Have People Strayed Away from the Real Purpose of Education

[nxt1]

I am curious to see what other people have to think on this issue which is hotly debated. College is now much more of a social event, 4 year long sleep away camp, for many students then it is a place to learn. Is it worth the 100+ thousand to send your kids to a sub-par university if they are going to end up partaking in unskilled labor anyway? Is a college degree the new high school degree?

[XemaSab]

1. What do you think the purpose of college should be?

:shrug:

[nxt1]

2. To get an education

learn useful skills and hopefully learn enough to give back to society in a valuable way that makes the thousands of dollars more than worth it

[IntravenousDemilo]

8. Basically, the purpose of a university education is to teach kids to think.

A university shouldn't be regarded as a trade school or a community college. We already have trade schools for the purpose of learning job skills. A degree in Fine Arts or the Humanities is just as valuable as a degree in Business Administration, and I'd even venture to say that a Master's degree in Economics has about half the intellectual heft of a Bachelor's degree in History.

Education is there simply for its own sake, for people who find joy in learning. Universities exist as places for the broadening of the mind and the development of critical thought, and everything else is just fluff.

[notesdev]

16. But if they were really doing that

then the kids might actually start to think critically about the obscene tuition and other costs they pay.

Face it, universities today don't want people to think, as that would crush their business model.

[IntravenousDemilo]

17. Perhaps I'm just being nostaligic...

... for when I went to university back in the late '70s and early '80s. It could be that universities back then didn't mind having its students think critically only because tuition fees weren't quite as obscene as now. (Mind you, textbooks were as ridiculously overpriced for the time as they are today.)

I find it sad that society nowadays thinks of education as a business rather than a pursuit or a calling, and the same goes for medical practice. It cheapens them.

[themadstork]

40. Case in point:

A couple years ago Butler brought a lawsuit against a student for authoring an anonymous blog that was critical of the admin. They also engaged in something of a smear campaign, sending mass emails about how awful he was, etc.

[hfojvt]

68. that seems like a technical and economic definition

are "useful skills" really the same as knowledge?

Here's what Danny boy said even expanding on knowledge

"Knowledge does not comprise all which is contained in the large term of education, the feelings are to be disciplined; the passions are to be restrained; true and worthy motives are to be inspired; a profound religious feeling is to be instilled, and pure morality inculcated under all circumstances. All this is comprised in education." Daniel Webster

As an economics major, I think you should read the almost Nobel prize winner EF Schumacher, his chapter on education in "Small is beautiful: economics as if people mattered" says

"The task of education would be, first and foremost, the transmission of ideas of value, of what to do with our lives. There is no doubt also the need to transmit know-how but this must take second place, for it is obviously somewhat foolhardy to put great powers into the hands of people without making sure that they have a reasonable idea of what to do with them. At present (1973), there can be little doubt tha the whole of mankind is in mortal danger, not because we are short of scientific and technological know-how, but because we tend to use it destructively, without wisdom. More education can help us only if it produces more wisdom." p. 82

Paul Goodman wrote is "Compulsory Mis-education" 1962

"Fundamentally, there is no right education except growing up into a worthwhile world. Indeed, our excessive concern with the problems of education at present simply means that the grown-ups do not have such a world." p. 58

[WinkyDink]

78. "learn useful skills" is the mission of a trade school.

[NeedleCast]

84. Hank Hill?

Is taht you?

[Quantess]

3. Fuck you if you're trying to tell me college students are lazy sleep abouts,

which it looks like you're telling me.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue-Jay]

46. Please go on.

Fascinating.

[nxt1]

48. You disagree?

Are you in school right now? Have you observed the average college student?

[Quantess]

52. You just told us you are in college, right now.

So, you are observing yourself, masturbating with cheetos.

Thanks, but YOU are not like I was in college, asshole. I would hate me too, if I lived like you allege college students are living.

[nxt1]

53. Once again there we go

Mr. Generalization- I'm observing the students around me during my undergraduate years. Get off your high horse and start listening.

[Quantess]

71. So, once again, you don't actually know.

You are just guessing how college students live.
And you are going to accuse me of being a lazy lay-about, while I was studying so hard I was barely getting a full night's sleep.

I'm a woman, not a Mr. And you are the one who needs to get off his high horse.

[Blue-Jay]

54. Are you answering for your friend?

I asked your partner and/or alt to continue. Not you, junior.

[nxt1]

56. I think it is a pretty undisputed point

And am fairly confused at your inability to see it. Any college student could tell you that the vast majority of college students are lazy. It just isn't a big secret.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. Lazy? Compared to what? And what makes NON-college students NON-lazy?

Oh, and a tip: "Animal House" was fiction.

[Quantess]

72. And what have you accomplished in your life?

Besides mounting a big monument to Rush Limbaugh in your garage.

You are an ignorant assshole, and I am fairly confused at your inability to see how brainwashed you are, you idiot.

[Quantess]

74. Jealous assholes like you are fairly easy to figure out.

You're dumb, nobody likes you, and you couldn't be accepted into the Big University of your choice. Too bad, so sad.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

70. Check this out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=1060157#1060174
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=1060563#1060588

[demmiblue]

83. Wow... not very bright!

:rofl:

[xmas74]

57. I'm in school right now.

I also work a full time job and raise a child on my own.

Some students are lazy, living off of their parents money. Others, like the ones I work with, are not. I know some who work two and three jobs while taking a full load of classes. That's not lazy.

[nxt1]

58. yes

You know some who aren't lazy- you also know many who are. I never said all college students are lazy just a large number are.

[xmas74]

61. I wouldn't even call a large number.

I would call the so-called "lazy" ones a small minority. The majority are not. Most of the students do care about their grades. Many also have jobs that assist in paying for their education. Quite a few work a job off campus and have a work study on campus. That's not lazy by any means.

It's a state college and far too many come from families who cannot afford to pay their way. That's a luxury for a very small minority at my school. I'd never refer to my fellow students as lazy.

[nxt1]

64. I don't go to state university

-Most of the students at my college did not have jobs- campus jobs were saved for international fin aid students probably about 5-10% of the student body worked a job most of these were 4-6 hrs/week
- We go to different schools. I went to what is called the best school in America- I would refer to many of my fellow students as lazy.

[xmas74]

66. Then we have much different views on education.

I would say that my school is one of the "subpar" schools that you referred to earlier, yet the students here are grateful for what chances they have at an education.

Maybe your fellow students were lazy but the average college student is not. It seems to me you have no idea what the average college student is like because you haven't had an average college experience.

In other words-quit generalizing.

[jpak]

76. I guess writing was not a skill they taught at that so-called "best school".

:rofl:

[jpak]

75. LOLOLOLOL!!!111

what horseshit

:rofl:

[plumbob]

4. Which subpar school gets $100k for a degree?

My daughter just graduated from vet school - total bill $60,000. 5th year earnings for new vet docs averages $250,000, and that's here in Texas, a notorious low wage state.

She keeps animals healthy, cures the sick and injured and sees the terminal out with no pain. I think that's okay.

[exboyfil]

10. $250K for a Vet Science

Wow. When my daughter was looking at Vet Science salaries, the starting salaries were lower than those with a B.S. in Engineering. Wish your daughter the best.

I think the poster was just trying to get a charge out of folks. The best colleges and students are every bit as good as those 20 or 40 years ago. I know the High School academics and demands on the top students are much greater than when I was in school 30 years ago. Many kids are taking Calculus in High School along with other AP and/or college courses.

[nxt1]

22. Here you go

And I agree the best colleges and students are every bit as good as those 20 or 40 years ago. However, with the availability of attending college widening tremendously, there are also an entire wave of students who really do not appreciate/get the most out of their college experience. Additionally, because of the huge numbers of students attending college these days, a college degree is worth today what a high school degree was worth in the 50s. It is tough to get any sort of job without one. And finally, I think the focus of students has been lost and many choose to pursue a degree that is the easiest- perhaps the reason we have more students graduating in exercise science then in engineering. You tell me which one is more valuable?

[exboyfil]

28. Being an engineer I would say an engineering degree

is more valuable than an exercise science, but that is not to say that someone with an exercise science degree can't fit into an economic niche and perhaps do even better financially than an engineer.

The egalitarian approach of the U.S. means that we are not deciding early on who is going to college and who is not like many European countries. We are trying our best to make college accessible to everyone. I don't think we have enough resources to pull this off in the long term though, and I feel that our resources should direct towards more economically beneficial majors. The problem is that it puts the government in the role of deciding winners and losers just like it is dangerous for the government to do this in business. China and India have very few of what we would consider the "soft" majors (think Liberal Arts or progressive social majors). You have a concentration of doctors, IT, and engineers with some business thrown in for them. I doubt they have very many individuals majoring in traditional humanity based liberal arts and even fewer majoring in the newer progressive majors (their equivalent of Chicano Studies might be Tibetian Studies for example).

What I think we need in the U.S. is a third way. I want my daughters to major in hard sciences/engineering as undergraduates (they both show aptitudes for this and have an interest in Science and are good enough in Math). At the same time I want them to work their strongest artistic/humanities skill (for my older daughter it is video editing and photography and for my younger daughter it is writing). I found Florida's "The Rise of the Creative Class" to be inspirational but implementation is still a bear. The greatest gift you can pass onto children is the ability to think for themselves. Take almost any topic and explore it with them. For example I have my 7th grade daughter reading "Whatever Happened to Penny Candy" right now for Economics Homeschooling. We talk about the deficit, debt, inflation, recession, and the different economic systems. I am soon moving onto globalization, and we will be discussing what this means for her in the world. I feel that has far more meaning than coloring maps of the Silk Road which is what her 7th grade peers are doing now. That is information you can get in any textbook. A far more important discussion would be what does something like the Silk Road mean, why does it exist, and what happens when it gets cut off (as the Muslims did during the Middle Ages). Such a discussion can spin into what happens if our Middle Eastern oil is cut off or a nuclear power disaster demonstrates that the cost benefit ratio of nuclear power has not been correctly calculated.

[LetTimmySmoke]

30. Until the engineer's job gets outsourced.

[nxt1]

18. Well I'd be happy to give you plenty of examples

If you want them-

Look at private colleges in Illinois and Wisconsin- For example Carthage College in Kenosha costs ~40k/year. I would call it a sub-par college

[xmas74]

59. It is what you take from it.

I've known plenty of people with degrees from Carthage who have made comfortable livings. My cousin is an example and she paid nowhere near the 40K/year price tag.

Smaller private schools often offer more financial aid opportunities, bringing down the price of tuition.

[joshcryer]

5. Public school teaches you to follow authority.

College teaches you to question it.

Frankly I think it should be the other way around.

[Quantess]

6. I ask the OP what is "the real purpose of education" and I expect an answer.

Otherwise, you are a lightweight.

[cachukis]

13. I think the OP might have referred to an article such as this:

How Much Do College Students Learn, and Study?
By JACQUES STEINBERG


A new book, “Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses” (University of Chicago Press) by a professor at New York University and another at the University of Virginia, attempts to answer questions like these in a systematic way — and, as its title suggests, its findings suggest reason for concern.

In the book, and in an accompanying study being released Tuesday, the authors followed more than 2,300 undergraduates at two dozen universities, and concluded that 45 percent “demonstrated no significant gains in critical thinking, analytical reasoning, and written communications during the first two years of college.”


http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/17/academically-adrift/

[nxt1]

19. I gave you an answer

were you unable to read it

[Quantess]

31. I actually am a college graduate, with a masters degree in a program that had 19% acceptance rate.

Sorry about your feelings of inadequacy, in the intellectual field.

I don't need to explain to you how hard I worked. I don't need to explain to you the sacrifices and hard times I went through to get though college.

And no, you didn't offer anything of substance, at all. Not yet, anyway. I apologize for being rude earlier. I need to be more aware of people who are dealing with deep seated insecurities.

[nxt1]

32. Some of you people on here

Take words and then generalize them to everyone. I didn't state an absolute I never called out you for not making sacrifices and working hard. Stop being so narrow minded and think that possibly the statement could apply to someone other than yourself. You aren't a victim. get over yourself. I'm a grad student right now working my tail off too--I wouldn't write something like this and say nobody was working hard in college.

[Quantess]

35. So now you're backing down?

Good idea, asshole.

[nxt1]

43. What are you talking about

Cleary the amount you worked in school didn't pay off if you can't comprehend a short paragraph.

[Quantess]

47. Heh. I figured it would have been deleted by mods before you ever saw it.

But then, there you go again, attempting to insult my intelligence because I don't completely agree with you. When you insult my intelligence...that's what inspires me to write with profanity. If these rude words are too sensitive for your "beautiful mind", reminiscing Barbara Bush, then I'll make an exception, and accomodate.

[nxt1]

49. You got it all wrong

Your intelligence was never insulted until you felt personally offended at comments that were not directed toward you or anyone in the DU community. You inability to see that perhaps a point would be aimed at something larger than yourself is your flaw.

[Quantess]

60. No. You chose to make it personal.

Asshole.

[tkmorris]

45. You are completely out of line

If you disagree with the OP's premise you would be better served in arguing your case instead of doing your (impressively accurate) impression of a barroom bully. Somewhere along my way through college I learned the value of civilized discourse with others, even though we may vehemently disagree.

[jpak]

77. I hope your graduate degree is not in English

:rofl:

[dionysus]

42. you win the thread.

[gauguin57]

7. All my young relatives who have been in college recently got a LOT out of school.

They're all coming out with useful degrees and contacts in their fields. And all of them have enjoyed themselves socially and have gotten to know lots of different people from different cities, countries and walks of life.

You get from college what you put into it.

And I do think that college serves as an incubator for your life in the wider world ... you have to learn to organize your time and set priorities, and you get to know people and have experiences outside your comfort zone. It's not all about studying.

[nxt1]

20. I was not stating this as an absolute

And there are plenty of students who do come out with useful degrees and contacts in their fields. There is also a large minority that come out with a meaningless degree and may just as well have not pursued it.

[themadstork]

9. Of course we have

The admin here at Butler could care less about the critical, aesthetic, analytic, and imaginative development of its students. They want the rich brats' dough.

There are still many profs with an authentic love for learning, but if one is determined to it's not hard to graduate college without ever developing as a thinker.

[BadgerKid]

11. Intellectual and social broadening beyond isolated high school.

Whether that's worth 100k to you or not probably depends on you and your family and values. Many who don't get accepted, or who cannot afford all four years, do a few years at a community college and then apply to transfer in.

[tammywammy]

12. I'm in university now

A private school, I'm spending no where near $100k, and it's definitely not a "4 year long sleep away camp."

[Taitertots]

14. You didn't go to college did you?

They won't pay $100,000+ unless they go to a highly regarded private college. They are likely to pay half of that.
They are highly unlikely to work in unskilled labor.

College is a social event and a place to learn. The importance of learning how to live and work with other people is absolutely important in work and in life.

[nxt1]

21. I graduated last year

From a pretty decent school paying 55k/year. I can tell you for a fact that even a good amount of the kids who graduated alongside me did not make the most out of that 220,000 education and spend more time trolling bars in downtown Boston rather than making use of what the school had to offer.

[dionysus]

44. bitter because you feel ripped off. that clears it up nicely.

[Quantess]

73. Doesn't that give me even more ammo to say FUCK YOU

I don't make nearly that much money. I have a Masters Degree and I made $10 per hour, last job I had. Don't worry about me, asshole, I have another country to go to.

[Vanje]

82. Your graduated classmates troll the Boston Bars

and you troll a liberal discussion board. At least you're wearing socks!

[MH1]

15. It has evidently failed one of its real purposes

which is to teach the correct use of 'than' and 'then'.

:evilgrin:

[jp11]

23. Yes, for many it is, they go because they have been sold the line

that a college degree is the key to the future and higher earnings. Many aren't up for college or will get little if anything from it other than a degree that will be used simply to fill a blank in an application, college degree, check.

[nxt1]

24. Exactly

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Volaris]

27. don't know if my experience will add to or remove something form the discussion...

but here it is anyway....

My exp. with my education so far is that I learned HOW to think at a relatively young age (relative to other people, it seems) and a college or university education is supposed to be very field specific. I was enrolled in college earlier in my life, but since I had no idea what field I was interested in, I was wasting my time. I say this because while even the basics (College Algebra, Comp., etc) are required, I had no interest in learning them until I had a greater goal in mind, and those classes then became stepping stones to the things I REALLY wanted to learn, and then I was happy to take them and pay attention to the course material.

A few other thoughts on this topic.....
....There is a difference between High School General Biology, and even a year One college Anatomy and Physiology class.

...IF a college degree is to be the new high school diploma, the market will start requiring Masters level work for even an entry level position, I.E., not everyone WANTS a college degree, not everyone NEEDS a --field specific-- college degree. Not everyone will agree with this, but I know that for ME, even if I had to run fryer at a burger joint for the rest of my career, I would feel immensely better about having to do that job if I knew I had a degree in my pocket (not as a condition of having that job mind you, but just as a personal life accomplishment. and as an aside, I think that a person should be able to have a good life and be able to build wealth even IF that is the only job they ever have, but thats another thread)

...Carl Sagan was right when he said that our species not only NEEDS but DESERVES a basic understanding of how the universe works. Its my opinion that that kind of GENERAL education should be affordable to anyone who wants it, regardless of age or economic status. If you're 18 or 50, (or 60 or 70) and you want to learn about astrophysics, you should be able to enroll in that class (maybe not at Harvard, I'll grant that) at any Community College in the country for a minimum fee. Learning should NEVER be cost prohibitive, or ONLY available to those who have a specific career in mind. I think the advent of technology (the internet) makes this possible. I think that if you are a university professor at a State institution, part of your contract is that we can put all of the lectures you give, all of the classes you teach, online for all to see, free of charge so that knowledge can be disseminated to all who want it. (but if I want transferable CREDIT for it, I had better be willing to pay for the class and work to pass the tests.)

...We have to start teaching critical thinking skills at a MUCH earlier age than we do now. I don't care if my daughter graduates High School WITHOUT a working knowledge of Cartesian Proofs, if she has learned how to to LEARN, how to STUDY, and how to do her OWN research and thinking she can go learn Cartesian Proofs anytime she damn-well chooses. And those skills are not ones that one forgets.

...Teaching to the test is the opposite of actual learning. Every smart kid I know figured out LONG ago in life that on most modern academic tests, the answer to a question you don't know is very likely IN THE TEST SOMEWHERE ELSE. Process of elimination by logical inference will get you a C on that sucker at least. The ones who know this already don't NEED to be taught to the test, they can figure it (the test) out on their own.

...Over-diagnosis of ADHD is (not in ALL cases mind you) a cop out. ALL young children (boys especially) are almost by definition ADHD, its how their brains work. Its WHY a 3 year old can LEARN in a way that a computer processor can't. Biologically, a human child is not evolved to sit still and listen to something that bores them, until their BRAINS have acquired a measure of adult-level self control. Kids need room to run.

Thats my 2 cents. If its not even worth that to you, feel free to say so=)
Peace

[themadstork]

39. As someone with ADD,

trust me life is miserable going untreated. Parroting the anti-ADD line does not help much imo.

[Volaris]

79. that was not my intention. I know people who have it

and I would never disparage their plight in order to make a point. over-diagnosis of the condition, and medicating those who DON'T need it, only makes it harder for those who's lives are honestly affected by it. thats all I meant by bringing it up.

[themadstork]

80. Is it overdiagnosed?

I guess I confused your position with the "it's not a real disorder" peeps.

do people fake it just for the adderal? I switched to a non-stimulant that takes almost half a year to really start taking effect, and in this past month I think it's really been kicking in! Love not having the weirdness of the stimulants

[Volaris]

81. I am most definitely in the camp that its a real disorder.

As far as it being over-diagnosis, it may not be so much so anymore, but all of my siblings are grown adults now, and the people they used to interact with in the academic setting that I'm using as my baseline we don't have any real contact with anymore. For that discussion, I think we would have to seek the opinion of someone who still finds themselves IN that environment everyday. Was Just an opinion based on PAST experiences.

And hooray for you for meds that actually do what they are supposed to do. =)

[riderinthestorm]

29. With the shifting economy in the past 3 years, I'm not sure anything's a sure bet anymore.

For example, my 23 yr old graduated last May with a masters in archaeology. Typically, this is a "sure thing" career - about as certain as an MD or forensic scientist because in Europe especially (and she majored in medieval archaeology to be specifically employable in Europe), it's the law that an archaeological survey must be done before any construction is permitted. So archaeologists are like surveyors, engineers, and other required fields that generally have guaranteed job security.

Except the bottom dropped out of the economy and there's no construction. So field archaeologists are laid off just like civil engineers. Did she party and socialize in school? Yes. Did she graduate first in her class? Yes. Can she find a job? Hell no.

So even "skilled labor" aren't landing jobs either in this economy. Does she regret her choice of profession, even though she's working in a book shop and teaching riding lessons on the side? Not yet but maybe someday soon if the economy doesn't pick up.

I don't think it's possible to make hard, cynical conclusions about "education" right now. What may have seemed dilettante in the 70's,80's, 90's (learning critical thinking skills like history, philosophy, lit, pure math) isn't any better or different than those getting a degree in skilled labor in these times.

[Blue-Jay]

33. Why do conservatives hate education?

That's a better question, since you're in the "just askin' questions" mood tonight.

Blown cover is blown.

[nxt1]

34. You should take a look at yourself

When did I say I had a problem with education. read what is written and stop jumping to conclusions like an ignorant child. I said that people go to college now and forget that they are there to learn and are there paying high tuitions to learn, and instead come out with a meaningless degree and end up in the unskilled labor sector. I'm a economics grad student at Brown- why would I not promote education when I'm currently being educated myself?

[JTFrog]

37. More like being schooled. n/t

[dionysus]

50. i heard that. +1

[Blue-Jay]

38. I didn't say that YOU said that, did I?

I said that Republicans hate higher education. They like 'em stupid, don't they?

[dionysus]

51. someone's slip is showing. (and it ain't yours)

[Blue-Jay]

55. This one's an amateur.

[JTFrog]

36. Indeed.

[Blue-Jay]

41. .

[sudopod]

62. I think there's a problem with your question.

College was never meant to be job training. That can be included, but higher education is citizenship training most of all.

They go to learn about Shakespeare and Jefferson and Einstein, about anthropology and philosophy and chemistry, about the long series of struggles, tragedies and triumphs that make up the whole span of human history. Though some colleges charge too much, to ask if this is ever not worthwhile is answered with a resounding "no."

[nxt1]

63. So you are promoting

A liberal arts education- not a college where one can pay a high tuition to go into what is essentially job training- pre-med, pre-law, athletic training, etc.

[sudopod]

65. Even those degrees require horizion-widening classes and experiences at any

university worth the title.

As an engineer, I have many colleagues who would have benefited from more of that!

The tendency of commentators, especially those on the right, to condemn college as wasteful and expensive job training is at best confused, but most likely a disingenuous assault on a perceived center of liberal political power.

[xmas74]

67. This is what college should be about.

It's what I've always dreamed of college being about.

Instead, my experience is more job training.

[H2O Man]

85. Tomb-stoner!

[demmiblue]

86. Not very bright, considering his education. n/t