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What Would It Look Like If Red States Formed Their Own Country?

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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:24 PM
Original message
What Would It Look Like If Red States Formed Their Own Country?
http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/149332/secession%21_wh... /



With the recent fervor from the Right about states rights, particularly in relation to health care reform, and recurring noises throughout Obamas presidency about Texas threatening to secede, a salient question is worth considering. What would it look like if all the conservatives formed a utopia in Texas, say, and broke away from the United States?

The fascinating thing about conservatism is that many poor people subscribe to its principles thanks in large part to Fox News and talk radio, even though it calls for doing away with the safety net. This is crucial for forming a conservative utopia because the wealthy business interests who push for deregulation need the impoverished to provide (usually cheap and hard) labor and perform other men
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. It would probably look like Russia or a third-world banana republic
Those who could 'get' would, and everyone else would be fucked. Eventually, there would be chaos and unrest, leading to either a revolution or an increasingly repressive and authoritarian dictatorship...
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
39. Just like now, in other words.
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Yeah-let me take you to McClain's in Seven Points,Texas
Take a look around...all the surrounding businesses are...dollar stores,pawn shops,payday loans,used cars.
There are multi-million dollar homes on the lake and dilapidated trailors in the town.

It is definitely a third-world country.
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freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
75. Perfect illustraton. Pottersville.
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
50. And they couldn't borrow because they willingly default on their debts.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. They would try to cross the border illegally into the blue states
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Proud Liberal Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm not so sure how "utopian"
Edited on Sat Jan-01-11 11:33 PM by Proud Liberal Dem
a supposed "conservative country" might actually be. I'm thinking that it would be more like a nightmarish dystopia and I'd be worried about any liberal-minded people stuck in such a place
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. It would allow the rest of us to get something done and move the country into
the 21st century than being held back by regressive thinking of the good old times and we want our country back.

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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. They'd be badgering us in short order.
For massive amounts of "foreign aid."

Better believe it.

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eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Likely similar to what they receive now. nt
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Exactly.
They're not smart enough to realize that it gets cut off when they secede, so they'll have to beg.

Now won't that be embarrassing.... :D

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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. Here's a map.
Pretty close if you exclude the green part.

http://www.learner.org/biographyofamerica/prog10/maps/i...
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freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
76. Wow! Not much has changed, has it? Thanks for the visual aid.
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. The wild west, with cannibalism. nt
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. Somalia. nt
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. I would never call such a country a "utopia."
It would be worse than it is now. :scared:
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Rochester Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
10. So long as I'm on the Blue side, they should not let the door hit them in the ass on the way out!
Just keep those steaks coming, ok?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
41. Yum. I'll have the e. coli special, please.
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freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
77. Yup!!!
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. It would be okay with me.
I'm tired of them having a say in my life anymore.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. Latin America in the 1970s
Edited on Sat Jan-01-11 11:56 PM by DBoon
Suppression of labor and independent community organizations, a dictatorship run by the wealthy

or maybe like Francisco Franco's Spain, run by "christian gentlemen"
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RandySF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-01-11 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. In other words, Latin America or China.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
14. Loved this passage:
Edited on Sun Jan-02-11 12:20 AM by Lydia Leftcoast
However, I must concede there are some problems they would likely eliminate. For one, illegal immigration would no longer be an issue because nobody in his right mind would dare sneak into a conservative utopia. In addition, terrorism would likely be a nonfactor because few to no Muslims would want or be allowed to live there, and neo-Nazi militias would have nothing to be upset about, or at least, nobody to scapegoat.

:rofl:
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
16. The Ik
It doesn't matter how much you weigh the charges of inaccuracy leveled at Turnbull, the Ik are pretty much the best model of the end result.

Isn't 'conservative utopia' an oxymoron unless you believe that most people harbor a secret desire to be abused slaves?
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
17. And without the Texas & Lousianna oil refineries a bunch of Northerners will be riding bicycles
Edited on Sun Jan-02-11 01:19 AM by Tx4obama
Texas could be pretty darn self sufficient.
We have oil refineries for gasoline.
Tons of cattle for food.
Tons of farms of vegetables and fruit.
Some of the best medical research facilities and hospitals in the world.

Texas will NEVER secede from the union.
First of all it is illegal for any state to secede,
secondly we have a TON of democrats down here.
Over 3.5 MILLION Texans voted for Obama in 2008.
All but one of our largest cities/counties were won by Obama: Austin, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso etc
(McCain won 'one' large city, Ft. Worth.)

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rury Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Texas also has a lot of poor people, uninsured people
And rightwing redneck school boards.
They can feel free to secede as soon as I move!
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. That's exactly how I feel about it rury -
I have been here nearly 8 years now, and for me it has been like living in a foreign country. Very interesting experience, but I can't wait to get home (I grew up in the midwest, but the east coast became home after school, and that is where I wish to return). Texas does have many of it's own resources, and certainly it's own culture. My vote would be for succession, and I'd move immediately.
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
49. me,too. My partner is a teacher in one of those "poor" schools.
and I take care of those "poor,uninsured".It sucks every ounce of initiative from you...but we stay here and make whatever effort we can for change.


Someone has too,don't they?
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Synicus Maximus Donating Member (828 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
62. And everyone in New York and Michigan is employed and wealthy.
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eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Texas, in correct geographical doses, I understand
is very liveable and enjoyable so long as you are in a a major metropolitan area which, I understand is well populated with residents who have migrated from other areas of the US. You may find a totally different environment in Waco or Buford. People tend to be more liberal/progressive in larger cities where there is an active cultural life.
This is also true of other major cities..


Texas as well as other Red States do have natural resources that can be harnessed to power their economic engines. However, unless they "nationalize" them, they will end up like Third World countries do. I cannot imagine the cognitive dissonance that would be required for them to do so.

There are a ton of Blues in many Southern cities. That is not by accident. (LOL) As my husband says when he is inevitably called "yankee" as a pejorative: "Yep, first we come and take your jobs, next we will take your women and your homes." He is certain that if such a situation occurred in which the Union would again need to be defended; there would be no problem as all that would be needed is to poison the gravy supply. He is in a rural area in the South currently --Sorry to any Southerners, he is quite bald in his contempt for the local slugs who are protected by the trade union yet regurgitate the repub talking points yet laze around denying responsibility or accountability on the job. He also says that with climate change, all the South would need is a good ice and snow storm to hit and there would be immediate surrender. Apparently there was a possibility of snow in early December and the whole town shut down, the only people that showed up for work were travelers from the North and MidWest. "We could just drive down with our plows and sanding machines and take possession of the capital cities." Although with the recent performance of NYC and NJ after blizzard snowfall, I wonder if that is the case anymore. (Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois, The Great Lakes region, N. Dakota, Upstate NY and New England however would be just fine). He admits to having an arrogant cultural bias and since I have visited the town where he is, I have to admit, it is a cultural desert. I'm pretty certain anyone with ambition outside of working for the local power company leaves there as soon as they are able.

Personally, I don't have contempt for anyone d/t their geographical location. At the rallies I went to this year in DC, I met some lovely Democrats from Atlanta and other places located south of the Mason Dixon line. And I can see that perhaps some local people feel frustrated with newcomers--look at Florida. Some may not even consider Florida "the South' (I don't-- but then I don't really consider Texas "the South" or necessarily the "West" either--it's entirely it's own category). Now Arizona would have a big problem without steady import of water and, yes, workers. How many white Arizonians are out there doing landscaping? They may have to change their attitudes. Of course, there will be no secession, it is illegal and I consider the speculation of which an indulgent intellectual exercise.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
69. public land would be a no-no
you'd have the rich buying up those pristine places and either soiling it for profit--or families who'd like to fish would have no access because the rivers and lakes would be owned--private property. There'd be no safe working conditions or labor rights. It'd probably be like when the robber barons ruled over a hundred years ago. Hell, they're attempting to get rid of any regulations now. And, if you get sick from eating contaminated food or die from poor product, there would probably be no recourse, since business is the be all end all. Any innovative idea would probably be stolen by the greediest, look what happened to Goodyear. And, everything would be privatized--probably even more people in prison, so private prisons could even make more profits, privatized schools for those who could afford it, and privatized protection like Xe, who could hire thugs from all over the world to keep the plebes in line for the wealthy. Laws would be for the poor folks-gotta keep them in line.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. but getting into the spirit of the imaginary hypo
Would that cause the US to have higher oil prices? Or encourage the US to drill in the areas it has left? Or make it more accommodating towards Venezuela? In this imaginary world Alaska has definitely seceded too!
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
37. Texas would also lose tons of military money ... and ...
... there are a number of major defense contract companies who would have to move, or would find it much harder to get defense money because every business there would stop being an "American company".

And then, for the GOP, the entire point of joining congress to create conditions under which mega corporations make tons of money so that later they can get even richer when they leave congress and take a position on the board of directors of one of the huge companies they helped while in office.

See Phil Grahamm (former GOP Senator from Texas). Grahamm authored the legislation (back in 99) that allowed insane derivatives trading that caused the recent collapse ... shortly after getting that legislation passed, Grahamm left congress to join the Board of Directors at UBS, making around 12 million a year. If McCain had won in 2008, Grahamm was slated to be McCain's top person on all things financial.

In reality, no "red" state can really leave. GOP House and Senate members would never allow it.
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
20. Those of us in the blue states would be a
hell of a lot better off.
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
21. Virginia won't seceed - our gov MickeyD and Cuckoo Cucinelli both have wet dreams about the playing
on the national stage...
Of course they might see themselves as prez and atty gen of the new xtian states of gawd too... hmmm... It would be annoying to have to move the chickens and beehives and find new land in Penn, but so MUCH LESS annoying than the constant whining of the knuckledragging holier-than-thou xtian closeted kkk-types.

Let them seceed. Encourage it, as long as they take faux news with them.
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eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. I don't know, I think if I lived in
South Carolina, --I'd be very worried about a feudal theocracy developing if there were a secession. There are way too many transplants and DC people in Virginia.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
23. I think they should update that map a bit
Edited on Sun Jan-02-11 07:47 AM by Art_from_Ark
Some of those territories had become states before the war started-- namely, Minnesota (1858), Oregon (1859), and Kansas (January 1861).

(On edit-- referring to the map mentioned in post #6)
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CanonRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
26. ...and churches
"The fascinating thing about conservatism is that many poor people subscribe to its principles thanks in large part to Fox News and talk radio"

I would add ...and churches. In my area, the conservative churches reinforce everything Fox says. Limbaugh on Sundays.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
27. It would probably look like the Confederacy ...
with additions from the West.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
28. It would look a lot like feudalism
A tiny entrenched monied class ruling over a vast majority living in impoverished serfdom; no judicial constraints upon the arbitrary use of power; either rigged elections or no elections at all; a corrupt aristocracy beholden to the monied class; repression of dissent through torture and imprisonment; and the uneducated masses looking pitifully to religion to solve their ills. Come to think of it, I guess it wouldn't be all that different than what we have now.
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Kievan Rus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
29. I'd be all for them having their own country, just as long as they didn't have nukes
Edited on Sun Jan-02-11 10:33 AM by Kievan Rus
Because somebody like Sarah Palin would be stupid enough to actually use them.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
30. It would have no minimum wage and be on the Mexican border
the Texans would be "able" to work for the going value of labor, which might be below minimum wage. That would stop illegal immigration from Mexico. OTOH, if the economy did provide wonderful jobs for all Texans - as conservatives claim it would - they would have an influx of immigrants from Mexico for the low wage jobs. Wonder how they'd handle that. They might have to recognize Spanish as an official language, too.

They might be subject to that old saw about being careful about getting what you want.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
32.  I'm Secretary of State, brought to you by WhataBurger


Pvt. Joe Bowers: What *are* these electrolytes? Do you even know?

Secretary of State: They're... what they use to make Brawndo!

Pvt. Joe Bowers: But *why* do they use them to make Brawndo?

Secretary of Defense: Because Brawndo's got electrolytes.
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
33. So...do you include Ohio, Wisconsin and Michigan on that list of Red States?
Just Asking...
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
34. Really, really, white - and really, really, stupid.
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NoGOPZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
35. The real question is whom would they blame for all their problems
with their usual suspects presumably banned from their one party utopia.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
36. I take it you meant to say "Right-wingers", not Red States
Despite the overwhelming belief system here: that every resident of parts of the country with an abundance of believers in fundamentalist conservatism shares those beliefs, many of us here are actually at the Left edge of the political spectrum. And many have chosen to live here for factors unrelated to politics.

Local bumper sticker -

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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
38. I say, let's find out!
Now! I'll help them pack! DO IT TEABILLIES!
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NYC Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
40. It would look like what we had under the Articles of Confederation
The states would have all the power, the federal government would be at their mercy. It didn't work then and it wouldn't work now.
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lepus Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
42. I really doubt if the paradise the blue states envision would come to pass.
Banking: quite a bit of the red states output is paid to corporations that hold interest in the red states productivity. If secession happens, money flowing that way stops as a method of not giving aid to the enemy. Truth be told, all foreign interest in red state companies would likely be dissolved and red state stockholders would own all local interest in companies. Remove all profits from agriculture and energy creation, the blue states economies will crash.

Food: Red states produce most of the food or food stocks needed for the nation. Remove red state produce and most of the west coast starves unless they decide to import from south america. If the red states want, all they have to do is disrupt shipping and the west coast becomes a client state. The east coast would likely be a bit more problematical, but would fall shortly after the west.

Power: The east coast has the capability of being self sufficient on energy with the aid of Canada. The west coast does not. Removal of red state power plants from their menu means constant blackouts, many structures become unlivable, and a marked loss of quality of life. Disruption of the eastern states power would not be hard. Power in the red states is much more decentralized and can stand more abuse than the blue states. If there is a shooting war, it will suck to be in a blue state during civil war 2.

Water: Ditto on water. East coast would have a higher likelihood of being independent. California, not so much.

Military: You might want to remember that an extremely high amount of the current military are from red states. While they may not help the red states all that much during a civil war, their absence means that much of the high technology weapon systems will not work for the blue states either.

While many of you think that losing the red states would be a good thing, unless you like living an 1800's lifestyle, I would think it through a bit.

I am not advocating secession. I am strongly opposed to it truth be told. But, in my opinion, it would hurt the blue states far more than the red states.

Ways to keep this from happening. If you live in a red state, volunteer or donate to your local democrat party. Keep the numbers of dems in red states high enough that silly shit like this is not even a possibility.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. That shit about food is wrong..... California
out produces most of the south and a bunch of your other facts are wrong and inaccurate.


Food Facts
California has been the number one food and agricultural producer in the United States for more than 50 consecutive years.

More than half the nation's fruit, nuts, and vegetables come from here.
California is the nation's number one dairy state.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Most of it is wrong
The corporations aspect for example. Blue state corporations would suffer, but red states would be hurt far more when you consider they would simply be doing without.
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lepus Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. while California is known as the land of fruits and nuts,
try to feed your population on them without imports. Good luck.

California does not have the capability of feeding it's population above starvation level if left to it's own means.
Far more food is imported into California, calorie for calorie, than it exports.

Where is the water coming from to feed these massive fields to provide for your population?

Where is the grain belt at? California is not known for it's massive grain exports unlike a more than a few red states are.

Where is the fuel coming from to drive agricultural equipment? Moving produce from the producers to the consumers?

As far as dairy goes, remove outside energy, water and feed stocks, those cows are going to be eaten pretty quick when people start getting hungry and the cows start getting thin.

I'll stand by my statements. Secession of the red states would be very bad for all concerned. California would quickly devolve into a hell hole of mad max proportions.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. What???
We grow enough rice to export it to Asia. How's about that for grains? Our whole Central Valley grows just about everything under the sun including cotton. We have oil and other energy sources and we produce the best weed in the world. Quite honestly we could be self-sufficient with no problems because we also have most of the main seaports on the West Coast. Much of the USA military is based here. There is plenty of water. We need a better way to distribute it. A lot of our dairy is goats. We have some of the best cheeses from those critters. There is plenty of pasture for cattle and horses throughout the state.
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lepus Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. Thank you for a better response.
Rice only grows in limited areas. While it is an export, it does not make up near the kilocalories that would be required to feed the population.

Your navy would predominately be made up of red staters. Do you think they would allow them to be used against their kinsmen?

While you have oil, California has done little to make use of it. How much of your fuel is imported?

I like goat cheese and have raised goats. But cheese will not feed your population.

You have the greatest coast land in the world darn near. It is pristine in many places and beautiful. You have great port cities. Do you think that the red states would not use deterrence to render them useless?

You have a lot of pasture land. Based on the last estimate I saw, it takes roughly 30 acres or more of California pasture land without feed or supplemented hay to raise a cow. Oklahoma it only takes six. Many of the red states can produce cattle far better and cheaper than California can.

Sorry to say it, but if there is a civil war redux, California will end up folding fast. This is not a comment against the quality of your farmers,people, or politics, but against population density, environment, and existing infrastructure.

I have said it before and will say it again. CWII would be bad for all involved. I can understand state pride getting in the way of reality, but as I see it, California is unsustainable without imports unless the population is reduced by a lot.

As many idiots as I see in my own red state advocating secession, I really do not want more idiots in the blue states egging them on. It would be bad for all concerned in the long run.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Well, California isn't interested in seceding, except
in some neo-Nazi enclaves up the the Sierras, however, if we were isolated somehow, we would do just fine. You forget that we have natural food here too, that the Chumash Indians exploited to make their bread, like acorns and corn. You don't just need wheat to make bread. The military bases and hardware are what we would have left behind. We can train our own citizen militia to man them. We are leading the nation in going over to solar because people like the idea. Ethanol is making headway too and many of the cars on the road, including mine, can run on it. Also, much of our oil is manipulated by the oil giants. I say we kick them out. You don't need to have a lot of cheese to survive. We have a whole ocean of edibles out there. We really don't need cows. Some people like them. Steak should be a luxury like it is in other countries. We don't have to do things like they have been done just because it's the way it's always been done.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. You are ignoring that most of the farming requires power that CA does not produce
and that the rural areas are hardcore red.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. I know that. I live in a rural area and I know how
Edited on Sun Jan-02-11 03:15 PM by Cleita
my neighbors think, which is why I don't socialize much with them. However, our farm workers are unionized for the most part. I agree that we have to do better on improving our power grid. Arnold couldn't do it because he was beholden to the energy oligarchy. PG & E needs to be reined in where I live. In my area, believe it or not, our local government, mostly Republicans are actually trying to promote solar and wind to power to down size our local nuclear plant and loosen PG & E's grip.

I know the San Joaquin Valley is super red. I live near the beach and we get an invasion of the people from there every weekend. They are really Limbaugh and Beck drones, but we don't mind taking their money. I appreciate your stance but we were really trying to dispel some myths about California. We really could do it on our own if we had to. I know the feds would invade us if we even tried, but theoretically we could have a thriving economy without any outside influence.

Sure we would have to rein in the waste of power and water that is taken up by the greater Los Angeles area, but we should do that anyway.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. The Point is....... California is blue in the legislature.
Senate and Govenorship.


Not like ...... Southern States........


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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. For sure it is. Thank the Goddess. n/t
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lepus Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
90. If the red staters disable the navy you have
you ain't getting them back without a lot of work from the red state facilities that made them in the first place.

While the Chumash indians exploited natural resources to feed themselves, try doing that for 36 million people.

Making ethanol while importing grains is raising the starvation level on someone. The person who cannot afford the inevitable price increases in food is going to starve along with his family. Can you say riots in the streets?

I am going to agree that California milk and cheese production along with meat would go by the wayside in a civil war 2. Much better to feed the population directly.

That ocean of edibles. Try living on it till spring. If you have to go to the store for food when you get hungry,,,

I'm a farmer. I'm likely too conservative to be a true liberal but I have too many liberal thoughts to pass the purity test for a conservative nowadays. As a farmer, I tend to look at food production from alternate standpoints than most.

California has too many weak points to stand by itself. From energy production to food production, it is not self sustaining. As an example, remove outside fuel sources, I've already done food. At some point the choice will be made between food production and infrastructure. Remove outside electricity, similar choices will be made.

Now we get into the root of my argument. Most of the red states are in the same boat on a state level. Our current standard of life is not sustainable in most states without the cooperation between states that exists with trade. We are joined at the hip in a literal sense in order to enjoy the level of comfort we do.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. I want you to succeed...
We haven't even mentioned tech or movies which are some of biggest exports.

Sure you got Austin......

and the space shit that was given to you
because your poor status and needed a break.

Now...... lets talk about wheat....

care to back up your crap?


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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #57
67. Secede is the term you're looking for, I believe.
:eyes:
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Well....... I was just checking if anyone
noticed the difference?

Sometimes I think the words mean the same thing.
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lepus Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
89. While tech is one of California's biggest exports
On a war footing that would not exist. Yes, the red states make a lot of their movies nowadays also. We have been doing it since the tech got a lot cheaper in the 80's. While California is currently still the hot bed for entertainment, I expect that to last as long as major record studios. ie the addition of competition will make a central power controlling price unsustainable.

California wheat for 2009:

Exported:300,000 tons
Imported 7,000,000 tons

Net weight of grain imported? 372 pounds per person.

That 6,700,000 tons is a big difference. With a population of 36 million, that amount of food not coming in is the difference between starvation and survival for a lot of people.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
88. You seem to assume that there's no place in the world that California can buy food from...
...except the Midwest. California has enough wealth to buy their
grain elsewhere.

Tesha
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. You don't have any idea what California produces
Edited on Sun Jan-02-11 01:45 PM by Ichingcarpenter
Let alone Oregon, Hawaii and Washington.


You make up facts.

BTW.... the South can't grow Hops nor decent grapes for beer or wine.


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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #51
78. Texas has a TON of wineries
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. None World Class
It also has tons of fracking.
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #81
85. Well there ya go, Texas will never secede from the union due to our not having 'world class' wines
LOL :)

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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. The Grapes need cool evenings and nights just like strawberries.
Otherwise they produce more water than taste.

Texas doesn't have the climate to produce great grapes.

Now white grapes need even more care and weather.

The Southern Climate of the US doesn't produce good wine grapes.

Even in most of Italy and Greece you don't need an air conditional at night most of the time.
The good grapes are in the highlands.........you have none.

Now.... talk about Mexican wines.......

Nada..... but Chile?... yes.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #42
64. The red/blue state concept is silly. CA is mostly red by territory
The food producing parts of CA are by and large red.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #64
74. I think you could be wrong if everyone, who could,
voted. It seems only the white people vote in the Central Valley rural areas. Also, my congressional district is lumped in with Kern County or Bakersfield. It is so red our Congressman, Kevin McCarthy, never has an opponent so he automatically gets seated, like a king. I asked the local Democratic Party why they don't run a candidate against him and they say the seat is un-winnable so they don't even try. Now there is a big Mexican American population in the Central Valley, and I believe if we found our Loretta Sanchez to run against him they would vote and you would see a turn around in the demographic. So much of this goes on in California in supposedly red districts and I blame our Democrats for not getting in there changing things around.
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
45. Like the old South Africa ? nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
80. That removal of the truth on history was interesting
I do know South African history and the Afrikaans and the the US South
having studied at least three semesters on each.

In political Science we study power structures
and the Afrikaans did what I said in the deleted post.

They gave big breaks to their poor white farmers then not
Now there are many studies that do compare
the US South to the Afrikaners' history

I find the censorship of this dialogue

Disheartening for DU

I do think your analogy has merit as does academic studies
in sociology, history and political science.

Once again...... its how and why the Afrikaans lost their base
and I think the American Power elite will lose theirs.




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craigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
53. It would look like Somalia- no real government to speak of and everybody has a gun.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. But some of those idiots like it that way.
I say let them do it. The underpopulated areas of Nevada are already being run like that with the residents pretty much ignoring the laws anyway. We, on our part, would have to take in refugees that the stronger ones might try to exploit.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
56. Why are state boundaries sacrosant in that kind of analysis?
State boundaries are mostly artificial, especially in the western states. California is blue only in terms of votes. In terms of land, its mostly red. Same could be said of other states.

There have been proposals to redo state boundaries in the past. They make more sense as time goes on.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. So you say....... its only rural vs urban?

To an extent but not totally.

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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Are you saying....... WE DON'T HAVE REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY?

Where the Rural minority.dominates the majority?
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. I am saying the urban tends to a lot bluer than non-urban
Pennsylvania is a good case in point, as in California.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. Actually You Don't have representative Democracy
At least admit that.

Land Mass does not equal humans.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #66
87. Unclear what your point is...mine is that the state boundaries are artifical
and there very divergent areas within places like California.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
63. You'd have to include all the neoliberals with the conservatives.
Who would have to migrate to balance that out? There are neoliberals and conservatives in every state. Given a choice, would the population of people who wanted to secede with the conservatives and neoliberals be more than, less than, or equal to the rest?

Including neoliberals makes a much larger group. It might be that only a few states need to secede; they can be populated by the LEFT.

I suggest all states from the Rockies to the Pacific Ocean secede, and let the neocons, conservatives, and neoliberals have the rest.

:hide:

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #63
73. Well, some liberal states on the East Coast would
disagree with you. Years ago someone put up a map with the middle and southern states being a nation called Jesusland and the rest I believe joined up with Canada on both coasts. I really don't remember exactly but it was hilarious.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. I think there are states in every region that would disagree, lol.
Anyone who loves the geography and climate of their home would.

Personally, I've been in love with the west since I first hit the Rockies in 1967. I've rarely been east of the Rockies since, and never because I actually wanted to be. I love soaring mountains, rolling foot hills, canyons, ridges, snowy peaks, dry air...

I'd rather kick the cons, neocons, and neolibs out than have to leave home behind.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
83. I hate to quibble, but not all red states are alike.
Edited on Sun Jan-02-11 04:45 PM by Blue_In_AK
I don't think anyone would argue against Alaska being a Republican state, but this is a not a teabagger haven, as Lisa Murkowski's write-in victory proves, nor are we a fundie mecca, since we are regularly at the very bottom of those "most religious states" statistics. We still have legal abortions, no death penalty, essentially legal pot, our economy is in good shape, and our unemployment is lower than most of the rest of the country. We have that socialist Alaska Permanent Fund. We have state-sponsored insurance for the hard-to-insure, inexpensive housing for seniors, Denali Kid Care to help with medical care for low-income kids. Anchorage is very minority-friendly, with a 50-50 school district where 97 languages are spoken. We have taken in a big contingent of Hmong and Somalian refugees. This is just a friendly place.

In my opinion, these kinds of red-state, blue-state generalizations are a crock. There are good progressive people in every state of the union, and there are conservative assholes everywhere, too.

I'm just kind of tired of it.



Oh, and one more thing -- the only state in the union where Sarah Palin is more unpopular than she is in Alaska is Massachusetts. !!
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
84. Mexico would suddenly have it's own "Illegal Alien" problems
With folks running down there looking for jobs ;)
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Boudica the Lyoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-11 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
86. I live in the red part of a blue state.
The near by very conservative tiny town borrows from the State government, and maybe the Federal government, millions of dollars, I think it's up to five million now. It cannot pay it back yet they still have paid people looking for more government grants, low interest loans, pretty much any hand out really.

I know they gave false information when they applied for this money and also have not been at all honest about the results of what they did with the money.

Our state has huge cut backs on programs for the poor and also things like education and here's these local republicans throwing away money on scams from other republicans.
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