Is Poverty the Key Factor in Student Outcomes?

[proud2BlibKansan]

Michael Marder prefers pictures to words. A sentence can be constructed to support any position, but data cannot be so easily dismissed. Lately he's been looking at data about public education in Texas, and his findings have suprised him.

Marder, it should be noted, has a vested interest. In addition to being a professor in the University of Texas' department of physics and a member of their highly regarded Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, he is also the co-director of the university's UTeach program, which focuses on preparing and encouraging university graduates to become secondary math and science teachers — a boost of which the state desperately needs.

The UTeach program, which began in 1997, and is now being replicated around the country at universities in Tennessee, Colorado, California, and Texas. As more of his graduates head into the world of secondary education, Marder has become increasingly interested in the classroom environment. He wanted to find out how much did teacher quality matter and how promising the charter school movement and others actually were. He's compiled many of his findings on a website with movies, charts, and more on issues ranging from teachers' unions to school accountability systems.

In the popular 2010 documentary Waiting for Superman, former DC schools chancellor Michelle Rhee said, "But even in the toughest of neighborhoods and circumstances, children excel when the right adults are doing the right things for them."

After looking at the data, Marder has yet to be convinced that any teaching solution has been found that can overcome the detrimental effects of poverty on a large scale — and that we may be looking for solutions in the wrong place.

more . . . http://www.texastribune.org/texas-education/public-education/is-poverty-the-key-factor-in-student-outcomes/

[dkf]

1. Then how is it possible that China has risen out of poverty using education?

Maybe it's not poverty but the mentality of American poverty. Maybe the poor of other countries are actually the hardest working so when you give them access to education they excel. Maybe the work ethic of American poverty is what truly holds them back.

[NOLALady]

2. I think you may have something there.

Poor Americans do not work as hard as wealthy Americans. I'm sure that's it.

[dkf]

5. Wealthy Americans did it through smarts or some ancestor who made it through smarts.

But if you can't get it together to be more ingenious than the next guy then you have to do it through pure hard work.

[CreekDog]

33. Poor people don't work hard?

interesting coming from someone who spends all day posting on DU.

[bobbolink]

107. !!!!

:rofl:

:yourock:

[cyberswede]

3. Did you forget your sarcasm tag? n/t

[Occulus]

111. No, but it reminded me of why it's Ignored.

Just from the responses, that's a Freeperish post if there ever was- and NO, I didn't cheat and log out.

Kind of proof that "Ignore" doesn't really do away with the problem, huh?

[bobbolink]

6. That's a fine RW talking point. Thanks. Very helpful.

:puke:

[leftstreet]

20. "Maybe the work ethic of American poverty is what truly holds them back"

:wow:

I can't believe I just read that on DU

Strange dayz

[Occulus]

112. That's what it said?

Really?

Can someone PM me with its username so I can hit alert? Maybe it'll do some good...

[CreekDog]

32. Republican talking point

wish I could say I was surprised.

[AngryAmish]

59. China is rising out of poverty since they stopped killing each other

For the majority of human existence China has been the most populated and wealthiest nation on earth. Education has always been revered there, primarily because of the civil service exams which were instituted over a thousand years ago.

But China lost it's way. For cultural reasons they stopped innovating like the west. Like most of mankind the scientific method was not a main cultural tool like in the west (and seeing how little it is revered in the west it is remarkable we are as advanced as we are). China was mored in civil war for almost 200 years until the 70s. There are these mass movements in China which have been tearing it apart - look up the Taiping Rebellion: twenty million human souls died and nobody in the west knows about it. Great Leap Forward - probably the worst idea in human history. Cultural Revolution.

For about the last thirty years China finally said enough and stopped killing itself.

That is why China is getting rich.

[SharonAnn]

113. BUt many, minay individuals in China are desperately poor. Their young

don't get a chance at a good education, either.

[formernaderite]

81. This is a complex and sometimes taboo subject

Given that I have family who probably would seem poverty stricken, and also have quite a bit of blue collar blood...it's tricky. I have family who still lives in Tennessee and outright owns their land, but have always lived off of taking "odd jobs". They could have done more with their lives, but I feel chose not to. They have also done a piss poor job raising their kids, and motivating them. My wife has a side of the family that have worked crappy factory jobs. Not poor, but working class... they're also a mixed bag. One brother did everything right, and made sure his kids went off to college. The other one basically acts like the world owes him something, and has done nothing to ensure his kids future. He basically acts like those of us who are at all motivated and have higher educations, are pansies. So is it poverty or low income? Partially, but it's also a cultural stigma that has to be overcome.

Parents not wanting better for their kids, is a horrible crime in my mind. Some I suppose are just plain ignorant and can't even conjure up other possibilities. But we no longer live in an isolated world. To say they haven't "seen" better, is ridiculous considering the amount of media everyone is exposed to. My cousin, I'll call him "joe"... has two dish systems on his roof, but moans how he can't afford this or that.

[quaker bill]

86. Because they didn't?

I think actually they protected their economy and industries heavily with very one sided trade restrictions. Secondly, they use labor instead of automation. Finally they educated those with great aptitude, a group that because size of their population, outnumbers us.

[midnight]

94. China has risen out of poverty because American corporations

sent jobs over their via Nafta..... China has almost 24-7 shipping of goods out of the country... They are suffering from greater pollution... But rising out of poverty via jobs has been a better trade off for them.

[TheWraith]

114. Schools funded by property taxes are a key problem here that we need to talk about.

Most areas in the US fund schools based on property taxes. That means the poorer the area, the worse it's schools are likely to be: fewer books, fewer computers, fewer and less desirable teachers, etcetera.

That said, impoverished American students--particularly those in the inner cities--are subjected to considerable survival pressures. Not the kind you'd find in a group of students accustomed to subsistence farming, either. When you're worried about whether your parent(s) can keep alive, or whether you need to join a gang, that doesn't help scholastic performance.

[mopinko]

4. emotional nurturance is what poor kids need the most, imho

the importance of emotional development of kids in poverty could easily be better served. keep primary kids with the same kids and the same teachers. nurture relationships.
i also always thought that instead of the regimentation of school lunches, etc that kids, especially k-2, should have snacks available at all times. i know admins hate that, but it sends a clear biological signal that there is abundance that they can share in. i believe this placates the survival signals that make kids shut down and focus on survival instead of growth.

[bobbolink]

8. You have some very intriguing ideas there! I especially like the snacks. I found that appealing

because I am hypoglycemic (and I'm sure there are kids who are, also), but then as you gave your reasoning, you really drew me in. Do you have any outlet for expressing these ideas? Are you part of the educational system?

I haven't heard these things expressed before, and I think you are brilliant in identifying this. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs certainly would tell us that this is at least worth trying.

Thanks so much for this! :yourock:

[Igel]

11. There's a huge amount of research.

One "brain-based" research blip deals with stress. If you're from certain kinds of households, you're focused on survival. This means that what's "relevant" is what gets you to tomorrow. It can affect memory, attention, concentration.

Research showed that when kids were missing meal consistently they did worse in school. So they provided them lunch. They had better gains when providing breakfast and lunch. So we have national breakfast/lunch programs for a lot of kids.

Except that the actual data didn't cover *all* kids in poverty. It covered those who were consistently missing meals. Most kids in poverty miss few meals, but the results were taken not to refer to actual hunger but an older sort of "food insecurity." The results were disappointing. A few reiterations of research and justifications, they're still working on finding the perfect reason to justify the course of action began 40 years ago.

That's sort of how the research goes in lots of things. You do research; you wrongly extrapolate your research to make it relevant. You get a program, then have to find a justification when the results don't justify the program.

But for the truly hungry kids, those under actual stress because they lack food, yeah--having lots of free food sitting around a couple of times a day is a good thing.

[mopinko]

22. it is just sort of comes out of having 5 really weird kids.

i am just sort of an omnivore, and dig into whatever interests me at the moment. when my kids were little i was also learning about evolutionary psychology, and sure saw my kids as naked apes. so, mostly my outlet has been to raise some amazing and unique people.
i have given serious thought to becoming a thorn in the side of the chicago public school system. i have other pet causes in that direction, like some understanding about the issue of sleep and teenagers. but really, many things make a lot of sense when you look at what the human ANIMAL needs.

thanks bobbo, i appreciate your comments.

[bobbolink]

27. Please do! Being a professional thorn-in-the-side is thankless, but it is a necessary

position. Especially in the service of children!

You mentioned a book somewhere, and now I can't find where you give the title. Could you please send that title to me... either here or PM?

Thanks... your ideas are spectacular, and I wish so much you were in a position to implement them!

:yourock:

[mopinko]

29. i was a thorn in the side of the principal at my kid's school

although she took it very well. the big thing holding me back is my lack of research on these issues. i know it is out there, but to go up against the ptb, i would need chapter and verse behind me. i am slightly at loose ends right now. hmm......

here is a link. http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Animal-Science-Evolutionary-Psychology/dp/0679763996
it is an old book now, as i said, and the bit in the subtitle about new science has been superseded. it is a flourishing science now.

[bobbolink]

35. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall! ~~gigglesnort~~

Seriously, I love people who are able to rock the system in that way. Usually we/they are treated with disdain and dismissal, but every once in a while there is someone who "takes it very well".

You are wise to recognize that you would need to have verse at chapter at your fingertips. I hope you find your way clear to follow up on this, but I also appreciate what a big task that would be. I wish I was a King Maker... I would revel in the ability to put people like you in positions where they can follow out what they know to be true.

I guess what struck me most in your posts was what sounded like your ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, and look at the world from their eyes. To me, that is what PEACE is made of. Until we are able to do that, we are imperialists, no matter on how small a scale.

The book that influenced me most when my son was little is Parent Effectiveness Training, especially the chapter on Active Listening. That was the pioneering effort in showing people in a practical way how to see the world from the eyes of the other. Acceptance. It becomes a life-long habit, which, in today's atmosphere, takes a large toll. It almost feels like martyrdom in some ways.

I hope your children have followed in your footsteps! Although, being innovative and different can certainly be lonely and isolating. :(

Thank you for the link. I was hoping to find a recorded version in the library, since I mostly listen to books, but no such luck. I may order a used copy, although the postage is so high! Something is ringing a bell to me... didn't Morris West write a book somewhat like this? Or am I totally losing what precious little is left of my mind?

Oh, yeah... The Naked Ape... is that where you got your phrase? I haven't thought of that book in EONS. I remember at the time I thought it to be a great book. One of the biggest problems with being homeless and poor is not being able to keep books to refer to from time to time. :(

Thank you again for your insights. I do hope to hear how you have been able to implement them in the future! Our sad society needs the activism of people with your vision!

:yourock:

[mopinko]

42. yeah there was a pbs series based on that book.

maybe that was in the back of my mind. but i once wrote a short auto-bio for myself. i said that the reason i had this little pack of kids what that there were no positions available on jane goodall's research team. so i raised a little troop of ape-men for myself. i did find it really fascinating to watch them grow. they are so very much like little monkeys, especially for the first couple years.

thanks for you kind words. if i ever take up this battle i will keep a running commentary about this here for sure.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Focusing on nutrition is a great start

First let's get rid of the crappy school lunches.

[mopinko]

23. the thing is that those fatty salty crappy

food like substances appeal to those insecurities. the more insecure you are the more you seek high calorie foods. if the snacks in the classroom were milk and fruit, we would change the way they feel about food. little kids should be able to have a glass of milk any time they want.
we would be helping them learn and helping them form good eating habits that will give them power instead of weighing them down.

i would highly recommend an old book- robert wright's 'the moral animal'. it completely changed the way i looked at people in general and kids in particular. good and bad make a lot more sense when you understand what it means to grow up 'bad'. it isn't an aberration, a departure from the norm, it is a perfectly normal slant in development to deal with an insecure world. altruism and 'goodness' are luxuries. they only make sense when there is abundance. when there is a fight for survival, the more base parts of our nature become necessary.
this all comports with research that shows how a mother's stress hormones shape the brain development of her fetus. which is to say, the same resources that i would want little kids to have should be doubled, tripled even for pregnant women. we would live in a different world if every pregnant woman who is hungry could get a steak dinner when she needed one. the medical bills for a single preemie would balance a WHOLE lot of steak dinners.

alas, i do not rule the world.

[surrealAmerican]

16. I agree about the need for a nurturing, consistent ...

... environment. Unfortunately, many poor kids aren't even in the same school for two years at a stretch. They move frequently, and more often than not, go to a new school with each move.

[mopinko]

21. i believe that if the kids had real roots in a school,

if the parents felt that someone was truly connected to their kids, and cared about their kids, they would be more rooted. it works for middle class families. i know not everything that works for middle class kids works for poor kids. but i really believe that overwhelmed parents would be deeply grateful if someone was really nurturing their child.

[The Midway Rebel]

7. k&r

The impact of poverty on children in America is profound.

[bobbolink]

10. There are studies which show that poverty causes neurological damage.

I don't have the specifics or links right at my fingertips (can get them if needed), but it seems this is something that isn't usually considered.

When the richest country in the world allows some of its children to suffer permanent damage in this way, IMO it qualifies as a very sick society.

[w8liftinglady]

12. you got my attention,and I did some research

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081203092429.htm
Poor Children's Brain Activity Resembles That Of Stroke Victims, EEG Shows


University of California, Berkeley, researchers have shown for the first time that the brains of low-income children function differently from the brains of high-income kids.

In a study recently accepted for publication in the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, scientists at UC Berkeley's Helen Wills Neuroscience Institute and the School of Public Health report that normal 9- and 10-year-olds differing only in socioeconomic status have detectable differences in the response of their prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that is critical for problem solving and creativity.

[bobbolink]

13. Thanks! That's a different one from what I have, and worded very strongly.

WHY are we doing this to our children??!!

:cry: :grr:

Thanks.... this is so very tragic. Who the hell ARE we?

:yourock:

[bobbolink]

15. That's a very good article -- it sure proves that "the basics" are not enough!

I hope you will post that as an OP of its own.... maybe in a day or two. This is info people need to know!

Here is a brief rundown of what I have:

Increased Public Costs for Education Needs Sources
• Neurological brain imaging studies show homeless children suffering neurological damage.


Children in poverty are:
• More likely to have lower academic achievement.
• Four times as likely to have developmental delays.
• Twice as likely to have learning disabilities.
• Twice as likely to repeat a grade, most often due to frequent absences and moves to new schools.

• Prolonged homelessness can cause life-long neurological damage, as shown by hormonal and neurological studies.

American Association for the Advancement of Science

[w8liftinglady]

17. my partner sees it in his student population...

If you include home-instability with homelessness,you have described the majority of his students...5th graders... who,thanks to wonderful teachers like him and his friends,have risen above low test scores.
This should NOT exist in America...the poor masses crawling at the feet of the rich few. It reminds me of an Orwell novel....except it is fact.

[bobbolink]

25. I very much appreciate what he is doing. Give him a hug for me, please.

What we are doing to these kids is criminal, and that is not hyperbole.

And yet, it is mostly ignored.

I have been saying we are living out Dickens novels in this country for at least the last 30 years, but the Latte Liberals couldn't possibly care less.

[CreekDog]

53. If we deal with poverty as effectively as other nations...schools improve radically

does it solve all educational problems? no

does it make all schools successful? no

does it do more for poor performing schools than any other "reform" gimmick? arguably, yes.

[bobbolink]

54. You are so right, but being right doesn't count for much here anymore.

:(

:yourock:

[CreekDog]

55. It's easier to spread Asian stereotypes than to alleviate poverty

of course, the easier thing in this case doesn't do anything to fix schools. :banghead:

[bobbolink]

57. And that's why people like mntleo2 are also banging their heads on walls.

:cry:

It is sooo easy and sooo fun to post incessantly on Sarah, to come up with a clever (and cruel) putdown, to identify a group to, as you note, list stereotypes.

But, CHANGE? Not nearly as sexy, is it?

&0=&1=0&4=64.134.28.162&5=64.134.28.162&9=450e1694d82e41e58e883637bb0bcc01&10=1&11=info.wbcrwl.300&13=search&14=372380&15=main-title&17=10&18=10&19=0&20=0&21=10&22=gb64cj%2FKNrE%3D&40=XyuiX%2F%2FrXzcn%2FDKQ51pH6A%3D%3D&_IceUrl=true

Thank you for *your* efforts, also. May we find ways to remove those walls! :yourock:

[mopinko]

24. see my reply #23.

[CreekDog]

58. +1

interesting.

[Igel]

14. Perhaps.

There is that claim.

It keeps going back to one of two things: Poverty and home culture (I'll use that term for the non-economic parts of "socio-economic status").

Politicians like "race," but on so long as you privilege race over poverty and culture and don't look at large-enough data sets do you get race being the most important factor. Make poverty or home culture more important, or include poor white communities, and race is relegated to the sidelines.

"Home culture" deals more with the parents'/family's child rearing/interaction practices and educational achievement, as well as family structure. The problem is that kids who's parents aren't reasonably well educated tend to live in poverty. Single mothers, esp. with lots of kids, tend to be in poverty. Families with unmarried partners in the household tend to be in poverty.

To test this hypothesis, Marder would have to have broken-down SES data for his cohorts. Alternatively, he'd have to have in his dataset schools where a significant portion of the parents had 2- or 4-year degrees and were still poor.

So he has data that he can't disaggregate well. He's left with his conclusions--which are good, as long as you don't ponder what's buried in the numbers.

[The Magistrate]

18. Socio-Economic Status, And Literacy Level, Ma'am, Of The Parents Are the Chief Predictors

'School reform' in its modern guise is simply an attempt to ignore these facts, since fixing them would likely require serious economic re-arrangement....

[leftstreet]

19. wrong spot

[Starry Messenger]

26. k&r

[Fire1]

28. NO! It is not the key factor. n/t

[WatsonT]

30. I would say it's the culture/parents mostly

that's how chinese immigrants came here with nothing, got whatever job they could, then started sending their kids to colleges in record numbers.

[CreekDog]

31. you're saying a child will do just fine in school if they are homeless and malnourished?

uh huh. :eyes:

[WatsonT]

34. Ah yes, the old false dichotomy routine

all poor people are homeless and malnourished.

I notice you didn't try to refute my statement: if poverty is the only factor then why did so many poor asians come here and succeed academically (or at least their children did) whereas a great many poor here, in the same schools and no worse off, do not succeed academically?

[CreekDog]

36. nice stereotype about the Asians

I grew up in an Asian neighborhood.

but please, go on with your model minority tales.

[WatsonT]

37. Um, it's true

And now they have the highest average income of any ethnic group in the US. I'd call that a success, you don't?

Of course there are plenty who fail, when discussing trends we don't look for absolutes, just . . .well trends.

Can you name a group that doesn't place a high emphasis on education that does well?

[CreekDog]

39. I guess you forgot about the topic of this thread

that poverty affects school and student performance.

and yes, not eating enough or having the basics necessities will harm your education.

you keep wanting to separate poverty from its effects.

[WatsonT]

40. You assume poverty = malnourished to the point where it affects

mental development. This is not a universal truth.

[CreekDog]

41. so you're saying that if it doesn't harm your brain, hunger doesn't harm your learning?

and you're lecturing me. :rofl:

those are the kind of arguments Republicans make.

[WatsonT]

44. You're saying that poverty in the US

necessarily means malnourished to the point where learning is impossible.

Clearly you are wrong.

[CreekDog]

50. see you are saying malnourishment is only a problem if learning is "impossible"

and refusing to admit that "compromised" learning is also a problem.

and why? well, maybe that's what you and the rest of us should talk about:

perhaps the reason you are saying this is because you don't think we should be fixing poverty --because worst case, that's the likely outcome of a point about poverty and education being related.

but if you oppose alleviating poverty among kids because it's not a 100% relationship (nothing is 100%) between poverty and educational problems, then you should just come right out and say so.

[WatsonT]

68. Yep that's it

trying to find the accurate explanation for this problem means that I think all other proposed casual elements are good things and should be promoted.

Just like if you deny that poor test scores were caused by 9/11 that proves that you liked 9/11 and want to see more terrorist attacks on the US.

You don't want more terrorist attacks do you? If so you should just come out and admit that "I creekdog, deny the 100% correlation between 9/11 and low test scores and as such desire to have even more such attacks on US soil".

What's wrong with you?

[bobbolink]

48. You certainly have that right!

Sadly, it is becoming more and more common.

:yourock:

[Hannah Bell]

43. um, no, it's not. cambodians, for example, are among the poorer groups in us society.

and tend to have lower academic achievement than average.

asian achievement is about class as much as culture.

e.g. vietnamese immigrants to the us tended to do well; they had been mostly catholic, urban, educated in vietnam.

cambodian immigrants did not; they'd been mostly rural, uneducated in cambodia/vietnam.

[WatsonT]

45. I was just going by, you know, facts

as collected by the US census:




Here's where you say "nu uh, I know a chinese family that is very poor and that completely disproves all those statistics!"

[Hannah Bell]

46. "asian" includes, uh, like 1/3 of the world. There's huge variance within the category.

it's not just a "chinese family".

i.e. it's nothing to do with "asian culture".

[WatsonT]

47. ""asian" includes, uh, like 1/3 of the world"

And when we're talking about the US that population is far smaller, no?

"There's huge variance within the category."

Whereas every other ethnic group is exactly the same? Of course there is a variance, that was never disputed, merely the trend. If you're going the route of "well not everyone is exactly like that within group X" then statistical analysis of any group of humans becomes impossible.

Do cars weigh more than insects on average? Impossible to say, cars and insects both have a wide range of variance so it's impossible to compare them. That is the logic you are bringing to this conversation.


And how do you explain the difference then? They came here poor, so it isn't money that gave them a leg up initially. They were put through the same schools as everyone else, so no special advantage there.

Maybe it's just that Americans hate all other minorities but love asians and showered them with money and handouts the second they stepped off the boat?

[Hannah Bell]

49. "they came here poor". uh, no, many of them didn't. & as i already noted,

even among those who came here poor monetarily, had a history of being better-off/educated.

a lot of the vietnamese war refugees, for example, as well as chinese who fled the revolution & merchant chinese (there has been an international chinese merchant class from time immemorial), + a significant fraction of immigrant japanese.

e.g.:

In an ironic twist, the Japanese on the mainland, who historically dealt with more discrimination and wartime internment, achieved higher incomes and occupational levels than those in Hawaii. Though the Japanese in Hawaii were much more active politically, and were more accepted, they still did not surpass those on the mainland. Historically, the Japanese who immigrated to the mainland were of higher social class and wealth than those who went to Hawaii. This social difference seems to have had an enduring impact economically, more so than the difference of treatment or political clout that Hawaii has always offered.

http://library.thinkquest.org/20619/Japanese.html

Most Japanese immigrants came from middle-class backgrounds but had to enter the labor markets as unskilled laborers in the United States. In his view the significant numbers of Japanese who became farmers and businessmen were simply recovering their middle-class status.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2123821


Chen refutes a conventional depiction of immigration as a panic-stricken flight from hunger and poverty. Although they were disparaged in anti-Chinese propaganda as members of the lowest social class, the immigrants arriving in America were seldom from the poorest segment of Chinese society. The Pearl River Delta, the region sending the overwhelming majority of the immigrants, actually had a thriving market economy characterized by diversified commodities production and extensive maritime trade. This economic vitality and prosperity, according to Chen, "gave rise to individuals willing to venture away from home to pursue money-making opportunities" (12). Moreover, contact with American traders and missionaries in the treaty port of Canton contributed to Chinese knowledge concerning the United States and helped draw California within the constellation of potential sites for overseas migration.

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=4601

[WatsonT]

66. And a great many more came here penniless

Not all asians in the US are descendents of Japanese professionals.

[Hannah Bell]

91. as the article says, "most" japanese immigrants came from the japanese middle class, ie

small property owners or educated/professional.

as the other article says, japanese in hawaii were more likely than mainland japanese to be poor -- & are still more likely than mainland japanese to be poor.

class matters.

as the other article says, the area where most chinese immigrants came from was a marketized merchant culture with international connections.

& most vietnamese immigrants were members or relatives of the catholic class who administered the country for the french prior to the revolution: educated, urban, & westernized. cambodians & laotians were much more likely to be poor, uneducated & rural. and they still are more likely to be so in the us.

class matters.

i've given you a number of references & you still insist that your "impression" based mostly on rah-rah america mythology & propaganda extolling asians as possessing some kind of "special" monoculture, is correct. but it's not.

there are many asias, many asian cultures, cultures that value education, cultures that don't, cultures with millenia of experience in trade, cultures without it.

asians as a whole had distinct advantages over our two "pariah" groups (blacks & indians) in the US. if you don't recognize that, you don't get it.

[CreekDog]

52. You think Asians are similar enough to be referred to as one group

that should tell everyone where you're coming from and how seriously they should take the arguments you make which are based on that ignorance.

:wtf:

[WatsonT]

67. This pathetic attempt to label me a racist is getting old

and is indicative of a failed argument.

How do you account for the success (evidence of which I posted earlier) for that particular culture within the US within such a short period of time and not starting from a position of wealth or authority?

/I know I know, you don't "believe" in statistics. But just assume that I'm right, I am, and go with that.

[CreekDog]

70. You're saying Asians all got here recently, arrived poor and prospered due to their cultural values

Honestly, you are so incredibly ignorant on a topic you are spouting off about continuously that it really does come off as culturally insensitive at best, and patronizing stereotyping at worst.

I didn't use the term racist --but I wouldn't consider my characterization of your stereotyping much better than that.

[WatsonT]

77. I think I realize the problem

you lack nuance.

You can't say that a problem has many roots, it has to be one. And everyone else can either agree with you 100% or de facto support all the things you oppose, it would be impossible to agree that something is a problem but not the key problem.

You can't say that a population is generally like X while acknowledging that they have variations within that population. Either they are all homogenous or nothing can be said about them at all.

You can't realize that cultures are different. Either all cultures are the same or they are so varied that they can't be looked at.

If there is one person who doesn't fit the mold then the entire mold is useless. (I guess it would be "racist" to say most people are righthanded since there are clearly people who are not?)

You have a very black/white kind of thinking that is common among ideologues and makes intelligent conversation and progress next to impossible. I have done my best to present the facts in a way I though you might be able to digest. But you reacted to them by closing your mind even further.

[CreekDog]

82. Please don't lecture me about "nuance"

after your anecdotes about "Asian Culture" and "Hispanic Culture".

i'm not really sure you know any more than Archie Bunker did. if you do, you are doing a remarkable job of hiding it.

[WatsonT]

84. So what do you call a group

that is clearly defined and labeled but has no distinguishing characteristics that would tie any member to that group?

Essentially that is what you believe "hispanic" and the rest means: a group that is so varied as to have nothing in common, but requires a label to describe it, which is impossible to use as the group has no characteristics.

Like saying the word square just means any shape, or anything really with no defining features to separate it from other shapes.

[Hannah Bell]

92. whereas talking about "asian culture" pins the world into a nice rigid & essentially false little

box.

once you start talking about "asian" culture, you're implying there's also "caucasian" culture & "black" culture, those being the 3 major racial groupings in the world.

i hope you can see there are no such three monocultures with any significant differences unique to any through time & space.

[WatsonT]

102. Indeed, there is no such thing as culture

in no way can any group be made based on shared beliefs, values, cuisine, music etc.

The entire word has no meaning. Baffling then that we have it at all.

[bobbolink]

108. You are right, of course, PLUS, there are many cities having problems with ASIAN GANGS.

Kinda blows those stereotypes, eh?

[CreekDog]

51. no, you were going by an assumption that all Asians are the same

insert stereotype related to studiousness and strong work ethic (the irony is that you probably think it's a compliment rather than the patronizing stereotype that it actually is...but i digress)

a stereotype is what you were going by.

and stereotyping in the service of advocating against reducing poverty among children as ONE (not the only) mechanism of improving educational outcomes in schools and among children, especially the most at risk children in our society.

don't know how a Democrat or a liberal could argue against that in good conscience.

[WatsonT]

63. Nope, false statement on your part

a group does not have to be homogenous to have an average.


If I have 10 people with radically different heights but an average of 6ft what is their average? This is why we shouldn't cut so many corners on education, I hate having to explain this sort of thing.

There are virtually no groups of anything that are 100% exactly the same, that's why we came up with the field of statistics (or witchcraft as you most likely call it) to describe general trends in a meaningful way.

Claiming that poverty is the biggest factor (reread the OP) not merely one of a myriad is incorrect.

[zalinda]

56. You will find that certain immigrants do succeed and

there is a reason why. It's called networking. Jewish immigrants when coming to New York, would already have a letter of introduction to the group, and would be supported. They would get living quarters and set up in jobs, and have a huge support group to fall back on. It is why the Jewish people who settled in New York, went on to become financially comfortable.

If you take a look, Asian populations do the same thing. It is why you rarely find a non Asian working in an Asian owned company. They carve out an area within a community, and become a support group. It may be because of language problems, culture, or they know that working and living together makes them stronger, that they form a group. But whatever the reason, it works.

Latinos and blacks tend to try to 'become' middle class, within a white community. They don't tend to have group support. I don't know if it's culture or what, but they do tend to be loners. Maybe it's the grass is greener on the other side concept. In this way they are very much like the white culture. We don't tend to set up group support either. We seem to always be in competition with each other, instead of working together as a group.

zalinda

[WatsonT]

64. Hispanics do the same thing

they form their own communities, and prefer to hire other hispanics (trust me on this).

And yet it works out differently.

Anyone who says hispanic culture doesn't tend towards familial support and mutual obligation within a family is absolutely ignorant of that culture.

[CreekDog]

75. "Hispanic Culture"

does that mean Mexicans are the same as people from the Dominican Republic?

[WatsonT]

78. You keep making this mistake

do you suppose there is nothing that hispanics have in common, in general?

If that were the case why does the word even exist? Quick, whats the word for a clearly defined group of people that have no identifying features that would associate them with that group?

[CreekDog]

83. Christopher Columbus?

:rofl:

[WatsonT]

85. Clearly that made sense

and he labeled them indians do to his poor understanding of geography.

Sadly he is more put together than you on this.

[CreekDog]

76. It will be good to see your message deleted

but sadly, with it gone, people will no longer see unveiled, the kind of things you write.

[WatsonT]

79. People with your mind set often believe censorship is a good rebuttal

[CreekDog]

89. Why don't you just explain to us which "groups" or "cultures" you think are against education

:shrug:

[WatsonT]

103. Impossible

as there is no such thing as "groups" or "culture" according to you.

[Hannah Bell]

97. i don't trust you on anything. you're fond of grouping people by a couple of characteristics &

calling it a "culture" which either supports or doesn't support capitalist "success".

ignoring history, ignoring politics, ignoring anything but the stereotypes you trade in.

[Hannah Bell]

95. "networking" is pretty worthless when most of the people in your "group" are poor

& unemployed. one of the biggest differences between jewish immigrants & others is that there were significant numbers of jews who immigrated with substantial capital from the earliest days of the republic; they were able to employ others. *those* employment/financial connections were the "network". jews were already intermarrying with the british aristocracy in the 1700s-1800s. Those connections also made up the "network", because there were substantial connections between british/us trade, including the slave trade (liverpool capital was connected to baltimore capital e.g., white & jewish capital intermixed).

the same is true to a lesser extent of chinese & japanese when they began to immigrate. all we hear about in school is coolies & houseboys, but that's not the whole story.

otoh, very few africans came to the us with capital, or even experience in a marketized international economy (unlike e.g. many jews, indians, & chinese, even 300 years ago). Black immigrants to the US mostly came out of local tribal economies & were completely dispossessed. Same is true mostly of american indians. Not only that, both had the experience of being "defeated/cordoned" as peoples -- which historically creates long-lived pariah classes wherever it happens (think of e.g. northern ireland).

all people "network". it's about who's *in* your network.

there are historic reasons for the success of jewish & asian immigrants in the us, & networking per se is not the major reason. it's *capital*.

& "asians" didn't historically consider themselves as members of one group. they were chinese, they were japanese, they were korean, etc. first & "networked" with their own. "asian" identity came later, & in different contexts depending where people wound up (e.g. experience in hawaii significantly different from pacific northwest for japanese).

[CreekDog]

62. You want me to name a racial or ethnic group that doesn't value education?

speaks volumes about how you view the world, doesn't it?

[WatsonT]

65. A cultural group

culture is not the same as race. And not all cultures are identical. You can agree with that right?

For instance, if I were to say the southern, rural baptist community doesn't place education and science as highly as they should would anyone disagree with me?

[uponit7771]

72. As long as you don't tie any 'cultural' group to ANY race, nationality, gender etc...

...this is another right wing tactic...sticking to culture and juxtaposing the two.

[WatsonT]

74. And yet they are often associated

there aren't a lot of Africans growing up in china immersed in their culture, and living just as everyone else in that country does.

Nothing is preventing it, and should that happen that person would be culturally chinese and would take on those traits same as everyone else, the culture isn't dependent on skin color it just usually works out that way.

[Hannah Bell]

99. black people lived in china before the han chinese. and all over asia.

as such, they were/are full members of the "asian" culture you speak so knowledgeably of.

not to mention the hundreds of other ethnic/racial subgroups in china/asia.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2004/11/27/2003212815

In fact, the short, black men the festival celebrates are one of the most ancient types of modern humans on this planet and their kin still survive in Asia today. They are said to be diminutive Africoids and are variously called Pygmies, Negritos and Aeta. They are found in the Philippines, northern Malaysia, Thailand, Sumatra in Indonesia and other places.

Chinese historians called them "black dwarfs" in the Three Kingdoms period (AD 220 to AD 280) and they were still to be found in China during the Qing dynasty (1644 to 1911). In Taiwan they were called the "Little Black People" and, apart from being diminutive, they were also said to be broad-nosed and dark-skinned with curly hair.

After the Little Black People -- and well before waves of Han migrations after 1600 -- came the Aboriginal tribes, who are part of the Austronesian race. They are thought to have come from the Malay Archipelago 6,000 years ago at the earliest and around 1,000 years ago at the latest, though theories on Aborigine migration to Taiwan are still hotly debated. Gradually the Little Black People became scarcer, until a point about 100 years ago, when there was just a small group living near the Saisiyat tribe.


the han chinese are northerners who gradually took over more & more territory:

"The history of the Han Chinese ethnic group is closely tied to that of China. Han Chinese trace their ancestry back to the Huaxia people, who lived along the Huang He or Yellow River in northern China."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese

[WatsonT]

104. Yes, thank you for that example of obfuscation

I don't recall asking for one but it will serve should I need one in the future.

[CreekDog]

73. you keep using the terms interchangeably

and now you lecture me about being precise.

remember when you wrote "Asian culture"? :eyes:

[WatsonT]

80. So they have no culture then?

Interesting.

[CreekDog]

87. the same culture?

where do you get this stuff? did you order the same thing at two different food trucks one day?

[WatsonT]

88. Again you lack nuance and understanding

saying a group has a shared culture doesn't mean they are completely identical in everyway.

There is an American culture, for instance. Does that mean someone from New York is identical to someone from Texas or California? Obviously not. But there are some root similarities despite regional differences. I hope this lesson hasn't been a waste of time. Please, try to learn. I can't teach much harder.

/sometimes it is the fault of the student.

[CreekDog]

90. Hmm, a third generation Asian student is "Asian" culture or "American" culture?

and if they make a lot of money --which culture gets the credit?

frankly, this is all bullsh*t. you sound like Archie Bunker.

this thread is about kids in poverty not doing as well in school and how reducing poverty is likely to do more to fix our schools than any school reform gimmick being bandied about.

and it's patronizing to tell people of various backgrounds to be like the "Asians".

[WatsonT]

101. You can keep repeating the same lies

RE Mr. Bunker but that doesn't make them true.


And I don't believe I said "be like the asians".

As I recall I said something about placing a high value on education, something which to a reasonable person seems perfectly acceptable but to you is akin to the holocaust or whatever.

[Hannah Bell]

98. mlk = southern baptist. his grandparents were sharecroppers.

jimmy carter was a southern baptist.

there are plenty of highly educated southern baptists.

again, you're engaging in stereotyping without really looking into it.

in fact, a lot of the southern baptist types who support palin etc. *are* highly educated.

[WatsonT]

105. Ahahahahaha

So that's all it takes to get people to switch from the "stupid hick rednecks from the south" routine.

[apocalypsehow]

93. Ahhhh...ain't that cute? You're implying the poster you're replying to is a bigot. Why don't you

just garner up the courage of your innuendo's, and come right out and state it? :shrug:

[CreekDog]

100. i pretty plainly stated what i thought elsewhere in the thread

and ignoring it would have been wrong.

[CreekDog]

38. Our nation doesn't alleviate the effects of poverty well compared to other wealthy nations

and those effects (lack of healthcare, lack of proper nutrition, lack of other types of critical support, lack of housing) will get in the way of getting a proper education.

(can I also make note of the rather "quaint" statement in this thread suggesting Asians immigrants or Asians in other countries are poor and they do great in school...and thus what's wrong with our poor people? i'll eat my hat if anyone making such statements has any experience in education)

[AngryAmish]

60. IQ tends to be the main driver

But what causes higher IQ? Genetics and environment. If you are poor you tend to have a worse environment.

[dembotoz]

61. there is more to poverty than food

my 3 sons have enjoyed a somewhat middle class existance
family has gone from some money to no money and back and forth

when money is availble--what it means to kids and thier education
--a better day care in an educational setting
--access to computers with learning games--my God we have spent money on learning games
--zoo classes day sessions to learn about dolphins, or monkeys, or cows.
--musemum classes-behind the scenes at the museum, Pyramid class,ancient rome class
--a daily newspaper in the house
--internet access
--new glasses
--soccer camps
--summer enrichment classes thru local schools
--hockey camps
--soccer league
--hockey league$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
--all kinds of sports equipment
--books--could do a who section on books
The list goes on and on.
All this stuff costs money
All this stuff provides an educational experience that is outside the classroom

At the end of this month my kid is going to compete in Destination Imagination Global Finals
in Knoxville TN. Wonderful educational experience, His team went last year and it was
an incredible expereince for him--but again--if the fund raising fall short, the parents
are on the hook for up to 1000 dollars-each.

There is more to the story of poverty vs middle class kids than whether or not the child
got an apporved nutritous breakfast.

We provided all of the above to create a situation where our kids could
get ahead.
If the Above has no bearing on school performance....can i please get my money back????

[TNLib]

69. I think if you put your best resources in the most challenging areas we will get results

in education. But we don't' do that we do the opposite. I think if we looked at parenting programs, head start programs and put our best resources in troubled areas we will see a shift.

[readmoreoften]

71. This article is impossible. No one in Texas could possibly be doing any research on poverty.

We're all yahoo oil moguls. Or so I've heard.

[mia]

96. Absolutely!

The government will take care of you. You don't need to do well in school.

Unless..."But even in the toughest of neighborhoods and circumstances, children excel when the right adults are doing the right things for them."

[Nevernose]

106. There are many, many studies demonstrating how the culture of poverty affects learning outcomes

First, let me say that I'm not stereotyping ALL poor people (there are billionaires who act like the Beverly Hillbillies, except probably not so loveable, and the totally destitute who seem like Grace Kelly). I've been homeless-poor and food stamp-poor, and I've done a lot of academic research on the issue, so I think I'm capable of discussing this issue knowledgeably and objectively. I still work with the poor on a daily basis (I'm an inner city high school teacher).

There are many, many studies demonstrating how the culture of poverty affects learning outcomes. There are a host of issues within the poor community that affect education. Food issues were mentioned above. Going to school hungry is not conducive to learning. Then there are clothing issues, transportation issues, health issues, teen pregnancy issues, crime issues...

There are also cultural issues. Many poor parents had bad experiences in school themselves, and therefore don't expect much from their children's schools and don't particularly value education. And, not having much experience themselves, have no idea what's necessary for a child to succeed and have little idea how to go about getting it anyway. Anthropologists have spent a lot of time studying the behavioral differences between social classes. Upper and middle income Americans typically negotiate with their children to some extent. Lower income Americans more often resort to violence; punishment is also not an ongoing process, it is something that happens quickly, it's over, and everybody moves on.

Most intriguing to me is the language difference. Middle-income children typically hear at home around 2,000 words, many of them uncommon. Lower-income Americans typically hear between five and seven hundred, many of them cuss words, insults, or some form of hostility.

Consider that and then consider this: what do we teach in schools? Essentially, we teach two things, once you strip away all the outer layers. We teach how to behave in various settings and we teach language skills (even math is just a highly precise, technical use of language skills). And where do the biggest differences between the bottom income people and the higher income people? In behavior and language.

American kids are #1 in Math, Science, and Reading for the top 20% of SES. Our math drops to #3 when you stretch the parameters to include the top 40%. As a group, it's the children of poverty who are failing most severely, and that will only continue the cycle of poverty.

I propose that we bump up the levels of sex ed and sexual health services for that demographic to begin with, and then begin with parenting classes (long term, effective, and meaningful). After that, we have to focus on the mothers. Long before Three Cups of Tea came out, we knew that raising mothers' educational levels was the key to breaking the cycle of poverty.

[bobbolink]

109. Oh, please. This "culture of poverty" crap is a RW meme. It has been debunked MANY YEARS ago, as

one more harmful stereotype.

Just MORE damaging bigotry.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

110. the elephant in the room is poverty often carries with it a "value system" all its own

One of my friends taught at some terrible schools in the LAUSD before giving up in despair, overcoming the attitudes of the students and parents was insurmountable, reaching out to the parents was usually just a means to invite verbal abuse.

She now teaches at a private school, which has its own frustrations but when calling a parent she has never been greeted with "Don't call me at work you fucking bitch".