Columbia professor arrested for incest with daughter

[cowcommander]

Source: CNN

New York (CNN) -- Police arrested a Columbia University professor accused of having a three-year long sexual relationship with his daughter, officials said. David Epstein is charged with one count of incest in the third degree, according to a statement from the Manhattan District Attorney's office.

The alleged sexual relationship between Epstein and his biological daughter -- now 24 years-old -- took place between 2006 and 2009, the statement said. He could face four years in prison, if convicted. His attorney Matthew Galluzzo said Epstein is innocent, claiming the charges are "unfair and unwarranted."

"He is a respected member of the academic community and wishes to thank his friends at Columbia University for their continued support throughout this ordeal," Galluzzo said.


Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/12/10/new.york.columbia.p...

[ZombieHorde]

1. I wasn't expecting the alleged incest to begin when she was 20 years old.

Isn't that unusual? Don't most incest cases involve children?

[No Elephants]

6. Minors are the most vulnerable, but MacKenzie Philips is an example of

incest that---as far as the victim recalls, anyway--began in adulthood. And Marilyn Vanderbur is an example of incest that continued into adulthood.

[seabeyond]

86. what we all mess out on is the years as a child and teen in manipulation,

conditioning, behaviors that were involved in this relationship. it might not have stepped over the line to intercourse, but probably, possibly there have been years of play

[ZombieHorde]

99. Excellent points. nt

[guruoo]

2. Two consenting adults. nt

[No Elephants]

7. I hope that's sarcasm.

[Rebubula]

58. Do not think so...

....creepy and not something that I could do, but it should not be something that puts a person in jail and ruins their life.

Now...the school should run him out and social shaming is OK with me - just not legal punishment for two consenting adults.

Unless there is more to the story, I file this in the same stack as moms that breast feed 6 year olds...creepy and not my thing, but meh.

[snooper2]

77. you took the saying "incest is best" to heart didn't you

[Poll_Blind]

3. I could see this law, when applied to two consenting and mentally competent adults, being...

...unConstitutional.

Seems like a case of two consenting adults.

PB

[Mist]

5. That's what I was thinking---the law may be overturned concerning consenting adults? nt

[No Elephants]

Good grief. no.

[No Elephants]

8. No, anymore than when a 10 year old "consents" to sex./

Some relationships are simply inherently so unbalanced that true freely given consent is a fiction.

That's why the law doesn't care about whether a ten year old or your son or daughter "consents."

[hardcover]

9. I don't think it can be looked at as consenting adults.

It's similar to sexual abuse by clergy, doctors or therapists. The person in the position of trust has a psychological advantage over the other. It's not something to dismiss lightly. In this case, it is even worse than a professional betraying that trust. The father is and always has been an authoritative figure in the daughter's life, giving him an even greater psychological advantage over her. Consider too, that he has the mindset for incest and he was influencing her thinking and beliefs all of her formative years.

[no_hypocrisy]

40. + 1 and welcome to DU

Agreed. It's the quality of the pre-incest relationship that determines the harm or lack thereof.

It's irrelevant whether the victim is an adult if they shared a father-daughter relationship since she was a child.

And no, hypothetically, I don't know what the standard would be if the same couple never were together (e.g., he didn't know she was born) and met later in life after she was an adult.

[Arrowhead2k1]

4. Consenting adults sure, but....

EEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWW!

[whathehell]

37. Agreed...This is truly repulsive...as in "sickening". n/t

[connecticut yankee]

50. Disgusting

[whathehell]

51. Yup.

The word "depraved" comes to mind as well.

I'm still waiting for the "incest apologists" to weigh in. I will be happy, though, if my wait is in vain.

[No Elephants]

10. ONE count? Three years, one count? How does that happen. For a sexual relationship to be said

to have lasted from 2006 to 2009, wouldn't there have to be a minimum of two counts, one in 2006 and one in 2009?

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Stupid law. Why wasn't the daughter charged?

[No Elephants]

12. The law refuses to recognize "consent" in some cases--and for very good reasons.

I can't believed how messed up this thread is.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. So both should have been charged? Neither?

Why is this thread "messed up?"

[Capitalocracy]

14. Apparently the idea is that there's an inappropriate power relationship

in other words, a parent inherently has a level of influence over a child, theoretically, or at least more responsibility to say no... I'd say it's worth looking at the specifics of the case, but it sounds fairly reasonable to me. I'm certainly not willing to just declare it unconstitutional off-hand, although I see where you're coming from.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. There is a huge problem though.

They are, supposedly, both consented to the relationship. The issue then becomes the prosecution would have to prove the father had some form of undue power/pressure over his daughter. This begins to border on rape, not consent. Would this be treated differently if it were brother/sister, sister/sister, brother/brother, cousins...at what point does 'consent' lose its meaning? There are often relationships where balance of power is questionable, and not just in cases like this. With doctors/lawyers, such relationships are considered ethical violations, but are rarely prosecuted outside of civil courts.

Many of us may find this type of relationship unseemly, disgusting, or a variety of negative things, however, it doesn't mean it should be illegal.

[aquart]

21. And you don't think "consent" can be the result of power?

Are you fucking serious?

[Behind the Aegis]

22. You bet I am fucking serious.

"Consent" can be dissolved and then it becomes what....NON-CONSENSUAL.

[cali]

30. these cases aren't all that unusual

the older party is usually the one prosecuted.

And in cases like this (and I've seen them) the father has usually been molesting his daughter for years.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Then, it is an imbalanced law.

If, the case is related to child molestation, that is something different. They aren't the same. If he had been abusing his daughter before age of consent, then stopped, and resumed an incestuous relationship, other laws apply. It becomes a nightmare to prosecute if the statute of limitations (for child molestation) has passed.

[cali]

33. maybe. I don't think so

and I don't think you know much about judging from your comments on this thread. There can be no real consent in the case of a 40 something father and and a 19 year old daughter.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. You seem not to know much by your comments.

You are basing your comments on unavailable information and your own bias.

"There can be no real consent in the case of a 40 something father and and a 19 year old daughter."

Says you?

[Recursion]

59. Umm

The issue then becomes the prosecution would have to prove the father had some form of undue power/pressure over his daughter.

That would be "being her father".

[Name removed]

17. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snooper2]

Because fucking your kids is something society frowns upon

clear enough for you now?

[marshall]

120. Society has specific rules about who can fuck whom

If you don't pick the partner society approves of for you, you are considered abnormal.

[rhett o rick]

61. How disappointing that you find this thread "messed up". Life may not be quite as cut and dried as

you might like. This is an excellent discussion.

[Romulox]

93. The charge isn't rape; "consent" isn't the legally operative fact, therefore.

It is degree of inter-relatedeness that determines whether this is a crime, full stop.

[Democat]

18. Because all women should be treated as "victims" according to some people.

Watch how many people on DU will say that this girl is a victim without knowing all of the facts.

I wonder if they said the same thing when Bill Clinton and Monica were in a relationship?

[No Elephants]

19. BS.

My view would be no different if a son and Dad or a son and Mom were involved.

And watch how many people on DU will say that this girl is not a victim without knowing all of the facts.

[Celebration]

57. +1

[ehrnst]

43. Not the same thing. To say that there was an imbalance of power in this relationship

is accurate, not exaggerated.

[rhett o rick]

60. So your argument is that relationships shouldnt be allowed if there is an imbalance of power?

And just how would we measure power imbalance?

[ehrnst]

101. Perhaps the way that it's measured by psychologists that ban

relationships between client and therapist.

[blueamy66]

73. Well, I make double what my fiance makes.

Do I have power over him? Is our relationship non-consensual?

She is and was an adult. No charges should be filed.

[ehrnst]

47. This would apply to mother and son just as well. (nt)

[WinkyDink]

66. Clinton is not blood-related to, let alone the sire of, Ms. Lewinsky.

[pitohui]

105. as president he might have been slightly more powerful than a mere intern

c'mon, the argument is ridiculous, a 52 year old father does not have all that much power over his 20 year old daughter, weren't you ever a 20 year old girl? did you do ANYTHING your dad wanted you to do at that age, that you didn't want to do? i sure didn't, not gonna happen, nope, no way...that's the age when young women have been breaking away and being independent for YEARS

if we're going to pretend that all women are helpless ninnies and can never say "no" to power, then we have to recognize that bill clinton, at the time considered the most powerful man in the world, as the american president, probably had more than a little power over lewinsky

and you know what? she was a grown up and she was happy for the attention and only a crazy person (or a person w. an agenda) would pretend that it was rape or abuse of power

as for the father and daughter scenario, who knows if it's even true, and if it is, sure, it's distasteful but to put the guy in prison for having sex w. a consenting adult of age 20 is just ridiculous in my view

let her sue in civil court if she has a cause of action or if she was raped, let her prove it...but if it was consented to and the charge is incest, well, it takes two to tango, they both committed the incest and both should be arrested for the incest...but instead of arrest, a better idea would probably be some mental health for both these turkeys if you ask me

[La Lioness Priyanka]

72. yes, imagine thinking that a child raised by a man willing to have sex with his child

may otherwise have been subject to abuse. such misandry.

[Alcibiades]

96. I agree

It is possible, though, that he didn't raise her: the article is careful to say this was his "biological daughter," not simply his daughter. Why? For a tenured Columbia professor, Epstein is quite young: this girl must have been conceived while he was in college or grad school. Maybe he didn't raise her. Maybe, when she turned 21, she decided to look up her famous dad.

Whatever the circumstances may have been, this could never be acceptable under any circumstances.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

100. had this been mother and child, i would have supported prosecution for just the mother too

its weird to think that the child in this case, is as responsible as the parent

say she did go try to find her father, and realized she could win his love only by sleeping with him, what kind of father allows that?

there is a dynamic between parent-child relations that is very significant and should not be discounted

[LisaL]

113. His age is listed as 46. Hers supposedly is 24.

If those numbers are correct, she was born when he was 22. So not a teenager, likely finishing college/entering graduate school at the time. There are plenty of people in college/graduate school who have children/sometimes multiple children. Especially considering he is male so it's not like he needed to take time off for delivery. So I fail to see what evidence indicates she was adopted out.

[whathehell]

88. But then again, according to "some" people...

no female of any age should be considered a "victim"...at least not if some man is "enjoying" her.

[WinkyDink]

65. Have you heard of "parent-child"? The former is FOREVER considered the authority-figure.

[treestar]

94. Maybe a deal, due to agreeing to testify against him.

[Statistical]

121. Lack of consent.

The law is written because of the inherent uneven balance of power between and adult and a child.

Now the actual event may have occurred when she was an adult but where did she get the idea? Likely a lifetime of influence by her father. Maybe dear old dad isn't into pedophilia it is still incest.

The law is written that child can't give consent but there is no unfair influence on the parent from the child. The father could give consent (or lack of consent).

[trud]

15. ewww

There's of course a very high ewwww factor here, but if they were both consulting adults it's no one else's business. That said, I think a 20 year old should not be considered a consulting adult in these circumstances. I was 20 millennia ago, and although kids are older younger these days, a 20 year old is still quite vulnerable.

[hardcover]

20. I agree, a 20 year old is very young and still very much dependent

on her father for mentoring and comfort. The courts really don't have to prove anything about his hold on her. It's a given.

[Behind the Aegis]

23. So basically, rewrite the laws of consent where your morals are offended.

[Prophet 451]

26. Huh?

20 millenia ago, there was no such thing as an age of consent. Two millenia ago, girls were considered capable of giving consent as soon as they were physically capable of sex (generally thirteen or thereabouts). In the USA of 1880, the age of consent was generally around 12 and one state (Delaware) set it at only seven.
Read some history and you'll learn that the British/American definition of being able to give consent at 16/18 respectively is actually quite recent. Not to say that our age limits are unreasonable but far from being "older younger", kids today are kept younger for longer.

[trud]

41. 20 millenia ago

I was 20 years old millennia ago. Your interpretation depends on incorrect grammar.

[Prophet 451]

24. What an odd case

There's several things here that I find unsettling. Obviously, first and foremost is the "Ewwww" factor but the law in question makes several assumptions that I think need to be examined (disregarding teh biological dangers of incestuous breeding which doesn't seem to be a problem here).

Firstly, this wasn't a child we're talking about, this is a grown woman. If we assume that a child cannot ever consent to sex with a parent, are we not then assuming that the two people involved can never be equals? And if we are saying that (and as someone has already started the slippery slope argument), where do we stop? Can we not say that relationships between people of different social or economic classes are inherently unequal? Relationships between different races? In fact, aren't most human relationships inherently unequal, no matter our best intentions? When consent is freely given (which we have to assume because the linked article has very few details), are we not placing ourselves in a patriarchial position to forestall that? In effect, when a woman says "I want to have sex", do we as a society have a right to remove her decision from the equation by saying "No, you don't"?

Secondly, the fact that only one party was charged with a crime assumes a complete innocence on the part of the other party. Perhaps the other party is entirely innocent (the linked article contains few details) but, if so, teh crime would be rape, not incest. The fact that the charge is incest rather than rape assumes that the sex was, at least in theory, consensual.

Thirdly, is a prison term really warranted here? In the days before we learned to control our fertility, I could see the point of a prison term, but now the dangers of incestuous breeding have been removed, what societal good is prison going to do? There is no deterrent here (and it's highly questionable if prison terms act as a deterrent at all), the theoretical victim doesn't seem to need safeguarding as she can just refuse consent in future (if he refuses to accept that, it becomes rape and that's a different matter) and even if this man has other daughters, teh chances of him even being in a position to commit incest with them are now zero. So what is to be gained by a prison term?

[Behind the Aegis]

25. +1 !

Well stated! Seriously,

[Prophet 451]

27. Thank you

I find it helps to examine the presumptions in such cases before making a decision about them.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. Your's is the best post in the thread.

Logical, practical, and you actually read the article, scant as it is. Most people will have an opinion, usually negative, about such a story; however, it doesn't mean the charges are just or the law justifiable. The mention of the "slippery slope" is also important, as it seems some here want to redefine the meaning of consent on a legal and basic level.

[Prophet 451]

29. Oh, my opinion was negative too

I read the article and my initial response, like most people's, is "Ewww". But I learned a long time ago that a world based on the reactions of my gut would be a deeply unpleasent place. I'm not suggesting answers to any of teh questions I asked but I think they are questions that we as a society, need to puzzle through in such cases.

Again, thank you for teh kind words.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. Right there with ya!

For me, it is somewhat different. Still had the "ewwww" reaction but, I am gay and have seen my orientation placed in the same "vice." Age of consent is still an issue for many gay people the world over, so are our very relationships. I know it may seem unseemly to compare the two, but this is between two consenting adults, whether we agree with it or not. I also look at the disparity...why wasn't the charge applied to the daughter? After all, the charge of incest doesn't have anything to do with 'consent,' but rather the act of copulating with a close relative, which is exactly what the daughter did, by definition.

[cali]

34. No, we're not assuming that they can never be equals

and your comparison of this to two people of different economic classes is patently absurd. And no, it's not that odd a case. You're hearing about it because he's well known in certain circles. When I was victim advocate in the state's attny's office, I handled 2 such cases.

[Prophet 451]

39. Hang on

Firstly, you can't just state that a comparison is "absurd". You need to explain why it's "absurd", otherwise it comes off as just dismissing something you don't have an answer to.

Secondly, if we assume that the two can be equals, then on what possible basis can we justify criminalising their relationship (discounting breeding, that's a different thing). Incest laws were originally based on the dangers of in-breeding. Since that's no longer a danger, what's our remaining justification?

[muriel_volestrangler]

56. You are asserting the daughter can never consent, so therefore you claim they are never equals

You did that in your previous post, #38: "There can be no real consent in the case of a 40 something father and and a 19 year old daughter"

And, if you think the daughter can never consent, but the father can, then you are asserting that they can never be equals.

[cali]

68. No, they're simply not equal in this specific part of their relationship

how do you think something like this happens? It's invariably the result of grooming/earlier abuse by the adult

[muriel_volestrangler]

82. "not equal in this specific part" means "not equal"

especially since "this specific part" is the all-important legal one.

'Invariably'? No, I don't know that. It is possible for a 20 year woman to decide to start a sexual relationship with her father without grooming or abuse. It may be perverse, in our and society's eyes, but adult women are capable of deciding to be perverse. They're capable of deciding to kill, too, without grooming by anyone else.

We don't know enough of the circumstances of this case to be able to tell. Perhaps she was groomed. Perhaps she decided, as many people do around that age, that she didn't agree with society's conventions and laws, and that she could have a sexual relationship with her father. We don't know, but I don't think your blanket "this must have been because of grooming or abuse" is at all justified.

[TexasObserver]

38. Good analysis.

Is this a troubing story? Of course.

Should it be the subject of a criminal prosecution? Probably not.

Absent a showing that the adult daughter lacked the mental capacity of an adult, this is sex by two consenting adults. Would the law against incest survive a constitutional challenge, though? Probably.

[trud]

42. prison term

You seem to be assuming the only reason for a prison term is as a deterrent. There is also punishment. I mean, suppose person A kills person B for some very specific reason. Does A go free because the reason is unlikely to occur again?

[Prophet 451]

44. Ok, but...

Even if we assume the reason is punishment (and we're coming very close to societal revenge there), on what rational basis are we dishing out punishment?

[distantearlywarning]

71. Thank you for this very rational post.

Best post in this thread.

[eShirl]

36. ew, but it shouldn't be a jailable offence if it didn't involve a minor and was otherwise consensual

[stray cat]

45. Should it be legislated between adults? What if it were 25 year old siblings?

[FreakinDJ]

46. It started when she was 21 years old

[Doctor_J]

48. I wondered why this would generate such Big Media hoopla

Google David Epstein Columbia, and the first hit is a link to the American Spectator. I won't click on their link, but the little scrap on the google page calls Epstein "an enthusiastic supporter of Barrack Obama". This will be the main story line

[SlimJimmy]

49. More information at link ...

Generally, in cases like this involving "consensual activity within the home," it comes down to the question of whether the government has "a compelling state interest" in regulating the activity. "Some courts recognize that the government does have an interest in regulating incestuous conduct because of the risk of pregnancy and the heightened risk of genetic defect," he says. Other courts will convict even without such a risk: In Ohio, a sexual battery statute states that a stepparent should never have sexual contact with a stepchild (and that is regardless of age). Most courts are concerned about parents preying on their children, he said. "Regardless of the age of the child, there's still a theory that a parent is always a parent, a child is always a child and, as a result, there truly can't be a consensual sexual act." That explains why the daughter isn't charged in this case. "The idea is the perpetrator is the parent and the victim is the child. We don't normally prosecute a person falling within the protected class, and you remain a member of the protected class even above age of consent."

http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/2010/12/10/incest/...

[sulphurdunn]

52. Every society needs some taboos,

incest and pedophilia should be at or near the top of the list. There are some black and whites. These are two of them.

[AngryAmish]

54. Because the thought makes you uncomfortable?

Some people get the same uncomfortable thought when a crucifix is spat upon. But we should not jail just based on disgust. If there is no realistic chance of breeding (we don't know that here) then criminalizing consenting sexual arrangements is difficult.

[WinkyDink]

64. You post as though you are unaware of the concept of "cultural mores".

Suppose the story was of George W. Bush having sex with Jenna?

[whathehell]

85. How "comfortable" are you with the thought?

[AngryAmish]

87. Very uncomfortable

But disgust in sexual matters is a poor way to make law that put people in jail. There are pretty of fundys uncomfortable with two men having sex, but one would not want them jailed, no?

[whathehell]

90. I'm glad to hear it.

but I'm afraid that I DO believe that a 19 year old cannot give "full consent" to a father likely at least twice her age...and this "taboo" was in place back LOOONG before the "law of fundies".

[proReality]

53. There are no details...how can this even be discussed? n/t

[cowcommander]

55. Well, for starters here's the picture of the father and daughter

4chan took an interest in this story too and found them.

[Rebubula]

62. 4chan or not...

..there is NO way that the guy in that picture is the father of the girl.

4Chan is a fun place to wander into - but do not stay long...

[cowcommander]

69. I dunno, it looks like him when he was thinner

Here's his Faculty info from Columbia University, with a picture of him looking fatter



http://www.columbia.edu/cu/polisci/fac-bios/epstein/fac...

[LisaL]

115. But the woman looks to be in her late teens early twenties and the man

in the photo looks to be not just thinner but also a lot younger than Epstein's presumably current faculty picture.

[rhett o rick]

63. Interesting topic and I am disappointed in those that think the topic doesnt deserve discussion.

As I see it, these are the questions that arise: What does the law actually say? Does the law reflect what society believes in now?

I think we can all agree that minors should not be taken advantage of by anyone. But why does society care when people are adults? The power argument doesnt seem plausible to me. Who has the power, how much power (how to measure). And what other relationships have power imbalances, e.g. teacher/pupil, pastor/church member, etc.

[SoCalDem]

67. "the ordeal" & "respected member of the academic community"..

He did not all of a sudden start a relationship with a 20 yr old daughter.. good riddance to him..

[WinkyDink]

70. Do some people NOT GET that the parent-child relationship has SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES, AND THUS TABOOS??

From ancient times, we have had SPECIAL words for the MURDER of one's father or mother, beyond the generic "homicide."

We have ancient myths WARNING US of the results of, even UNWITTINGLY, breaking the taboos of patricide and mother-marriage.

To sire or to bear, and then to have sexual relations with, a child, however old the parties are, is to break the bonds of civilized human cultures.

As the unfortunate mother of the adult Oedipus realized, before her suicide.

[Schema Thing]

74. The law against incest has nothing to do with "power" or "consent"

It has to do with public health. And possibly some "ewww" factor.



oops...meant to respond to the thread.

[whathehell]

116. "Possibly" ?.....The taboo is universal and ancient and in place

I suspect, long before there was a concept of "public health".

[Alcibiades]

75. Epstein is a big name in political science

Epstein and O'Halloran (his wife, now ex-, BTW) (1999) is already a classic in the study of Congress--one of the 20 or so books I had to read in my Ph.D. seminar on Congress.

http://www.amazon.com/Delegating-Powers-Transaction-Pol...

Good book.

At any rate, this is never, ever OK. I don't care if you're 70 and your daughter is 40. There is a special relationship between father and daughter: it is a sacred trust, not to be abused. This is an extremely smart man who ought to know better. There is no set of circumstances under which this is ever OK.

[pitohui]

106. what special relationship? they speak of "biological" father

for all i know the guy's a sperm donor, which makes him one of a million other creeps who dumps off some sperm and the kid (who he has never seen as a kid) is dumped off for adoption and then they meet as adults and she's one of those screwed-up adopted kids (we've all known the type, the kind that uses being adopted as an excuse for being a sociopath) and she thinks it would be wild to get it on with her "father"

we don't know, my made-crap is just as believable as someone else's made-up crap about a guy carefully "grooming" a child for 20 years before he actually gets it up and sticks it in (like any pervert worth his salt ever waited 20 years to get laid!)

all we know is we don't know the whole story but IF the crime is incest, they're both guilty

if the crime is rape, charge him w. rape don't soft-soap it

[WinkyDink]

119. He's her father. No "sperm donor", no "adoptive"---her FATHER. And the "special" simply means that

Daddies and their little girls bond often in that "my little princess" "Father Knows Best" way.

And the offspring of whatever age is legally the inferior in power, and so NOT EQUAL IN GUILT.

[AngryAmish]

76. What everyone is dancing around is the comparison between this crime and adult homosexuality

One of the bedrock principles around here is that people are free to choose whatever adult sex partner that they wish to, including one of the same sex. I know I do.

Three of the arguments against legalizing same sex relationships (let alone gay marriage) is that 1. it's gross - ewww factor discussed above and 2. in our tradition homosexual behavior is against our cultural mores and taboos and 3. it is a slippery slope to allowing adult incest.

Well, here we are.

I prefer to stand on the side of sexual freedom - it is no damn business of mine what two adults choose to do in private (and public as long as naughty bits are not exposed). My disgust at certain actions (eww factor) would be a terrible judge of how to regulate society - or else Notre Dame fans would be jailed. We make our own traditions and what is once taboo - interracial relationships - now is the basis of my marriage.

As long as there was no children created - I think that should be a crime in incest cases. But what people do is what people do.

[NashVegas]

78. Funny, I Thought We Were Dancing Around the Big Hedge Fund Guy Who's Not In Jail

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2010/10/memo...

I suppose you might be thinking, now that you've managed to have your attorneys wipe your Wikipedia page of the disturbing record of your sexual behavior, that your story has faded into the background and you can plague me with this deposition nonsense without consequences.

Think again, Braveheart Boy.

I found out the other day that you've appealed a judge's decision after he agreed with me that I shouldn't have to testify in your pathetic legal action against your former fifth wife. In 2007, our writer interviewed that wife and now you're trying to drag us into court, saying that merely talking to her violated the conditions of some no-doubt sadistic gag order you had her under.

But we both know why you really want to get me under oath. You have never gotten over our 2006 article that outed your years-long sexual relationship with one of your daughters, which culminated in the bizarre "wedding" you had with her in Westminster Abbey.

I'm guessing that by now you've managed to get yourself back into the good graces of your hedge fund buddies who maybe didn't hear that little tale the first time around. And with Wikipedia scrubbed, you must figure it's time for a little payback in the form of some old-fashioned gratuitous lawyer-harassment.

[Alcibiades]

80. I trust that you don't have any daughters?

This is completely different from a gay or interracial couple. I have a two year old daughter. She's beautiful. I change her diapers, dress her, and keep her clean. It's not simply that it makes me uncomfortable to think that a man would have "a relationship" with a girl he had raised: it's fundamentally wrong. It's an intimate relationship: to turn it into a sexual one is to completely pervert what is one of the most beautiful things life has to offer. My daughter gives me sweet little kisses, and has me wrapped around her little finger: one of the things that makes the relationship between a father and a daughter so compelling is that it is chaste and innocent. At the same time, I'm helping her to grow up into the woman she should be, hopefully the best woman she can be. I am the most important man in her life at this point, but part of the natural course of things is that I will be supplanted by someone else. Hopefully, if she wants, she will have children of her own, that she can cherish as I have cherished her. I don't think that a woman who has had a sexual relationship with her father is fully capable of that, and I say that as someone who was raised by such a woman (or, at least, that's what my mother has always claimed).

I feel for this young woman. She can never have a normal life now: some things you cannot put in the past. Her father is/was an academic superstar (though I see Columbia has already taken down his impressive C.V.). Now, wherever she goes, she will be the beautiful girl who had a sick incestuous relationship with her father.

You protect your children and cherish them. You don't have sex with them, ever, under any circumstances. I normally hold that most conventions are artificial, and can stand in the way of human freedom. Some conventions, however, are wise, and the taboo on incest is one of them. Epstein lived in New York. There are literally millions of women with whom he could have had an appropriate relationship. I don't think the incest prohibition was really stifling for him, or any other man who isn't deranged.

[pitohui]

107. it said he was his biological father, there's no evidence he raised this girl

most of the time when we're talking "biological" fathers, it means some creep who dumped off his sperm somewhere and the child was adopted and raised by SOMEONE else

sounds like he was a dog, not necessarily a pervert...

1) we have no reason to believe he ever saw this person as a child or ever changed any poopy diapers to begin with, there are plenty of "biological" fathers out there who wouldn't even recognize their own children

2) it's questionable whether someone should be put in a cage, because they had sex w. another adult (age 20 is adult like it or not) just because other, outside parties think their relationship is creepy

[LisaL]

97. A parent child relationship doesn't stop just because a child

turned 18. Especially these times, a lot of people still materially support their children long after these children have turned 18. A lot of adult kids are still dependent on their parents, especially if the go to college, etc. So to say, well now the kid turned 18, so it should be o'key to have sex with your own kid-I don't think so.

[NuclearDem]

79. Currently loving this thread

"Hey, none of us know the full facts of the case, or the relationship that the guy had with his daughter! Let's all pass judgment now!"

[conspirator]

81. Father daughter incest is more common than is publicly known. I am not shocked

Certainly not a crime if both are consenting adults.

[cali]

83. er, yes it is a crime.

that's why he's been arrested.

[conspirator]

95. Not a crime according to my good sense. I am not saying is a good thing either

The code of laws if often wrong in sexual matters

[whathehell]

84. And your conclusion is based on...?

I think I speak for most here in stating my hope that it's not "personal experience"

[LisaL]

91. Incest certainly is a crime.

[seabeyond]

89. just a thought. to look at a child as potential sex partner has to create certain behaviors ....

i wonder what the upbringing was. i wonder what the conditionings, and behaviors were duing the child rearing. this did not jsut manifest at 20 yrs old. it may not have developed into intercourse prior to 20, but i have to figure that there is something there in the parenting.

a parent has ultimate control adn power over a child. and abused child often/always goes to the abusive parent even when another choice is available.

to consider that it was a normal upbring and boom, at 20 she wants daddy and vice versa doesnt seem like it would work to me. feels like the lines had already been crossed, to work to conclusion

[Romulox]

92. The incest taboo is one of the most ancient in human civilization.

It has not a thing to do with modern ideas about gender, rape, or "consent" (see the extended discussion, above.)

[marshall]

98. A case of "Genetic Sexual Attraction"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction

The man is referred to as her "biological father," which suggests he did not raise her. It sounds like a classic case.

[LisaL]

110. He could be referred to as her biological father

to indicate they are in fact related by blood, such as he wasn't her step-father.

[WildEyedLiberal]

102. I am repulsed and thoroughly unsurprised that DU thinks incest is a-okay

[seabeyond]

104. and you thought YOU were a wild eyed liberal, lmao.

i tell ya

here, i am a rw conservative. yet my brothers and fathers call me a flamin liberal

so confusing.

[Rebubula]

109. Do not think...

...that anyone here is saying incest is A-OK.

What some people, myself included, is that consenting adults having sex is MUCH different that a father\mother having sex with a 12 year old child.

Unless I hear that there was coercion or other parts to the story - I am on the side of 'stay the heck out of their creepy business'.

It is creepy and nothing that I would ever engage in - but if they are willing participants and no coercion or blackmail is at play - so be it.

[Vickers]

103. Of all the chicks in the world, he picks his DAUGHTER?

[pitohui]

108. sounds like she picked him...adopted child seeks out "biological" father, hilarity ensues

they're both creeps and losers but this doesn't belong in criminal court...

[LisaL]

111. Whatever makes you think she was in fact adopted.

The term biological father could simply be used to state that they are related by blood such as the girl is not his step-daughter or adopted daughter.

[WinkyDink]

117. There is no "adopted" here.

[cleanhippie]

112. Not that I condone this relationship, this IS a relationship between adults, right?

How can there be a criminal charge for this?

[LisaL]

114. Because incest is illegal.

[WinkyDink]

118. See my post #70. And drop the disingenuousness.

[Liquorice]

122. I feel so sorry for his daughter. He must have been abusing her for years. nt