their belief, the gloves come off.

I have had many Christians gleefully tell me I am going to burn in hell because they have decreed I am not as pious as they are. Recently I had a Christian tell me I am ineligible for the rapture because I work in banking and we all know that Jesus hates money changers. Come on. This has become intensely personal and judgmental.

I refuse to kiss up to deluded individuals who can only feel better about themselves if they imagine the rest of us suffering unimaginable, painful horrors for all of eternity. Quite honestly, I feel very sad for those individuals. When they wake up Sunday and find nothing has happened some of them will be devastated to realize they are not better than the rest of us after all.

[Zoeisright]

14. Plus one billion

The Christians I know are hateful and bigoted. I stay as far away from them as possible.

[coalition_unwilling]

82. Jesus 'hates' bankers, i.e., the money-changers, is really code words

for anti-semitism. Christians excel at grafting themselves onto Judaism but being anti-semitic at the same time.

[WolverineDG]

121. According to whom?

I've never heard that. Certainly was never taught that in church.

dg

[coalition_unwilling]

136. If you're unaware of the significant currents of anti-semitism, both covert and

overt, in Christianity throughout history, my telling you about it now will not convince you.

When so-called Christians say, "Jesus hates bankers," they're summoning an old anti-semitic trope that originated in the Middle Ages and has persisted and come down to us through the ages. By the time Shakespeare wrote "The Merchant of Venice," the trope was already well established. Christian rules forbidding usury and Jewish law that did not forbid the same meant that Jews could and did function as bankers during the Middle Ages.

Edited for clarity and garbled syntax.

[WolverineDG]

147. Believe it or not, there have been quite a few centuries & religious movements

between the Middle Ages & today. :eyes:

I have never been in a church where anti-Semitism has been taught in Sunday School or preached from the pulpit & would walk out of one that did.

dg

[coalition_unwilling]

150. OK. Kudos to you. But consider this; when fundies like Pat

Robertson and his like cozy up to Israel and Jews, you may be thinking to yourself that surely the fundies and their theology can't be all that anti-semitic, can they\it?

Except their end-times bullshit teleology requires a Greater Israel be established from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean (presumably exterminating all the Palestinians who currently inhabit the West Bank and Gaza in the process). And, when the End Times come, only 144,000 Jews will be 'saved.' The rest of the world's Jews will burn in everlasting torment and suffer excruciating agonies. Hence my use of the 'covert' in describing anti-Semitism in some strains of today's Christianity.

[WolverineDG]

212. I know precisely why they cozy up to Israel

& it's not because they are not bigots. I've been telling my Jewish friends that for decades.

Save the lecture for some fundie who doesn't "get it."

:eyes:

dg

[stranger81]

208. Someplace in the Gospel of Matthew, I think.

I heard this old chestnut in my church growing up, too. Evangelical Free.

[Taverner]

243. Read the wiki article on "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

Then you'll understand what we mean

[Taverner]

242. + infinity

[elocs]

7. Ridiculing religion is a proud pastime here at DU, especially Christianity.

This is spite of the fact that likely thousands of DUers are practicing Christians to one degree or another. Such actions would never be tolerated here about any other group, but the broad brush gets to be liberally applied to Christians.

[demosincebirth]

11. +1

[Lars39]

12. Is DU the only place you have ever had your religion questioned?

[elocs]

85. I have no religion, but that does not mean I am incapable of respecting the beliefs of others.

I can certainly respectfully disagree with them, but that does not mean I need to ridicule the beliefs of all when it may be only some with whom I have issue.

[Zhade]

97. It's special pleading to intimate all irrational beliefs should be respected.

I don't support unwarranted belief in ANY piece of irrational thinking, including religion as a whole. As such, I can't and won't afford any such beliefs respect. It would be dishonest.

I fully support respecting everyone's RIGHT to believe whatever they wish. That in no way entitles anyone to automatic deference to or respect of their beliefs. I hold the same true of my own conclusions on reality -- no one has to respect my way of thinking. I don't understand why people think granting unearned respect for what one sees as ludicrous is a positive thing. In my view, that stifles honest debate.

[jtown1123]

248. +1000

[Lars39]

100. DU may be the only place a lot of religious people are ever challenged...

and the only place others feel free enough to speak out against religion. I think part of what we're seeing is backlash against oppressive religious actions, ie those trying to turn the country into a theocracy. In some pockets of the country it is basically already a theocracy with a very thin veneer of democracy.

[Warren DeMontague]

161. There are a lot of people who like to have temper tantrums when Atheists don't stay in the closet

Seriously. It's like homophobia; "I don't care, I just don't want it in my face". :eyes:

People who have no problem saying things like "Jesus loves you" to total strangers will bleat and whine over bigoted, intolerant statements like "I don't believe in God"

[urgk]

140. What an interesting question.

I'd like to see a poll to that effect.

[murielm99]

13. Very true.

[aquart]

15. Ever wonder why that is?

Because, in this part of the world, you don't get murdered for being Christian. You don't get your house burned (with or without you in it) for being Christian. But people who are NOT Christian have been treated to your wonderful Christian behavior and find ourselves getting a little nervous, looking around for ropes, knives, accelerants, when you start cracking your jokes and making your thoughtful comments about what's wrong with the rest of us.

Except for Ireland, God bless it, Christians haven't been killing other Christians in most places for over a century maybe longer, maybe two or three.

But all the rest of us have been fair game. So unimpressed by martyrs who don't get martyred.

[LAGC]

182. "Christians haven't been killing other Christians in most places for over a century."

Oh? And I guess WWI and WWII were just exceptions to the rule?

Or were the Germans not "real" Christians?

[LibertyFox]

196. Since when was either side fighting for god?

That requires an insane amount of historical revisionism to see either side fighting in the name of christ.

One side was fighting for the ultimate ascendancy of the racial state, the other was fighting to stop them.

[LAGC]

202. Uh...

Need I really say more?

[rug]

210. I wondered about that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/16/world/middleeast/16egypt.html?_r=1&ref=religionandbelief

[Union Scribe]

220. No, it's just because people can be anonymous douchebags online

and hate whomever they wish. Here it's Christians and other forms of hatred are not allowed. Elsewhere, like conservative sites, it's Muslims and hatred of Christians would be banned, etc etc. Every little chip on every little shoulder has a corner of the internet to let prejudices and bigotries loose.

[kwassa]

262. Great observation.

[OhioChick]

22. I wholeheartedly agree n/t

[Skip Intro]

28. Exactly. Evidently, even pointing this out bothers some.nt

[defendandprotect]

49. Are you asking for a protected status for religion here?

Rather, it should be treated as any other subject here and if you think

something is out of line ALERT on it -- !!


However, there is no protected status for religious beliefs -- and this is

after all a debating website -- a public arena.


Every American has the right to question and challenge religious beliefs --

especially once brought into the town square.

[bobbolink]

260. .

:rofl:

[cleanhippie]

50. Bullshit.

The belief that a man was literally resurrected from the dead, defying ALL the laws of physics and laws of the known universe, without ever having been witnessed by anyone in over 2000 years, with NO evidence to support that ANY of those events ever took place, IS cause for derision.

Holding beliefs that have no basis in reality is NOT "like any other group" here on DU, unless you count the anti-vaxxers, who also get derided for holding beliefs not based in reality.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

[truebrit71]

251. Amen!

:evilgrin:

;-)

[defendandprotect]

53. Is the Bible also a "broad brush" -- ?

What of its alleged attacks on women and homosexuals -- Jews -- ?

Maybe it's time to let go of those violent writings and attacks on others?

[Lucian]

64. Oh the poor christians!!!11111!

:eyes:

:nopity:

[Sequoia]

180. Show them the lions and they will stop their whimpering.

[immoderate]

90. What other religious appelation is a synonym for "good."

Christian dominance fostered arrogance. Perhaps it's inevitable.

--imm

[treestar]

149. It is the largest religion in the US

It's not a minority. So we can handle it. Like white privilege or gender privilege.

[Kajsa]

188. +2

n/t

[Taverner]

244. Stop being such a victim

Seriously, the one thing I hate from any religion is this idea that somehow they're 'persecuted'

Yes, there is the occasional beating over this religion or that, but at the core, there is no persecution of Christians in America.

Want to see what real persecution is like? Go to China. Go to Saudi Arabia where you can't even have a church

*THAT* is persecution

Not being told they can't pray loudly at a town square, threatening hellfire and brimstone to anyone who isn't that person...

[Fumesucker]

8. Muslims, Jews and Wiccans just aren't heavily represented in America

Christians come in for a lot of ragging because they deal out a hell of a lot of crap (as a group) in America.

That poor atheist high school kid in Alabama is getting death threats and it's not from atheists, Jews, Muslims or Wiccans.

His horrendous crime? He wanted his school to follow long established Federal law.

Then you have the fact that the more often someone goes to church, the more likely they are to support torture.

Yes, there are many good people who are also Christians, but so many of you stay mute in the face of the crazy Christians and leave much of the heavy lifting in combating the whackadoodles to those who do not share your faith, like the atheist kid in Alabama. Couldn't some non-fundie Christian have entered a complaint about the sectarian prayer at the graduation? I can assure you that there are *far* more Christians than there are atheists in Alabama.

A lot of us non religious are really weary of endlessly fighting the crazy fundies and it ends up coming out as snark. It's not something to be proud of but it's a reaction to the stress a lot of us non Christians feel.

For all practical purposes, the non religious in the USA have zero political representation, virtually all the legislators and executives we vote for are Christians and yet Christians will not ever elect an atheist in this country.

You have all the political power in this country and yet you complain over a little harmless snark on an internet forum.



Edited for clarity.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. Well done.

:thumbsup:

[A HERETIC I AM]

19. POW

PANG! outta the park

[RainDog]

20. what you said

and people who are offended can use hide thread or can ignore someone.

[Skip Intro]

29. That is a two way street, you know? nt

[RainDog]

66. LOL

Yes, I am quite aware of that option and I use it.

oh...is your objection that someone posted a difference of opinion on this thread?

LOLOLOL. If you posted this with the thought that no one who disagreed with your opinion should post here - well, that's not reality-based thinking either, is it?

Have a wonderful day.

[Mariana]

23. A little harmless snark? No, it isn't, it's frenzied attacks!!!

Well, somewhat frenzied attacks. Whatever the hell that means.

If what happens here on DU is "frenzied attacks", I wonder what the OP calls what's being done to that student.

[Skip Intro]

24. Jews aren't heavily represented in America?

Hmmm.

As for the rest of your post, I'm in agreement that it is wrong for you to be ridiculed for your beliefs. I merely point out the apparent hypocrisy in, on the one hand, defending the right to, and demanding tolerance and respect for, some religious views, while on the other hand, pointing fingers and laughing at others for their religious views.

[riderinthestorm]

32. No, Jews are a mere 2.1% of the US population and thus qualify as a minority. Your slip is showing.

And I would stipulate that the vast majority of posts that you would deem "pointing fingers and laughing" at religion are done by atheists and agnostics who don't have any religious beliefs which means they aren't being hypocrites at all but probably are more true to their inner morality of never lying to themselves or others, than any ostensible Christian (Jew, Wiccan, Buddhist etc.) by speaking up about what they see as magical thinking.

I ask again, are the Rapture Ready Christians who believe tomorrow is the end to be spared from DU commentary and critique? How about Christian Fred Phelps and gang? Are you the arbiter of whose beliefs must be shielded from scrutiny? And who gave you that power?

[Fumesucker]

33. Jews are about 2.2% of the population of the USA..

Non religious are approaching 15% these days..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Religions_of_American_adults

That you are able to equate ridicule on an internet forum between mostly adults with death threats issued against a high school student says a lot about your (lack of) perspective.

[Skip Intro]

37. I'm not the one who equated those two, my friend. nt

[Fumesucker]

44. Your words verbatim..

"I'm in agreement that it is wrong for you to be ridiculed for your beliefs."

You're right, you didn't equate death threats with ridicule, you simply ignored the death threats altogether.

When it comes to religion, DU is sort of a mirror image of the US as a whole, atheists and other non religious are much more heavily represented here than in the general population.

What's interesting is that when Christians get the slightest taste of what it's like to be a non religious person in the USA when they log onto DU some of them complain bitterly.

It's rather like "reverse racism", you take umbrage that a despised minority dares to act here on DU like the Christian majority does out there in real life.

The difference here is that it's just words, out in the real world it is often more than that.

About fifteen years ago I put one of those Darwin Fish symbols on my truck, it was vandalized in parking lots three times over the course of a few months, I took the symbol off and voila', no more vandalism.

Somewhere around every third car here has some sort of Christian symbol on it, cross, fish, rapture ready, it has never even occurred to me to vandalize someone's vehicle because it has a Christian symbol and yet the lone Darwin Fish drove some Christians to enough rage to ruin the paint job on my pretty new truck three fucking times.

[AlabamaLibrul]

27. And boom goes the dynamite. Spot on nt

[hfojvt]

42. that Federal law is not that long established

In fact, the opposite was true for much of America's history. As the Oxford Companion to SCOTUS writes "from the time public education began to spread in the 1820s and 1830s until after WWII, most public elementary and secondary schools in America included daily Bible reading and prayer."

And that was perfectly constitutional because of the 7-0 decision of Barron v. Baltimore in 1830.

Then suddenly SCOTUS decided in 1947 (Everson v. Board of Education) that the 14th Amendment, ratified in 1868 meant that Bible reading and prayer were no longer allowed in school. (I bet if they had known that in 1868, they would have modified the amendment with something like "note to the future - this Amendment in no way prohibits Bible reading and prayer in the public schools")

Wham, a huge change in American life, not because of any Federal Law or amendment to the Constitution or vote of the people. The only vote was by the court, a vote of 5-4.

That was not a popular decision. It was not democratically decided. Oxford also says "Recent polls suggest that a large majority of Americans still favor prayer in the public schools, as they have since polling began on the question."

So, it is kinda strange to expect people to insist on the enforcement of what they see as an unjust law forced on them by an unrepresentative government.

Also, to say that "You (Christians) have all the political power in this country." does not make any sense. Liberal Christians certainly do not want the election of people like George W. Bush and Sam Brownback. Many of us would gladly vote for an atheist over those two examples of faux-Christians.

"Harmless snark" is in the eye of the beholder. Other people would not accept the same "harmless snark" directed at them.

[Fumesucker]

45. 1947 was over sixty years ago, before I was born..That's nearly three generations.

Death threats trump snark.

When people start issuing death threats to Christians here on DU I'll grant you the equivalency.

[cordelia]

83. What about death wishes?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1146567#1146571

[hfojvt]

113. Well, it did not all happen in 1947

People tried for years to get around Everson. They tried "non denominational prayers". Nope, SCOTUS ruled in 1962 Engel v. Vitale that non-denominational prayers were not allowed either. And they re-affirmed that in Abington v. Schempp in 1963. Oxford writes that "Over the years, the Court, using a range of reasons, has gradually expanded the ban on prayer and Bible reading in classrooms to include other practices and other school locations."

So, it seems, to some people to be a case of The People v. SCOTUS.

And sorry, I still don't see the validity of a double standard where "some snark is bigotry and disallowed" while "other snark should get a pass".

As for death threats, and threats of violence. The fact is, that we all face that in the real world, even Christians, even in the USA.

[Fumesucker]

118. So you are in favor of absolute democracy then?

Where 50% + 1 gets to do anything they wish?

[hfojvt]

137. No, but I am not in favor of a system

where the votes of 9 get to trump the votes of 90%. If something was constitutional for 160 years, then it should remain constitutional UNTIL the constitution is amended.

Even Griswold v. Connecticut. That case overturned a really stupid law from 1879 that "made it illegal to use any drug, article, or instrument to prevent conception". Even in 1965, most people in Connecticut were probably breaking that law. My parents were. They got married in 1957 and didn't want to have kids right away (but they lived in South Carolina, not in Connecticut).

Still, if that law was Constitutional when it was passed, and was Constitutional for 86 years, then it should have remained constitutional unless the Constitution had been changed in some way in those 86 years.

The law should have been thrown out, but it should have been thrown out by the voters of Connecticut through the legislative process.

But on the other hand, I am thinking I should sue the city of Topeka for their ridiculous law saying that I cannot keep my dogs in my car and for threatening to kidnap my dogs when I did so.

But what do you bet it was the liberals of Topeka who want Big Brother to prevent people from "abusing" their animals like this?

[Fumesucker]

139. "The liberals of Topeka"...

Yeah, both of them supported this law.

:rofl:

Jim Crow was overturned by the Supreme Court, I grew up under Jim Crow and still live down here, there is no doubt in my mind that if the Supremes hadn't overturned Jim Crow it would still be the law here.

Do you think the Supremes should not have interfered with the Jim Crow laws?

Keep in mind Jim Crow was extremely popular with the majority of the population in those states that had such laws.

[RainDog]

198. the person's argument is, basically, the tyranny of the majority

and no respect for the rights of minorities.

there is nothing liberal about such an argument.

[blondeatlast]

213. Dude, there's 12 of 'em--and they all are related to me.

I'm not convinced I'm not joking, either! :rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

183. Wow. So you're not only in favor of mandatory school prayer, you want Griswold overturned?

Jesus H. Fucking Particular Christ on a Pogo Stick.

[trotsky]

240. Kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it? n/t

[LeftishBrit]

229. Wow. Where does that end?

Do you feel the same way about Brown vs Board of Education (and there was a LOT of hostility to that)?

[RainDog]

199. and the context - 1947 - after the extermination of Jews in "Christian" Europe

after people in this nation saw the harm from one group that claimed they bore the mantle of god (God Mit Uns) could do - the genocide that was the culmination of a long, long history of persecution of those of other or no faiths among those who claim both Catholicism and Protestantism as their creeds.

think about this.

this person is complaining b/c the Supreme Court, after the world saw pictures of bodies starved to death, eaten alive by disease, whose goods and dental fixtures were harvested because they were dehumanized by the majority population... this person thinks this nation should not respect the rights of minorities in regard to religion.

freaking incredible.

[defendandprotect]

54. Like most other liberal issues, Democrats have been silent on this one ...

leaving citizens to hear only one side of this issue --

Even other religions don't want prayer back in school --

but what everyone should be asking themselves is -- with church attendance

allegedly so high -- what is organized patriarchal religion worried about?

Well, let's see --

The Vatican has written off Canada and America and is seeking their new fortunes

in China and Africa -- !!

Why -- because when people have the freedom given to them by separation of church

and state -- democracy -- and they have the right to free thought and free

conscience, they tend to let go of the "middle men" to god and embrace a different

kind of spirituality.

What does this mean for the middle men -- ?

It means it is essential for Churches to gain government acceptance and acknowledgment --

and one primary way to do that is via public education. Religion's absence from our

public schools undermines not only organized patriarchal religion, but what it actually

underpins -- patriarchy!

[shimmergal]

98. A good post!

You're quite right about the impact of religion's presence (or absence) in public schools.

I've noticed, in my granddaughter's classes, the role of Martin Luther King, Jr. in fighting for civil rights and, in fact, equitable treatment of all people, is given a lot of attention. Which is all to the good. (It just grabs my attention because I attended elementary school even before King was in the picture.) But I do wonder, how do you teach King's role in the nation's history without referring to his religious roots? I think a sensitive teacher could do so, even to early elementary kids, but maybe not without stirring up ugly reactions from some parents on both sides of the divide.

'Course my daughter seethes every now and then when the fourth-grader brings home some of her social studies material. We figure it came thru the sieve of the Texas schoolbook selection process before it ended up here. Paragraphs which subtly disparage Thomas Jefferson's contributions, for example, or most recently, a sort of paean to the post-Civil War industrial revolution in America. So that faction is getting in their licks, even if more subtly.

[defendandprotect]

101. Thank you -- and thanks for your very interesting post ---

Of course, religion has always been a tool in patriarchy's tool box --

They used the Bible and Christianity to teach enslaved Africans to passively

accept "pie in the sky when you die."

MLK, Jr. simply used the same tool against them --


Agree re the text books -- fortunately your family is aware of what's going on -- !!


:)

[RainDog]

69. so you think it's unjust for Christians to have to respect other beliefs in govt

interesting perspective.

especially since you are calling on pre-civil war, pre-emancipation of women, pre-Darwin era scientific publication as your justification.

your argument makes the case that Christians need to be opposed at every turn because, in order for them to justify their desire to force their religion down others' throats, they have to cite history from a time when minorities were enslaved, women were treated as second-class citizens and science was just on the verge of understanding how life evolved on earth.

To me, your pov makes you an enemy of democracy, human rights and rational thinking.

[hfojvt]

116. your argument makes the case

that the battle is liberals vs. Christianity.

That is gonna be a losing argument at the polls in this country.

Othr than that, I am not sure what you are talking about. I described some history, and how some people, perhaps many people, view that history. I am not sure how that gives me a point of view, other than you seem to be going around looking for "enemies of democracy, human rights, and rational thinking" that you can do battle with. Your own rational thinking is not expressing itself very clearly here.

[RainDog]

193. LOL

okay. you cite the early 1800s as a time that matters now to xtians who want to force others to listen to their beliefs in the public square and then want to claim such remarks don't look like some conservative yearning for the days when women and blacks knew their places...

well, try that argument out on others and see how many people find it a cogent and compelling one.

I have never heard ONE liberal argue for a return to the days before slavery and suffrage so that they and other liberal christians can pray in public. what total bullshit for you to even attempt to claim such am idea has broad liberal support.

please, tho, do a poll here and just ask the liberal christians how many of them find the 1800s a time that engenders longing and a wish to return to that sort of religious coercion. please.

my rational thinking was expressing itself just fine.

[Arugula Latte]

106. Who is stopping you people from reading your Bibles and praying?! NO ONE

It doesn't have to be done on public time, though, you know? There are lots of hours in the day. So spare me your silly little pity party.

[hfojvt]

117. much of the public thinks it should be

You know, the taxpayers, who pay for those schools.

[Arugula Latte]

119. So I guess you'd be fine if the Koran were read every day in school & the kids bowed to Mecca

several times a day

[hfojvt]

130. "Righteousness does not consist in whether you face towards the East

or the West. The righteous man is he who believes in God and the Last Day, in the angels and the Book and the prophets; who, though he loves it dearly, gives away his wealth to kinfolk, to orphans, to the helpless, to the traveller in need and to beggars, and for the redemption of captives; who attends to his prayers and renders the alms levy; who is true to his promises and steadfast in trial and adversity and in times of war. Such are the true believers; such are the God fearing." Sura 2: 176

"Indeed, those that surrender themselves to God and do good works shall be rewarded by their lord: they shall have nothing to fear or to regret." Sura 2: 111

This translation says "God" instead of Allah, so I don't know how they feel about that. Some fundies claim that Allah is an old moon god, but the standard claim of The Prophet is that Allah is the same as Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus. The one, we, in the west, usually call just 'God'.

[Arugula Latte]

132. Lol!

:rofl:

:hi:

[Solomon]

256. Then perhaps they should teach science and evolution in Sunday

School classes at church.

[RainDog]

195. xtians are not the only ones who pay taxes

another totally asinine remark - wow -

people like you encourage me to recognize that you can be given no quarter because you will abuse it and then claim you're justified because you pay taxes - as tho no one else does.

your arguments are not liberal ones at all. you may try to put on the mantel of liberalism, but your arguments are straight from the religious right's playbook - nothing at all liberal about them.

if you want to pray in school - go to and send your children to religious schools - and don't expect other taxpayers to fund your indoctrination camps.

[Mariana]

211. It's not true that no one may pray in school.

It is a lie. Students, teachers, other employees, and visitors can legally pray in public school now. If the school has a moment of silence, they can do it then. They may gather in groups to pray if they wish to, before and after school and during breaks, and they may also pray individually at those times. Of course, even while students are in class they can pray; as long as they're discreet about it, who's going to know except them and their god? So, private, voluntary prayer in school is just fine. That is as it should be.

However, they don't get to be disruptive with it, they don't get to make anyone else listen to it who doesn't want to, and they don't get to pressure others to participate. Since those are the things that a lot of them want to do, they are understandably unhappy with the way things are now.

[Warren DeMontague]

162. Poster you're arguing with doesn't agree with SCOTUS decisions prohibiting mandatory school prayer.

Just FYI.

[Arugula Latte]

185. Yeah -- pretty out there huh?

And on DU no less. Go figure.

[RainDog]

197. incredible

and sickening.

[defendandprotect]

52. +1 --

and I'd just add that what we're talking about, of course, is male-supremacist

religion in America and I think the question should be on the other foot as to

why anyone should support that if we all allegedly support democracy?



??????????????

[urgk]

74. +1

[GoneOffShore]

95. A hit, sir! A palpable hit!

Well done.

And the Sisters of the Church of the Perpetually Outraged will be smiting you soon.

[Arugula Latte]

104. Great post, Fumesucker.

:applause:

[GoCubsGo]

148. Where is that "Like" button?

Oh, wait. Wrong place. In that case...Well said, Fumesucker!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

170. You have all the political power in this country and yet you complain over a little harmless snark

very apt response

[Ohio Joe]

191. Well said - nt

[Union Scribe]

221. It's okay to hate people as long as there are a lot of them where you live.

Gotcha. Brilliant, lol.

[trotsky]

238. +a billion n/t

[bobbolink]

258. There is a name for tarring everyone of a group with the same brush.

It is called BIGOTRY.

[Vinnie From Indy]

9. Good post!

It does seem to me that there is a selective tolerance in regard to religion and especially Christianity. There are some here that go way too far I believe. That being said, I do think that there are a few occasions where the hypocrisy of some pushing religion or using it as an excuse to exclude others demands a response. Sometimes that response takes the form of mockery and ridicule.

Cheers!

[riderinthestorm]

17. So you are really offended at anyone poking fun at the Rapture Ready Christians today?

Can you give the criteria for exactly which Christian beliefs must be granted DU respect?

Fred Phelps is a Christian? Is he off limits too?

"Extreme" is a loaded word. Why can't you be tolerant of those who find those kinds of beliefs ridiculous? Turn the other cheek and all that?

Half-snark/off.

[JFN1]

18. Non-believers get attacked much harder, more consistently, and nobody says shit

Funny how Christians are always "victims" even as they stomp on the necks of anyone who dares to state their disbelief. Example: I once posted about my dog dying and made a comment about "a compassionate God" and was visously attacked as using my dying dog to take cheap shots at Christians.

Puh-lease. Put away the Kleenex - Christians are the biggest bullies out there.

And for the record - I am NOT a Christian - no way, no how, uh-uh.

[Bluebear]

21. you said it.

'Non-believers get attacked much harder, more consistently, and nobody says shit'

[defendandprotect]

55. +1000% -- !!

[Throd]

129. Really? As a life-long atheist I have never felt persecuted.

[Warren DeMontague]

176. You should have been with me on the school bus in the Midwest at age 7

Back in the Early 70s. You know, the time I answered "what religion are you?" with "Atheist"- then explained what it meant.

Got my ass kicked by 3 older boys that day, because apparently, "you're not allowed to not believe in God"

Oh, yeah.. no one has a problem with Atheists- as long as we keep our mouths good and shut about it.

[Arugula Latte]

186. I remember a kid being LIVID with me in 3rd grade that I didn't "believe in Jesus"

He told me in no uncertain terms that I HAD to believe in it. No doubt I was the first person he'd ever encountered in his little religious bubble who didn't give him the same spiel. He was so angry he told on me to the teacher, who, it turns out, was Jewish.

[Fumesucker]

190. "he told on me to the teacher, who, it turns out, was Jewish"

:rofl:

Poetic justice..

:hi:

[Renew Deal]

25. I think the rapture jokes are more about the non-event than about ridiculing Christians.

But there are issues with that here too.

[Warren DeMontague]

26. Not this shit again. People can believe whatever they want. They can't demand no one make fun of it.

Especially when it's bald-faced fucking ludicrous.




So here's the world's tiniest violin for the poor, picked on rapture ready, the incessantly victimized hard-core religious right, the unfairly mocked homicidal fundamentalists, the mercilessly teased anti-choicers who want to outlaw oral contraceptives, the unfairly discriminated against creation 'scientists', the horribly bullied school prayer advocates, and the like..

[Hugabear]

31. +1

What you said

[Ninjaneer]

35. + 1

[urgk]

73. +1

[Arugula Latte]

103. +1

[tekisui]

181. Exactly. No one has a right for their ignorant beliefs to not be mocked.

[Dystopian]

30. Thank you

peace~

[Hugabear]

34. You're right. We should be tolerant of intolerant, bigoted, homophobic, religious extremists

After all, it's not like religious extremists who get excited over this "rapture" stuff have ever told someone they're going to hell for being gay, or have ever opposed interracial couples, or have ever said anything negative about other religions or those who don't believe in God.

:sarcasm:

[defendandprotect]

56. +1 --

[Ninjaneer]

36. Oh no, did those atheist bullies hurt your feelings? = /

:nopity:

[Skip Intro]

39. Sheesh. Really? No, my feelings aren't hurt. But I am a bit surprised by the harshness of replies

like yours.

Guess you'd post the same type of reply to a thread decrying a bunch of "Muslims Are Idiots" threads.

Somehow I doubt that, though.

Well, you got your shot in. Good for you.

Have a good one.

:D

[Ninjaneer]

48. You would guess right.

Believe it or not I don't differentiate between fairy tales.

[defendandprotect]

57. Come back when Churches stop pushing "male-supremacy" -- and all male gods -- !!

[Union Scribe]

223. Really? You've been here a hell of a lot longer than I

but I knew exactly how this thread would go. These lunatics have been holding their big O for today, they were way more excited for 5/21 than any Christian out there.

[justiceischeap]

254. I'd say anyone who is an extremist to their religion is an idiot... Muslim, Jew, Christian, etc.

When you take anything to extremes, it ruins the purity of the original intent of the thing that you're making extreme.

I begrudge no one their honest faith but when those people use their faith to persecute others, then I have a problem, especially as a lesbian who tends to get persecuted. You're so bothered by people piling onto the Christian faith but what are you and others like you doing to take back your faith from the crazies? Not much I'd say because that craziness helps the business of religion and trying to deny that is naive. When your faith has lobbyists, something is very, very wrong. When your faith is forced upon me, whether it be in schools, forums or government, that is wrong.

I know It's not a very mature attitude but really, why should I as a lesbian, do anything to support Christianity or any other religion that condemns me so loudly for being alive? Who uses their "faith" to say it's okay to discriminate against me or even kill me. Or as a woman when Christian politicians (Dems and Reps alike) use their faith to try and change the language of what rape is, or try and tell me I don't have the right to make choices about what I do to my body? It's no wonder there is such a backlash against your religion.

[Ninjaneer]

38. By the way, if the Hawking article belonged in R/T this sure as hell does too. eom

[quinnox]

40. What I don't get is how easily amused it seems some are

by this whole thing. I mean, is it really that endlessly amusing and fascinating that some crazy preacher did a wacky prediction that won't come true?

Wow, its like, I can find some goofy prediction made by some nut case every week, and post it. I guess it should be super popular to post something like this weekly on account of the amount of attention this one is getting. Didn't realize it was such a laugh riot for some folks!

[Fumesucker]

47. It's not the preacher so much, he's just a grifter conning the marks..

It's those folks who buy the con hook, line and sinker who are the most amusing.

[defendandprotect]

58. You'd have to be ignoring the GOP/rightwing religious rise in America over decades ...

bought by rightwing money -- !!

GOP gave the start up funding for the Christian Coalition --

Richard Scaife financed Dobson's organization -- and other right wing wealthy

funded Bauer's --


GOP/"pro-lifers" have been financed by white militia groups --

On and on --

Remember Terri Shaivo?

[SidDithers]

43. Boo-fucking-hoo...nt

Sid

[Rex]

230. Sid!

That is not very nice! :rofl:

[cleanhippie]

46. No one is attacking christians.

Its the beliefs that are being mocked, as they should be.

[Union Scribe]

224. Are you reading this thread? Lol.

[blondeatlast]

59. If it gets too much, we can always walk away from DU. We aren't persecuted IRL;

too many of DU's angry ARE persecuted, daily, and often by those who claim to speak in His name. Try to remember that and respond, as He does, with love--and take a nice walk if necessary. :hi:

[Fumesucker]

61. Thank you. You are a good spokesman for your faith..

[RainDog]

70. Thank you for your contributions to these threads

you are one of the few rational voices who claims faith and your wise words are much appreciated.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

169. well said. nt

[strawberryfield]

60. I am a little puzzled why anybody cares what anybody else believes

I am the least religious person I know. Jesus, Allah, Buddha, the Earth Goddess, whatever, it is all bullshit to me. But I believe people can believe whatever they like as long as they don't break the law in the process. I don't really care if somebody thinks I am going hell because I don't believe the same thing. Unless they are breaking into my house and handcuffing me until I come around, I don't give a shit. If you don't like what they are selling, go find your own thing. Anything else is a big waste.

[Fumesucker]

62. By and large the Republican party is powered by the Crazy Christians..

Without the CC contingent the Repubs would be nowhere electorally and this nation would be in a lot better shape.

[blondeatlast]

155. Exactly--and when these nuts get done with the atheists and the non-Xtian believers,

they are gonna start telling those of us who are Xtian HOW we must practice--and it will be rooted in the Old Testament.

I don't want the wackos who edited out the Book of Matthew in charge, thanks.

[ZombieHorde]

173. "You're family is evil because I believe in this book. Now I will vote against you."

Do you understand now?

[Lucian]

63. I'm an equal opportunity religion hater.

I hate all religion and none of it is safe from attack from me.

I understand that people have the right to believe what they want to believe, but when it starts interfering in my life, and the lives of others, I get pissed. I'm tired of hearing about that stupid fucking rapture, for example. People were wrong about it in the past, that guy is wrong about it now, and people will be wrong about it in the future. I went onto MSNBC.com today and that was front page news. Why the fuck was that news?

[Mariana]

65. I think it's a valid news story

because lives are being ruined. People have spent their life savings "spreading the word". Families have broken up and children have been neglected. I won't be the least bit surprised if there are suicides, and maybe even murders, after it doesn't happen. Broadcasting the story may prevent others from being suckered in the future the way these people have been.

[Lucian]

93. It's their own fault for doing it.

They were too stupid to figure out that it was a bunch of crap to begin with. If they went and sold everything because they lack critical thinking skills, it's their problem. Not mine.

And no, it's never a valid news story when it comes to fake apocalyptic events.

[Zhade]

128. But there is the matter of the kids. Yeah, I think I just asked "please think of the children!"

It's not their fault their parents have indoctrinated them to accept mythology as real. We should worry about them at least, given they have so much trust in those who are supposed to teach them well but fail.

[Lucian]

164. In that case the state should take the kids because the parents...

are too stupid to take care of them.

[Joe the Revelator]

67. I give no quarter to people who use myths to form their world view.

[Zax2me]

68. So many LAME rapture threads, so little time

At first some were kind of funny, now it is just a bunch of comedian wanna-bes swinging wildly and hitting nothing.
For others, yea, probably they figure now is the time to take free swings at a particular religion they hate.
Now I'm clicking around, laughing AT, not with, some of these rapture threads! Some are so lame it is hard to picture anyone over the age of 8 being the author.

[Warren DeMontague]

152. Methinks

thou doth protest a bit too much.

[CanonRay]

71. No Muslims or Wiccans are trying to jam their religion down my throat

as our loving brethren Christians are.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. This OP is full of itself.

The only thing that stands out about the current rapture-fail is the willingness of the group behind it to set a firm date for the Big Bullshit Event. Revelations, and the many interpretations thereof, are fundamental to christian theology. Eschatology is its own major branch of christian 'thinking'. It is utter lunacy. Lunacy needs honest evaluation, not coddling. Honest evaluation results in ridicule: the subject is ridiculous.

How horrible that some DU'ers make fun of lunacy promoted by a 100 million dollar advertising campaign, and in doing so offend other less brazen believers in the same nonsense.

Poor persecuted christians. Where is Diocletian when you really need him? Bring on the lions! At least then you could have something real to complain about rather than being upset because the idiocy of the fundamental tenants of your faith is on display.

[dbt]

75. And nobody else is. Thank Goddess.

[Occulus]

76. Christians have NEVER been tolerant of people like me.

N-E-V-E-R.

Their own holy book calls me an abomination.

I'll show Christians and Christianity the brand of tolerance you're asking of all of us when Christians stop trying to beat people like me, kill people like me, throw their own children out of the house at a young age because those children are like me, stop keeping me and those like me from getting married, and let me and others like me freely visit the hospital bedside of those I and others like me happen to love.

Got it? Good.

[coalition_unwilling]

86. I once had a so-called "Christian" tell me he thought all gays

and lesbians should be gathered together and 'burned to death.' When I pushed back that such a statement did not seem very Christ-like, he tried to laugh it off as 'just a joke.' Funny, though, I didn't get the sense he was joking when he originally said it.

This homicidal homophobia, I've subsequently learned, is a muted sub-text of a lot of Christian RW fundy theology. They try to keep it quiet and say it only to other 'true believers.' But it's out there. So fuck the Christians and their stupid superstitions and wacky myths, most of which were stolen or borrowed from pagan cultures that preceded them.

[urgk]

144. Amen. +1

[kwassa]

261. There are many churches that are very accepting of gays ...

with gay clergy, in fact. Like my church.

[urgk]

77. I don't find the OP helpful. As anything other than flamebait.

It's a pot-stirrer. A red flag for the bulls to charge. There's no specific issue, just a big moosh about feeling that such-and-such seems to be whatsit about how unfair it is to blarble.

We have no idea whether the majority of atheists mock anybody. We have no idea if the majority of things they mock are deserving. We have no idea the scope of the problem, the root causes, the import, just a supposition that provides an opportunity for DU'ers to fight amongst themselves.

[RainDog]

79. but it's a useful thread

because it makes it possible to see who, here, holds opinions that are repulsive to some of us.

I'm not inclined to value their opinions on any other subject either, with this knowledge in hand.

[cordelia]

80. Likewise, I'm sure.

[RainDog]

84. LOL.

fine by me.

literalists have nothing of worth to say as far as I'm concerned and I am happy for you to remain in a cocoon of stupidity - that's your right.

you just don't have the right to force the govt to make the rest of us have to put up with your bullshit.

[cordelia]

122. Where did you get the idea I am a literalist?

You don't have the first clue what my beliefs are or are not, and I have never once tried to force any belief on anyone via any means.

You have, however, shown yourself to be intolerant and bigoted. And nasty. "cocoon of stupidity"?

[RainDog]

187. my issue is with literalists

if that's not you, then the words do not apply.

but since you did reply and since I have repeatedly stated my issue is with literalists - then maybe it is a cocoon of stupidity after all.

I don't know and I don't care.

I have good reasons for my intense dislike of fundies/literalists and I don't give a fuck if you like it or not.

so please, do us both a favor and put me on ignore.

[urgk]

142. Fair point. :) n/t

[Union Scribe]

225. There are a lot of repulsive thoughts being expressed.

I don't know if they're the ones you're noticing, though.

[RainDog]

227. who knows, huh?

I did tag you in the other thread, tho.

take care!

[MNBrewer]

78. Of course people have the absolute right to believe whatever idiocy they choose

they are likewise not shielded from ridicule for believing idiocy, just because that idiocy involves gods/deities/angels/demons/etc.

[coalition_unwilling]

81. When Christian fundies stop bashing progressives and 'secular

humanists,' I'll consider it. Until then, it's class war and it's time to pick sides: either you're with the working class or you're with the ruling class. Whose side are you on?

[Demonaut]

163. ironic name for such a post

I remember something similar that bush said

[myrna minx]

87. You should try to be a non believer in the real world - then you'd know what a frenzied attack is

- just ask that teen aged atheist in Alabama, who's only crime is asking for a law to be enforced. She's receiving death threats. Now THAT is persecution. Persecution isn't being the super majority, where your faith is validated everywhere from coins to courthouses, all except for the opinions of some on one liberal message board.

[pipi_k]

88. Any belief system...

that uses FEAR to promote itself and to control its believers is bullshit, IMO, and deserves to be ridiculed, mocked, and drummed out of existence.

[Bluenorthwest]

89. The guy named Jesus said that his followers would certainly be

mocked and even persecuted for 'his name's sake'. He instructed his followers that when such things happen, they should rejoice and be glad. DU's 'faith community' seems to have rejected that teaching in favor of stomping on the ground and demanding respect.
I ask the OP why the teaching of Jesus is rejected.

[pipi_k]

92. I want to know why...

people so upset over this mocking and persecution aren't stomping and ranting at the people who are giving the mockers and persecutors REASON to mock and persecute in the first place.

IOW....the un-crazies surely can't expect the rest of us to take them seriously when they won't even stand up and confront the people who are giving them all a bad name to begin with.

Well, that's not totally true. I mean, I have seen some Christians come out in ridicule of the May 21 Rapture crowd, and they seem to understand why the rest of us think the whole concept of religion stinks because of the crazies.

[Mariana]

141. That same guy told his followers to pray in private

Lots of that guy's modern-day followers don't bother with that particular instruction, either.

[Javaman]

91. Meh...

when various sects stop doing crazy shit, then I will stop the mocking.

[LeftishBrit]

94. Mostly people are not ridiculing the beliefs; they are ridiculing or attacking the use of beliefs

to restrict the rights of others.

If people use their religion to demand that people conform to traditional social norms, or worse that these be imposed into law, then they deserve criticism: e.g. those who attack gay rights, or women's right to choose, or consider that government-provided welfare is 'unBiblical'.

If people consider that atheists or those of other religions than themselves are immoral or a danger to society, then they deserve criticism.

If people consider that secularism is a danger to society, or that preventing people from imposing religious social conservativism into law is 'secular tyranny' or 'the dictatorship of moral relativism', then they deserve criticism.

I might have expressed similar views to you until fairly recently, because in the UK I'm fairly sheltered from the extremes of the religious right, and have never to my knowledge suffered direct discrimination due to my atheism. But I am still reeling from two separate shocks last year, when 'pro-life' anti-secularist campaigners smeared and helped to defeat my comparatively progressive MP in favour of a Tory; and when the Anscombe Centre for Bioethics, dedicated to anti-contraception, anti-abortion, etc. campaigning, moved into my town and formed links with a college in the university here. I am aware that in some parts of America, instead of two such incidents, it might be constant. In some places, the influence of right-wing megachurches might make it impossible to elect a Democrat, let alone an 'unbeliever', to any important office; in some places, religious groups might sponsor anti-gay-rights and anti-choice referenda; in some places, atheists and agnostics might be socially ostracized and suffer discrimination in seeking employment. I would hardly judge people who are constantly exposed to the Christian (or other religious) Right for expressing frustration with religion.

It is not comparable to Jews, Wiccans or Muslims *in America* (or Britain) since these represent small minorities, not the governing group. A majority has far more power than a minority. FWIW, I would and do criticize members of any of these religions, or other philosophies, if they use them to promote a right-wing agenda. I am certainly *very* opposed to Muslim theocracies, and dislike the influence that small Jewish religious-right parties have on Israeli politics. I am not aware of a 'Wiccan Right', but would certainly oppose such a thing.

Religion and the Religious Right are not synonyms. Many religious people don't subscribe to any socially conservative, or politically anti-secularist agenda. And some people promote such right-wing views for other reasons: nationalism and obedience to authoritarian leaders (modern 'Emperor Worship') can, and often do, result in quasi-theocracy and extreme-right policies. Moreover, at least in the UK, some non-religious people or members of religious minorities support social conservativism for its own sake, and promote 'Christian values' out of support for social conservativism, rather than out of personal religious belief.

But religious right-wing policies, and the treatment of atheists and anti-secularists as immoral, are very nasty and dangerous, and I can see how they may lead to a negative attitude to religion as such.

[Taverner]

96. Oh for f's sake...THEY DESERVE ALL THE MOCKING THEY GET

Anyone stupid enough to fall for yet another Annie Simple is, well, Simple

It takes work to be that ignorant. You really have to work at it all your life, when everything is showing that: yes, there is no god, no heaven no hell.

[pipi_k]

124. And here's the thing..

If I say I believe in Leprechauns even though nobody has ever seen one, and that they talk to me, etc., those same people would call me crazy.

And I would no doubt be locked away in a padded room someplace.

But people can believe in invisible "gods" and they get to walk the streets and try to get others to believe, too.

Incredible

[Taverner]

125. Yep. I've likened religion to a Role Playing Game, Having an invisible friend and a hobby

And yet I get derision - even though those explanations are much saner than what a believer actually does

[pipi_k]

134. You know, I've often wondered

if people in the bible...others in real life (like, for instance, Joan of Arc)...if they heard God "talking" to them because of mental illness. Not because God was actually talking to them.

And I've often wondered if some of the "miracles" attributed to Jesus were actually the Biblical version of a David Copperfield show.


Imagine what it would be like to get transported back in time to Biblical days with some of the things we have now. Gun. Cigarette lighter. iPod with solar charger.

The person who showed up like that would be a god.

[urgk]

143. I've heard that some of the Greek temples used steam-power.

And that it opened massive doors, as if by magic -- http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/26285/

[Taverner]

174. RE: Jesus' Miracles

The only place the miracles show up is in the synoptic gospels, which were written 200-400 years after Jesus. Paul, who's letters were closer to the event, make no mention of miracles.

In fact, pretty much every 'miracle' attributed to Jesus was seen in some other well known religion at the time. Loaves and fishes, walking on water, raising Lazarus from the dead - all of them show up on earlier religions and cults - some with even the same names (Lazarus for example)

[Generic Other]

99. These folks believe I will suffer and die a horrendous death

because I don't accept their doctrine. They even condemn my Asian relatives for generations who never even heard of their God. In fact the list of people they put out of their big tent way exceeds the list of the elect inside.

I did not start the holy war. King James quoting, theophagistic, judgmental individuals with a belief that resembles a suicidal urge are the ones who poked me repeatedly in the eye to get my attention.

And now they got it.

[Arugula Latte]

102. So in that case I guess we shouldn't mock Teabaggers' beliefs, either?

I just posted this elsewhere: I get religion shoved down my throat all the time. I'm expected to shut up and say nothing, even according to many on DU. Non-believers have next to no voice in this country. The Internet has given us more of a voice, but we're constantly told to mind ourselves because it's unseemly that we say anything and that we should "respect" the patent nonsense that is always being spouted at us and around us. A lot of us have had enough of just staying quiet our whole lives. I do not believe "faith" should be a separate category that is off limits from criticism. If anything, it should invite more criticism because it is not based on facts, but rather it is based on stories people have pulled from their imagination and the parroting of these stories on down through the centuries. Critical thinking is almost non-existent in this country because obviously stupid and false statements are almost always left unchallenged.

[1awake]

105. What your post discusses

is the very reason I've considered leaving DU. Making fun of people who hold any religious belief seems to be the norm and acceptable to the site and the admins in general.

[Arugula Latte]

107. One other thing: I think the religious are sensitive about this rapture snark because

it is shining a light on the ridiculousness of religion as a whole. People may not believe the rapture will happen today, but they do believe a dead guy is going to come back from the grave and "save" people, and I think deep down many feel uncomfortable with what they're expected to believe as the truth.

[mmonk]

108. When I quit getting attacked and called names by the Religious Right,

I will have no reason to continue any criticism on my part. I'm just not up for surrender.

[CBGLuthier]

109. It will probably be the issue I will leave DU over

and I am an atheist.

I find it all so goddamned childish and embarrassing. Why should I hang around such RUDE fucking childish people.

[pipi_k]

133. Well, lots of people

have been irreparably harmed by religion, so I guess they're rude and childish and embarrassing.

Whatever...

Just wanted to point out that the "rude, childish, and embarrassing" attitudes toward religion also extend out to the Real World too.

Good luck...

:shrug:

[Duer 157099]

110. Replace "Christian" with "9/11 truthers" and what do you get?

Believing fairy tales, no matter which, is ridiculous, ie, worthy of ridicule.

[treestar]

111. If you're talking about Camping and his rapture

That's different. It's an extremist position most Christians would not take.

[Fuzz]

112. Nothing is sacred, well except every sperm.

[howard112211]

114. People who treat unsubstantiated hypotheses as fact should get ridiculed.

I don't care whether it is "Jesus is god's son" or "Gravity causes masses to repel each other". Either present evidence, or stop claiming that anyone needs to take what you say serious.

[Taverner]

115. Agreed. One Q: Would those statements even count as a hypothesis?

I thought even hypothesizes had to have some element of observed fact...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

120. "Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain

[otohara]

123. It's Because of Today, You Know....The Rapture Thing

Come on, grow an extra layer of skin.

[Kip Humphrey]

126. If Christians would shut the fuck up about what other people should & shouldn't do, and, instead,

take Jesus' teachings to heart and live their lives accordingly, they might garner the respect you seek.

[Mariana]

151. I don't care if they run their mouths constantly

about what other people should and shouldn't do, even when the most hypocritical of them do it. It's annoying, but it's their right. As long as the rest of us are free to ignore them and live our lives in peace, I have no problem. But, that's not what's happening. We have them passing and enforcing discriminatory laws. We have them trying to get their religion taught in school. We have them vandalizing the property of known atheists. Here on DU, we have some of them badmouthing that atheist student in Louisiana, telling outright lies about him. And we have relatively few Christians fighting the people who are doing these things. That shit is a fucking PROBLEM.

And you're absolutely right about how to get respect. There's a Christian here who's been posting on these threads for whom I have developed tremendous respect, just over the last few days. Why are Christians like that one so hard to come by?

[Occulus]

175. "Why are Christians like that one so hard to come by?"

Because most Christians aren't?

[truebrit71]

252. Bingo!

Why do xtains find it so hard to follow their own handbook?

[rustydog]

131. You may be a bit mistaken...I don't see it as making fun of all Christians

and the christian belief as your post suggests.

The jokes about the rapture are against one despicable man who makes millions of dollors preaching doomand gloom to confused people who are looking for answers in a scary world. At his last prediction he was dead wrong and simply said whoops, and gae another date and vulnerable ignoratn scared people kept sending this jerk money.
\i believe we are making fun of him and his deeply ignorant "followers".

I may add, it does not matter what I say, what I believe.

God and the word of the Bible either is or isn't. period. it does not require my belief to make it true and it certainly doesn't require my disbelief to make it untrue.

If the Rapture occurs, so effing what? This is all out of our control according to the Bible, this is all according to God's plan and whetner I believe in it or not, whether I participate in it or not, it will happen whether I repent or whether I remain deeply in sin.

also...isn't there only a pre selected number who are supposed to ascend????

We all don't know. Just lay back and see what happens. It will happen or not happen no matter what your belief is.

[RegieRocker]

135. It was and never is about their religous beliefs and you gone

over the top on this statement. It was about the rapture that is all.

[LAGC]

138. Happy to Unrec Your OP back down to ZERO, where it belongs.

Yes, those poor, oppressed Christians are just being unfairly victimized... not like there exists such a thing as Christian privilege or anything in this country. :eyes:

[Dreamer Tatum]

145. Because if you're anti-Christian, you pick up a lot of people who are safe to ridicule.

So you kill many birds with one very safe stone:

White people
Southerners
Republicans
The less-educated


The absolute and unimpeachable truth of this is evident in the complete lack of posts ridiculing the religion of CERTAIN people. For example, if you ridiculed the religious beliefs of, say, Martin Luther King, you would get castigated and maybe banned. Notice also that in the constant stream of anti-religious threads, the stereotypes conveniently omit the legions of very religious black people in America. The closest we ever came was the very timid mention of how religious (and non-religious) blacks helped pass Prop 8 in California, yet of course when that was too much for people to stomach, they reverted to an old standby: Mormons. Mormons, you see, are largely WHITE people, and are therefore fair game for ridicule.

The ridicule extends well beyond any reason. For example, whenever there is a thread about ACTUAL religiously-motivated killings in other parts of the world, the usual suspects here are typically quick to post something like, "And this would happen here if fundies have their way." Which is false, of course, but no one ever calls them on it. We know it's false because Christians in this country are ridiculed in every medium, and nothing ever happens. Of course, someone will reply that the murder of Dr. Tiller is an example of "something happening," but as bad as that is, it's an outlier, and certainly not an example of the rampant Christian violence that people seem to think is seething just below the surface.

So take heart: the only reason Christians (by this I mean WHITE Christians, of course) are ridiculed here is that they're a soft target. You can ridicule them all you want, feel superior, and nothing will ever happen to you, despite the fervently-held belief that Christians are just waiting for a chance to slaughter us all. Yeah, right.

[Fumesucker]

153. When an atheist talks about "invisible sky daddy" or something similar..

He or she is not referencing just the Christian God but rather the three Abrahamic religions and any others that might have that form of supreme being.

The reason Christians come in for so much grief here is that the Crazy Christians are the prime moving force behind Republican electoral victories, as such they are a threat to the well being of our nation and it's citizens.

If we had the same problems with Mad Muslims or Insane Jews or Batshit Buddhists or Harebrained Hindus constantly enabling the Republican party they would come in for the same amount of ridicule.

[Dreamer Tatum]

154. Your second paragraph is hyperbole

They are not the 'prime' force. Unless you have proof, that is.

[Fumesucker]

156. Take away the fundie Christian vote..

And Republicans would have a hard time getting elected dogcatcher most places in the USA and particularly in the South (from whence a lot of our fucked up political dynamic comes).

[AlabamaLibrul]

192. Here is proof that at the very least, in a poll in 2007 (the most recent i could find),

Of a majority in the Republican party and very close to one (clearly a plurality, as there are 0 atheists that I know of elected to any national office) in the Democratic party.

"The new survey, based on interviews with 1,003 adults in January 2007, found that the gap between the two political parties in terms of Christian commitment is not large, as many might assume. The most significant differences were found in the area of beliefs rather than behavior.

According to survey results, 57 percent of Republicans assert that the Bible is accurate in all of the principles it teaches compared to 40 percent of Democrats.

Republicans are also twice as likely to believe Satan is a real spiritual entity (33 percent versus 17 percent); more likely to reject the idea that good works can earn salvation (35 percent versus 23 percent); more commonly describe themselves as absolutely committed to Christianity (61 percent versus 48 percent); more likely to deem their religious faith to be important in their life (77 percent versus 67 percent); and more likely to believe that God is the all-knowing, perfect Creator and Ruler of the universe (75 percent to 65 percent)."

I think it's important to note that Christians are in no way a "minority", they are in no way infringed upon in this country, they haven't been systemically persecuted in quite a long time, they wield much power and influence, and they often times use it to bully and threaten and push others around.

I don't stand for it.

Never give up,
AL

(1) survey source, appears to be an AP poll? but posted on http://www.christianpost.com/news/how-does-the-faith-of-republicans-democrats-measure-up-26175/

[Zax2me]

146. You won't find these same people taking on other fundies

It's just the way it is around here.
Oh, sure, they will say things like 'I hate fundies of any religion' but it is done here on a scale - 99% Christian, 1% other.
In fact, you can search any thread where jihadists have bombed - take your pick location - and before long the thread is full of whiny 'but fundie Christians are just as baaaaad' kind of stuff. Usually includes a McVeigh reference even though McVeigh was not a Christian (agnostic).
My suggestion - learn to live with it(!)
For the most part these threads can be avoided. Not this weekend, too rampant. But usually in GD it's just 2-4 a day, easily avoidable.
The site itself is too informative and full of many interesting people, thoughts, ideas to dismiss because there are a few anti-Christian zealots mucking about. The most blantant threads are either moved or locked.

[Fumesucker]

157. McVeigh took last rites from a priest..

Hardly the mark of an "agnostic"..

[Zax2me]

204. Not my words...they were his.

If he didn't carry the agnostic belief in good standing, take it up with the judge -

In June, 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News claiming to be an agnostic.

In a March, 1996, interview with Time magazine, McVeigh professed his belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."<83> In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

[Fumesucker]

209. Actions vs Words..

Very nearly his last action was to take last rites from a priest.

Do physicists give last rites?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

253. No, wait, let me guess, Hitler was an atheist too, right?

[Warren DeMontague]

171. Bullshit,

Find the threads where the Mohammed cartoons were causing homicidal riots.

I say to you, again: bullshit. And stop trying to silence people who are pointing out ridiculous sky-man fairy tale magical thinking and lunacy, like this rapture crappo.

You can believe whatever you want, you can't demand no one subject it to rational analysis and critical thought.

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

207. Yes, "my type"

i.e. critical thinkers.

[RainDog]

215. I'm willing to do something constructive

with anyone here who would like to cite sources, etc. to look at the bible as an historical document to see if it can possibly be literally true.

specifically - the issues of the inerrancy of the bible and whether or not creationism is a valid scientific topic.

those two topics really go to the heart of the problem - a willingness to believe something in spite of evidence that such beliefs are false.

[LeftishBrit]

228. And that is PRECISELY what can cause atheists to become resentful of religious people

Being informed in actions and words that they 'don't count'.

Would you be prepared to say this to any other minority group, even if it was getting too 'uppity' for your liking?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

158. comparing yourself to minority religions, shows how little you know

about actual persecution and dealing with real bigotry.

if i were the major religion, and come election time, everyone pandered to me, i would let some slights on du roll off my shoulders.

of course being a female, person of color, immigrant, queer gives you some real perspective

majorities mostly persecute minorities, whether its christianity here or hinduism in india.


you can believe whatever you want to, including the story of being a persecuted and yet oddly powerful majority, but if your beliefs are ridiculous, people may laugh at you.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

166. I agree...... Keep in mind though,

DU is practically the only place where their religious beliefs are questioned and scrutinized.


When people are pandered to in almost every facet of life they become accustomed to certain things/privileges.

[Taitertots]

159. LOL, "frenzied attacks"

It is like an inquisition on DU.

[Demonaut]

160. I agree that some are more intolerant about peoples beliefs

but why this tent is so big..most things unite but Christianity is used so much as a weapon by the right that those that believe it on the left are caught in the crossfire
Gun owners on the left feel much the same I think

[Blue-Jay]

165. More Xtian persecution. Boo hoo hoo.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

168. ...

:applause:

[RainDog]

194. [phone]

but blue jay, you're nasty and mean to say you're sick of their bullshit.

how dare you - these poor persecuted xtians who want to make us have to listen to their prayers.

the joke is that they tell themselves it is only their religion that gets criticized - and that's bullshit too.

[JackDragna]

167. Hey, I'm equal opportunity.

I think the problem of accepting supernatural religious tenets is universal in all religions. My belief is essentially this: so long as you allow anyone, for religious reasons, to accept anything on faith (the world will end on May 21st, for example), then you lose the ability to critically assess any such belief.

[Warren DeMontague]

172. special pleading

more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Warren DeMontague]

177. I am the Pope of the Church of wearing my underwear on my head

My underwear is a spectral antenna which allows me contact with the Divine, and his only begotten son and earthly prophet, Carrot Top.



don't you dare mock my beliefs.

[Arugula Latte]

189. Blashphemer!

The earthly prophet is Stephen Baldwin!

[DevonRex]

178. ...

:hug:

[KG]

179. 'frenzied attacks'

:rofl:

[Ramulux]

184. Christianity isn't real

Thats probably why many people on this site have trouble pretending like its totally reasonable for someone to believe in some absurd fictional story about god's son, and resurrections, and killing gay people.

[Zax2me]

205. Thank goodness we have freedom of religion protection.

You say you won't take it away, but I don't know if I would trust you in power.
BTW - Obama is a Christian.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

214. he cant take it away from you cos you are the majority

the powerful majority that is in NO way, shape or form actually persecuted.

[RainDog]

216. funny that no one has ever tried to take away xtian's right to believe in god

in this nation, yet this is what this person fears, while there were forced conversions of Native Americans who were sent from their families and forced to live in schools where they would be indoctrinated into the xtian faith.

iow, the only examples we have in this nation concerning the oppression and attempt to eliminate religious beliefs was on the part of well-meaning christians - who also justified genocide of Native Americans by claiming they were savages.

in the south before the civil rights act, baptists like Falwell were taught to believe that blacks were from the tribe of dan and, therefore, god had not blessed them - this was the justification used among the good white christians in the south to continue to discriminate against an entire class of people.

but they're the ones who are victims and persecuted - or who fear the same.

that's cause fundie xtianity is a fear-based belief system - like a cult.

[Warren DeMontague]

219. It's like the gays who are running around terrorizing straight people.

It's a real, uh, problem. :rofl:

[RainDog]

222. ...

:toast: :crazy: :fistbump:

[Warren DeMontague]

218. Let me put it this way: You can keep as many unicorn-riding leprechauns in your head as you want.

Not only isn't anyone remotely interested in stopping you, we couldn't even if we wanted to.

[sita]

249. Some of think "The War on Terror" is a bald-faced lie

and politics in general strike me as professional wrestling more than anything. I used to eagerly await "Meet the Press," et. al until I saw how content-free it actually was. All that politician-y nonspeak starts to get on your last nerve after awhile...

[Crunchy Frog]

200. I don't despise all Christians, far from it, but certain select Christians?

Yeah, you bet I despise them and will attack them anytime I feel like it. These certain "select" Christians are the most obnoxious people in the whole country, and one of the most destructive. Their churches mobilize huge amounts of resources and millions of people to get the most regressive Republicans elected to office. They saturate the media with hatred for anyone who doesn't share their religious beliefs or politica agendas. They delight in telling the rest of us about the eternal torment awaitng us in Hell at the hands of their "loving" God and make it clear that they are eagerly looking foreward to it.

I won't be tolerant of that, any more than I will be tolerant of the small minority of Muslims who support al Quaida and their tactics, or the radical RW settler movement in Israel.

If you can find me a group of Wiccans who are so destructive and obnoxious, I'll despise them too.

[blondeatlast]

203. A few thoughts on what Christ might do:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1150292

[southernyankeebelle]

206. You know I felt these people have a right to their beliefs. But what havoc they made on their

families. I bet this preacher didn't give all his belongings away. Now what?

[Crunchy Frog]

217. Any sympathy I might have had toward your position has just evaporated

after taking a look at some of the posts on this thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1143739&mesg_id=1143739

The next time some other religious group in this country starts aiming lynch mob behavior at some kid for defending his rights as a minority and an American citizen, and that behavior is defended by DUers, get back to me.

[StarsInHerHair]

226. A. U cannot substitute Wiccan because that religion does not go about trying

to convert everyone who isn't Wiccan. Both Muslims & Christians have as a central tenet the conversion of everyone to their own respective religions; those 2 religions are invasive. I've recently had a group of women-I don't know which particular brand of religion-knock on my door & continue to knock on my door for at least 5 minutes, driving the dogs to hysteria. They were already told the FIRST time they pulled this to NOT COME BACK. Guess what-THEY CAME BACK. You want intolerance: look to Christians & Muslims-those who go after any other religion & call it false, evil, idolatrous, Satanic, etc.

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usnj&c=words&id=14346

..."For example, a Pagan who wished to open his shop in Austin, Texas, was harassed and ultimately forced to move because of daily taunts that he practiced Satanism. These daily taunts in front of his store caused him to lose business, and thus leave due to pressures of conflict with Christians. Another example of Pagan businesses being attacked is that of a woman in Lancaster, California as recently as 2002. She re named her store, and thus held a new dedication ceremony in the parking lot of the strip mall. Not only did conservative Christian hecklers harass her, but also when the police were called due to the disturbance of the peace, the police unit failed to respond (Barner - Barry) ."....

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/5351987-christian-group-harasses-swingers-clubs-cafes-churches-and-new-age-shops

..."Among the “Occult Witchcraft” is a Nature Center which has a section called “Earth Circle”. This is bad because there is a “Pagan group” around Amarillo that calls itself “Earth Circle” and pagans usually pray in places called “Earth Circles”. Although there are no pagan rituals conducted at the nature center, it doesn't stop RA members from harassing people there.

Others in that category include palm readers, new age stores, a Masonic lodge and head shops.

In the "Idol Worship" category is a mosque, a Hindu temple, a Buddhist temple and a bunch of church’s Repent Amarillo does not agree with"....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article624866.ece

..."Mrs Pinder, a mother of two and grandmother of four, and whose sister is an Anglican vicar in Basildon, described how a group of Catholics had entered her shop and abused her.

She said: “It was as if we had returned to the dark ages. They told me they wanted to cleanse Glastonbury of paganism. They said they had lighters and were going to come back and burn us down. When the police asked them to apologise, they refused.”....

http://www.rickross.com/reference/wicca/wicca46.html

..."Burnet, Texas -- A self-proclaimed witch in the eastern Hill Country is accusing a Christian pastor of leading a harassment campaign aimed at ruining her business and driving her out of the region.
Margie Allen, who practices the pagan religion Wicca, also charges that the Llano County sheriff's office with refusing to respond to her complaints and that Rev. Joann Jackson had organized an aggressive effort to force her out of the area.
The charges have attracted the attention of the FBI, which says it will investigate the claims by Allen, a consignment shop owner, as a possible civil rights case.
Allen says Jackson, her former landlord in Kingsland, ended her lease because of her faith, and that the pastor persuaded another Kingsland property owner to abruptly pull out of a lease deal while Allen was moving in.
"They think I'm satanic," said Allen, a Wiccan for the past six years. "We're dealing with very unintelligent people."
Allen later moved her Magick Garden shop to Burnet, about 20 miles away. But she says relocating didn't end the harassment by people who would gather maliciously outside.
"They'd wait until I was full of customers and then one of them would come into the store and say, 'Weren't you run out of Kingsland because you're satanic,'" she said. "Needless to say, that's not good for business."
She also says people would occasionally follow her from the store to her home and would feign trying to run her off the road. "....

..."A deputy visited while the store was still in Kingsland, Allen said, and boasted that another Wiccan family had once lived in the county, "but we ran them out of town.".... spelling edit

[Mariana]

233. Those awful things were done to those people

in the stories you posted. Who knows how many more crimes like those have taken place and never made the news. And let's not forget all the incidents of intimidation, harassment and discrimination that do not rise to the level of crimes, but still have the effect of causing the victims to live in a state of fear and apprehension.

Some posts on DU are characterized as "frenzied attacks" on Christians. I wonder what the OP would call the incidents you posted about?

[StarsInHerHair]

235. I wonder too, since you are the only person who responded to my post/links

yes, it is startling & frightening, what is happening to Pagans, Wiccans, Heathens, non-Christians-even actual Christians, just not the 'right kind'.

[RainDog]

236. people may not have commented - but they took notice

because freedom of religious belief and freedom from religious belief are the same issue.

as I've said here before - whatever someone wishes to believe in the privacy of their homes and lives is their business.

but when they try to force others to accept their beliefs - then it's a problem.

pardon me for not acknowledging your post before.

[Rex]

231. Making fun of people that worship the invisible and untouchable

is SOP on DU and you knew that before posting. I laugh at people that watch OTHERS get lambasted over their ideologies...yet do nothing until it is something personal, then they are all fighting for the rights of their respected beliefs. Kinda selective caring...but that is most Christians for you...only care when it affects THEM. Then it is an issue, but not before. See it here EVERY DAY. :eyes:

[RainDog]

234. if objections to discussing the lies behind literalist beliefs

is a desire to cultivate them as voters for a democratic candidate, and the complaint is that people alienate those voters by stating their opinions and citing rebuttals here - well, if democrats have to pander to people who use god to justify their fear of others (the politics of homosexual rights,) a desire to control women's reproductive rights and a wish to insert their religion into the public sphere - that's something pols have to work out in their own consciences, I suppose.

seeing democrats lead the fight to withhold civil rights from those who are hated within that religious group is a sad thing.

but our nation's history is replete with politicians who pander to racists and misogynists in order to win elections among racist and misogynist voting publics.

[TNLib]

232. Anyone that believed they were getting Raptured and gave up, there job money ect., is an idiot

and deserves ridicule. Sometimes I think there is a fine line between, spiritual beliefs, and stupidity. But these people crossed that line.

[Dystopian]

237. Compassion

Not ridicule.



peace~

[Zorra]

239. A fascist hatemonger by any other name is still a fascist hatemonger.

I'm an equal opportunity scoffer.

All RW fundy wackos are fair game, no matter what doctrine they manage to twist into the universal RW religious dogma of hate and intolerance.

They're all just plain old fascists that need to be dealt with before they hurt someone.

Same shit, different day.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

245. If there is a god, She sounds like Barbara Jordan.

:D

People who believe in superstitious anti-intellectual crap are fair game for potshots.

[Name removed]

246. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Amaril]

247. I have never had...........

.....a Muslim, Jew or Wiccan knock on my front door wanting to preach to me, call me on the phone asking me to come to their church, question my religious affiliation while standing in line at the grocery store, plaster the sides of the streets I drive on with billboards promoting their God, or insist that if I don't issue THEIR holiday greeting -- at a time when many religions have holidays -- that I am bashing their religion.

The Muslims, Jews and Wiccans that I know, practice their faith privately. They have no interest in cramming their beliefs down anyone else's throat, and they do not seek to actively recruit new members for their churches.

When a religion insists on being aggressively in the face of those who aren't interested in their beliefs, then they don't get to cry "victim" when their aggression causes verbal blow-back.

[pipi_k]

250. Me neither, and you know what...

There are several small communities of Mennonites scattered throughout my area.

The most they do is send out postcards once a year inviting people to some sort of Tent Service.

Otherwise, we never hear from them. They own a couple of businesses nearby. One of them produces lovely furniture. The other sells yummy baked goods.

I've grown rather fond of them. They're friendly and always smiling. And they are industrious as all get out.

One thing I never realized until recently...in the aftermath of Hurricane Camille back in 1969, one group that went to help rebuild was the Mennonites. They were in the background just doing what they could. No fanfare. No needing the spotlight. No advertising the good they were doing. They just did it. Silently.

They've also been involved in rebuilding after other disasters.

And it's not hard to tell where they live because they have the little signs out on the lawn quoting some scripture or another. But I don't mind because I know these people are actually LIVING their faith and not pushing it onto other people...not even under the guise of doing good for others and expecting something (conversion) in return.

:)

[jberryhill]

259. That's fine - get your religion out of MY bedroom and off MY body by force of law

Quite frankly, if your religion is not in my face, I don't have to "tolerate" it or even know about it.

Your business is your business.

Don't give me an opportunity to make it mine.

[Joe Fields]

263. Maybe it's because christians are the biggest frauds on earth.