Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

What does Section 4 of the 14th Amendment mean?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
 
kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 04:44 PM
Original message
What does Section 4 of the 14th Amendment mean?
""14th amendment, Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void."

==========

Is it debatable? Are the Republicans blowing smoke about not increasing the debt limit unless they get the spending cuts they want? Is it constitutional? If they can ignore this Amendment, what other Amendments or laws can they ignore? Can we simply say that the Republicans have been rebelling against the United States for the last 10 years and that all debts and obligations during that time are illegal and void??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. They may be committing treason
I thought they were obsessed with the Constitution.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sadie5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. ???? I'm downright confused
The Repubs are obsessed with the Constitution when it benefits their latest scheme. They didn't seen so obsessed with the Constitution when Bush did everything he could to ruin this country and shred the constitution to bits.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. "authorized by law"
it would seem that they are not willing to "authorize by law" any more debt


I don't see how this amendment forces them to authorize more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Debt is what is already owed.
If you haven't borrowed it yet, then it isn't debt. The present debt limit is about what has already been borrowed, is my understanding?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. yes
but there is nothing that forces them to increase the limit


Your OP seems to suggest that the constitution will force them to authorize more debt, I don't read it that way. To me it seems that the clause you posted only deals with the existing debt, not any future debt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. This limit is for the existing debt...
Not future debt. Is it not?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. not as I understand it
Edited on Mon May-16-11 05:57 PM by Motown_Johnny
we have a debt limit of ~14 trillion dollars



we have not reached that limit yet

if we raise the limit to 15 trillion then there is one trillion of future debt that we could borrow but as yet have not




so the limit must be on future debt, mustn't it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. The present limit is for what we have already borrowed....
is my understanding. If we don't agree to raise the limit, we are defaulting. The government, by borrowing from pension funds, is preventing default on present debt, not future debt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Debt Ceiling Defined

http://www.moneycrashers.com/raising-national-federal-d... /


^snip^


Simply put, the debt ceiling is a cap on the amount of money that the U.S. government is allowed to owe. It includes both public and private debt.








The amount we are allowed to owe, not the amount we already owe
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Sorry.
Edited on Mon May-16-11 09:33 PM by kentuck
I don't see the distinction? We owe this now, not next year, is my understanding from what I have gleaned from various comments from different Senators?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. As they are constitutionally obligated to continue payments
on existing debt, Congress can either cut the budget by the amount required to continue debt service without raising the ceiling, or raise the ceiling. There is simply no way to reduce the current expenditures by the required amount. The ceiling has to be raised.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Pfff, facts!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. It means that we aren't paying for the confederacy, but that this is not to be understood as the...
US defaulting on its debts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. Remember - this is the party that lies so much they don't even know they're doing it all the time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. If we hit the debt ceiling, we do not automatically default. We only default if we don't make
interest payments on the debt. Interest payments are a small fraction of tax revenue, so these can continue indefinitely even if the debt ceiling is not raised for decades.

The government would have to immediately stop or end other government programs to avoid borrowing more, but it would not have to stop making interest payments.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
applet79 Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. A few useful thoughts on Section 4
This blog post has a few relevant thoughts: http://justenrichment.com/2011/05/04/section-four-of-th...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Apr 20th 2014, 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC