Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Obama As A "Third Culture Kid" - what that means & why it is helpful to understand it to "get" Obama

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion: Presidency Donate to DU
 
Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 07:02 PM
Original message
Obama As A "Third Culture Kid" - what that means & why it is helpful to understand it to "get" Obama
Obama As A "Third Culture Kid"

A reader writes:

You are indeed right regarding Cornel West. He is a an articulate, well-read, pseudo-intellectual who plays the part of the black Yoda well, but is ironically very provincial. His world is literally black and white which limits his analytic powers and makes him ineffective as a true intellectual and impotent as a true force for change. Contrast this with Barack Hussein Obama.

Obama, is what we call, a TCKA Third Culture Kid. TCKs grow up as the children of missionaries, or as military brats, or as the children of businessmen. It means that you grew up during your early developmental years in a culture outside of your parents home culture.

In our family we are quite familiar with this term since both my wife and I are second generation TCKs and we are now raising one (Costa Rican/American born and raised in Europe and China). Between us weve been to 70 countries and lived on 4 continents.

TCKs are usually unable to view the world in a simplistic dualistic way. On the contrary, they are usually over-achievers, get advanced degrees, and are infinitely curious about the world. They can accentuate different facets of their personality and experiences based on who they are talking toand its not fake. This is the reason Obama really could connect and appreciate rural farmers in Illinois, fit in with the Harvard crowd, and work as an effective community organizer in Chicagos South Side. Obama is the classic TCK. This is why he represents the new America so wellhe is post-racial, globalized, and a great example of Americas own Third Cultural nature. It also helps to explain why he is so loathed by provincial Middle America.

Yet, you notice that Obama seems to deeply understand them better than they seem to understand themselves. He can be Kansan, Chicagoan, Bostonian, and fittingly really enjoys Hawaii. His key speeches including the Philadelphia race speech, his famous 2004 Democratic Convention speech, and his Cairo speech show that propensity to truly get all sides. This also helps to explain why hes not a closet Muslim terrorist. He is the anti-thesis of Osama Bin Laden with his provincial, dualistic, desire to homogenize the world by creating a Muslim Caliphate. This is the exact opposite of who Obama is at his core.
Osama looked for his father figure in the provincial world of 7th Century and 20th Century Arabia. Obama looked to go beyond his fathers provincial, nave aspirations and became a little bit of everything.

The liberal label doesnt fit Obama either. As you have pointed out, like Reagan or Thatcher, at his heart he is a pragmatist. Like a true TCK, he doesnt romanticize any one culture or ideology. He understands that there is good or bad in everything. Yet another reason why he can also be called the anti-Bush who along with Cheney is trapped in a juvenile Manichaeism.

Look closely at Sarah Palin and George W. Bush. They are not just anti-intellectual but they are deeply provincial people that made sure not to expose themselves to much outside of their comfort zone. Sarah bounced from college to college unable to really fit in anywhere but Wasilla. Not even the Governors mansion felt like home to her so she left that too. Bush grew up in the upper crust East Coast and found his identity as a simple, aw shucks Texan who just knows what to do in his gut. He can be detached from the real world when necessary. TCKs have no choice. They must engage the world.

This is one reason why I do not believe Sarah Palin will ever really run for President: She is deathly afraid of the world. Shes fine with fame and money (and pretending to be relevant assures the cash flow)but she will always need to hide in the tundra from this complicated world. No surprise that on her recent trip to India, she mainly stayed in the hotel and the mall and got out of there as soon as possible.

I wish people would realize that we have a President that was born in the USA, raised in Asia and multi-cultural Hawaii, and who lived in Harlem, and went to uppity Harvard and then spent a lot of time in African-American hoods. Oh, and hes driven up and down the rural highways of Illinois hundreds of times. Furthermore, much of his life was spent in obscurity, so he had to live amongst us normal people paying back student loans. Even as a Senator he lived in a run-down apartment in D.C. This is why I never worried about Obamas lack of experience. All hes had is experience. Even Bill Clinton, who entered into the political upper-class networks by the time he was at Georgetown, looks provincial and cut-off from real America compared to this. Have we ever had a President who has lived in this many American worlds and cultures and succeeded in all of them?

Cornel West and Sarah Palin have a lot in common. They speak the language of a time gone by and really get very little of what is going on.



http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/05/obama-a...


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm a TCK... Most of what is said is true but it only makes me an outlier...
Never fit in. People don't know how to gauge you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well, it sounds like you are not alone and, although it does sound lonely, it also seems to include
some wonderful skill sets for making your way through the world. I have thought of how lonely it does make it sound for TCKs and I've kind of got that feeling from watching President Obama sometimes. It makes the "other" meme pushed by Republicans seem even meaner.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-19-11 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
38. Fellow TCK here. Same experience. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-11 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. You TCKs are all the same, as everyone sez
What the world really needs are more PDQs or whatever.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ineeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. I really liked that you posted this...and understood what this poster from Sullivan's post
is talking about.

But, Average American who votes or who populates the Control in both Dem and Republican Parties are not
"Third Culture Kids." Many might have experienced being on the "Foreign Exchange Students" programs and some might come of some kind of mix of marriage and culture or have family or friends who have.

But, until that FUTURE of the "TCK's" can really take root...it will be the rest out there in America who Votes (even if the machines don't count) and who expect something that's more to what "their view" of America is or should be.

Might be a culture clash until the point where the TCK's finally can get their view across, though.

That was an excellent post...but there is a little whiff of "Better than Thou" in it...just saying...even though I do understand and think that there's good points made. And, the person is sharing experience from a younger perspective...so some hubris is expected. :D

Thanks for posting.

Peace!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. That might be the biggest load of pseudo-intellectual over-analytical crap I've read in a decade...
and it's been quite a decade.

TCK is this season's "indigo children", because some people cannot accept that their utterly average slightly-below-median children are average and not really genuinely-exceptional beautiful and unique snowflakes.

West's kind of lost in the previous cultural paradigm and sees racism where is usually isn't, but that has nothing to do with this garbage. Nor does this junk-sociology has anything to do with the President.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I read you discarding this OP......
but I don't see how you arrive at throwing it in the garbage can.

Can you elaborate on your distinct insight and why you term the op
junk-sociology?

Thanks.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell-A Liberal Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. hmmm..
Sorry..but I have to disagree..... TCKs actually do exist and our government, sociologists, and anthropologists continues to maintain an interest in them and their POV. Personally, I would not include US military brats as TCKs because they grew up on military bases which are just like a "mini" Americas (US cable TV, Honey Nut Cheerios, soda pop, etc.....stuff we did not get "off-base" living amongst the locals....other TCKs here will know what I mean)

People like me, who grew up in 5+ different countries (thus far) before before the age of 18, DO have a different perspective. It's true!

It's not junk-sociology - these are OUR experiences. For example, mine have included 2 civil wars, a ten year famine, an airlift out the country at dawn, a entire life under communism and midnight curfews and, finally (gratefully, university in the USA. (And that is just to name just a few!)

You don't have to disrespect it. Just deal with it. Or...at least..try to little empathy.

There is absolutely no way (knowing myself and the experiences of other TCKs on DU and offline in the real world) that an experience like that does not shape you and the way in which you relate to others and the world around you.

Not saying we are special...nope, we are not. We're all of us brothers and sisters no matter where we come from.

But President Obama, I have to say, shows 100% of these TCK traits and more. (I see it in his patience, most especially)

Just sayin'....my two cents in the pot

P.S.
("provincialism" is not necessarily a negative term...it simply describes a state of mind that says "oh this is nice, let me stay here, it's sooo comfy." Again, not good, not bad, it just is BUT it is is as far away from being a TCK as one can get!)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kind of Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. +1000 But I would say some military brats
like my husband are TCKs because some of his dad's posts were overseas and the family (the parents anyway) loved living off base when they could, and that was a large chunk of their lives.
:rofl: too funny about feeling "special" when most of my formative years was always feeling like an outsider, constantly adjusting and always being the "new girl." I guess that is special but not in a particularly good way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell-A Liberal Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. True.. true...
especially the outsider thing - I like the objectivity on the one one hand, that's got to be good, right? But on the other hand, it can be a little isolating sometimes
....to that so very glad to meet you :)

Very glad to have found this board - I <3 DU :)!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kind of Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Oh, sorry I didn't see your post count before!
Welcome to DU, Hell-A-Liberal!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. bullshit...
Edited on Wed May-18-11 11:08 AM by nebenaube
There is a hell of lot of off base housing, especially around the smaller posts. Some of us were there before AFN had any range. Half the commissary was stocked with c-rations, the rest..., well there was not much of it. There are gas stations on the interstate that carry more variety and stock then our px did. Don't be such an elitist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell-A Liberal Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Fair point...
I know we were all very grateful for what we had

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. welcome to DU, love your handle, please post more! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell-A Liberal Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Thank you!
DU is fantastic - It has absolutely become daily addiction!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. +1000
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueMTexpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. As the mother of two TCKs, a long-term teacher of TCKs,
Edited on Wed May-18-11 10:56 AM by BlueMTexpat
and more recently someone who has successfully worked with adult TCKs - of different nationalities - on meaningful international projects, the OP resonates with me. Because you may dismiss it as "junk sociology" (and your own credentials are ???) doesn't mean that there isn't more than a grain of truth in it.

And no, it's not just because I cannot accept that my "utterly average slightly-below-median children" are average. Talk about "junk sociology" from someone who uses a broad brush to describe people s/he has never met! I'm also talking about the great majority of those TCKs I've known and who are not my own children. Btw, if you knew my children - who are long past childhood and have children of their own - you would see for yourself how the OP is spot on in some respects.

It is undeniable that Obama's unique background and experience have made him the person that he is, actually quite a wonderful person and difficult to categorize through a single prism. That is true of us all, but even more true of those whose cultural experiences straddle different continents and cultures, particularly with parents/steparents from radically different cultures as was true in his case.

Even though I am not happy with everything that he does and am disappointed at what he has failed to do, I still thank all the Powers That Be every day - several times - that we had the great good sense to elect him President instead of the only realistic alternative we had. He was certainly not the lesser of two evils; he was a positive against a negative.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. And there it is. I rest my case! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. +10000!
my thoughts exactly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-19-11 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
35. I agree. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kind of Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. KnR! Didn't even know
there was a name for those of us who grew up in such families.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Do you recognize the traits?
Edited on Tue May-17-11 09:15 PM by Pirate Smile
I've seen a few articles on it - primarily in reference to explaining President Obama.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kind of Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yes, Indeed. Especially the reference to
pragmatism. I think when you don't totally fit in any group because of direct and profound, multiple cultural influences, you've got to figure out who you are by, I think, integrating all of those disparate aspects in your life - hopefully mainly positive ones and realize you have the right to just Be, hence all the varying labels covered in the writer's response to Sullivan critic of Prof. West.

I'll go so far as to say West's littering his interview with personal attacks and, to me, thoroughly watering down his critic of the president, is because he lacks this understanding. If he doesn't lack understanding then, IMO, he certainly doesn't like the multidimensional upbringing that's at the core of who our president is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I raised my kids to be exposed to other cultures as much as possible.
Didn't know there was a name for it. Just seemed like the thing to do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kind of Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I agree! It's so cool that your
kids will most probably be comfortable with who they are in just about any setting. Our similarities so outweigh our differences :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-11 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. It fits with research that suggests that creativity tends to come from interstitial spaces.
Edited on Tue May-17-11 10:56 PM by izzybeans
People who travel in multiple circles have more ingredients to cook with. I'm not sure I'd put West in the fully insular camp though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
16. K&R excellent read
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blasphemer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
17. Interesting. How would this apply to the children of immigrants I wonder
Technically, I "grew up during your early developmental years in a culture outside of your parents home culture" as my parents are immigrants but I did not spend any time outside of the U.S. after our immigration. The description of TCK fits me very well but not my younger siblings who were actually born here in the U.S. They are pretty well assimilated to American culture and subcultures while I am more the outsider - comfortable amongst many cultures and subcultures but not belonging to any.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. This way
When you return to your parent's original culture.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blasphemer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. That makes sense. I did so as an adult - it's interesting to consider those years from that POV.. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
23. This whole TCK thing
I posted this in the other thread and am, as you have, re-posting it here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


President Obama certainly sounds like the other side of the coin from George W. Bush but we're getting very similar results. The same people who ultimately benefited from Bush's narrow knowledge of the world are benefiting from Obama's broad knowledge of the world. The same people who benefited from Bush's lack of intellect are benefiting from Obama's exceptional intellect.

How do Obama's intellectual defenders like Melissa Harris-Perry explain this? How can two so dissimilar leaders produce such similar results?

Bush was intellectually incapable of interpreting this complex world while "TCK" Obama is so intellectually capable of interpreting that same complexity that he becomes lost in the minutia to the point where he loses track of the simplest equation, right and wrong, by continuing and even expanding the policies of his predecessor, refusing to turn back the myriad errors that led us to this point.

I agree with Professor West on the many factual points in his argument regarding the course President Obama and the current Democratic leadership have taken yet Ms. Harris-Perry has chosen to largely ignore those facts and attack Mr. West on personal grounds. This is the sign of a person who can't refute the facts presented.

This whole TCK thing sounds like an excuse to try to be everything to everyone but President Obama is being everything only to a very narrow group of Americans so far while leaving the great majority behind suffering through the detritus of the world his predecessor created, and he is doing so by continuing and expanding Bush policies while refusing to hold Bush or any of the oligarchs responsible for the crash this nation is suffering through responsible. Instead he gives even more ground to the very select few through actions like extending the Bush tax cuts for the rich while appointing people like Alan Simpson to decide the fate of the rest of us. Continuing wars that are clearly being waged only to protect corporate interests worldwide while continuing to suppress the rights we were once guaranteed in the Constitution. Refusing to implement true health care reform and instead once again compromising with people whose sole purpose is to destroy the entitlements that are the heart of this nation's social contract with workers, women, children, the poor, or anyone other than the select few who are richer than at any time in this nation's history yet can only ask for and continue to get MORE while the rest of us face a future so bleak it could serve as the plot from some dystopian novel.

I'm not buying the TCK thing. It's just another excuse to cover the fact that the rich are getting richer while the middle class and poor are told to forget about education, health care, jobs, retirement, and any and every other benefit of a supposedly modern industrial society.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. "right and wrong"
So, uhm, that would be missing the whole point.

TCK would be another way of saying "right and wrong" is the wrong way to approach most issues. It's a way of pointing out that widely experienced people tend to abandon simplistic binary thinking, and a resulting "us vs. them" mentality. A rich vs. poor mentality. A war vs. peace mentality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. "Simple binary thinking"
Like extending tax breaks for billionaires and handing them bailouts while the people who lost their homes due to those billionaires' destroying the economy are put out in the street?

Or doubling down on wars that should have never been fought?

Or continuing and actually increasing the destruction of the Bill of Rights?

Or appointing people like Alan Simpson to destroy Social Security, Medicare, and every other program that helps people other than the rich?

That "simple binary thinking"?

Good GOD this nation has lost its soul it and its mind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Exactly.
Like thinking that a temporary bargaining chip is always a bad thing. Or keeping people in jobs is bad if those jobs are for "corporations".

Or that immediate withdrawals from battlefields is even possible.

Or that increasing accountability for surveillance is "destruction".

Or that bipartisan political appointments to temporary brainstorming committees will "destroy" Social Security, Medicare (etc.)

Yes, that kind of thinking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Or thinking that right and wrong are just
"Quaint and obsolete" like the Geneva Conventions?

What "temporary" bargaining chip are you referring to? Why can't we at least BEGIN to withdraw troops from IRAQ? How the hell can anyone refer to illegal domestic spying, no-knock and sneak and peek warrants, shredding the Fourth Amendment, and an ever increasing police state as "increasing accountability"? How can anyone call bipartisanship that continues to be used by the other side to pull the entire nation further toward the edge of a cliff overlooking a bottomless pit be referred to as "temporary brainstorming"?

That kind of thinking is why I repeat; this nation has lost its soul and its mind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-19-11 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Right and wrong have many different judges.
Including the many ways the Geneva Conventions are honored, and ignored.

"What "temporary" bargaining chip are you referring to?"

The temporary bargaining chip is the tax cuts for top brackets. Everytime the GOP wants to extend it another two years, they'll have to give something in return for it.

"Why can't we at least BEGIN to withdraw troops from IRAQ?"

We already did. We now have more troops in Germany than we have in Iraq.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/24/us-troop-level...

" How the hell can anyone refer to illegal domestic spying,"
It's not magically illegal because of an opinion. There are laws to be followed, and congress passed laws making things legal that you may not like. That doesn't make them illegal.

"no-knock and sneak and peek warrants,"
Again, legal. Many supreme court decisions have found so.

"shredding the Fourth Amendment,"
I suggest you read it again. Here it is, with highlighting:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

That's it. Nothing that requires a person to be notified they're being searched. Nothing about allowing people to contest a search. Also note that reasonable searches are implied by the text itself.

" and an ever increasing police state as "increasing accountability"?"

NSL's are no longer bound by gag orders, and tapping of new electronic communications are clarified as requiring judicial review, for two examples.

"How can anyone call bipartisanship that continues to be used by the other side to pull the entire nation further toward the edge of a cliff overlooking a bottomless pit be referred to as "temporary brainstorming"? "

Much of the hue and cry over SS and Medicare being destroyed came out of a panel whose ideas were just that: ideas. The ideas were not adopted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-19-11 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Judges like Robert, Alito, Scalia, Thomas?
Edited on Thu May-19-11 05:12 AM by nonperson
Right and wrong aren't judged they are empirical.

"The temporary bargaining chip is the tax cuts for top brackets. Everytime the GOP wants to extend it another two years, they'll have to give something in return for it."


It's been ten years. What has the middle class and poor gotten in return for the billions in tax cuts the rich received, for the increase in debt. NOTHING.

"We already did. We now have more troops in Germany than we have in Iraq."

One soldier in a nation attacked illegally and unprovoked is too many.

"It's not magically illegal because of an opinion. There are laws to be followed, and congress passed laws making things legal that you may not like. That doesn't make them illegal."
"Again, legal. Many supreme court decisions have found so."
""shredding the Fourth Amendment,"
" and an ever increasing police state as "increasing accountability"?"
"Again, legal. Many supreme court decisions have found so."

I don't need to read any of the garbage excuses or illegal "legal" opinions. THE RIGHTS WE ARE ALL GUARANTEED IN THE CONSTITUTION AREN'T "MAGICAL". THE RIGHTS WE ARE ALL GUARANTEED UNDER THE CONSTITUTION RENDER ALL THOSE LAWS AND ALL YOUR RIDICULOUS EXCUSES ILLEGAL. ALL of your excuses sound like something straight out of the Bush White House.

Much of the hue and cry over SS and Medicare being destroyed came out of a panel whose ideas were just that: ideas. The ideas were not adopted.

Those "IDEAS" were accepted and were intended to be implemented and are still being discussed as possibilities for implementation today.

When rich people get extended tax breaks on the backs of everyone else, when guaranteed rights are denied, when nations are invaded with no cause, based on LIES, there are no excuses. This is exactly what I mean. RIGHT AND WRONG mean nothing any more in this nation and for that we are paying an increasingly heavy price. Making excuses instead of demanding those wrongs are righted isn't compromise or bipartisanship or extra-dimensional chess, it's pure capitulation to a money and power elite who are the true rulers. Don't make excuses for this ridiculous bullshit. Just be honest and change the wording in the Declaration of Independence from "We the People" to "we the rich" and be done with it.

Ever read Animal Farm? Remember what happened to the Seven Commandments? They were shredded too and reduced to one.

"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"
- George Orwell, Animal Farm, Ch. 10

Same as is happening to our "Constitution". There is no excuse you or anyone else can make for any of this. TCK = just another bullshit excuse. All of this justification for doing wrong instead of right = just more bullshit excuses.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-19-11 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. "Right and wrong aren't judged they are empirical."
Like I said, binary thinking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-19-11 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. "Like I said, binary thinking."
All a bunch of TPK bullshit, legal mumbo-jumbo worthy of John Yoo, and an entire group of people who were once known for caring about working people and the poor doing intellectual calisthenics to mask the fact that they can no longer tell the difference between or simply no longer give a shit about right and wrong.

The once great USA has become an insane zombie nation, a soulless insane walking dead.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-11 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. So get the shotguns, them relativist folk are around.
You want zombie walking dead? Try folks still stuck in the 20th century, where they're still deciding "good" and "evil".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-11 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Now you're talking
Edited on Fri May-20-11 07:38 AM by nonperson
I'll gladly stay "stuck" in the 20th century rather than the oligarch cluster fuck you're making excuses for today.

Oh, I know, while the middle class and poor are being destroyed in this brain dead nation you enlightened TCK'ers are playing multi-dimensional chess.

You don't even recognize the real-life effects your mind games are having on people. You excuse the worst policy decisions by claiming a goal of bipartisanship while you piss away everything a true democratic society should stand for, for the sake of billionaires and their lying political hacks.

Yeah, we're stuck in the past. Dinosaurs the mass extinction missed and now we're just getting in the way of the new world order led by the enlightened TCK pompous, elitist assholes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-11 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
31. Obama is not a pragmatist.
He likes to disguise his corporatist, neo-liberal agenda as ideology-free pragmatism and centrism, but in reality, most of the policies this supposed ideological agnosticism has produced are deeply unpopular and not at all practical or moderate. In fact, some of these policies are creating profound global economic instability and stirring up popular revolt.

When you are bailing out the FIRE sector to the point of endangering sovereign governments and quite literally lighting young populations on fire, that isn't rule by moderation. I think he does view the world in a pretty simplistic way: What's good for the financial elites is what's good. This is obviously not a viewpoint shared by most of the Democratic base, thus the facade of pragmatism and forced concessions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-11 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #31
52. In the entire world, only a small percentage of US Progressives agree with you
Virtually the entire rest of the world sees him as a pragmatist. That doesnt automatically make us right and you wrong, but it ought to give you pause.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-19-11 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
39. Yet another TCK
This is a great analysis of what 'our' world is like.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-19-11 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
42. TCK =
Another group of regular everyday assholes looking for a reason to feel superior and for one more excuse in an already far too long list of excuses.

Oh, please, save us TCK people. Please, save the world. You are our only hope.


LOLOL

:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell-A Liberal Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-11 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. nonperson =
special.

Ok? Feel better now?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-11 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. No, I don't feel better now
You're missing the point. I don't seek what you have and I want no part of it.

That tendency in human nature, the need to feel "special" as a person or a family or "exceptional" as a nation is the basis for the majority of the world's problems. Declaring oneself, family, or nation special or exception is not just vanity. Exalting ourselves like Raskolnikov, declaring our nation exceptional are excuses to use any means to accomplish the goals we alone are able to define because we are more worthy or smarter or more knowledgeable than those beneath us.

I don't want to be special. I can't declare myself special. This isn't for us to judge. Our actions make us special. Consider the actions our politicians are engaged in. The policies we are being told must be implemented because we can no longer afford a decent society, living wages, good housing, health care, retirement.

TCK is just the latest excuse. The TCK can divine what we beneath them can't hope to fathom. While the TCK can't fathom what their actions, or more accurately lack of action, has done. TCK is an excuse to define and ignore right and wrong as "simple binary thinking" of people who just can't grasp new concepts that are in reality nothing of the sort. They're the same old concepts used for the same old reasons the working class has been fighting to overcome for generations.

TCK's are the new Philomaths.

He spoke of his birth in the working class, and of the sordidness
and wretchedness of his environment, where flesh and spirit were
alike starved and tormented. He described his ambitions and ideals, and
his conception of the paradise wherein lived the people of the upper
classes. As he said:

"Up above me, I knew, were unselfishnesses of the spirit, clean and
noble thinking, keen intellectual living. I knew all this because I read
'Seaside Library' novels, in which, with the exception of the villains
and adventuresses, all men and women thought beautiful thoughts,
spoke a beautiful tongue, and performed glorious deeds. In short, as I
accepted the rising of the sun, I accepted that up above me was all that
was fine and noble and gracious, all that gave decency and dignity to
life, all that made life worth living and that remunerated one for his travail
and misery."

Ernest went on to his rise in society, till at last he came in touch with
members of the upper classes, and rubbed shoulders with the men who
sat in the high places. Then came his disillusionment, and this disillusionment
he described in terms that did not flatter his audience. He was
surprised at the commonness of the clay. Life proved not to be fine and
gracious. He was appalled by the selfishness he encountered, and what
had surprised him even more than that was the absence of intellectual
life. Fresh from his revolutionists, he was shocked by the intellectual stupidity
of the master class. And then, in spite of their magnificent
churches and well-paid preachers, he had found the masters, men and
women, grossly material. It was true that they prattled sweet little ideals
and dear little moralities, but in spite of their prattle the dominant key of
the life they lived was materialistic. And they were without real morality
for instance, that which Christ had preached but which was no
longer preached.

"I met men," he said, "who invoked the name of the Prince of Peace in
their diatribes against war, and who put rifles in the hands of Pinkertons
with which to shoot down strikers in their own factories. I met men incoherent
with indignation at the brutality of prize-fighting, and who, at
the same time, were parties to the adulteration of food that killed each
year more babes than even red-handed Herod had killed.

"This delicate, aristocratic-featured gentleman was a dummy director
and a tool of corporations that secretly robbed widows and orphans.
This gentleman, who collected fine editions and was a patron of literature,
paid blackmail to a heavy-jowled, black- browed boss of a municipal
machine. This editor, who published patent medicine advertisements,
called me a scoundrelly demagogue because I dared him to print in his
paper the truth about patent medicines. This man, talking soberly and
earnestly about the beauties of idealism and the goodness of God, had
just betrayed his comrades in a business deal. This man, a pillar of the
church and heavy contributor to foreign missions, worked his shop girls
ten hours a day on a starvation wage and thereby directly encouraged
prostitution. This man, who endowed chairs in universities and erected
magnificent chapels, perjured himself in courts of law over dollars and
cents. This railroad magnate broke his word as a citizen, as a gentleman,
and as a Christian, when he granted a secret rebate, and he granted
many secret rebates. This senator was the tool and the slave, the little
puppet, of a brutal uneducated machine boss; 45 so was this governor
and this supreme court judge; and all three rode on railroad passes; and,
also, this sleek capitalist owned the machine, the machine boss, and the
railroads that issued the passes.

"And so it was, instead of in paradise, that I found myself in the arid
desert of commercialism. I found nothing but stupidity, except for business.
I found none clean, noble, and alive, though I found many who
were alivewith rottenness. What I did find was monstrous selfishness
and heartlessness, and a gross, gluttonous, practised, and practical
materialism."


With thanks to the DU'er who previously posted an excerpt from Jack London's "The Iron Heel" in another thread, which sent me searching for a copy.

Download it free here:
http://m.feedbooks.com/book/2381
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell-A Liberal Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. (sigh)....nt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-11 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Hey, don't forget "boomers", "hippies", "yuppies", "X-ers", "millennials"...
..."liberals", "progressives", "lefties", and any other labels that get applied to people as a group.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-11 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Your label is self-applied
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-11 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
49. I posted this thread because I thought it was interesting and provided some insight into the
President.

I had no idea that I should somehow take it as some kind of insult to me because I'm NOT a TCK.

Some of the reactions seem a bit quick to take offense in some way from the idea that being raised in certain circumstances may help build specific skills. That seems perfectly logical and doesn't seem like it should be taken as a slam on people who had a different youth.

Sometimes, it's not all about you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-11 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
51. just as bogus as Dinesh D'Souza
All these analyses pretend there's some mystery about Obama that needs to be explained, and the OP and D'Souza choose to go to his "exotic" background to explain this non-existent mysterious behavior.

But in fact there is nothing "alien" about the way Obama is governing. He's a conventional American politician, and if we're going to analyze him we should do it just like we would a normal white politician.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-11 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
53. What wonderful babble to set up amoral calculation as advanced and enlightened.
The loyalist camp, I keep noticing, loves them some cons. Sullivan and Krautheimer are daily favorites of the "attack the messenger/ignore the message brigade".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Aug 20th 2014, 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion: Presidency Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC