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The Hand Wringing Over Osama’s Death from Fellow Progressives is Unwarranted

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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:24 AM
Original message
The Hand Wringing Over Osama’s Death from Fellow Progressives is Unwarranted
False moral equivalencies, cries of extra-judicial killing, all of this and more has been the reaction to the killing of Osama bin Laden by a particular segment of the Progressive left.

To understand whether any of these accusations have merit, let’s completely outline the situation that existed and exists between the United States and bin Laden and his group, Al Qaeda.

In August of 1996, Osama bin Laden issued the first of two declarations of war against the United States. He issued a written religious edict, called a Fatwa that was unambiguously titled "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places." In this Fatwa, he called on all Muslims to join him in this war against America and Israel.

In February 1998, bin Laden issued a second Fatwa declaring war against the United States, it’s allies, and Israel. In this second declaration of war, bin Laden among other things said “The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it”

On August 7, 1998, i.e., a few months after the second declaration of war, the group led by bin Laden, Al Qaeda, bombed the US Embassies in the capitals of Kenya and Tanzania. Through those bombings, along with the October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole and of course the September 11, 2001 attacks, bin Laden and Al Qaeda demonstrated the seriousness of the ideas and intentions expressed in those two declaration of war Fatwas.

Is it possible for an international law-recognized state of war to exist between a nation state and a non-nation state entity, or even two or more non-nation state entities? The answer is, “of course”, as an example, many civil wars fit this description.

My assertion is that according to applicable international law, a state of war existed and continues to exist between the United States and Al Qaeda and its affiliates. No cease fire or peace agreement has been signed between the US and Al Qaeda and acts of war continue between them.

International Law, as outlined in various United Nations documents and the Geneva Conventions has a number of things to say about terrorism, war and self defense.

Article 51 of the United Nations Charter says “Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security….”

Al Qaeda is not a member of the United Nations and does not recognize the authority of the United Nations, its charter or its resolutions. Thus, the idea that the Security council can “take measures necessary to maintain international peace and security” in this situation via any kind of diplomatic actions or resolutions is moot, at least as things now stand.

On 12 September 2001, The UN Security Council adopted a resolution that condemned the September 11th terrorist attacks, expressed determination to combat terrorist acts by “all means”, re-affirmed the inherent right of individual and collective self-defense, and expressed its readiness “to take all necessary steps” to respond to the terrorist attacks.

The September 11th attacks resulted in the US and UK as well as Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Italy, Netherlands, New Zealand and Norway joining together in Afghanistan to wage war against Al Qaeda and their Taliban supporters. Most of those countries are hardly the sort that would be involved in unnecessary wars or unprovoked wars of aggression. We can go beyond those countries who participated directly and say that virtually the entire international community supported the United States in their efforts to bring the perpetrators of 9/11 to justice.

Indeed, in response to the killing of bin Laden, Ban Ki-Moon, Secretary General of the United Nations said “Personally, I am very much relieved by the news that justice has been done to such a mastermind of international terrorism. I would like to commend the work and the determined and principled commitment of many people in the world who have been struggling to eradicate international terrorism.”

Linguistics Professor and political activist Noam Chomsky has compared and asked us to contrast the attack that killed bin Laden with a hypothetical attack by Iraqi commandos to kill George W. Bush or Dick Cheney. Chomsky suggests there is a moral equivalence between the two. Anti war activist and author David Swanson wrote an article that suggests that bin Laden was lynched.

As an aside, most Democrats were against the Iraq war, identified it as unnecessary and unprovoked, and we were proven correct. I have written several articles critical of the war and proving that the Bush administration knew several weeks before the war that their primary justification regarding the existence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was not true. Here is one such article http://www.opednews.com/articles/Iraq-War--Six-Year-Ann... . Those facts make the Iraq war an unprovoked war of aggression and those who ordered it are guilty of that war crime.

The easiest response to Chomsky’s suggestion is that currently no state of war exists between Iraq and the United States. Not only that, the government of Iraq signed Status of Forces Agreements in 2008 and 2009 that governs how many US troops can be in Iraq and for how long. So Chomsky is comparing a killing that occurred between two entities that are at war and a hypothetical one between two entities that are not only no longer at war, they have good relations.

International law and most countries’ criminal law statutes take those kind of distinctions very seriously.

It would be quite an odd argument to claim that bin Laden should get the protection of a non-war status and those who killed him should be prosecuted for an extra-judicial killing after he himself declared war twice and since then has continuously waged war directly through the organization he led.

A helpful second example that illustrates the inaccuracy of the Chomsky and Swanson analogies is the April 18, 1943 killing of Japanese Commander in Chief Isoroku Yamamoto by the US Army Air Corps. Military intelligence learned that Yamamoto would be conducting an inspection of Japanese installations in the Solomon Islands and they learned the flight path his aircraft would be taking, and they had US Fighter aircraft ambush and shoot down the plane.

The ambushing of Yamamoto was not a crime and no one then or since has considered it so. In wartime, the commanders of combatants are legitimate and legal targets. It’s not considered an extra-judicial killing or lynching to attack combatants and their commanders in wartime.

A high percentage of those who self identify as Democrats and/or Progressives also self identify as anti-war, and I include myself in that. There is a difference, however, between protesting unjust wars and preferring non-violent solutions to conflicts whenever possible versus twisting facts and using false equivalencies to demonize actions because you want to try to assert that all acts of violence, particularly those by one country or entity (in this case the US), are evil.
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patricia92243 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good, clear articulate writing and thinking. K&R
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. There are no false moral equivalencies or hand wringings on his death
with progressives. In fact, there is a false equivalency in the other direction when questions of procedure are asked.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent post although there are quite a few around who
think that Usama's half-right.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
27. Wild accusation and almost certainly wrong.
Perhaps you perceive one thing for another?

Shame at US reaction vs. approval for Osama?

Very different things, unless you are half-blind.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
57. Prove your contentions
quote what people here have said about OBL being even close to 'half right'.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. Once you accept Bush's proposition that the entire planet is a war zone
everything else falls right into place. :)
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I don't accept that proposition. That is a straw man. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Not at all. It's the basic premise of the War on Terror.
It's the subtext to your listing of the coalition of the bought and coerced. It is the premise that permits our government to go into Pakistan and shoot bin Laden in the face.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I never asserted there is a war on terror and certainly not a global one. You are altering my
argument to fit one that you think you can more easily attack. The very definition of a straw man argument.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. So in your war between the US and Al Qaida, what is the battlefield?
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Generally, Afghanistan and Pakistan. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. The thing is, unless you accept the WOT's premise
Obama has no basis for entering Pakistan. Let alone for running a drone program that involves preventable civilian casualties. Just as he has no basis for dropping cluster bombs in Yemen or for targeting an American citizen for assassination there, etc.

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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. No, that is not correct. International law has considered situations like this before
Edited on Sun May-08-11 10:04 AM by stevenleser
it is possible to be at war with a group like the barbary pirates, for instance, that moved between a single nation state in Africa and two non-state territories.

Most of Al Qaeda is in the Af-Pak region. There are affiliates concentrated in Yemen and one or two other countries. Five countries in Asia Minor is not the entire globe. Being at war with Al Qaeda and their affilitates does not require one buy into a nebulous global war on terror.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. In your example, the non-state territories had no sovereignty to violate
so that's something of a stretch.

Obama cannot use the rationale "Al Qaida is there" when he goes into Pakistan and Yemen. He is using the permission inherited from BushCo aka, the GWOT. I'm not trying to twist your OP but rather, to show you the underpinning.

Obama has asked that his administration stop using the phrase "global war on terror", preferring "overseas contingency operation" or some such jumble. But changing the label doesn't change the M.O.



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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. You are now completely outside the premises of the OP with your comments. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Not at all.
You yourself went to great trouble to describe a state of war between the United States and Al Qaida. My comments speak directly to the mechanics of that state of war.

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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
79. You incorrectly assume that a state of war can only exist between two states. Correcting for that
Edited on Sun May-08-11 03:19 PM by BzaDem
false assumption (as Steve is doing) is not equivalent to accepting Bush's global war on terror theory.

If Pakistan is either explicitly or implicitly harboring terrorists, we will go after those terrorists. This has been the case before Bush -- Clinton himself ordered the assassination of OBL. He didn't need "permission" from the host country, or even to inform them.

On the other hand, if accepted your false assumption, and the only way to deal with Bin Laden was inform Pakistan, they would have likely helped him escape. THEN I would not be surprised at all if we entered a state of war with Pakistan. So not only is your theory incorrect as a matter of factual accuracy, but your theory has the side consequence of resulting in more war between states (not less).
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #79
157. So, does Cuba have the right to come here and go after
the terrorist we are harboring in Florida? That is the question people want answered.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
60. Not Yemen? Not Saudi Arabia? Not Sudan?
Not the many more Mooslim countries all over the globe?

Big Fat Fail.
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
31. That the world is a war zone is the national military policy.
There are military COMs that cover the entire planet plus outer space and cyberspace.

Otherwise a thoughtful piece of writing.

One could argue that treaties with Iraq have been obtained under duress.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. That is outside of what I am arguing in the OP. n/t
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #32
53. Don't be obtuse. It is critical to your argument that bin Laden's death was a product of war. n/t
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
59. Didn't you know?
It's A-OK for a President with a D after their name to preside over, escalate, & get into new war(s)!

Tsk, tsk

WHY do you have America and our Pres? :P
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. Great post.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
6. Great post. K&R. nt
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. Well said. k&r
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. Thank you for your thoughtful post. K&R nt
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
12. Excellent Steven. Kicked, Rec'ed and Bookmarked.
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
13. K&R
Well done.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
15. Agree; well written, thought out and concise post.
KnR.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
17. Accidentally unrecced.
Great article.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
18. Glenn Greenwald has said it best:
Edited on Sun May-08-11 09:51 AM by coalition_unwilling
Once you embrace the bin Laden Exception, how does it stay confined to him?

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/...

Der Spiegel, long established and respected German magazine, asks this trenchant question (loosely translated):

Under what 'law' was OBL assassinated without a trial ?

Along those lines, can you please cite the U.S. statute that governs here???? And would that same statute allow for similar hit jobs on others???? If so, where do you draw the line and say, "This far, and no further?"

As EFerrari trenchantly points out upthread, exactly what is the 'battlefield'? I think she's saying in a round-about way, "Are we dispensing with all boundaries?"

Edited for typos and clarity.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Its not a bin Laden exception. It is a war exception. International law is clear on this
Edited on Sun May-08-11 09:55 AM by stevenleser
and the US is a signatory to the UN Charter and the various Geneva conventions.

The battlefield is generally Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Can you look at the following that I put in my OP and consider them in the context of Al Qaeda's actions right after the second declaration and tell me that we are not at war with them:

In August of 1996, Osama bin Laden issued the first of two declarations of war against the United States. He issued a written religious edict, called a Fatwa that was unambiguously titled "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places." In this Fatwa, he called on all Muslims to join him in this war against America and Israel.

In February 1998, bin Laden issued a second Fatwa declaring war against the United States, it’s allies, and Israel. In this second declaration of war, bin Laden among other things said “The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it”
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #19
49. Aside from the niggling little technicality ( so quaint and obsolete now as
Edited on Sun May-08-11 11:33 AM by coalition_unwilling
to hardly bear mentioning) that only Congress shall have the power to declare war, according to the U.S. Constitution, aside from that little technicality, I could maybe accept your statement that it is not a bin Laden exception but a 'war exception'. If we took bin Laden's fatwas so seriously, then why did neither Bush nor Clinton ask Congress to declare war? Could it be because one declares war on nations, not on individuals?

I don't think you really want to get into what the Geneva Conventions mandate and the little Orwellian trick Bush and now an Obama spokesperson have used to justify our manifest violations of them, specifically here in justifying the hit job by referring to OBL an an 'enemy combatant.' If you do want to discuss complaince or lack thereof with Geneva, just say the word.

Later in the same paragraph, Greenwald asks another pertinent question:

"Isn't it necessarily the case that you're endorsing the right of the U.S. Government to treat any top-level Terrorists in similar fashion?" So where are you going to draw the line? should we just whack Khalid Sheik Mohammed using your logic? That seems a bit like poor sportsmanship, given that he has already been tortured while in captivity (see above re Geneva).

As for the battlefield being "generally" Afghanistan and Pakistan (your word), nice that you neglected Yemen and Somalia. Extra-judicial executions have taken place there as well. In fact, just yesterday, I saw reports that a drone strike just missed Awlaki in, I believe, Yemen.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #49
83. Congress did pass the AUMF almost unanimously. n/t
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #49
115. keep sailing that failboat all over the ocean of bitter.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #115
156. Why, dionysus!
You madcap! Where you going with that shotgun?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
41. America has no problem treating terrorism as a police problem
Edited on Sun May-08-11 10:37 AM by hack89
in Europe, Asia and other regions with functioning governments. The DOJ is collaborating with police forces around the world, as is the Treasury department. We are not blowing up terrorists in those countries.

There are places in the world where there are either no functioning governments to collaborate with or where the governments actively support terrorist groups. Those areas are appropriate for military solutions.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #41
62. So our CIA, and other approved contractors, aren't in the countries
as so I've heard?

Heck, I bet a goodly percentage of U.S. bases said to be in so many other countries are merely figments of we Lefty/Liberal's imagination!

Wow. Good to know! :hi:
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. I would hope they are crawling all over those countries...
I would hope they are crawling all over those countries that are harboring terrorists and are unable or unwilling to work with the FBI and other law enforcement agencies.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #65
91. Your contention is
that we're letting these foreign countries completely control and implement their anti-terror actions:
"in Europe, Asia and other regions with functioning governments. The DOJ is collaborating with police forces around the world, as is the Treasury department. We are not blowing up terrorists in those countries"


Even with "collaborating... police forces (governments)" we don't have our people in there?

Are you serious?


Nor do I think we should "be crawling all over those countries".
What I think is that we should definitely address the terrorists grievances -- most ARE quite legitimate and, if done to/within this country wouldn't be tolerated for one damn minute.
How many foreign bases are on U.S. soil?
--and that's not to mention that our "Freeing" (by bombing or invading) those countries only causes many more terrorists. It's like cutting off the head of the Hydra, yet we're most definitely not Hercules!
Nor could we ever be, by any stretch of the imagination.

We are NOT the Police force of the world, but we can control the damage we do not only to other peoples and our standing in the world but to ourselves.
Remember, for one, this entire OBL thing started because we, under Reagan wanted to have a nice long session of gloating & schadenfreude;
then we understood that Afghanistan was the graveyard of empires (although we wanted to hasten Russia's 'progress' towards that end). Now, we seem to have forgotten that lesson we knew such as short time ago.
On top of that, & for instance, once we gained a foothold into our "friends", the Saudi's country and once our mission to "save" Kuwait was over we never left! The only thing we 'left', permanently so it appeared, was our soldiers who violated their deeply held beliefs; those regarding alcohol, halal, "exposure" of women, proselytizing, etc.
I'm not saying their system is great, IMO it sux big time; but until the people change their own system of government because they want to I just don't think our insulting them time & time again, within their own country nor even without, is conducive to good will towards the U.S., its people or to the soldiers stationed under my example of Saudi Arabia.

Well, not until after the tragedies of 9/11 had occurred did we leave -- then even the idiot Dubya had enough sense to finally close our bases!


We are in so many countries that we have absolutely no contemporary reason to be in, other than our "national interests" whatever they may be, even when our interests are far from the actual host countries interests; but what do their interests regarding their own country matter?
(Why do we have any reason to be in Germany, for instance? The Cold War is long past!)

They should ALL have governments just like ours, & certainly not like those damn Socialist European countries, righty-right? What do 'their interests' *scoff* matter? We're "exceptional" and "morally superior" so we must "help" all those 'backwards countries' and forget about concern for their people -- we gladly intervene even at the expense of the welfare of our many U.S. citizens -- children and elderly alike!

See, it's OK for US to decide our own system of government (& don't forget we fought a revolution to achieve that) but for others, well, we can pick the system of government that's good for them. Perfectly fair! :eyes:

We engineered, trained & otherwise helped many dictators overthrow their democratically elected presidents because their "Democracies" were too "Communistic"!

--I'm talking about forcing upon others our beloved, good-for-everyone!!1! system of government: Capitalism, Yay!
Sure, the worst in recent past was was in South America but now we're virtually doing the same damn thing to those regions & continents half a world away (except China, our BFF, of course!) And it's passing strange how we're doing the same thing, or outright invading, to force them A-rab Mooslims to just love "Democracy", even if they're not ready for it!

It's just the latest --but so similar to be considered pretty much exact, we being a 'Christian nation' & all-- version of the millennium+ of war our European ancestors exacted to make other countries Christian!
'We want you to live just like us' has turned into, as the great poster says: "We're gonna Free the shit out of you!"

USA! USA!!!



Oh the hell with it, I've been working on this post way too long so I'm going to leave it, gaps & grammar be damned -- I've got things to do

and I have this nagging suspicion that nothing I say is going to make one bit of difference to those who are bound & determined to knock others, to wit: them Libruls (which they wish were out of 'their' party anyhow)

Yes, this entire episode has been VERY educational.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #41
74. If Yemen doesn't have a functioning government, who is Obama giving all that
military aid and equipment to? Ditto for Pakistan.

Swing and a miss.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. The Tribal areas of Pakistan are not governed by the national government
You are right about Yemen - we have the government's permission and assistance so it is legal.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. I think you are mistaken on both counts.
The government of Pakistan has to approve of any US activity in the tribal area, no matter what their domestic arrangements are for law enforcement.

And both the actions in Pakistan and Yemen are extra legal per US law as Obama has no authorization to be in either venue. Or, they would be extra legal had we a functioning government and legal system. :)

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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. But the Pakistan government exerts no control over the area
but you forget my second caveat - the Pakistani government (or elements of the government) was actively protecting OBL. In that case, I see no obligation to respect their sovereignty at all. If you support groups that wage ware against another country, then you really can't hide behind international law.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. Um, the default for international law is not to ignore it when it suits you. n/t
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #88
109. The default is not to let evil prevail
just because we can't find the precise legal rule that fits the situation.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. Congress passed the Authorization to use Military Force almost unanimously. Not only did Obama
Edited on Sun May-08-11 03:28 PM by BzaDem
easily have authorization to be in BOTH areas -- he easily had the authority to kill OBL and other Al Queda members.

As for Pakistan, not only can we kill terrorists in tribal areas not controlled by their government, but we can kill terrorists in areas undisputedly controlled by their government (as we did) when their government is harboring terrorists. On top of that, the alternative was declaring war on the state of Pakistan itself, so Obama actually undertook a much narrower solution than what your solution would result in.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
50. Indeed. No one else seems to see these easy analogies supposed to make this killing lawful.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
68. It's easy to confine the issue
1. If the terrorist is in a country that is able and willing to arrest him, or to allow the FBI to come and arrest him, then it becomes a law enforcement issue.

2. If the terrorist is in a country that is unable or unwilling to arrest him then a military solution can be considered.

There are parts of the world with failed states that are basically lawless and ungovernable. There are also states that actively support terror groups. Pakistan falls into both groups - the idea that they would cooperate with us to arrest him is ridiculous. Thus the military solution.

America is not blowing up terrorists in Europe and Asia - American law enforcement is collaborating with foreign police and intelligence services on a constant basis.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. Care to cite the U.S. statute (or statute in any body of international law)
Edited on Sun May-08-11 02:36 PM by coalition_unwilling
that codifies that principle? Who decides what constitutes a 'failed state'? If Pakistan is one such 'failed state,' do you have any concerns about its nuclear arsenal?

How about I just throw Greenwald's essay at you one sentence at a time and watch you stretch ingenuity beyond its natural limits in trying to defend the indefensible?

Here's another sentence from Greenwald's essay:

"Then there's the strange indifference to finding out whether bin Laden was actually captured before executed."

Does it matter to you whether OBL was captured before being executed or do such distinctions no longer matter, provided the action takes place in what you deem a 'failed state'?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Self defense is a legitimate right under International law
now while some legal experts take a restrictive view of preemptive attacks while others are more expansive, the concept of preemptively attacking groups and individuals planning attacks on you is certainly allowed under international law. Let's not forget that Pakistan had an obligation under international law not not harbor groups that are waging war on us.

OBL was living next to the Pakistani military academy in a army garrison town - it takes some extra-ordinary mental gymnastics to not consider that just maybe OBL was being helped and protected by the army or ISI. It shouldn't take much further thought to realize why asking the Pakistanis for help would not be wise.

A failed state is one with no functioning government - like Somalia, parts of Yemen, the tribal areas of Pakistan. There is no government there - not hard concept to understand.

There is no evidence that OBL was captured before being killed. If it did happen then it would be a crime. However, the SEALs are not obliged by the laws of war to provide him an opportunity to surrender - which is what I think what happened.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #75
98. "There is no evidence . . . " - ah, evidence, that quaint and obsolete
Edited on Sun May-08-11 04:09 PM by coalition_unwilling
notion that went out with the Geneva Conventions, rule of law, etc. The FBI's Robert Mueller said there was not enough "evidence" of OBL's involvemnt in 9-11 to merit indicting OBL for it.

That kind of evidence?

There have been reports of at least one eye-witness to the events (OBL's 12-year-old daughter) who reportedly told Pakistani investigators that OBL was taken into custody and then executed after being in custody. I know, not evidence and people I still respect like Glenn Greenwald have reacted with some skepticism. But if that report doesn't at least give you pause, maybe you and I inhabit different moral universes.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #98
101. Not enough evidence to indict but
enough of a reason, enough 'evidence' to summarily execute?

Wow. Just wow. Now I'm more than alarmed, I'm downright scared.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. Just so you know I'm not making this up, the following quotation
comes from a piece by Noam Chomsky:

"In April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it “believed” that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, though implemented in the UAE and Germany."

http://www.guernicamag.com/blog/2652/noam_chomsky_my_re... /

Entire piece is worth a read, imho.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. I never doubted you
but I am always grateful when people prove their contentions by quoting their sources.

I'll definitely peruse the magazine later (I Have heard of it).

Much appreciated, & bookmarked! :hi:
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #72
87. You act like Greenwald's essay is any more accurate than Bush's view on "enhanced interrogation."
Edited on Sun May-08-11 03:35 PM by BzaDem
:rofl:
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
20. Actually for many I think it is not "hand-wringing" over his death percee...
But it actually a visceral disgust at seeing America's fist-bumping and shouting "USA, USA, USA" over it.

Besides being obnoxious in a sort of tasteless, tacky way, it brings up memories of other reactions of this type such as after "Shock and Awe" and many, many other events.

It brings up memories of tawdry little 1 dollar flags sticking out of windows, yellow ribbons tied around oak trees and chants at sporting events when someone from another country competes.

Mostly it is bad taste, it is cheap and it is juvenile.

Call me a snob, but it is not how I think a "leader of the world" should act.

Oh, and also I probably don't need to add that it is scary on some level because I think we all know that there is a slippery slope involved and that extreme shouts of "patriotism" can often preface dangerous actions.

When we demonize someone, we can never really be sure what it will lead to.

Need I remind you that the US torturers at Abu Ghraib also thought that their prisoners deserved it because of their actions.

I am not saying in this case you are wrong. I am not saying OBL wasn't a monster. But the question is--what is the US? The US has killed hundreds of thousands in the last decade -if not more- and where is their shame and self-reflection for THAT?
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
61. President Obama
did, however, act in a serious, somber, respectful (& I don't mean respectful as towards OBL), statesmanlike way.

--what some of these people are doing are taking any criticism of the public, hypocritical displays of wild jubilation in the streets which we decry others doing as barbaric, even subhuman
as a rebuke against our President! Go figure. :shrug: You would think that sub-set would declaim the frat-party atmosphere and suggest perhaps people should follow Obama's lead! Oh, but no...


Others, so I believe, are being critical because they themselves reacted that way.


And personally, IMO the "Deather" slander used against DU'ers here is pathetic and patently untrue. Nowhere have I seen any doubt that OBL is indeed dead.
What I have seen is the desire for the U.S. to follow the Rule of Law, to practice what they preach so to speak; along with the huge benefit of being able to actually interview/interrogate bin Laden
--no, he wouldn't give up any future operations but we've got all those hard drives anyhow; still, he would brag, IMO, (and that bragging could or could not be released to the country & the world at the government's discretion)

We'd learn much in that way.
Very much!

Seriously, what are his wives (that we're 'so eager to interview') or children going to tell us? I don't think for a New York second that OBL shared operations with his wives. Their duty, y'know, is to bear children, keep up the household and to bring honor to him (or die!). He'd probably figure their poor female brains couldn't possibly comprehend! Why on earth would we think that his wives, and now we know even his children (as he stipulated in his will that none of his children were to join Al Qaeda) would be 'in on' any details regarding his evil schemes?

...the entire thing is just outright ridiculous.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
21. Your efforts are admirable. I don't buy it. 9-11 was a
criminal act.

You can't just ignore a crimnal case by slipping in and invading two countries for purposes of extracting known earth resources and extablishing bases using 9-11 to get the money, soldiers, support and billions in contracts for friends.

Congress didn't declare it.

Taking out bin Laden was not part of an act of war. It was/is rhetorical war.

The belief system that each person follows depends on who they believe was responsible for 9-11. The division starts there and has everything to do with why it will be rhetorical war for about half the people.

Even if its solved - it doesn't change the fact that Congress did not declare war. They were wishy washy representatives who took the money of the war lobbyists and thought long and hard how to pretend that they were approving.

This was step up in in the ruling elite plan. They don't give a damn whether it is/was legal.

I hope my cynical reply isn't the first. You did give your plea/accusation a great try.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. International law's rules on war are not dependant on congress declaring war
Once you take that part out of your argument, the rest falls down.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
56. Your wrong. US comes first and the two are attempted simultaneously. There would
have been no invasion if European countries hadn't helped out by a vague name of coalition partners. Some gave men, some allowed fuel stops for the CIA rendition jets. Some gave supplies, some gave torture prisons. Britain sold us an island group and shipped the natives out - probably for a pittance - Diego Garcia.

This has been a sick operation and if you can't or won't look at motives you won't understand my position and the position of many others.

Our Senators and Representatives cunningly betrayed us.

Why don't you provide the written law in priority sequence.

Why not ask Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schirmer et al how they came up with their 'work around' that made it look like it was official war?

I recommend that you write official war instead of just war. There are all kinds of wars. Official as already on the books.

Again, I appreciate your efforts, but not one proof put forward for you claim that it was official.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
63. No but
Edited on Sun May-08-11 01:01 PM by Cherchez la Femme
OUR RESPONSE IS!
For Goddess' sake, do we follow International Law over our own Constitution?!
:banghead:


Sorry, but dammit that deserved to be 'yelled'.




edit: syntax
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #63
89. Authorization for Use of Military Force September 18, 2001 Public Law 107-40
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. Jeebus, this has been gone over & over again
And you're still chewing that old bone.


Imagine, my nagging suspicion was right! Huh. :eyes:
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. It should be gone over and over again until you and others who deny its existance return to reality.
:shrug:
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. I listened. I researched. I stil do not agree.
Edited on Sun May-08-11 04:34 PM by Cherchez la Femme
Your argument(s) are worthless.

I'm not surprised your & my reality is different.
& after reading what I've seen of your posts, in fact I'm thankful for it.

edit: I reject this based on, in part: that Joint Resolution was done after the 9/11 attacks.
Just coincidence? Why didn't they change the Constitution after Pearl Harbor then?
IIRC, Democrats were all up in arms about Bush unilaterally declaring war -- weren't you? (Edit: This refers to, obviously, Libya).
Or is that OK now because it's a Democratic president?

Secondly, and logically from above: F*ck this Joint Resolution -- change the Constitution, then I'll abide by 'the law of the land', even though I may not 100% agree with it.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #99
118. Yes, the joint resolution was done after the 9/11 attacks. Do you really think that supports your
Edited on Sun May-08-11 11:55 PM by BzaDem
position in any way? Are you serious?

Our declaration of war on Japan happened... after the Pearl Harbor attacks. That tends to be when they happen -- after we get attacked. No change of Constitution required. We are attacked, and Congress acted, just like the Constitution required. Now sure, you might be really really mad that Congress acted, but that doesn't mean that Congress somehow didn't act. Reality doesn't change just because you deny it.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Rhetorical war? You either live in a bubble or ignore all evidence that doesn't fit into your box.
Capturing someone who is determined to kill as many of your citizens as possible is preferable but not always feasible.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #24
51. Yes, there is a war of words and threats. There is NO OFFICIAL war.
Edited on Sun May-08-11 11:44 AM by peacetalksforall
We are at war with Chavez and Morales - also - accompanied by intrusion in their sovereignty with our schemes and continual negative campaigns. Same thing - it is a matter of degree in pointing soldiers and weapons. There turn is probably coming as soon as resources are freed up. Both rich in gas and oil, plus other minerals.

Countries without resources get off easy. The motives of the ruling elite SHOUTS IT ALL OUT!

War on terror, war on AQ, war on Taliban, war on radicals, war on Mullas, war on Islam, war on Hamas, war on Hexbollay. Quite a list. In the meantime one of the campaigns associated with this declaration is that we lost tons of rights.

Why aren't any of you crying out about Obama and Habeas Corpus. Maybe some of you are.

Iran and Israel are at war with each other - they don't have a legal right to attack each other.

Call it what it is ======== pipelines and bases - EVERYTHING required to remove and transfer and ship out safely - on a permanent basis. (Oil - supposedly off the coast of Gaza.Israel)

Call it a corporate war. Call it a ruling elite war. That's what it is. We ARE the invaders because the ruling elite are panting for $$$$$$$$ and while getting the $$$, they want permanent control of people - everywhere.

At what point do we use hundreds and hundreds of the most advanced weapons in the world against people who have bombs, guns, and shoulder held missile launchers (purchased from whom through what channels?). Which country is it that grabbed innocent able bodied men from the streets in several countries including our own and put them away in secret prisons while they experimented with old ways to phish for intelligence - which is more about the safety of the pipelines and safe passage of their gold - than us.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
64. Agreed, but feasibility wasn't even considered. nt
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
106. Qualification:
I only mean I Agreed to the body of your post,
this:

Capturing someone who is determined to kill as many of your citizens as possible is preferable but not always feasible.
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pintobean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
22. That just flat out kicks ass. Very well done.
Now comes the rec/unrec war. Facts, logic, the law and common sense vs. emotional self-righteousness.
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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
26. Great post
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
29. Why, do you think, the Nuremburg Trials were held, rather than summary executions?
Why, do you think, the Israelis put Eichmann on trial?
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. The answer is so simple. I am surprised you dont see it.
The war between the US and Germany was over and we had captured those people at the end of it. Had the war been ongoing and there was an attempt by the US to kill those people to hinder Germany's war effort, it would have been completely legal. Just like the killing of Yamamoto and just like the killing of bin Laden.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #30
46. No Rules of Engagement permit shooting an unarmed enemy at point-blank range. Nor would the U.S.
recognize another nation's right to conduct a "war" on an individual within our borders. Nor is Pakistan a "battlefield" between the U.S. and Al Qaeda.

Nor are the questions these facts raise any form of "handwringing."

This was an extra-judicial killing carried out in the midst of an illegal incursion into the territory of a claimed ally.

The argument you are making, that the U.S. has unlimited authority to track down and kill a criminal, is Bush Doctrine.

The question before us is whether this is good policy. Whom else is the U.S. entitled to track and kill?

How will we respond when another nation decides it is "at war" with an American, and launches its military to kill?

Does this new policy of extra-juducial, borderless global warfare help us, or does it provide new ammunition for those who claim the U.S. Is no better, no more just, and no more dedicated to lawful conduct than those we claim to oppose?
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #46
55. Thank you. It was a 'hit job' and its defenders are really
Edited on Sun May-08-11 11:58 AM by coalition_unwilling
trying to defend the indefensible.

There are no U.S. statutes that permit agents of the U.S. government to execute individuals without trying to apprehend them first. There are many U.S. statutes that prohibit such behavior in one form or another, starting with U.S. laws against murder and moving up to Executive Order 11905, signed by President Ford and modified but retained by Ronald Reagan.

Defenders of this hit job want to have it both ways when it comes to EO 11905. On the one hand, they argue that 11905 prohibits assassinations of heads of state but does not apply here b/c OLB was not a 'head of state.' However, AND IT"S a BIG HOWEVER, we are 'at war' with al Quaida and its leadership. OBL was the head of al Quaida. True, not a 'head of state,' but that begs the question of whether you can be at war with anything other than a state.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #46
77. Recommending Post #46 by DirkGently ^^^
You summed it up perfectly, sir!
:patriot:

Unrecing the OP for the attempt to marginalize legitimate Constitutional concerns by labeling them as "Hand Wringing".
The OP more suitably represents the description of "Hand Wringing".



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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #46
78. You are wrong
the rules of war do not obligate soldiers to give an enemy the opportunity to surrender. They just can't kill him after he has surrendered. And in an age of suicide bombers, "unarmed" is not as easy to determine as it once was.

We can track down and kill any one who is actively plotting to kill Americans only when the country they are in is unable or unwilling to arrest them. It is impossible to argue that Pakistan would be willing to help us arrest OBL - either the Army or the ISI was actively helping him.

The message to the rest of the world is a simple one - if you don't knowingly harbor terrorists bent on killing Americans, you won't have any problems.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #78
90. Could you please cite the legal authority that allows the United States
to track down and kill anyone who is actively plotting to kill Americans when a government is unable or unwilling to arrest them? Thanks.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #90
93. Authorization to use military force, passed 9/18/01. As for international law, if you are asserting
that it is illegal, then it is your responsibility to come up with the section of the law that asserts that it is illegal (not the other way around). For example, if someone were to assert that riding a bike is illegal, I don't need to prove that it is legal -- you need to prove that it is illegal.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #93
147. Burden of proof for killing is not the same as bike riding. Again, what will WE say when another

country claims the same right? We already know: we'd condemn it.

That's the policy problem here. We don't want other nations asserting the right to conduct a "war" on individuals, with no regard to borders. Even less do we want to recognize anyone else's right to assassinate a criminal, even a terrible one.

The problem is that the "war" analogy doesn't fit here. Bush's interpretation -- that we're in a ceaseless, borderless war with anyone the U.S. declares an enemy -- is a nonstarter, or should be.

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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #90
108. Lets flip the question
Edited on Sun May-08-11 05:51 PM by hack89
what legal authority allows Pakistan to harbor a known international terrorist that is actively plotting to kill Americans? Are you saying that international law allows this? What happens when we find a gray area that international law doesn't fit? What's wrong with saying the country harboring terrorists is in the wrong?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #108
146. The answer is there is no legal authority that allow the United States to do that.
Pakistan is in the wrong but they are within their sovereign rights as well. The legal remedy is for the U.S. to sue them, not to go in there with guns blazing.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #146
148. Pakistan has the sovereign right to harbor and support terrorist
who are actively planning to kill Americans? Really?

If the Pakistani government is a willing supporter of terrorist organizations, why do you think they will respect any court's decision? Kind of hard to reconcile respect for law and international terrorism, don't you think?

We have the sovereign right to defend our citizens - preemptive attacks are not illegal.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. You are jumbling up what is legal, what is expedient and what is right.
And you are walking off a cliff while you're at it. Our observance of the rule of law has to be vigorous enough to protect us from a President Cheney or Palin. It's not something you allow to erode simply because Obama is in office. Because there will be another Bush or Reagan, you can count on it.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #149
150. You have yet to show the law that permits Pakistan
Edited on Mon May-09-11 03:33 PM by hack89
the right to harbor and support international terrorists with impunity. You really do believe even if it meant the further deaths of Americans, we were helpless to do something.

The law is not a suicide pact. If it cannot permit a reasonable response to real threat, it needs to be changed.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #150
151. I don't have to prove Pakistan is a sovereign nation, it is self evident. n/t
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #151
152. So sovereign nations can wage proxy war with impunity? Interesting.
Are you saying that they bear no responsibility at all for OBL's actions? If they were aware of OBL's activities, seems to me that they are waging war via proxy.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #152
155. You're shifting the goal posts again. n/t
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #155
161. No - you seem intent on making it impossible
Edited on Mon May-09-11 05:22 PM by hack89
for Pakistan to be held responsible for their actions as a sovereign nation. You think that OBL can live in Pakistan and plan to kill Americans with impunity - that even though Pakistan is supporting him, their rights as a sovereign nation prevent us from doing anything about it.

It is an absurd position to argue. We have the right to defend our citizens. Pakistan has an obligation to not support international terrorism.
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Zax2me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Because Eichmann wasn't running active Jihad
Got it yet?
Both killed defenseless civilians but Bin Laden was directing bombs to cafes and organizing new strikes on American targets.
Additionally -
His followers would have kidnapped Americans, sawed off heads then posted the videos on Internet demanding Obama's release.
It would be cute to think his jihad followers would simply stand by and allow the judicial process to go through.
Cute.
In reality they would kidnap every American within reach overseas, begin sawing heads with dull blades.
Obama did exactly what he knew had to be done to save lives.
Take Bin Ladens.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
67. Still, they captured him
they didn't summarily execute him. They could have, and I'm sure did, interrogate him to the Nth degree.
This 'smoke him out of his hole', 'Wanted: Dead or Alive -- nm, Dead!, 'shoot-on-sight' is BS and our country should take the high road.
Well, IMO anyways, but then looks like I'm among the minority who treasure Principle over Vigilantism.

I already addressed this urgent desire to interview OBL's wives in this thread, so I won't belabor the point(s) of how useless they will be in terms of 'fighting the War on Terra';
but I will say again because it's worth saying: we could have learned VERY much from bin Asshole, but we Jack Ruby'd him.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #67
82. Only because it was easy to track and kidnap him
Eichmann was not protected by the government of Argentina and hiding in a min-fortress with guards.

Do you think Israel would have hesitated to kill him if they felt it was their only reasonable option?
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #82
95. We had OBL's mansion under surveillance for months
and they didn't notice -- good on our forces!

Even so, we 'neutralized' his defense, his bodyguards. If we could have dragged his corpse out of there we certainly could have loaded him in the helicopter
probably much quicker than dragging out his body.


Your excuses aren't 'reasonable'.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. You are confusing two entirely separate situations. Eichmann was not at the time of capture a
Edited on Sun May-08-11 03:49 PM by BzaDem
combatant (declared or otherwise) against Israel.

Bin Laden, on the other hand, was a declared combatant against the United States, continuing to plan attacks on the United States and continuing to command an organization who is at war with the United States.

Two entirely different sets of law apply. The Geneva Conventions relating to kill vs. capture clearly only protect those who have either never taken part in direct hostilities (such as civilians) or have ceased taking part in direct hostilities (such as former soldiers turned civilians). That's the language of the Geneva conventions itself.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #96
103. *I'm* confused?!
:rofl:

Read the posts regarding not enough evidence to indict OBL, so truly, how was he then, in any possible logic,
considered a "combatant"?


Yet seemingly this was allll enough to start multiple, preemptive wars against countries (of course not Saudi Arabia, of which OBL was a citizen, right along with the vast majority of the 9/11 hijackers)
--and--
extra-judicially execute him for the very same crimes.

The crimes they couldn't indict on!


& I'm confused?!! LOLOL
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #103
117. With all due respect, I think your confusion may be a mock or
satirical confusion designed to lure defenders of the indefensible into revealing their hands. In other words, you are doing what Bush channeling Yosemite Sam promised to do with OBL and Mullah Omar: 'smoke 'em out' And I love it :)

On the other hand, you may be genuinely confused, but only because defenders of the indefensible must stretch ingenuity beyond its natural limits to make their case. Thus, OBL is endowed by them with super-human powers while at the same time requiring a 'human shield'. He is an 'enemy combatant' when they wish to deny him the protections of Geneva, but a soldier ('Field General' is how one DUer favoring the hit squad referred to him) when they wish to apply the laws of war to the situation. In short, their constant wishing to have their cake and eat it too results in twisting themselves into a Moebius strip of logic, an Ouroboros that ultimately devours itself.

They are hoping you will not bring your manifest analytical talents to their stock phrases and cliches. Don't let them get away with it.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #117
120. The only people that need to stretch ingenuity beyond its natural limits are the people claiming it
was not unambiguously correct and legal to kill Osama Bin Laden in his compound in Pakistan. Geneva does not prevent the killing of an unarmed combatant (enemy or soldier) in the absence of a clear surrender.

People who claim otherwise have to pretend that not taking a "direct part in the hostilities" is the same as taking direct part in the hostilities. It is entertaining to watch them twist themselves into a pretzel trying to justify the unjustifiable, but it has no bearing on actual reality.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #117
145. The second
wish I could be clever enough for the first :/

It also could be at least in part that I can no longer separate all our little wars: All in the M.E., all against Muslim states, all which have resources that are in "our interests". They're all lumped together for me, & you know what? I don't care. It's all BS and propaganda and hypocrisy IMO.
Add to that things that were bitched about --to high heaven about-- when Bush did it, these same things now taken up by a Democratic President is Okey-Dokey! Alll good, now! makes me want to heave. *Append the last sentence of previous paragraph here*

I think OBL was evil and I'm glad he's dead, but I wish it was done via our Rule of Law. Try him, convict him, *then* execute him (Yeah I know, sounds rather like:
'I'll be
judge, I'll
be jury,'
Said cunning
old Fury:
'I'll try
the whole
cause, and
condemn
you
to
death."
-- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland)

But hey, I thought Bundy was guilty before they tried him. Same with Gacy. And Dahmer. But I'm not an official, nor am I anyone important (& I'm so glad!)
So sue me.
They all of course got trials of course, not summary execution because we're a nation of laws. 'Oh, but OBL was an exception' some say... no, it's not about bin Laden! Our laws should not change per person. Either they're universal or they're not worth legislating in the first place.



I'm glad you mentioned this "human shield" though, I didn't see much of anything here discussing that.
First time I heard that I scoffed -- I knew that was a fabrication, a way overused and trite slander which I've only heard used against Muslims. Shameful.

Why try to make an already thoroughly evil man even moar evil? May as well draw a curly, evil mustache on his Wanted poster photo too!

When you embellish something like that to a narrative, you run the risk
--actually it's pretty much a certainty--
of drawing suspicion towards and devaluing whatever truths presented previously, or after;
to one degree or another.

But anyhow, the White House sat on the 'OBL is dead' story what? 3 days?
And they didn't, couldn't get their story straight by that time?

Lax, at best. Downright alarming they had such slip-shod Message Control.
Nor was the "human shield" the only fallacy we first heard from John Brennan (and others in the administration), in a changing 'official' story. IIRC there were more than a few "mistakes".

IMO this definitely helped "Deathers" and helped raise suspicion in the rest of the world.

Have we ever heard where Brennan et. al. got this info, or why they felt compelled to go beyond the truth to demonize OBL even further?
They could have just stuck with the initial story too -- what made them change their mind and *then* "tell us the truth"? :eyes:
See? It's a natural reaction.
Do they enjoy the pain when they shoot themselves in the foot? :shrug:

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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #103
119. Yes, that was my point. You (not me) are confused. Not sure how I could have been more clear.
Edited on Mon May-09-11 12:01 AM by BzaDem
This time, the confusion is that you think just because people can make posts on an Internet message board about there not being enough evidence to indict OBL somehow means there wasn't enough evidence to indict OBL.

When you correct for your false assumption, it makes much more sense. See how that works?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #95
110. In the age of sucide bombers
why is it reasonable to assume that he was unarmed?
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
33. K & R
:thumbsup:
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
35. K&R!,,, good insight
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
39. There are always excellent reasons for the empire
That's why those who oppose the High Church of Redemptive Violence must be dealt with harshly if not summarily. Violence WILL drive out Violence, and War WILL end War. So mote it be, in the name of the Missile, the Bomb and the Sacred Rifle.

It's too bad. I really liked the Constitution and its guarantee of rights for everyone, even the persons that everyone said were really, really bad. Sort of set the United States apart in some ways. But now we've joined the rest of the folks, sending our armed thugs star-spangled fightin' heroes all over the planet, makin' the world safe for exploitation, uh freedom.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. I am happy to address any arguments that directly refute any of my premises. n/t
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
105. Done and done
I don't consider it my fault that you don't see it.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
42. I don't know one single progressive/liberal in real life who is hand wringing over this
I see some on anonymous web sites. But that is the extent of it.

And this is explainable. Got to keep in mind that about half a million rocket scientists voted for Nader over Obama last election. Lot of those goof balls post on line. And in these peoples minds they are very invested in seeing Obama fail. So they can say told ya so. They are fucking idiots.

Don
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Well, the UN has asked for a run down of the facts on this execution.
They will approve everything but they had to make a gesture since they are entrusted with mediating questions of international law and human rights.

There are doubtless people who do wish Obama ill and want him to fail. But there are also legitimate questions that are raised in this situation which are not the province of internet goof balls in any way. And since Obama seems to be embracing the same rationale that Bush did, this will be a recurring situation because the same people who were against it when Bush was in office will continue to oppose it.


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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. I don't recall any UN investigation into the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq
Which casts doubt on the UNs credibility.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #54
70. The UN is a highly politicized body and I wouldn't trust them with my laundry.
lol
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
66. +10000000000000000000000
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #42
69. So are you for it or against it?
Nor do I think there are many, if any, true Democrats posting such on these 'anonymous sites' -- either a few are outright insane, or they're posting as RW paid trolls.

As for "rocket scientists": well, I've never voted for anyone but a Democrat. Ever. Nor have I gotten the impression that these many (again, if any) of damn Libruls who post here have either.
Nor, as claimed, have they 'sat out' elections; to wit: the 2010 election! Chalk that up to Independents, all coddled & sucked up to but who still didn't give enough bowel movements to bother voting!
The people who spread that fallacy around should be careful playing with such fire -- they themselves are far from fireproof.

But I am seriously rethinking mindlessly voting straight party-line because they're the lesser of two evils.
Evil is evil, to whatever degree; and I don't think I'm not falling for it anymore. Karma works, and the lathe of heaven turns, however slowly...

I'm carefully watching what's going on in Canada right now... if the New Democratic Party can force their backsliding version of our Democrats, the "Liberal Party" :puke: to slide back where they ought to be: IMO that's a very good thing.
It may well turn out, to use the expression, both: Teaching --and-- Learning Moments.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Read this
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #71
97. Thank you
Much appreciated.

Me, as 'Librul' as I am (& I'm mostly of the 'bleeding heart' variety), I AM for the Death Penalty for certain outstanding cases.
Serial Killers & officers-of-the-law/cop killers are what I mainly mean -- but only if the evidence is foolproof: Clear video, positive DNA from an unimpeachable lab that has no agenda;
certainly not based solely on 'eye-witness' or 'stool pigeon' testimony.


I wouldn't have lost a moment of sleep if Bin Laden was found guilty (with my above listed criteria met, of course) and sentenced to death.
And executed.

Not one bit.


But even then I wouldn't have cheered.
I have grave-danced a couple of times in the past, I'll sheepishly admit -- but felt badly about it immediately afterwards (I still think the sign "Hey Bundy! It's FRY-day" is funny; but then I'm a Monty Python fan so pls forgive : )

All in all I hope I learned my lesson.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
107. How many progressives\liberals do you know in 'real life'? I have
Edited on Sun May-08-11 05:33 PM by coalition_unwilling
read critical commentary by Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore and Glenn Greenwald, all 3 of whom I conisder leading lights in the progressive movement.

As for myself and my wife, we feel like Obama has abandoned us. We do not want him to fail but, I mean really, when he took investigations of the Bush Junta off the table in the interests of looking 'forward,' I'm not sure how to interpret that but as a failure in the larger metaphysical sense. I know I did not vote for giving the Bush Junta carte blanche. And this extra-judicial execution of OBL has thus left a taste of ash in my wife's and my mouths.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #42
125. Exactly. It's a point scoring troll.
Nothing else.
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Keith Bee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
43. K&R to THAT!
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
45. If they surrender it is a war crime to slaughter them anyway.
I have no idea if Osama surrendered. The case of the Japanese officer doesn't really apply as he was flying a warplane and did not attempt to surrender.

Being concerned that we may have murdered someone who was willing to submit to capture is not hand-wringing. The hand-wringing, if any, comes from those liberals that heretofore had been adamant in their insistence upon due process.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
47. +1
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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
48. It's not coming from just progressive, but those versed in international law.
What exactly is your background in international law?

And also dare tell me who has the power to declare war? Can any individual declare against a state? And if so what is historical precedent is there for a nation waging a formal war against an individual or an group? And if we are at war why has there been no declaration of war by Congress or authorization by the UN Security Council?

And are you really arguing there is no war in Iraq right now?
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
52. K&R! We were indeed at war with Al Qaeda.
Just like we went to war against the Barbary Pirates.

Taking out Bin Laden is essentially like taking out Yamamoto - we killed an enemy general, and enemy leaders are valid targets. We had no obligation to be the least bit nice about it.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
58. k&r
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
73. It isn't if we believe in true justice and not just vengeance.
Stop telling us what to fucking think about this anyway.

We managed to try mobsters without everyone shitting their pants.

But it isn't really about bin Laden. He is and has been for years largely irrelevant. But the targeted assassination stuff is something to worry about. There will be other, perhaps less justified killings. These things are done with no thought for due process. This Administration has a list of Americans targeted for extra-judicial killing. If you cannot see how wrong that is, you are just pathetic.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
81. bin Laden was planning killing of innocent people right up to his death.
Few times in history has killing a person been more beneficial to society at large.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. Most career criminals don't stop until their careers are over.
That isn't an argument for shooting them in the face instead of trying them.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #86
111. So the SEALs, who dropped in via Helicopter, not knowing
Edited on Sun May-08-11 05:46 PM by JoePhilly
what resistance they would face, or if the Pakistan military would show up, they murdered OBL.

That your position?

I mean, you can't just claim they "followed orders" ... right?

This might be a good time for you to start a 3rd party on this line. The Democratic Party won't be joining you on this path.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #111
122. Its interesting. Obama uses McChrystal's JSOC assassiantion program
but it's forbidden to call it by its name.

Those people were not there to serve a warrant.



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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #86
116. i'm glad people with your views are far, far away from the levers of power in the democratic party.
Edited on Sun May-08-11 10:40 PM by dionysus
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #116
123. Yes, because due process of law is to toxic to our culture.
LOL
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #123
124. The process guaranteed by law (domestic and international) to Bin Laden was a bullet to the head, in
Edited on Mon May-09-11 12:34 AM by BzaDem
the absence of an active attempt to surrender.

No one has yet posted what law says otherwise. Too many people are equating what they WISH the law were with what the law actually is.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #124
126. +1
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
100. Thank you for
stating so eloquently what many of us have been attempting to say. OBL was an enemy combatant, and a confessed international criminal who was killed while resisting capture.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
112. No hand wringing.. just tired of hearing is name...
Declare victory already and bring the troops home.

We have 5 wars going on right now.. and they want to steal Social Security to pay for them.

Even George Orwell wouldn't believe this.
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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
113. Outstanding. Thanks for this. nt
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-11 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
114. We shouldn't have gone into Afghanistan with massive military force,
The hunt for bin Laden and al Qaeda was more of a police matter, not a military one. But of course, the use only has the one hammer in its tool box, so every problem looks like a nail.

Our involvement in Afghanistan has been counterproductive. Yes, we have driven al Qaeda out of Afghanistan(into Yemen, the Sudan and elsewhere, are we going to invade them?), and we've killed bin Laden. But in the process we have killed thousands of innocents, laid waste to a country, and made far more enemies by these actions than we had before. Enemies that are now willing to work with al Qaeda and other such groups to strike back at the one who killed their sons, wives, daughters, namely the US.

As far as the reaction to bin Laden's death, I find the whole two minute hate aspect of it to be a sad commentary on our society. I do not celebrate death, not even the death of an enemy, and to display in such ongoing displays I find to be beyond distasteful, verging in to disgusting.

But now that we've officially gotten our man, and driven out al Qaeda, ie, accomplishing our original goals in going to war, let's bring the troops home, now. That might be the only thing that could make this display worthwhile.

But I doubt that's going to happen, after all, the MIC needs to be fed.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
121. I'm still waiting for a clear explanation.
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SoDesuKa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
127. A Fatwa Is Not a Declaration of War
Calling a fatwa a declaration of war is a silly argument. An organization of civilians is not a state; the most they can be is a gang. You're reaching for a way to justify the use of a hit squad, as if commandos were necessarily warriors because they are members of the military.

Only a state can declare war. Osama bin Laden is the lead criminal in a gang of criminals, not a head of state. If you want to proceed lawfully against bin Laden, you can't change his status to that of a soldier; you have to respect the fact that regardless of his own statements he remains a civilian.

The Bush administration made it plain that they were not going to be constrained by legality except if they chose to do so. For example, waterboarding is illegal; has always been illegal; and it can't be made legal because of novel theories. Similarly, novel theories can't change what is and what is not a war.

Neither Obama nor Bush has the right to decide which laws they'll obey depending on whether they can get somebody like John Yoo to develop a novel theory to support what they're planning. I hope you can see how dangerous it is to allow executives to make it up as they go along. Bush was notorious for that; and now, unfortunately, Obama is following his bad example.

We can't have government just winging it; there have to be constraints. In another post I compared Obama to Nixon, who also believed in winging it. Hit squads operate outside the law; and there's no accountability. Nixon started the "plumbers" unit to plug leaks of government secrets; but that led to his use of this gang to commit ordinary felonies. Nixon later claimed that whatever the president does is legal.

Do we really want to go down that road - allowing the executive to get away with whatever he feels like so long as his lawyers come up with some novel theory? It's not about whether Osama bin Laden deserves capital punishment; it's about whether the president has the authority to order commandos to kill criminals on his say-so alone. No, he doesn't.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #127
129. I wish I could recommend this response. I hope you will consider
turning it (or some semblance of it) into a thread of its own.

Supporters of the 'hit' on OBL fail for the most part to understand the grave slippery slope upon which they have embarked.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #127
130. "Only a state can declare war." False. Once you correct for that false statement, your argument
Edited on Mon May-09-11 03:03 AM by BzaDem
melts away.

Of course, you might dearly wish that only a state could declare war, but your wish is not equivalent to reality.

The only "silly arguments" here come from your post (the false statement about who can declare war, the false statement that the President doesn't easily have the right to order military action against a non-state actor, the bogus false equivalencies between Obama and Nixon, etc).

The "novel theory" here appears to be that the law is somehow equivalent to what you wish the law were, rather than what the law actually is.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
128. Your comparison to Yamamoto is inaccurate. Not quite the same thing.
Not unless you believe OBL was in charge of Pakistan.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #128
131. But that assumes one can't go to war against a non-state actor, and that is a false assumption.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #131
132. No that doesn't. One was the military head of state during wartime.
The other was a non-state actor killed during a time of peace (with that country) without sanction or warrant by said country. Maybe you need to assume what you want to believe, but that doesn't change the facts. It has nothing to do with false assumptions. Those are the facts.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #132
133. That's like saying we couldn't have legally killed Hitler because he wasn't the head of Japan.
Edited on Mon May-09-11 03:11 AM by BzaDem
The distinction you bring up is just as irrelevant as the distinction between the head of Germany and Japan. Of course you are correct that Bin Laden was a non-state actor, and that is a factual distinction (non-state actor vs. head of state). But you are incorrect (as a legal and factual matter) if you claim that distinction is somehow relevant in any way to the legality of going after Bin Laden.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #133
134. Wrong.
Your assumptions are strange and irrelevant. You can believe whatever you want to, the facts speak for themselves. It is all relevant in the way we conduct business legally or illegally with other nations. Keep trying...
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #134
135. Says the person who cannot marshal one section of a single law that proves his argument.
Edited on Mon May-09-11 03:15 AM by BzaDem
You are the one claiming that there is a distinction between state and non-state actors that is relevant in the resolution of the legal question, not me. It is up to you to prove that statement (which you can't, because it isn't factually accurate). Likewise, if I were to claim riding a bike is illegal, it would be up to me to prove the statement.

If you have a section of domestic or international law that says that we cannot use military force against a non-state actor who is a declared combatant (in a time of peace with the country of residence), I would love to see it.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #135
136. You fail to grasp the facts in this matter.
Edited on Mon May-09-11 03:17 AM by Rex
There is a huge difference between state and non-state actors when it comes to the legal question of what we can and cannot do to other nations. Maybe someone will sit down and explain it to you. The fact that this goes over your head is not my fault.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #136
137. The fact that you can't identify a SINGLE law to support your argument is your fault, at least if
Edited on Mon May-09-11 03:21 AM by BzaDem
you would like to be taken seriously by people interested in facts.

Of course, you have the first amendment right to say basically whatever you want, but your inability to identify support for your legal argument is most certainly your fault (not mine). If what you are saying is true, and the fact that Bin Laden is a non-state actor makes his killing illegal, you would of course be able to identify a law and a section of that law that says so. Yet you continue to avoid doing this. I wonder why.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #137
138. LOL. I stand by what I said that Yamamoto and OBL are two different
cases...the fact that you cannot understand the reason why is due to your lack of understanding. Not my fault it goes right over your head.

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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #138
139. Yes, you essentially quote yourself because you can't identify a single law that depends on the
distinction you are making.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #139
140. Between a head of state and a citizen of a country?
Edited on Mon May-09-11 03:28 AM by Rex
I don't have to...most people with a basic understanding of just about anything know there is a distinction. Are you saying you don't?

EDIT - you don't know how legally the head of the military during a time of war is distinctly different than a civilian that lives in a country in a time of peace as pertains to what we can and cannot do when it comes to killing someone?

That is what you are actually saying?

If so I find you to be ignorant or incredulous. I really don't care which.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #140
141. The question is not whether there is a distinction (there is). The question is whether the
Edited on Mon May-09-11 03:28 AM by BzaDem
distinction is relevant to the legal question of whether we can kill Bin Laden vs. whether we can kill Yamamoto. The answer to that question is no.

If you disagree with this, and believe the answer to the above question is yes, surely you would be able to come up with a law and a section that says we can't kill a non-state actor with military force in peacetime with the host country, but we can kill the commander of an army of a state in a time of war with that state. Yet you continue to avoid the question, a question for which if you were correct you should surely be able to answer.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #141
142. You are rambling.
I see this is a waste of time.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #142
143. If I were making an incorrect statement about the relevancy of a distinction, I would also find
Edited on Mon May-09-11 03:33 AM by BzaDem
attempting to justify my statement a waste of time (particularly after being asked 4 times for a single law to justify it). After all, there would be no law, so there would be nothing I would be able to say to justify it.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
144. Kicked for the Monday crowd n/t
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
153. k&r
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elias49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
154. You MUST have better things to do than start another devisive thread!
It's becoming nothing but agitation.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #154
158. Well, I can correct the spelling of people who don't have much to offer in the way of debate...
It's dIvisive
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. I actually thought that yours was the best thought out
and best written defense of our government's actions. I didn't agree with it, but I still thought you did a good job.

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elias49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #158
162. Meh. When I see a thread like this in the G/D forum
I smell a pissing contest.
I can go to I/P for that.
Ugh.

BTW I've posted several times on the topic you belabor.
I'm ready to move on.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
160. Please define "Progressive" as you use the term in the OP please.
I'm getting tired of this bullshit of calling out "Progressives"
when you could insert any of these in your diatribe:

"Bleeding Heart Liberal"
"Wild-Eyed Liberal"
"Latte Liberal"
"Peace-nick"
"Hippies"

The Progressive Caucus in the House is our largest caucus.
I don't see any of our Progressive Representatives
"hand wringing".

I identify as a Progressive, and I'M NOT hand wringing.
Neither are the majority of Progressives that I see posting
on this board.

Discussions are GOING to occur.

Some "hand wringers" are progressive, some are conservatives!

They have a right to "wring", and their opinions in this matter
are just a valid as anyone's.

A post like this is FLAME-BAIT.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #160
163. You only had to read the first sentence.
"False moral equivalencies, cries of extra-judicial killing, all of this and more has been the reaction to the killing of Osama bin Laden by a particular segment of the Progressive left."

A PARTICULAR SEGMENT of the Progressive left. Not all, not most, a PARTICULAR SEGMENT.

Generally, I define progressivism the way Wikipedia does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism_in_the_Unite...


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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #163
164. Check your OP again. You contradict yourself. nt
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #164
165. Keep telling yourself that. n/t
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
166. Well said and thanks
A day or so ago the argument took the form of OBL apparently having some "special status" as a commander. Alternately it was that he was "unarmed and offering no resistance". When it was pointed out that lots of other commanders have been killed without trial or any notable due process in this conflict, and just as surely many have been killed who were "unarmed and offering no resistance" as cruise missles have no capacity to accept a surrender, the argument has now moved on to "but Pakistan is not a war zone".

It is clear and well documented that we have been engaged in predator strikes and other lethal actions in Pakistan against "terrorist leadership targets" since sometime during the mid Bush Administration. So my question must now seek the subtle semantic distinction between a "war zone" and other places where we using overt military power to kill people. There is apparently some imagined difference philosophically, although I am sure the bullets and bombs seem pretty much the same to the folks on the receiving end. This should require some rather interesting mental gymnastics.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
167. i'm as liberal as they come -here. i'm also good with OBL getting whacked
:popcorn:
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