SEALS thought OBL was reaching for a weapon

[pnwmom]

This makes sense -- who could imagine a man like OBL not keeping a weapon always nearby?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/04/osama-bin-laden-raid-reaching-for-weapon_n_857836.html

WASHINGTON -- President Barack Obama ordered grisly photographs of Osama bin Laden in death sealed from public view on Wednesday, declaring, "We don't need to spike the football" in triumph after this week's daring middle-of-the-night raid. The terrorist leader was killed by American commandos who burst into his room and feared he was reaching for a nearby weapon, U.S. officials said.

Several weapons were found in the room where the terror chief died, including AK-47 assault rifles and side arms, the officials said. They spoke on condition of anonymity as they offered the most recent in a series of increasingly detailed and sometimes-shifting accounts of bin Laden's final minutes after a decade on the run.

Obama said releasing the photographs taken by the Navy SEAL raiders was "not who we are" as a country. Though some may deny his death, "the fact of the matter is you will not see bin Laden walking this earth again," the president said in an interview taped for CBS' "60 Minutes."

He said any release of the photos could become a propaganda tool for bin Laden's adherents eager to incite violence.

SNIP

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

2. No Problem With Killing An Enemy Combatant, Sir, Armed Or No

[Arctic Dave]

3. Really?

Define your title of EC.

[Gamow]

10. A declared enemy of the US = enemy combatant.

Bin Laden was clearly that. He was dangerous enough to be considered a threat, weapon or no.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2011/05/bin-laden-the-rules-of-engagement.html

[The Magistrate]

26. Member, Actually Leader, of a Partisan Force Engaged In Hostilities Against the United States, Sir

Since about 1997, by his own declaration, if recollection serves regarding the precise date.

[Arctic Dave]

27. Rather vague description.

Would seem others could use that logic to assassinate half our political, pundit and military leadership.

That logic could be used by Pakistan against the SEAL team that intruded on their country.

[The Magistrate]

31. The Pakistani Military Would Certainly Have Been in Their Rights To Shoot At the Invaders, Sir

The rest of your comment is simply silly, and doubtless you are aware of that. Partisan combatants are recognized actors in the conventions; there is nothing vague in the description.

[Arctic Dave]

35. Why would they terminate, matters not to them.

Seems he could be a bargaining chip alive not dead.

Aside, you would have to say he was no more or less then then the bad people we employ.

[Paradoxical]

4. That literally makes no sense and is a violation of geneva convention.

[The Magistrate]

25. Hardly, Sir: Combatant Status Is Not Dependent On Having a Weapon In Hand

By the standards of the conventions, the man was definitely a partisan combatant.

[Paradoxical]

28. Totally dodging the point. You can't just shoot someone because they are a combatant.

There are rules.

[The Magistrate]

30. Yes, You Can, Sir

So long as they are not in your custody, and that requires an act of surrender, not mere helplessness.

[Paradoxical]

33. Geneva convention, protocol II, Article 4 "Humane treatment"

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/protocol2.htm

Article 4.-Fundamental guarantees

1. All persons who do not take a direct part or who have ceased to take part in hostilities, whether or not their liberty has been restricted, are entitled to respect for their person, honour and convictions and religious practices. They shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction. It is prohibited to order that there shall be no survivors.

2. Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, the following acts against the persons referred to in paragraph I are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever:

( a ) Violence to the life, health and physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular murder as well as cruel treatment such as torture, mutilation or any form of corporal punishment;

( b ) Collective punishments;

( c ) Taking of hostages;

( d ) Acts of terrorism;

( e ) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, rape, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault;

( f ) Slavery and the slave trade in all their forms;

( g ) Pillage;

( h ) Threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.

3. Children shall be provided with the care and aid they require, and in particular:

( a ) They shall receive an education, including religious and moral education, in keeping with the wishes of their parents, or in the absence of parents, of those responsible for their care;

( b ) All appropriate steps shall be taken to facilitate the reunion of families temporarily separated;

( c ) Children who have not attained the age of fifteen years shall neither be recruited in the armed forces or groups nor allowed to take part in hostilities;

( d ) The special protection provided by this Article to children who have not attained the age of fifteen years shall remain applicable to them if they take a direct part in hostilities despite the provisions of sub-paragraph ( c ) and are captured;

( e ) Measures shall be taken, if necessary, and whenever possible with the consent of their parents or persons who by law or custom are primarily responsible for their care, to remove children temporarily from the area in which hostilities are taking place to a safer area within the country and ensure that they are accompanied by persons responsible for their safety and well-being.

[The Magistrate]

34. You Fail At the First Sentence, Sir

As commander of the organization, he took a direct part, and had not ceased to take part, in hostilities with the United states. He made no act of surrender; he was shot on sight. That is war.

[Paradoxical]

36. That's some serious Bush-lite bullshit you've got there.

And has been used to justify the torture and murder of countless human beings.

Nice try though.

[The Magistrate]

39. Indeed, Sir: My Defenses Of the Bush Administration And Its Actions Are Legend Here

There seems to be a belief among some on the left that the powers of the earth assembled at Geneva sixty-odd years ago and without quite knowing what they were doping outlawed the normal practices of warfare in the twentieth century. They did no such thing. You may wish they did, but that does not make it so. You do not have to like what the definition of a combatant is, but that does not mean the definition is what you would like it to be.

[pnwmom]

42. You can shoot someone who has reaching for a weapon. n/t

[pnwmom]

7. You have a strange definition of "breaking your neck."

And apparently this issue doesn't seem important to you.

[Paradoxical]

9. It is important to me. Hence, the comment.

[pnwmom]

12. Then why shouldn't it be important to me?

OBL took credit for murdering thousands of people here and around the globe, and urged his followers to murder Americans wherever they could. He had ten years to turn himself in to the UN or another intermediary -- if he'd wanted a trial. He preferred to go out fighting.

[Paradoxical]

15. You are constructing a disingenuous argument based on emotion, not logic.

Yes, he was a terrible human being responsible for the death of thousands. But that does not mean he posed an IMMINENT threat.

If he was not a threat to the soldiers, he should have been captured, not killed.

[pnwmom]

41. He posed an imminent threat if he was reaching for an AK-47

or other nearby weapon -- which is what the SEALS who were there say.

[Paradoxical]

43. Could you link me to the source saying he was reaching for a weapon?

[pnwmom]

46. I've seen a number of articles that said that. Here's one.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/05/osama-bin-laden-raid-reaching-for-weapon_n_857836.html

WASHINGTON -- President Barack Obama ordered grisly photographs of Osama bin Laden in death sealed from public view on Wednesday, declaring, "We don't need to spike the football" in triumph after this week's daring middle-of-the-night raid. The terrorist leader was killed by American commandos who burst into his room and feared he was reaching for a nearby weapon, U.S. officials said.

Several weapons were found in the room where the terror chief died, including AK-47 assault rifles and side arms, the officials said. They spoke on condition of anonymity as they offered the most recent in a series of increasingly detailed and sometimes-shifting accounts of bin Laden's final minutes after a decade on the run.

SNIP

[demosincebirth]

5. they sould have shot him in the kneecaps first for all I give a shit about him.

[Arctic Dave]

6. SEALs? Like were Erik Prinze got his start?

Were Blackwater hires their guys?

Why should we ever question their word.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

16. You "couldn't give two shits about OBL." You couldn't

give two shits about a man who took credit for the murder of thousands. He wasn't important to you at all.

That says a lot.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swede]

17. So you are slagging a SF team why?

You're unhappy everyone is on Obama's side on this.

[Arctic Dave]

19. Just surprised that SEAL stories are gospel now.

I'm weird that way.

[pnwmom]

20. Not everybody. Some people even here seem to have to criticize

him no matter what he does.

[EFerrari]

13. Right. Releasing the pictures of an assassination isn't who we are.

That doesn't even make sense. And it looks like we're ashamed of the action.

Those photographs should be posted at the DHS site with a graphic warning and a short caption immediately. Obama is not denying terrorists a propaganda tool. He's damaging his own credibility.

And it's not like the so inclined in Iraq and in Afghanistan and in Pakistan and Yemen don't have 25 things happen to them every day that are more immediately inciting than a picture of a man they've never met. Like getting their families blown up by drones or not having electricity or work or having their families go hungry or being unable to get parts for their car or having to go through military checkpoints just to get to a market.

[Gravel Democrat]

44. "Releasing the pictures of an assassination isn't who we are." it would be ROFL if it wasn't so sad

maybe it depends on the definition of "we"

and maybe "we" have descended into an Orwellian hell

[BzaDem]

14. The truth is that the standards required for non-resistance for someone like Bin Laden were always

going to be quite high, given his history. That is necessary to minimize the risk to the SEALS. If Bin Laden had a problem with that (which I doubt), he probably should have thought about that long ago.

[TheKentuckian]

22. How would "quite high" be defined?

[BzaDem]

45. At a bare minimum, Bin Laden would have to actively attempt to surrender (hands up, white flag, etc)

and there is no sign that he did such a thing.

[Towlie]

18. The rest of the title should be "... yeah, that's the ticket."

[Maru Kitteh]

23. That's lovely but, I don't really care what they did to him.

He's dead.

[madamesilverspurs]

24. Given OBL's record and his stated intentions,

if he was standing buck naked in the middle of a bare room, one could reasonably presume a trigger device under his feet. He'd given no quarter, he warrented none.


-

[dorktv]

29. How do you know he had not been shooting from the higher windows?

He may have been reaching for a new one that was replacing the emptied one.

We do not know if bin Laden had been shooting a gun at all or just cowering in a corner.

[EFerrari]

32. Because the White House has told us he did not. n/t

[burning rain]

37. All bets are off in dealing with a monster like OBL.

He could've been sleeping like a baby and holding a teddy bear, and killing him would've been fine by me. The last thing we needed was that prick on trial, being defended by some latter-day William Kunstler.

[Cali_Democrat]

38. It was a kill mission all along

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-binladen-kill-idUSTRE7413H220110502

[pnwmom]

40. So says one anonymous, unconfirmed "official."

That proves nothing.