Too Many Old People?

[kpete]

.........There're just too many old people. Why should we spend a bundle on keeping 'em alive when their most productive years are behind them. Besides, it's not like old people are an endangered species or anything; there's more of 'em all the time. Clear-eyed politicians like Herger and Paul Ryan know how to cut the waste, and what could be more wasteful than indulging a lot of geriatrics with frills like pacemakers and aluminum walkers when, with a little benign neglect, we can hasten their meeting with their maker.

When those old people were yelling at anti-Obama gatherings about how much they hated socialism at the same time they were yelling "keep your government hands off my Medicare" they were simply saying they wanted to be the last generation of Americans to get it. How much better the world will look when we've vastly reduced the number of the unsightly old and indigent among us.

Thank God for Republicans who've had it with all those who can't or won't pull their own weight. They'll be swept aside, along with all the fake sentiment about how we should revere these dilapidated and antiquated freeloaders. What a brave new world we'll be entering when people like Paul Ryan and Wally Herger have their way. Your grandchildren will have paid for your golden years, but their own golden years will be turned to lead. No Medicare for them. We just can't afford it, and that's just their tough luck.

the rest:
http://www.paradisepost.com/opinion/ci_18059328

[aquart]

1. OR we could tax the rich.

[WCGreen]

2. Soylent Green is people....

[graywarrior]

4. Hell is people

[Curmudgeoness]

29. My first thought too. And even creepier than it being a movie,

I am starting to see bits and pieces of the idea of old people choosing the check out almost becoming acceptable. This is the first step---getting the populace to condone it. I even begin to wonder if Kevorkian was just a little ahead of his time.

[Enthusiast]

46. "This is the first step"

No question about it.

I have been telling my wife for years that the very ones you hear crying about abortion now will be advocates of euthanasia when we get old.

[Curmudgeoness]

47. I would never have believed this years ago. But you are right.

Watching how they are reframing Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid has made me realize that they have very little respect for life, no matter how much they stomp their feet and yell at me that they do. But haven't they already convinced young people that there will be no SS when they are older? First step.

[Enthusiast]

48. Yeah.

How are those under 55 going to feel toward those of us over 55? They are setting us up for the big medicare/social security cut.

[1monster]

3. Shades of Aldous Huxley's BRAVE NEW WORLD and LOGAN'S RUN

directed by Michael Anderson (where, if you were over thirty, you were pushing up daisies).

We already have a society where most of the elders have been killed and the juveniles are running the show. These people advocating killing the elders of society should read this: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/08/magazine/08elephant.html

[WinkyDink]

11. That's why the article itself alludes to BNW: it's satire.

"What a brave new world we'll be entering when people like Paul Ryan and Wally Herger have their way."

[Randy_P]

Logan's Run was great!

2nd-favorite scifi movie after Blade Runner.

[NV Whino]

5. Ironically

There are a good many "relics" who wouldn't mind checking out. But gosh, golly, gee, it's against the law.

[Chan790]

7. If that's how they really felt...

no law in the land would stop them. Honestly.

It's not like they can be charged, tried, convicted or sentenced: they're dead.

(I'm against suicide generally, but sometimes the things people say or claim baffle me. Anti-suicide laws don't persuade anybody to not kill themselves, for the most part they're not even effective at stopping anybody from doing so.)

[NV Whino]

13. Sorry, I wasn't clear

I was referring to assisted suicide. Those who assist can be prosecuted.

[pipi_k]

14. This was one of the tricky things about hospice

when we had them here for my MIL in 2005.

She had broken her hip a second time. Prognosis is six months. The first time she went a few years beyond that, but the second time she started going downhill, mentally. She was 93 and no longer wanted to be here.

After a few months of unpleasantness, an ER doctor pronounced her in renal failure. That, however, only after seeing her DNR directive. So we had hospice come here the final six weeks.

Anyway, the thing about that was, they took away all her regular meds and gave her painkillers. Morphine...Fentanyl. We were told to give her some pretty scary dosages. We did. It put her into a coma, eventually. After about ten days of coma, she died.

I had always felt...justly, or unjustly... that we had either facilitated or hastened her demise.

And what is that but assisted suicide...

Yet, in this case, there was no problem with it...

[Hannah Bell]

22. i used to be a hospice supporter, but i didn't like what happened with my cousin either.

she was at a hospice care house; the nurses did the meds.

before she started on them she was capable of taking liquids by mouth.

then they started dosing her so hard she was just always out.

and no iv fluids on hospice, so --

a week from the time they started that regimen, she died.

imo, from dehydration.

people who don't know so much about physiology can be told any story about what's happening, but dehydration/no fluid intake will kill an already weak person within a week.

and if you put someone out cold with opiates (which are dehydrating in & of themselves) & don't give them iv fluids, they will die for a certainty.

[pipi_k]

35. That's exactly what happened...

It wasn't the lack of food that killed her so fast...it was the lack of liquids.

Got to the point where she couldn't take in any at all...and just using one of those foam swabs to moisten her mouth was pointless.

[Hannah Bell]

38. well, it does relieve some of the feeling of "dry mouth" induced by the drugs & not

giving liquids. but in my book it's euthanasia just the same.

and i don't think most families on hospice get this point.

hospice provided the family with a helpful little booklet about the signs that someone is dying. one of the signs is decreased urinary output & concentrated urine. true as far as it goes in most cases, but -- it's also a sign of dehydration. It doesn't necessarily signal "kidneys shutting down" as the helpful little booklet had it.

for various reasons i couldn't speak to the family directly on this point. however, inwardly i was seething when the hospice staff spoke to the family about how she wasn't putting out much urine so probably only had a short time left.

uh, knock back the morphine & give her some water you assholes.

and in two cases when i was visiting a staff member showed noticeable irritation when asked about liquids. i can't remember the details anymore but i remember thinking that the reaction was weird; i understood the reasons for the diktat about no iv fluids, but the reaction seemed to show they were averse to giving anything po at all -- which is supposedly *not* contradictory to hospice philosophy.

the other thing about opiates is a significant % of people have hallucinations on them -- & the resultant agitation can be mistaken for discomfort or pain when that isn't necessarily the case. Even with the best of intentions, family/staff will react by "giving her more so she's comfortable", i.e. knocking the patient out completely.

Of course, people who appear to be sleeping peacefully are 'less trouble' for staff/ family physically/psychologically. But doping someone to the point of unconsciousness imo is not generally the optimal solution.

The other thing is: there are numerous cases on the books where fever, reduced food intake, or similar systemic "shocks" that affect tumor growth, have effected spontaneous remissions of cancer. imo, the reasons are similar to the reasons that chemotherapy sometimes has the same effect.

When you dehydrate someone to death, there's no hope from that avenue either.

Of course, some people *are* at deaths door when they enter hospice care, so the drug issue becomes moot -- they would die immediately regardless.

in some cases, though, from my personal knowledge (based on reports from staff at two facilities in two cities plus gleanings from working in a hospital that had some dealings with local hospice workers), situations aren't always that clear-cut. in my cousin's case, i didn't think it was, & every time i think about some of the things that were done to her -- even before she entered hospice -- it makes me feel like crying.

[saras]

36. Sounds like you got a genuinely evil place

That is not the norm for hospice, at least not in this part of the country. The essence of hospice is that the PATIENT makes the decisions. They can choose as much or as little painkillers as they want. They also get to use opiates, which kill the pain effectively without knocking them out.

On the other hand, in hospice work, I've seen a number of families who want the old one to die quickly so that they can get the money, and I've seen them deliberately choose the worst possible place for their parent so that they would die quicker. Perhaps the hospice organization you chose caters to that market?

[Hannah Bell]

40. i don't think it's out of the norm. i think that line is very fine & it's very easy to cross --

knowingly or unknowingly.

so far as i know around here, hospice doesn't do iv fluids.

so if you dope people unconscious, they die.

the other thing i should note about this particular case is she went into hospice after a terminal diagnosis. she was expected to die within a couple of weeks, and didn't. toward the end of that period the heavier doping began.

[Hannah Bell]

23. i don't want anyone "assisting". too easy to cross that line.

if people want to check out, it's easy enough without assistance.

[Odin2005]

33. There is a big debate in the Disabled community about Euthanasia.

Many are justifiably frightened about a slippery slope in which guardians for the severely disabled with be "encouraged" to "put their loved ones out of their misery" in order to "reduce the burden to society".

[Hannah Bell]

42. it isn't just consciously or knowingly doing so. in my mind it's more about how people

who don't have a good understanding of physiology or disease processes can be manipulated into doing so without every understanding that's what happened.

as in the opiates + no iv fluids example i've talked about. very easy under those circumstances to assume death was from the disease process when in fact it was simple dehydration.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coyote_Bandit]

8. ...their most productive years are behind them?????

Really?

Henri Matisse (1869-1954) - In his seventies did a series of paper cutouts that are exhibited at New York's Museum of Modern Art.

Pablo Picasso (1881-1973 ) - Completed his portraits of "Sylvette" at 73, married for the second time at 77, then executed three series of drawings between 85 and 90.

Anna Mary Robertson Moses (1860-1961) - Seventy-six when she took up painting as a hobby; as Grandma Moses she won international fame and staged 15 one-woman shows throughout Europe.

Arthur Rubinstein (1887-1982) - At age eighty-nine gave one of his greatest performances at New York's Carnegie Hall.

Sophocles (496-406 B.C.) - After the age of 70 wrote Electra and Oedipus at Colonus; held office in Athens at age 83.

Guiseppi Verdi (1813-1901 ) - At age 74 wrote Otello and at age 78 wrote Falstaff.

Frank Lloyd Wright, (1869-1959) - Completed New York's Guggenheim Museum at age 89; continued teaching until his death.

Adolph Zukon (1873-1976) - At age 91, chairman of Paramount Pictures.

[MuseRider]

15. Pftttttt!

These are people involved in the arts! Come to Kansas where by line item veto, against the legislature (mostly Republican who had been influenced by the will of the people to save state support) and the people themselves we no longer have any state support of the arts. Public Broadcasting is the next line item that is going to get the ax by our oh so wonderful governor. Old people doing art? You gotta be kidding me, that makes them twice as worthless!

Now, where are the old and successful CEO's? They will matter I suspect.

*sorry, not angry at you....but bereft for my state

EDIT to add that I know the article was satire but sadly the state of my state is not

[Coyote_Bandit]

18. Hey Hey

I live in JOklahoma.

Neither of us lives in an art mecca.......

[MuseRider]

24. Thankfully there are places in both states

where you can find it, well could find it. I don't know what is going to happen here now.

Oh yes, we can commiserate on many things can't we. :hug:

[Coyote_Bandit]

43. About a year ago

the only fine jewelry instructional program in this state closed. I think there are maybe 20 or so comparable programs nationwide. The nearest is in Texas - and doesn't have a particularly good reputation.

This year one of the only warm glass/stained glass teaching studios in the area is closing. The nearest place for instruction is in Wichita - but doesn't include much of the glass casting, frit painting, and glass painting work.

Both represent real loss for me - but nobody else seems to notice much.

I know some really talented, nice, kind people here - but damn this place (JOklahoma) is small-minded and crude. And becoming more so.

Hope things fare better in your area.

[MuseRider]

44. The town I grew up in is the

capitol. It should have many things, we attract a lot of people but instead it seems to be infected with the, "we can do without it" bug. It has always for as long as I have been alive been horrified by taxes. I no longer live there but I am close to it.

There have been many many attempts to change this dynamic but so far they have all failed. There is an art district being created and the people involved are, of course, big money people of the city but they are using it to make something beautiful and a place for beauty to be created. I am holding my breath. I can't see it working. When my symphony conductor wrote an LTE about how the arts do create jobs and make money for the state, far more than the state puts into them, he was battered by the usual group with responses that we should play at the race track or on the sidewalk downtown. We don't need state funds, we need to be more inventive. We hang on by the skin of our teeth here as far as the arts go. There are some really good things here but not really good things come from out of town, we get third rate tours of plays and shows and still the populace complain bitterly about having to support our one facility for these kinds of events. We would all be so much better if there was support from state leaders. Not even money support just word of mouth about how important the arts are.

We got off topic here, sorry OP for jacking your thread. Coyote_Bandit, I am sorry to hear about your situation. We lost our only real stained glass place years ago that made and taught the craft, it is all overlay now I think. I don't know about a teaching facility. People here are pretty industrious with their art but it is hard to find unless you ask the right people. Little studios are around. I don't know about fine jewelry but there are some very good artists who do some very nice jewelry here and around here. Again, you just have to know who to ask.

Small minded and crude here already and getting much much worse.

[Odin2005]

17. And Jimmy Carter is still helping Habitat for Humanity.

[nevergiveup]

9. You forgot to say

"Some of my best friends are old people"

[WinkyDink]

10. "I'm not too old, though!" ~~~ Alan Simpson, b. 1931.

[WinkyDink]

12. It's SATIRE!! In the vein of "A Modest Proposal"!

"What a brave new world we'll be entering when people like Paul Ryan and Wally Herger have their way."

"Clear-eyed politicians like Herger and Paul Ryan know how to cut the waste, and what could be more wasteful than indulging a lot of geriatrics with frills like pacemakers and aluminum walkers when, with a little benign neglect, we can hasten their meeting with their maker."

[cherokeeprogressive]

19. Yeah it may be satire, but I don't find it amusing or funny in the slightest.

Because I'm positive there are people out there who feel exactly the way the piece puts it out.

[NutmegYankee]

21. Jonathon Swift had the same problem.

Some people actually thought his modest proposal was a good idea. To add insult, after satirizing every aspect of British society in Gulliver's Travels, some people actually believed there were Lilliputians.

[Odin2005]

16. What ever happened to respecting out elders for their wisdom and experience?

[bobbolink]

25. Joke. Of. The. Week.

:(

[Odin2005]

27. !!!

:hug:

[bobbolink]

30. When I am with my Indian friends, I am accepted by the elders, and treated with kindness and respect

by younger ones.

It brings out the best in me.

Why do this society get such enjoyment out of laughing at people, cutting people down, being so damned superior?

:wtf:

:hi: Odin! :pals:

[Odin2005]

32. I grew up near a reservation (Ojibwe) and love elder Native folks.

They are some of the nicest and wisest folks I have ever met.

Ditto with the old Sri Lankan guy in my building.

[bobbolink]

34. Hospitable, wise, respectful and also humble. So much to learn from them!

I'm glad you have had that experience... it changes how we see our own culture.

Being mean and harsh and disrespectful isn't "human nature"!!

Hope you are doing well! :pals:

[Hannah Bell]

28. that is in pre-capitalist societies. capitalism renders "wisdom" out-of-date every

twenty years.

it was also in a society of small producers. for the most part, capitalism has done away with small producers.

most people = "workers". thus, when they can no longer work/become dependent, they no longer possess any qualities of value, except for whatever lingering ties of affection may exist in their social world.

unless, of course, they have money -- & are compos mentis. *then* they will be publically acclaimed for their great wisdom -- until they start losing it, at which time the vultures will circle.

[Odin2005]

31. Sad, but true.

Same with people with disabilities, if it were up to TPTB those would could not work would be "euthanized". :puke:

[bobbolink]

20. ..

[sabrina 1]

26. As Sen. Simpson said 'they are all greedy old geezers'

because they won't give up the benefits they paid for! Who could argue with that? :sarcasm:

[saras]

37. There's too many men - Genghis Khan demonstrated that we only need one

[AsahinaKimi]

39. Logan's Run?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074812/

http://www.ugo.com/movies/logans-run-script-review-exclusive

[DCBob]

41. This may be satire but it feels like reality in the not too distant future.

By the time we are sitting in a retirement home this country could be in much worse financial condition than now and the younger folks will just get angrier and angrier at the amount of money needed to support the retired generation... especially knowing they probably wont have the same sort of safety net when their time comes. It could get very ugly.

[Enthusiast]

45. Yeah!

Why waste money on the elderly that could be better spent on the military industrial complex. I mean, the U.S. only has 12 aircraft carriers to the combined world's 9. It just not a large enough advantage. Too many unproductive mouths to feed. Adolph had the same argument.