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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 07:49 PM
Original message
Digby: 60% of US Teens Believe Torture Is OK
Shocking: 60% of US Teens Believe Torture Is OK


MSNBC just did a story on something that I had wondered about as well --- why were so many big celebrations after the announcement of bin Laden's death particularly raucous among college students around the country? They showed footage of various campuses and interviewed a couple of the students who explained that they were in the 6th grade when it happened and were just thrilled that it was finally over and that justice was finally done. It was truly a huge, patriotic moment for them.

I realized that the "War on Terror" has been going on for half their lives, so it seems like forever to them. And it reminded me just how much the zeitgest of the moment is "reality" when you are young. The GWOT and the militarization of America is just the way the world is to young people today. Which is probably why they also believe in this:

A new study by the American Red Cross obtained exclusively by The Daily Beast found that a surprising majorityalmost 60 percentof American teenagers thought things like water-boarding or sleep deprivation are sometimes acceptable. More than half also approved of killing captured enemies in cases where the enemy had killed Americans. When asked about the reverse, 41 percent thought it was permissible for American troops to be tortured overseas. In all cases, young people showed themselves to be significantly more in favor of torture than older adults.

Torture has been around as long as there have been wars, but media coverage of enhanced interrogation techniques has risen the visibility of torture since the attacks of September 11. Could the generation who came of age since the towers fell have a different notion of whats acceptable in a time of war? Over the past 10 years, theyve been exposed to many new conflicts, says Isabelle Daoust, who heads ARCs humanitarian law unit. But they havent been exposed to the rules. ..............(more)


.............(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/578084/sho... /



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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 07:51 PM
Original message
THAT is the longest surviving legacy of OBL.
Edited on Tue May-03-11 07:51 PM by Bonobo
Not the Towers which the US still has not been able to rebuild.

It is the death of the image of the US as the good guy, both from within and from without.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. It is a legacy of bush
Perhaps if we did not try to overthrow so many countries the world would have less terrorists armed by the US
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freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. With every GOP figure sanctioning it and FOX's '24' on the air, what do we expect?
Not only that, numerous movies, video games and programs acting as if brutalizing people is admirable, if they are seen as inferior or a threat. Even some evangelical churches said it was okay. Everything is okay, if it's for 'national security.'

Our morals and sense of decency and tolerance for differences are long gone. Look at this cesspool they grew up in. Anything seen as kind or humane is considered a weakness, anything not perfect or profitable isn't deemed worthy to live.

We don't have the moral standing to begin to change the media culture when we won't prosecute those responsible. They bred a mindset to get people to go and invade other countries for money.

I don't know how to turn the tide back. It might take another generation, but by that time, will there be anyone still left to teach that things were ever any different than this?

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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Maybe it is too late for this country........
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
67. Wow. So eloquent and so true. I wish I could rec your response. Thanks - n/t
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freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #67
108. Thank you very much. I'm sure I'll get flamed any minute...
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
71. I also blamed the movie and video games industries in my mind.
Edited on Tue May-03-11 11:58 PM by Amonester
While reading the OP.

Where all this 'torture works' nonsense will lead humanity I too often ask myself.

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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #71
82. might as well blame heavy metal music while you're at it.
Works for the Christian fundamentalists.
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pot Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #71
94. Yeah its all the videogames fault I tell ya! /sarcasm
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
91. You are absolutely right. They have been desensitized to the violence and many feel
that violence is acceptable behavior in many circumstances. If their heroes and role models are violent, what do we expect of them?
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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #91
130. Fascination with violence isn't a new thing
Nor is it unique to the US.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #91
138. Have they really been desensitized to violence?
Or merely to fictional violence?

I play the occasional shooter and that has not changed my views on actual violence, or my gut-reaction to how scary it is.

When I'm walking through the mall I manage to not confuse it with the Locust stronghold. Somehow.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #138
154. Remember the leaked video/audio of US troops begging to take out the civilians
Edited on Wed May-04-11 06:23 PM by FiveGoodMen
on the ground below?

Do you really think they know the difference between ficional and real anymore?
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #154
155. Troops went off the deep end in Vietnam
I have no doubts some soldiers/units went off the deep end in most wars. I think it is a result of war messing you up mentally. I know it did with me but I didn't go off the deep end.
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drokhole Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
93. +1000 A damn fine post! nt
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Cal33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
104. And teenagers are the future of our country! The GOP and their propaganda media
are turning our nation into the most aggressive and sadistic people on earth.
It's sickening!
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mountainlion55 Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
118. 100% Agree
Just walk by your local H.S. and see how many kid are dressed in ROTC uniforms and junior CEO suits. :smoke:
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
122. Only GOP?
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
112. And the corporate media propaganda machine, it is they that program in one fashion or another how
all the ticking bombs were defused and innocent people's lives were saved because some "hero" had to torture some "villain" in order to get critical information in a timely manner.

I have no doubt the Hitler Youth were brainwashed as well to believe that torture was necessary while their adversaries/enemies were demonized.

In this sense the U.S. has become what historically it claimed to hate the most.



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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
128. +1
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
134. You are right.
It is the Bush legacy. And now the U.S. wears the black hat.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
148. And the legacy of Obama. He owns it now.
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russspeakeasy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
162. Thanks, Dragon
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Matt Shapiro Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
166. True, but it is also the legacy of Obama, who has refused
to prosecute the torturers or those who ordered it or those who provided false "legal" support for it.
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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
129. To be fair, the idea of the US being a 'bad guy' goes back a long way before 9/11
I think it did get a boost after the invasion of Iraq, but I wonder how much of one. It seems to me that many people have added post-9/11 US foreign policy actions to an already existing 'jacket' of misdeeds, rather than creating a new folder, if you will.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Too much 24.
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renegade000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. indeed
The fantastical narrative of having to torture someone to obtain vital information to save thousands of lives at the 11th hour is one that unfortunately people don't seem to apply much critical thinking to.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Well it is about a 24 hour period, not about years and years of painstaking detection.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Yes, and "Taken"
Edited on Tue May-03-11 08:59 PM by NashVegas
Once I saw that movie I lost a lot of respect I had for Liam Neeson, for associating with that little piece of torture porn.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
40. Not sure why
The movie is fiction.

Doesn't necessarily mean the actor agrees with the character. I think of Clint Eastwood when he was criticized for the ending of Million Dollar Baby he said, "I've gone around in movies blowing people away with a .44 magnum. But that doesn't mean I think that's a proper thing to do".
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
68. The clintessential Clint Eastwood movie, imho, is "Unforgiven". Not
sure the genre of the Western remained standing after Eastwood finished it off.

Eastwood also famously bitch-slapped right wingers who were trying to suppress dissent by saying 'Freedom of speech is the American way" but, for the life of me, I cannot find the citation or the occasion for his comment.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #40
85. Dirty Harry Wasn't Propaganda, AFAIK
And the character's use of violence was also treated to a decent amount of criticism. The Dirty Harry movies - and most of Eastwood's violent films - are actually thoughtful. Taken was nothing more than a popcorn movie with exploited women and black ops.
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Tommy_Carcetti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
97. Glad to know I wasn't the only one who was annoyed by that movie.
While others saw, "Look how badass Liam Neeson is!", I saw "So Liam Neeson finds it necessary to shoot a guy's wife to get what he wants? Really?"
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Cid_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #97
136. Really?
You wouldn't shoot someone in the arm to save your daughter?
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Tommy_Carcetti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #136
140. That situation was so Hollywood BS ridiculous, but even in that context, no....
Edited on Wed May-04-11 04:07 PM by Tommy_Carcetti
....not someone who had no involvement with her kidnapping, as the movie presented itself. From what I remember of that dumb movie, he went to confront the French policeman, who apparently was being bribed to keep his mouth shut, and he decided to make him talk by shooting his wife, who was not involved in anything from what I remember.

Just a stupid, stupid movie.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
48. Too much US policy
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
157. and Saw 24 coming out soon.
so much and too much of this shit out there, it sure can't do any good.
people claim it does no harm, but what good does it do?
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. The next demographic wave of young voters...
:scared:

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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
41. Just spend a lot of time on Youtube and you will "weap" for the future of humanity.
And most of the people doing the "fuck yeah let's rape and kill sum hajjis111!! fuckin A gobbledygook 133tspeek" are students... They won't grow up to be any nicer, merely more civilized as they learn how they're expected to behave at their high paying workplace. They'll kick back on the weekends. Time for a little of the ol' ultraviolence...
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #41
69. They certainly won't enlist. They'll leave that dirty work to the white trash,
sp**cs and n**gg**s. Oh, they might be officers but, if so, I'm sure they'll be REMFs (Rear echelon mother fuckers).
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antigone382 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
111. Yes, that's exactly the makeup of the younger generation.
If you think a collection of youtube responses is a valid sample of the mindset of young people, then you need to take a sociology course, or maybe hang out with some young people and try to understand what they're actually all about. No age group is a monolith. There are plenty of ignorant as well as thoughtful comments put out by people of any generation visible on facebook, various news sites, and even DU. My life is rich with thoughtful, helpful, hard-working young people who don't deserve to be systematically maligned based on a single poll or a few ignorant youtube comments. Broad brushes are no better against an age group than they are against a gender or an ethnicity.

I would really love if DUers could learn to can the Clockwork Orange references, realize that people have been bemoaning the flaws of the next generation since at least the time of Sophocles, and acknowledge the positive present in any demographic.
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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #111
132. +1 n/t
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. I just heard on tv, I believe it was HLN, a woman say the information
used to get Osama was reported to have come from one of the black sites established under President Bush. She then went on to ask her guest "So, does this legitimize torture" Her exact words, in a sing-songy tone and just as pleasant a manner as though she were talking about the weather. Her guest more or less said well yes, ....... then I shut it off! I can understand why kids believe it's alright if this is what they're hearing.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sick puppies.


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fivepennies Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. They've even taken to torturing themselves
tats - body piercing - cutting.

I read somewhere a long time ago that when youth moves in self-destructive directions it isn't long until you're looking at a bloody civil war. I think the book was about the run-up to the French Revolution and pointing out the behavior of young people just prior to it. Maybe it was Nesta Webster's rendition of the FR which IMO was the best one.

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. You think body mod culture is "self-torture" and compable to cutting?
:eyes:
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fivepennies Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. No, cutting is definitely a mental issue
that needs serious intervention and is far worse than "body mod culture", as much as I dislike those godawful tongue studs ~ or whatever the hell they're called. And I'm not alone in that attitude. Many employers refuse to hire those who go over the top with body art and adding one more reason for not being hired in this economy is torture of a different kind.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. "Cutting" is a result of a mental disorder...
and those who do it do it in such a way that you'll never see it.

Body art, tats, piercings--that is as old as mankind itself. People who have done it gravitate towards jobs which allow them to have it.

Not everybody wants to work in a vanilla office environment. If you don't like it than don't look--it doesn't hurt you and isn't your business.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Dumb dumb dumb.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. Here's news for you, that was around loooong before this.
As in, old as First Nations and many ancient cultures, as well as ours.

You must live in some nice vanilla area.
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fivepennies Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. First Nations
Yep, and it wasn't called WAR paint for nothing.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
84. Are you kidding?
Have you never picked up a history book, or a National Geographic for that matter?
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
159. Women in Africa and Latin America
were also "modified" by scarification or tattooing. Yet they weren't warriors.

Here's fivepennies. Please buy a clue.

Oh yeah...welcome to DU.
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Dawson Leery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
37. This trend has become very popular this past decade
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
66. And the "sexting"!
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
158. Ah, for fuck's sake...
Yep, I support torture because I have my arms and legs tattooed and my nose pierced. I also have a PhD (well, I will in a week). I'm probably not the youth you're referring to (33), but for the love of God...tattooing is a VERY ANCIENT PRACTICE.

:grr:

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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. Subject one of their loved ones to torture for about 15 seconds. That number will change.
Young people today are such intellectually vapid twits.
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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
133. You should read post #111
'Young people' includes a lot more than just 'vapid twits.' Every generation is diverse.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
142. Hey I'm not a vapid twit!
I'm just full of shit. ; )
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. So Glad I Don't Have Children
and don't have to try to raise a healthy one in this place.
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
141. exactly
I would not wish humanity's next 80+ years on someone I loved as much as I would love my child.
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russspeakeasy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #12
165. I'm glad mine are raised and doing o.k. on their own.
The next 50 or so years look like real trouble.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
14. I hate to have to finally agree to such a move, but it's time to resume the draft...
Edited on Tue May-03-11 09:00 PM by regnaD kciN
When asked about the reverse, 41 percent thought it was permissible for American troops to be tortured overseas.

Get them off the sofa playing war games on Xbox, give them a helmet and an M-16, and stick their entitled asses on the firing line for real, and see if they still think it's "permissible" for our enemies to torture U.S. troops -- or for us to torture their troops, if it will lead to torture in return. :grr:

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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
70. I fully concur. Only problem is that most of them would find a way
to become REMFs, so they would never have to face up to the reality of torture.
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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
16. what do expect? eight hours a day killing and torturing playing video games
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Wow, it took until post 16 before someone starting bashing video games.
:eyes:
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. I like video games but the current wave of video games is fucked up in its extreme action orientatio
Tell me what happened to intelligent video games? Adventure games? Actual role playing games? Non-combat sim games? Hmm? I thought not.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. So when I raze a city when I'm playing Civilization 4 that means I support genocide?
:eyes:
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #52
61. How many pixels died to satisfy your bloodlust, Odin2005?
...Onward
Into the heart of battle
Fought the sons
Of Democratic Underground.
Outnumbered many times
Still they fought on
Blood poured fourth from their wounds deep into the earth
Vultures waited for the broken shells
That once were talking heads
But Odin2005 alone would choose the day
They would enter Valhalla
And in their hour of need
He sent forth unto them
THE BERSERKER RAGE!!!!!
Now gods and men
They rose up from the ground
Screaming like wild animals!
Such is the gift of absolute power
No blade or weapon would harm them
They killed men and horses alike!
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #52
83. Nethack taught my cat how to shoplift.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. Final Fantasy XIII was released not too long ago
Edited on Tue May-03-11 11:18 PM by JonLP24
That game is textbook RPG. They also have another one coming out. A lot of the action video games mix in quite a bet of adventure. Red Dead Redemption is great in that regard. They got non-combat sim games but they are not very fun. PC is better suited for simulations by far.
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pot Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #55
96. I thought FF13 was horrible personally.
I thought FF13 was horrible. Lots of people were disappointed with it. It is nothing like the classic RPGs. It was completely linear, basically a movie with battles in between each boss fight. Lost Odyssey for the 360 is a much better JRPG then FF13 is.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. Thanks
I actually never played it. I played Final Fantasy 8 which I absolutely loved. After that I bought Final Fantasy 9 which was too cartoonish for me and the story wasn't nearly as great imo.
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pot Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #98
102. FF8 was great.
FF8 was great. Sadly, FF13 was nothing like those classic Squaresoft RPGs. It was very linear, you just did a bunch of combat, fought a boss, long cutscene and repeat. There was no towns to actually explore, no shops to buy items, etc. It felt so lifeless.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #42
143. They're all still being made.
Maybe look for them and stuff.
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pot Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #19
95. +1
Videogames are the cause of all that is wrong in this world.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Oh please
That's just a stupid thing to say.
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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. hmm, I love me some violent video games
and I still believe in the rule of law and putting criminals on trial. :shrug:
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. Or the state sanction and preaching of the practice.
Or the media romanticizing.

Or the lack of a serious opposition?
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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #39
74. what kind of shit you smoking? nt
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StarsInHerHair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #39
81. bingo-THE LACK OF A SERIOUS OPPOSITION
& the corpo-media saying for 8 years that torture is ok & it works, having pop culture agree helped a whole lot more. Seeing the Vice President himself saying it was ok ha a tremendous impact. I highly doubt it's video games, it's those in power, in positions of respect & authority, & pop culture that basically stuck a needle in the arms of those young enough to be in the process of forming a world-view, like heroin or meth-torture was forcefully injected as being acceptable. I blame the Left in & out of politics for not effectively opposing this bullshit.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #16
79. As a young person who grew up playing the Battlefield series, I have to disagree.
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #16
101. I play video games.
Edited on Wed May-04-11 11:23 AM by Lucian
In fact, Black Ops is my current favorite video game (get back online PSN!!) And I am anti-torture. About as anti-torture as anyone can get.

Argument fail.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. Quit the youth-bashing folks, many teens are not going to have fully mature ethical reasoning.
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BlueStater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Right. I'm sure I believed in some pretty stupid things when I was a teenager.
Of course, if they still think like this when they become adults then we've got a problem.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
53. Exactly.
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antigone382 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
43. Thank you.
Nothing says maturity and breadth of understanding like an unqualified condemnation of an entire age group as entitled, vapid, self-mutilating, video-game obsessed spoiled twits, based on a single poll.
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jtuck004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #17
105. Absolutely. Wait 'till they grow up and become President. eom
Edited on Wed May-04-11 11:35 AM by jtuck004
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. This is "shocking" and "surprising"?
The only thing surprising is that some people are shocked.
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bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
22. Thank you, Repuke school boards, for taking CIVICS out of public education!
:mad:
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
44. They were being taught commie things, like the Declaration of Independence and the Rights of Man
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
25. That's what ten years of bipartisan support of torture will do.
Young impressionable minds see their leaders implicitly or explicitly supporting torture, they will start to think it is fine as well.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Yes.. As opposed to exemplary and very public justice for the perpetrators.
It's not difficult to understand the inferences.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
147. Exactly
Kids generally believe whatever their elders do. . . And then they rebel. Not impossible that we see a massive anti-torture backlash in the coming years.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
29. How many of these same folks believe pro-wrestling is real?
Yeah, pretty sad I'm sure.
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I'm pretty sure none do. Much less then 30 years ago.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
58. I doubt that, but okay.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
31. I bet a poll of the Nazi youth would have had similar results.
We ARE the bad guys now. Sooner or later the world will take care of us, just as always happens when a country loses its soul to such an extent it becomes a threat to the rest of the world.

Polls already show that this is how the US is viewed. And at the same time, the US is losing its power which it has so abused, so rightly so.
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. If you're equating this country's youth with Nazis, then you've got a fucking mental problem.
Edited on Tue May-03-11 10:48 PM by tranche
What the fuck is going on here?
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. Wow, you sound so tough, using words like 'fucking' and everything.
Edited on Tue May-03-11 11:04 PM by sabrina 1
And yes, I am comparing any country whose youth supports torture in such large numbers, to nazi youth.

This country has gone backwards, we are headed back to the dark ages, as other countries' youth are going in the exact opposite direction. Moving FORWARD, into the future.

If this poll is accurate we have a fucking real problem in this country. I hope that is clear enough for you.

In Egypt and throughout the rest of the Arab world, they are abolishing their torture chambers. The heroes of the Egyptian and Tunisian youth movements were two young men who were VICTIMS of torture. Victims of regimes that were supported by THIS country who were known for their brutal torture chambers. But now, they are no more.

America's youth are returning to the past, while the youth of the rest of the world are moving towards a far more enlightened future.

And if you find it acceptable that we have over 60% of our children who support torture, presumably the likes of those dictators just ousted and hopefully more will be, then it is YOU I have to ask 'what the fuck is going on here'??
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. So the answer is yes.
Too bad. Before going off half cocked and proclaiming the country's youth Nazis, I'd spend a bit more time looking into it.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. If this poll is correct, as I said, we have a serious problem and
I imagine if a similar poll was taken of Nazi youth it would have found that a majority of them too supported torture. I thought I was pretty clear.

I would like to think this poll is not correct, considering that the young people I know certainly do not support torture, quite the opposite. But IF IT IS, then yes, we have a very, very serious problem.
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Ok, so no youth that you know are Nazis, and none that I know are Nazis, then where are the Nazis?
So this poll may bring up some issues that can be corrected with education, but to reach fo the Nazi card so quick, is to me just dumb.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #60
75. There is a poll in the OP. The poll claims that a majority
Edited on Wed May-04-11 01:44 AM by sabrina 1
of America's youth believe that torture is okay and a substantial number of them believes it is okay if US soldiers are tortured should they be captured.

I do not know if the poll is accurate. However, I am posting in the thread where this poll has been presented and that is what I am reacting to.

I will say it again. If this IS accurate, then this country has some serious problems. I find it to be outrageous and if true, a serious problem that needs to be addressed immediatel.

I certainly did suggest that if a similar poll had been taken of Nazi youth, a similar result would most likely have been found. You have reacted as if that is an outrageous statement.

Do you think that Nazi youth would NOT have produced similar results? Do you think they WOULD? I'm not sure what you are objecting to.

But I will say it again, this poll SHOULD produce outrage in any civilized society. And if it is not accurate, then someone needs to correct the information.

If it is, then no time should be wasted doing something about it.
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #75
149. Do you know what any similar poll's results where in the 90s? 70s? 50s?
How are you drawing your conclusions? It's a single poll with absolutely no context. I don't know about you, but I didn't see a lot of youth giving two shits when we fire-bombed entire Japanese cities, when you could hang those of a different color without anyone caring, when every person of Japanese decent was rounded up and left in camps. Was that a better time? Better than today?

The kids are fine. To equate them with Nazi youth is disgusting for any right thinking person. That's my objection.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #34
88. The process by which we got from my childhood to now is absolutely analogous.
Edited on Wed May-04-11 10:19 AM by lumberjack_jeff
It's an alien country. We're the frog boiled slowly.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #31
72. Um, Sabrina 1, do you think my 8 years protesting twice- and
thrice weekly against Bush in the streets will somewhat indemnify me from the final reckoning? :)

I fully hope so but am afraid I may have placed a bet on a long shot. I protested against Bush so that I could say to my progeny that I did everything within my power to stop the fascism.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #72
76. Good for you for protesting all of what led to where we are today.
We tried, I'm sure that counts for something. The odds against us winning were far greater than we knew though. Torture is now 'debatable' in this country. There is not regard for the law, and our current president doesn't think we should holding torturers accountable.

Still, I look at other countries where things were even worse, like Egypt and Tunisia and see them smashing the infrastructure of their 'security state'. Tunisia, I read recently, is now freer than the US. In just a matter of months, they kicked out their dictatorial regime, shut down the torture chambers and ended the 'state of emergency' that allowed the government to act with impunity against those who dared to raise their voices in dissent.

If they could do all that in so short a time, after so long a time living under a dictatorship, it gives me hope that the human spirit will only tolerate the kind of evil creeping into this society, for so long.

I'm sure you'll be fine when the final reckoning comes. Like you I wanted history to record that not all Americans supported the evils of the Bush era even if we were unable to stop them :-)
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. I will sleep easier tonight and hereafter (I think). I do think a
fiery day of reckoning awaits us. I shudder to think of it.

However, reading your reply reminded me of a really funny, hand-written, sign I saw at one of the early protests against Bush:

"Canada, please liberate us. We apologize for all the moose jokes!" :)

My wife is from Canada, so it made it all the funnier
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. Lol, that is funny!
I'm sure your wife got a kick out of it also ~ :-)
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
32. ridiculous conclusions will be drawn from this
Edited on Tue May-03-11 11:28 PM by tranche
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Ninjaneer Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
127. I think its safe to say
that ship has sailed. Currently being commandeered by Nazi children too.
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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
35. 41% think it's OK for Americans to be tortured by foreign powers?
Edited on Tue May-03-11 10:51 PM by Capitalocracy
Wow. Impressive. So it's not even so much an American exceptionalism thing as it is a we've learned that torture is OK thing.

At least they're not hypocrites about it.

Heavy.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
38. These are the same kids who make up majority of "pop culture geeks" who praise violent games & movie
And condemn those that are insufficiently action-oriented.

Has anyone noticed the death of non-action video games, roughly 10-15 years ago?

And the impending death of non-action movies as "films" go to 3D?

I predict the eventual merger of TV, Internet and video games into a seamless flatscreen VR environment where teens can do their 2 minutes hate against live foreign subjects in real time.

Sort of like Ender's Game.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Note, I say that as someone who grew up w/ games and fun movies but the trend is unmistakable.
Films and games that used to be condemned for their "edgy" content are now criticized as insufficiently bloody and too talky and too intellectual. All that matters is that the graphics are good enough that you can see the blood spatter.

Even "artsy" films and games have become primarily about action content and devoid of real ethics, even some of the oft-seen greatest films of the past 10 years. All spectacle, and when you get down to it, hollow and devoid of analysis of the violence contained therein, i.e. the violence exists solely to satisfy our need to entertain ourselves with violence. It's a cathartic experience.

At least in the old days, we were hypocritical about it.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. These days
Video games aren't fun if they aren't shooters. I like some sports games but I know people who like sports don't like sports video games. I think sports games suffer from a lack of "happy medium" such as either too hard or too easy.

Also with games focusing more and more on online gaming, you'll see more shooters because those games are terrific to play against other people online. Also shooters factor in a lot of things that make games fun such as character building and open world gameplay. Though besides GTA, shooters are not really open-world. Borderlands is semi-open world.

Other than that I can't think of modern day console non-action game that is fun. If you like strategy based games, PC is definitely the way to go. Strategy games on consoles are horrible. I think it is because there are certain things you can do on games for PC that you can't do on games for consoles, the reverse is also I think.

As far as films, I think there are plenty of non-action films but I could be wrong.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. The funny thing is I'm a big fan of cheesy action epics
But there has to be good acting and story and music.

Conan the Barbarian, for instance. A movie they are sadly remaking without Arnold!
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
56. If you think non-action video games are dead, you aren't paying attention.
Get a Wii.
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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #38
135. I don't have a Wii, but I get the impression that 'non-action video games' are its best sellers
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
46. History repeats itself ... again and again.
Unfuckingbelievable.
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Modern_Matthew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
51. Give them time. I went through many stages before arriving where I'm at...
I was in middle school when 9/11 happened and have been glued to current events since then.
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. Are most of your former classmates Nazis?
Just curious. I've got a poster above that's convinced you are.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #51
63. I was 15 when 9/11 happened and me and my peers wanted to nuke Mecca.
Edited on Tue May-03-11 11:32 PM by Odin2005
I clearly remember my classmate and good friend Steve getting all up about turning Mecca into "nuclear glass"... :yoiks:
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #63
80. Same here. I remember talking about nuking the entire middle east.
I was in elementary school/ junior high at the time.

Which is funny because right-wingers are about on the same level as my 12 year old self.
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antigone382 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #63
114. Yep, I was eighteen when it happened.
As horrific as it was, and as worried as I was because of my personal connection to events (my brother was an Army Ranger at the time), there was a part of me that was excited to be part of a "cause," having always envied both the WWII generation and the 60's generation, as contradictory as that seems, because they both had a grand narrative to be part of. I never really found Bush to be an inspiring leader, and I always questioned the Iraq War, but I know I didn't fully understand what the flashing lights of nighttime bomb drops really meant for the people affected. It took me years to really understand the significance of war, and of the U.S.'s role in the world.

Teenagers don't have a fully developed sense of empathy or moral reasoning; the brain doesn't finish developing until the age of twenty-five, actually. But that isn't going to stop the requisite denigration of the character and ethics of an entire generation, based on a single, unreplicated poll.
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BobbyBoring Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #63
137. I was 26 when we had the Iranian hostage crisis
At that time, many people I knew were in favor of turning the entire ME in to a 9,873 hole golf course and all we had was Pong!
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
62. .... :(
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
64. I bet 97% of US parents with teens think torture is ok too.
:spank:
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
65. Torture (and extra-judicial executions) are as American as
cherry pie (with apologies to H. Rap Brown)
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
73. Really not shocking. When we elected a new leader who stood at the moral crossroads
confronted with a choice of paths, and what to do at last about Bushco, we had a chance to choose the ugly harsh light of example and justice. That was too difficult. Instead we chose Holder and Panetta.

Yoo and Bybee aren't in prison for their deeds and ideas. They're both gainfully employed. No destroyers of the CIA torture tapes are in prison.War crimes have been codified into a new DOJ legalese we've come to call simply bad judgement. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are still walking around quite free to rewrite their own versions of history and be on our TV's and in our book stores telling us all about it.

What's the lesson? In what meaningful way have we shown this generation we believe in other rules?
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mochajava666 Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #73
86. Well said
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
87. What have we done?
We did this.

Someone from 1976 couldn't immediately absorb the ways we've changed.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
89. recommend
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
90. How sad is that..look at the way some grew up since 9/11. FEAR, be afraid,
as they hate you for our freedoms. Even if none ever watched Fox News, the remainder of the
MSM gave Bush a pass. 35 Democrats voted yes to the Military Commission Act, the Patriot Act
only reinforces fear too.

We taught them well I guess.
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jp11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #90
116. The country failed them, just as it keeps failing children over and over
with education, foreign policy, wars, etc.

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
92. P)eople who are teens now, have been playing vicious video games since they
could get their little hands around a game controller . Slasher movies are favorites of younger teens & adolescents, and no matter how they get rated, they still get watched..

Life is cheap these days, and many kids have never learned much from parents who are often working long hours just to keep the wolves from the doorstep..

sad all the way around :(
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pot Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #92
99. So it's videogames fault? That is BS.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #99
107. Thank you. We are all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.
:hi:
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Locrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #99
167. video games etc
I dont really think it's the games as it is the isolation that kids get playing them vs INTERACTING (yeah, I know kids interact in games but gimme a break).

We have been divided and conquered. We are isolated narcissists, with little empathy left for "fellow man".

At the very point in history where limited resources, climate change, wars etc where we NEED to cooperate to find the best solution we are retreating into our selfishness.

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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #92
103. See post 101.
Again. Argument fail.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #103
106. Thank you. We are all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.
:hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #92
110. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
100. 60% of teens are idiots.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #100
120. As are their elders running the government?
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
109. K&R. very sad --- Nuremberg Nuremberg
Edited on Wed May-04-11 01:11 PM by Overseas
Do they know what the Nuremberg trials were?

Do they know that people were executed for using waterboard torture?
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
113. until they are tortured themselves
:eyes:
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
115. A generation of ghouls. (Don't trust anyone under thirty.) nt
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #115
121. Which generation is doing the actual waterboarding?
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #121
156. Exactly
It is video games, movies, but definitely not the over 50 Bush Administration
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mountainlion55 Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #115
123. Good one
:applause:
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antigone382 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #115
152. Wow, what a nuanced perspective.
I'm glad your moral compass was fully developed and dead-on when you were a teenager.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
117. And we wonder why bullying has become an epidemic
:eyes:
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
119. "Shocking"? I should think a higher % would be expected. As it will be, a decade hence. Thank you,
Edited on Wed May-04-11 02:13 PM by WinkyDink
Leon Panetta for your wishy-washy response about "enhanced interrogation."
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Blue Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
124. Thanks Bu$hCo
NOT
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
125. Exactly why we made this movie.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
126. Sad indictment of a country gone dark.
Sad indictment of their parents and upbringing. Sad indictment of today's religious community. But I guess silence is consent.
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
131. The Bush administration has forever changed our country's
future and its value system.

And know-nothing right-wingers continually parrot propaganda from the likes of FOX, talk radio, the right-wing "think tanks" and television shows (and movies) which glorify torture.

When I was growing up, we were taught that torture was used only by dictatorial regimes.

The American value of NO TORTURE was set by George Washington.

This story makes me feel very sad. :-(

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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
139. compassion will be gradually bred out of our species.
Edited on Wed May-04-11 04:08 PM by stuntcat
I'm serious.

People who are too horrified by humanity and what we're doing will not give the next 80-90 years to an innocent baby.
But raising a family is still the great definition of Success.. thus the heartless success-monkey will be more likely to have 3-4 babies than the bleeding heart we all so love to mock. Decade by decade the kids will be more accepting of violence, disaster, earth-rape.

I'm afraid I have to go on watching this horror until at least 2050. And that is when I hope someone will contact me in my hospital bed and mock me for how wrong I was saying humans are f'ed. I'm serious.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #139
146. Don't lose hope
My fiance and I (both liberals) intend to make bunches of babies. (Or more likely, adopt a bunch.) They will grow up without TV, and they will get an actual education. If there's a population war between pro-torturers and the anti-, we'll certainly be doing our part. . .

It's a nasty world to bring kids into, but the more kids who can be raised to be generous, empathetic, principled, and respectful of others' right to exist, the better. . .
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
144. well, that is nothing short of tragic
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Skip_In_Boulder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
145. Great, we are raising a whole new generation of psychopaths. n/t
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
150. Any idea what these numbers were for other generations?
Or is this just another public flogging of those damn kids?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
151. They're American teenagers for fuck's sake. Non-issue. Most teens don't think
about such things and especially don't deliberate the moral dimensions of things like torture or indefinite detention.

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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
153. If they're teens, they've never really known an America that was better than that.
And if current trends continue, they never will.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
160. And now they will believe murder is okay...
As long as the victim is "bad" enough.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
161. too young to understand why it's wrong
their cognitive abilities are still developing.
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DeadEyeDyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
163. oh dear
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Avant Guardian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
164. This country is on a collision course with RW disaster
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