I did not support Hillary in 08 -- But her health plan was far better than this

[Armstead]

I'm beginning to think i made a mistake in my support of Obama in 08 over Hillary.

Maybe her campaign promises would also have been compromised,. But I think she would have been much more effective at getting more of that she wanted. And what she wanted -- although not perfect -- was a lot better start than this crap that Obama is pushing now.

It contains aspects that are important -- Strong regulation and requirement that all insurere provide a basic affiordable plan, and a public optin similar to Medicare.

Maybe I goofed.

http://healthinsurance.about.com/od/healthinsurancebasi...

Senator Clinton proposes a plan for health care reform that will provide coverage to all Americans. Her proposal builds upon the existing health coverage infrastructure and promises that this expanded coverage can be funded through savings and cuts in other areas of governmental spending.

Coverage Options

Clinton's plan offers Americans the following coverage options:

* If you like your plan, you can keep it.
* If you don't like your plan, you have two options:
o Choose a new private plan from the menu of federal employee plans available to members of Congress; or
o Choose an affordable public plan similar to Medicare.

Individual Mandate and Consumer Protections

This reform proposal requires all Americans to obtain health coverage. Clinton would enact the following consumer protections to help Americans comply with this mandate:

* Insurance companies would be required to offer affordable coverage to all Americans, regardless of their health status. This means that individuals with preexisting health conditions would be able to obtain coverage in the private market if they so choose.
* Furthermore, Clinton would require that insurers devote a certain percentage of each premium dollar collected specifically towards the payment of claims, rather than towards excessive profits or marketing.
* Clinton's plan also proposes to keep premium rates low by promoting quality and efficiency of care.

Affordability of Coverage

Many Americans are concerned about rising health costs. Although Clinton's plan requires most Americans to contribute to the cost of their health care, she vows to keep costs down for the consumer by enacting the following protections:

* Clinton would offer families a refundable tax credit as financial assistance with the cost of individual health insurance. Because it is a tax credit (as opposed to a deduction) families would receive these funds regardless of whether they owe any income taxes.
* Health insurance premium payments would be limited to a percentage of a family's income.
* Large employers would be required to contribute to the cost of their employees' health coverage.
* Small employers would received refundable tax credits to encourage them to provide their employees with health coverage.
* Safety net programs, like Medicaid and SCHIP, would receive more funding to ensure that all vulnerable populations are reached, including poor adults without children.

Funding

Clinton believes that it will take approximately $110 billion to enact her plan. She hopes to generate this funding through the following means:

* Improving health care quality and efficiency
o Clinton would require all providers to adopt privacy-protected Health IT. This could improve efficiency by ensuring that all providers can access a single, comprehensive medical record for each individual patient.
o Preventive care would be a priority under this proposal. Diseases which are prevented or delayed will not tax the health care system with excess costs.
o People with chronic diseases account for a majority of health care spending in the United States. Improvements in chronic care would help contain health care spending.
o Research on the comparative effectiveness of various drugs, medical devices, and therapies would be supported and funded. Supporters of comparative effectiveness research believe that it can reduce health care costs and improve efficiency by identifying the most effective treatment for a particular disease or condition. It is likely that payments for "less effective" treatments would be reduced or eliminated.
* Eliminating government-authorized overpayments to Medicare private plans
* Redirecting funding formerly dedicated towards uncompensated care
* Negotiating lower prescription drug costs
* Reforming the tax code:
o Clinton would discontinue tax breaks available to families with over $250,000 per year in income.
o The current system which allows employees to deduct the cost of their health coverage before income tax is applied would be limited. Any amount spent in excess of the premium charged under a standard health plan must be subject to income tax.

[ORDagnabbit]

1. and you really think she wasnt blowing smoke up our asses like obama did? really?

[dave29]

2. Armstead, meet bedfellows

.

[Armstead]

4. strange ones?

[dave29]

11. sorry I have zero patience for the "all our Democrats are sellouts, except for my candidate" crowd.

.

[Armstead]

19. She wasn;t my candidate -- far from it

But I am having "buyers remorse" now

[dave29]

30. I was talking about your bedfellow.

[joeybee12]

3. It was at least clear that Hilary understood the issue, she could explain

it in the debates...Obama never grasped the importance of HCR...he just threw out a plan because he had to...the issue is far beyond his intellectual capability.

[HughMoran]

7. "the issue is far beyond his intellectual capability (Obama)"

Do comments like this lead to constructive dialog?

[joeybee12]

14. DOes it matter anymore? n/t

[HughMoran]

21. Does intelligent dialog matter any more?

Do you think ridiculous hyperbole is what we should specialize in here?

[paulk]

29. Obama just wanted something he could put his name on

A political victory, blah, blah, blah.

With the majority we have (soon to be had), we should have gotten a much better bill than the piece of crap we will be getting. But that takes leadership and the willingness to fight for what you believe in. Obama believed in a bill he could put his name on and a place in the history books. What was in the bill was secondary.

[Armstead]

6. I know Obama blew smoke up our butts -- Clinton? Maybe, maybe not.

But I think she would have stuck to her guns much more. And her plan included important elements that Obama abandoned (or didn;t really support to begin with)

[MadBadger]

25. All that smoke in your ass hole cant be good.

[xultar]

9. She was more above board than he was. Also after she got spanked on HCR in the

90's she wasn't about to let it happen again.

Everything you didn't like about her was already a known entity.
Everything everyone loved about Obama was media generated because he was basically an unknown entity. The Obama campaign allowed people to believe things that weren't true. Things like he was a progressive, that shit came from the blogesphere SMS they perpetuated the myth. Just like the myth that the Clintons were racist.

[HughMoran]

18. Glad the primaries are over

that was a stressful time here! Some still haven't moved on...

[dkf]

5. I bet Ben Nelson would never have tried that abortion rider on her.

But they'll do it to Obama.

[xultar]

13. She would have fried his balls up nice and tender.

[dave29]

26. really?

ok.

[ClarkUSA]

33. Yeah, the same way she "fried" Gen. McChrystal on his 80K troop surge/10 yr. war plan. Oh... wait.

Sorry, she supported Gen. McChrystal's 80,000 troop surge/10 year war escalation plan and lobbied Pres. Obama to go with it, too.

[RBInMaine]

8. And once it went to congress, she would have faced the same thing. CONGRESS makes the laws, not

the executive. That is why we COMPROMISE.

[Armstead]

12. I think she would have cracked some heads together much sooner

The deference to opponents to reform like Nelson is why tghis is such a piece of crap.

I think Hillary would have sat them down and said "support this or else."

[xultar]

15. +10

[dave29]

28. and he would have stood up and walked right away from the table.

Who here responds to "support this or else" ?

[Armstead]

38. She would have backed the supporters of her plan too -- Big difference

Obama let the people who supported his stated goals twisting in the wind while he threw his weight behind placating the likes of Nelson and the GOP "moderates."

His lack of back up to those who supported real reform is what ukltimately killed the good things in it.

I think Hillary would have bolstered the position of those who supported her stated goals and offered both some carrots with Nelson along with some sticks to whip him into line.

It;'s hypothetical at this point -- suffice it to say I think Obama either blew it, or didn't really want what he said he wanted.

[ClarkUSA]

43. I doubt it. What did she ever do in her Senate career would lead you to believe that?

She was Ms. DLC Bipartisan throughout her years there, as I recall. She never took a controversial stand that I know of,
nor did she ever stand up on any contentious national issue during her entire time in the Senate. Quite the opposite.

[thelordofhell]

10. Of course, Hillary's plan never got to this stage of passage

So we'll never really know how badly it would have been gutted by Congress. So this is a moot point at best.

The question that should be asked is.....Did Obama ever consult with Hillary about health care?

[intheozone]

16. I agree with you. I don't think Hillary would have been determined

to have Repugs on board with her plan. I don't think she would have wasted all that time and energy trying to be bipartisan. She would not have allowed the Dems in Congress to give away to the Repugs the things that she really wanted in the bill.

I supported Hillary and I had a hidden hope that she, if elected, would not have minded getting a little retribution and taking a little revenge against the Repugs that hounded her and Bill for his entire 8 years in the WH. I was very sorry to see Obama win the primary.

I think this HCR bill is crap, they may as well rename it the Insurance Companies Profit Protection Act. It another Bush "socialize the cost, privatize the profits" piece of shit!

[phleshdef]

17. Her AND Obama's health plans were better. This is what the Senate produced after the fact.

And if you think Hillary would have faired any better as far as keeping the Senate from handing back something just as badly watered down, then you are fooling yourself.

[Armstead]

24. Maybe, maybe not -- But she sure couldn't have done worse

[Orangepeel]

20. and the result would have been the same or worse

Their plans were very similar except for the mandate, which she supported and Obama opposed, so that certainly would have been the same.

My reverse crystal ball is on the fritz, but arguably, she would have had shorter coattails than Obama and we wouldn't even have a fake 60 votes in the Senate. In my opinion, a better bill would have passed the house and nothing would have happened in the Senate, resulting in nothing. I think Clinton probably learned lessons from 1993, but lessons can't overcome asshole Senators.

[kiva]

22. Unfortunatly for her campaign,

the specifics allowed her critics to attack her - "She would have mandates, OMG!!!!!!".

She may also have rolled over so eagerly for the corporations - seems to be a pre-existing condition for politician - but I'm pretty damn sure she wouldn't have spent almost a year trying everything to bring the Repugs on board. She already had a taste of what they can do, and I don't think she would have made that particular mistake.

[dave29]

23. Everyone jump aboard the magic time machine

It's time to re-fight the primaries again.

Honestly there was not a lot of difference in the plans. Hillary thought she could do it on the cheap though, which I always felt was a bit disingenuous.

[goldcanyonaz]

27. ...

[Oregone]

31. You honestly think it would of ended up decent after each congressmen demanded a reach around to vot

Seriously? Everyone's gotta please their corporate master, or no dice. Hence...2000 pages.

[leftofcool]

32. Hillary would not have caved in to the like of Lie-berman

and she would have spit in repuke faces.

[treestar]

34. Details of how this would have been done?

[dave29]

36. personally I think she would have used nunchucks and acid spit

:O

[Armstead]

40. She might have

In wouldn't put anything past her.

Which IMO would be a good thing, as long it is in line with what I wanted.

[treestar]

44. Maybe she has the naked pictures

She should share them with her boss - well maybe not. He is not the type to resort to that sort of thing.

[ClarkUSA]

42. Hmm, the same way she "would not have caved in to the like of Lie-berman" on Kyl-Lieberman, right?

No... wait, she stood with Lieberman on Kyl-Lieberman and her husband held a big rally to campaign for Lieberman
against Ned Lamont in 2006:

"(AP) Bill Clinton, campaigning to save an old friend from defeat, appealed to Connecticut Democrats Monday to put
aside their opposition to the war in Iraq and send embattled Sen. Joseph Lieberman on his way to a new term in office."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/24/politics/main...

"Why is Bill Clinton campaigning for Lieberman? A friend running for Congress tells me it has everything to do with 2008,
Hillary, AIPAC, and Israel." http://www.alternet.org/blogs/themix/39425 /

Lieberman and the Clintons are DLC stalwarts and she never has stood up to Lieberman or any other Republican initiative
until she campaigned last year. In fact, during her years in the Senate, she was known for being Ms. Bipartisan, attending
weekly Christianist prayer groups with wingnuts and holding photo-ops with Newt Gingrich and getting to be good buddies
with John McCain, who she lavishly praised ad nauseum last year.

[saltpoint]

35. If I were hiring someone to draft up a health plan Hillary Clinton would

not be among the first several thousand people on the list.

Bill Bradley would be first.

[dave29]

39. Oh man Bill Bradley. I love that man.

As silly as this OP is, I still would have talked to Hillary though, if nothing else for her perspective on 1993.

[saltpoint]

41. Fair enough. But Bill Bradley should be far higher in the

influence and impact game than he is.

I was a Bradley delegate from my state in 2000.

I still think he's the bee's knees.

[secondwind]

37. Okay, but you need to remember she would have come against the same

assholes in the Senate that we have now.....(on both sides).......

[gravity]

45. Because Hillary could magically wave her wand and bypass Congress

[CJCRANE]

46. Leaked memo: Re: (1) Bush (2) Hillary (3) Dennis

1) Compare Obama to Bush and say he's the same or worse
2) If that doesn't work compare him to Hillary and say Hillary would have been better
3) If that doesn't work compare him to Dennis Kucinich and say Dennis would have been better

[The empressof all]

47. Locking

Although we can see that speculating about the impact of a recreated history can be entertaining, discussions of these sorts are probably better in our fantasy group.....We'll never really know what coulda, shoulda, woulda except it's not helpful.

[The empressof all]

48. Locking

Thanks