Obama saved the lives of those Navy SEALS.

[Raven]

No doubt about it. His insistence on having backup air support saved them. What he feared might go wrong did and his caution and good judgment made all the difference. This plain fact needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

[damntexdem]

1. But if Dubya hadn't waterboarded the chopper pilots, they never would have flown backup.

;-)

[Ian David]

2. Yes, he did...

<snip>

The president made his concerns known in a briefing about 10 days before the assault on the bin Laden compound. According to senior aides, Obama felt that the special operations COA, or course of action, was too risky. Under the COA at that time, only two helicopters would enter Pakistani airspace, leaving little backup if something went wrong. “I don’t want you to plan for an option that doesn’t allow you to fight your way out,” the President told operational planners at the meeting, according to the notes of one participant.

So the plan was revised. Ultimately, four helicopters flew into Pakistani airspace, including two refueling helicopters that carried additional personnel. In the end, the extra forces didn’t need to fight their way out of the compound, but a backup helicopter did play a key role in the operation. One of the two primary assault helicopters, an HH-60 Pave Hawk lost its lift, landed hard and had to be destroyed. The backup landed to lift its passengers to safety. “The President created the ‘fight your way out’ option,” explained an administration official.

More:
http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/03/obama-pushed-for-fight-your-way-out-option-in-bin-laden-raid/

[jdlh8894]

6. OK????

It's gone from 2 to 4 plus refueling choppers! I give up!!!!

[athena]

21. It's four *including* the refueling helicopters.

It sounds like two helicopters landed. One had technical trouble and was destroyed. One of the two backups then took its place.

[jdlh8894]

25. How do you refuel a chopper from another one? GFL

Just a question from an OLD flyguy!

[Recursion]

27. With a long hose, a long hook, and a non-risk-averse E-4

I've seen it with Sea Knights. A comment at the time: "In the next few seconds, if an ESD doesn't reduce both birds to falling fireballs..."

[jdlh8894]

28. Best laugh I've had today!! Thanks!

[Recursion]

29. There's a very funny description of it in a Tom Clancy book

though I forget which one. It ends with the pilot of the receiving helicopter saying, "Commissioned officers are supposed to be too smart to do what we just did."

[jdlh8894]

32. My reply would have been

May not be all that smart - but now get the HELL out of my way!

[damonm]

47. Something like this...

...only more sophisticated, I should guess, as this is an OLD photo:

[backscatter712]

71. Here's how they do it today.

http://youtu.be/k0dEv3rip6o

Not too different from how they refuel fixed-wing aircraft in mid-air.

[damonm]

76. Thanks, but...

the question was helo-to-helo midair refueling. I know it CAN be done, just couldn't find any more recent photos.

[pnwmom]

53. Don't give up before you read this.

http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/03/obama-pushed-for-f... /

A senior U.S. military official Monday credited President Obama for having a prominent role in pushing and shaping the plan to get Osama bin Laden. “In the final weeks and really months of this, his personal interest and direction and attention pushed the case to a new level that enabled real action,” the official told reporters. “And I think that role is quite important.”

On Tuesday, White House officials began to offer more details on exactly how Obama had shaped the final assault plan. In particular, the President, they said, urged the Pentagon to revisit the number of helicopters it planned to bring into Pakistani airspace on the mission. One of those extra helicopters later played a role in the mission.

The president made his concerns known in a briefing about 10 days before the assault on the bin Laden compound. According to senior aides, Obama felt that the special operations COA, or course of action, was too risky. Under the COA at that time, only two helicopters would enter Pakistani airspace, leaving little backup if something went wrong. “I don’t want you to plan for an option that doesn’t allow you to fight your way out,” the President told operational planners at the meeting, according to the notes of one participant.

So the plan was revised. Ultimately, four helicopters flew into Pakistani airspace, including two refueling helicopters that carried additional personnel. In the end, the extra forces didn’t need to fight their way out of the compound, but a backup helicopter did play a key role in the operation. One of the two primary assault helicopters, an HH-60 Pave Hawk lost its lift, landed hard and had to be destroyed. The backup landed to lift its passengers to safety. “The President created the ‘fight your way out’ option,” explained an administration official.

[jdlh8894]

10. “The President created the ‘fight your way out’ option,”

Christ on a trailer hitch - The man has NO military background.

[kestrel91316]

52. Doesn't mean he can't THINK. Sheesh.

[badgerpup]

68. Guy must have read some Richard Marcinko...

...aka "Demo Dickie".

I have absolutely no military experience, and thanks to these novels, I've learned to plan for Mr. Murphy attending the party and to have plans 'B' through whatever it takes to circumvent him if he does.

I get laughed at as a worrywart...until Mr. Murphy shows up and whaddaya know, I'm ready for the bastid...

Shit's gonna happen...especially when you need it NOT to. Plan for it beforehand.

[cliffordu]

55. Really? And this is a problem, how????

[boppers]

64. Which man?

The reporter who wrote that phrase?
The president who realized that the "we're badass, we don't need any backup plans" military SF attitude was totally full of shit?

As I understand it, they hit the place with 67 operators, 4 copters, and the usual Hercules SF gunship (with 50 cal plus howitzer) (in case shit got really bad)... to take on what turned out to be 6-10 people, of which only a few were adults.

They had no inside intel, they didn't know if the first wave would hit a wall of men, mines, whatever, and if local forces would mount a counter-assault.

[orangeapple]

74. I doubt it

You don't invade somebody's airspace secretly with an AC-130. It's a sitting duck and a big radar target.

Unless the administration is completely lying about telling the Pakis (plausible, since they prefer being able to deny involvement for domestic political purposes).

I have read that we had drones on standby if the guys on the ground needed CAS.

If the second helos were sent for refueling it was done on the ground somewhere remote, as in Desert One.

The Blackhawks are more nimble than the Chinooks, and we apparently used a stealth version that might have even been quieter (to provide less alert time to the targets). After the guys get dumped all the helos can provide fire support, and the Chinooks have an enormous lift capacity.

[former9thward]

3. Thee Navy Seals saved their own lives.

They did not need help from Obama. How ridiculous.

[drm604]

4. The backup resources he insisted on may very well have saved their lives.

Those resources made it possible for them to save their own lives. I don't understand what's ridiculous about that.

[former9thward]

8. Do you think there were no military people that suggested that?

Do you think he was the only person in the room concerned about safety for the participants and no one else had a clue? Obama made some decisive and good overall decisions about this mission but to suggest a man with no military experience micromanaged this mission is beyond absurd.

[Raven]

11. I'm sure Obama was not the only person concerned but, in the end,

he is the CIC and he supported it and apparently insisted on it. Why would you deny him the credit?

[former9thward]

19. I gave him credit. Did you even read my post?

[Raven]

22. You said something like "They did not need help from Obama, they

saved their own lives, how rediculous." Sorry if I misunderstood.

[former9thward]

24. My quote from the post you were replying to was:

"Obama made some decisive and good overall decisions about this mission" I totally believe that. I also believe in teamwork. Especially at that level.

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. He had input. Important input.

One thing military people always criticize civilian leaders is that the leaders send them into war without appropriate equipment and resources to succeed. I think Obama proved, he pays attention.

[stockholmer]

57. Is he paying attention to the record number of deaths in Afghanistan?

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/851636-record-number-of-soldiers-and-civilians-killed-in-afghanistan-in-2010

[dionysus]

77. do try not to grind your teeth so.

[drm604]

15. Please don't put words in my mouth.

You know very well that I said none of those things. Instead of engaging in debate you're setting up and attacking a straw man. I really dislike these kinds of cheap rhetorical tricks, but I guess it's all you've got.

[vaberella]

17. A multitude of people were concerned. But it was Obama's plan and he had the back up.

Brennan said it and Panetta backed it up.

[intaglio]

18. Do you have the ability to read?

Let's print it large, perhaps that will help you to comprehend.

The president made his concerns known in a briefing about 10 days before the assault /snip... Obama felt that the special operations COA, or course of action, was too risky. Under the COA at that time, only two helicopters would enter Pakistani airspace,/snip ... “I don’t want you to plan for an option that doesn’t allow you to fight your way out,” the President told operational planners at the meeting, according to the notes of one participant.

The President told the military plan for unforseen circumstances. If he had not told the planners to plan for problems then some of the SEAL team would have had to be left behind.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[intaglio]

26. and you are misreading it n/t

[dbmk]

30. Always?

In a mission like that, they most certainly are cutting some corners tight to keep the footprint of the mission as small as possible.
They might very well be aware of the risks and consequences of those risks. That does not mean they plan for them with a "keep everyone alive at all costs" scenario. That would be impossible for such a mission.

It is very reasonable to believe that Obama insisted on less risk for the troops than the military had worked with in all their scenarios. But I would agree that the conclusion/story probably assigns a bit more responsibility to Obama for that part than it warrants. Thats politics.

But held up against all those who would like to diminish his involvement, I find it acceptable. :)

As Wolfowitz said: He would have gotten all the blame had it gone wrong. Likewise he should get a lot of the praise when it goes right. Whether he was involved in the planning or not, he took responsibility for it.

[former9thward]

36. Agree with most of your post and 100% of your last sentence.

[Auntie Bush]

46. Yup, the buck stopped with Obama!

[Phx_Dem]

33. The guy who described the briefing on TV said the President asked

"what happens if one chopper fails?" They then revised the plan to provide an addition chopper.

[former9thward]

35. They had many copters in the area.

Some to take out Pakistani choppers if they got involved and some for technical support. People seem to read what they want.

[pnwmom]

50. The military presented him with a plan for only 2 helicopters.

It was his idea to add the two back-up helicopters, and the military has publicly credited him with that. Strange that you won't.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. That's correct. Obama made sure they had the resources to do their jobs, and come

out alive.

I'm guessing that he saw more than a few Rambo movies.

[vaberella]

16. False. The back up plane was set up by Obama. Even the head military guy said that.

You're clowning right about now.

[pasto76]

39. really? you must be daft

as a combat vet, Ive been put in the frying pan with no backup. Heh, actually on the large scale we ALL were - seeing as how Bush and Co invaded iraq "on the cheap". But on a squad level as well, for the same reason - "I dont want to send that much manpower"

Some other times, when the op was planned by a competent person, we had plans P A C E - Primary, Alternate, Contingency, Emergency. Go figure, when we had PACE, everything went smoothly cause we were a bit more relaxed.

I promise you the SEALS were happy with backup. They would have gone it alone if they had been ordered, but what kind of a douchebag doesnt plan for problems?

[pnwmom]

49. You are uninformed. The Pentagon's plan wouldn't have protected

the SEALS in the case of a downed helicopter. Obama's did. He was the one who insisted on the back-up helicopters, and one of them turned out to be critical to the mission.


http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/03/obama-pushed-for-fight-your-way-out-option-in-bin-laden-raid/

A senior U.S. military official Monday credited President Obama for having a prominent role in pushing and shaping the plan to get Osama bin Laden. “In the final weeks and really months of this, his personal interest and direction and attention pushed the case to a new level that enabled real action,” the official told reporters. “And I think that role is quite important.”

On Tuesday, White House officials began to offer more details on exactly how Obama had shaped the final assault plan. In particular, the President, they said, urged the Pentagon to revisit the number of helicopters it planned to bring into Pakistani airspace on the mission. One of those extra helicopters later played a role in the mission.

The president made his concerns known in a briefing about 10 days before the assault on the bin Laden compound. According to senior aides, Obama felt that the special operations COA, or course of action, was too risky. Under the COA at that time, only two helicopters would enter Pakistani airspace, leaving little backup if something went wrong. “I don’t want you to plan for an option that doesn’t allow you to fight your way out,” the President told operational planners at the meeting, according to the notes of one participant.

So the plan was revised. Ultimately, four helicopters flew into Pakistani airspace, including two refueling helicopters that carried additional personnel. In the end, the extra forces didn’t need to fight their way out of the compound, but a backup helicopter did play a key role in the operation. One of the two primary assault helicopters, an HH-60 Pave Hawk lost its lift, landed hard and had to be destroyed. The backup landed to lift its passengers to safety. “The President created the ‘fight your way out’ option,” explained an administration official.

[stockholmer]

56. +1000000

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. Where's the link that he made that decision?

[Ian David]

7. Here

http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/03/obama-pushed-for-fight-your-way-out-option-in-bin-laden-raid

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. Gave me goosebumps. Thanks.

Clip of quote here:

he president made his concerns known in a briefing about 10 days before the assault on the bin Laden compound. According to senior aides, Obama felt that the special operations COA, or course of action, was too risky. Under the COA at that time, only two helicopters would enter Pakistani airspace, leaving little backup if something went wrong. “I don’t want you to plan for an option that doesn’t allow you to fight your way out,” the President told operational planners at the meeting, according to the notes of one participant.

So the plan was revised. Ultimately, four helicopters flew into Pakistani airspace, including two refueling helicopters that carried additional personnel. In the end, the extra forces didn’t need to fight their way out of the compound, but a backup helicopter did play a key role in the operation. One of the two primary assault helicopters, an HH-60 Pave Hawk lost its lift, landed hard and had to be destroyed. The backup landed to lift its passengers to safety. “The President created the ‘fight your way out’ option,” explained an administration official.

Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/03/obama-pushed-for-fight-your-way-out-option-in-bin-laden-raid/#ixzz1LP9ot6Hr

[Tarheel_Dem]

9. Raven, I tried to rec, but the number didn't change. I guess not everyone agrees....

:kick:

[cherokeeprogressive]

23. BREAKING: President Obama credited with inventing new procedure...

After much debate, TPTB have decided to call this stunning new procedure "Contingency Planning".

Military leaders were aghast that no one had suggested this to them before, and went into damage control mode immediately.

"How could we have ever come up with a plan for a spare helicopter if someone hadn't told us to?" said one low-level anonymous person in a uniform.

[dbmk]

31. One thing is knowing about contingency planning

Its another thing how much contingency you would normally plan for in a given scenario. Obama might or might not have influenced the level of contingency in this case. Sounds reasonable to me that he might have insisted on more than the military would normally plan with in this case.

[vaberella]

59. There's no "might" about it. He did do it. That is the one thing every person stayed consistent on.

n/t

[Ter]

34. Pretty sure SEAL Team 6 can handle themselves

n/t

[cliffordu]

40. Yeah, but they can't fix a dead helo in the field.......

Better an extra machine and a second team in case the world goes to shit and they have to fight their way out.

Think Blackhawk down.

[Fire1]

37. His is the voice of reason. No doubt about it. n/t

[DinahMoeHum]

38. The "Jimmy Carter Syndrome" died an unlamented death

with this successful mission. Kudos to the President for his gutsy calls here.

Obama has freed the Democrats from this particular bogeyman. Now, the onus is on Bush/Cheney and the GOP for their failure to get OBL for 7 long hard years and getting us into an unnecessary, wasteful war in Iraq.

I said several times during that painful period: get a Democrat back in the White House, and OBL's head would be on a spike within 2 years.
(It turned out to be 2 years, 3 months. Close enough!)

:kick::kick::kick:

[Aviation Pro]

41. The President signed off on the operation....

...the military planned and executed the operation. Please don't insinuate that the President had anything to do with the tactics or logistics of the raid.

[Melinda]

42. This is why a link in an OP is always best OR assertions +facts = good stuff. Text + link:

A senior U.S. military official Monday credited President Obama for having a prominent role in pushing and shaping the plan to get Osama bin Laden. “In the final weeks and really months of this, his personal interest and direction and attention pushed the case to a new level that enabled real action,” the official told reporters. “And I think that role is quite important.”

On Tuesday, White House officials began to offer more details on exactly how Obama had shaped the final assault plan. In particular, the President, they said, urged the Pentagon to revisit the number of helicopters it planned to bring into Pakistani airspace on the mission. One of those extra helicopters later played a role in the mission.



Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/03/obama-pushed-for-fight-your-way-out-option-in-bin-laden-raid/#ixzz1LQfTj0Mc

[JBoy]

44. Agreed. I give him credit for approving the right plan, not for developing it.

[vaberella]

60. No they didn't. Not the full plan.

They gave 4 plans. All were rejected and then Obama suggested using Seal Team 6. This is the one thing all speakers were consistent on. Then when the plan was revamped with Obama's suggestion---then and only then did they give a practice run and then Obama said was there a back up plane. They didn't have one in the initial plan. Then Obama pushed for that and then gave the go ahead. This is the consistent statement by all involved. So I don't know where you're getting your facts from.

[Taverner]

43. Y.E.S.

I was just thinking that earlier today

[Marnie]

45. And the facts upon which you base your claim are

totally missing.

You couldn't include a link, a reference, a citation, a blog a channel?

[vaberella]

61. You can check on anything Carney, Panetta or Brennan had said.

Mainly Brennan when he was on Morning Joe or anywhere.

[treestar]

48. Exactly, being brave does not mean being reckless

[bowens43]

51. Complete nonsense.

If you think that Obama was involved in the planning, you're not thinking clearly.

[nonperson]

67. You obviously haven't see this

http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/03/obama-pushed-for-fight-your-way-out-option-in-bin-laden-raid/

Check out the link. Are you thinking clearly now?

Seal Team 6 should speak up and PUBLICLY THANK THEIR COMMANDER IN CHIEF.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mwrguy]

58. If they were as smart as Obama they wouldn't be in the military.

End of story.

[vaberella]

62. !

:rofl: Ultimate PWNAGE! :kick:

[Mimosa]

63. That's offensive and the CiC would be the first to say so. n/t

[boppers]

65. It is funny though.

There's a long tradition of sending US soldiers in with too little, too late, forcing them to improvise while their death is on the line.

That doesn't mean the warriors are any less heroic, but it does make their higher-ups look mighty stupid.

[Beacool]

80. I really hope that you didn't type that with a straight face.

:eyes:

[nonperson]

66. NOT hearing enough about this in the media

I was listening to NPR's Talk of the Nation for a few minutes in the car yesterday. Some Republican who was an adviser in the GHW Bush White House and a Democrat. Callers talking smack about President Obama taking TOO MUCH credit for the operation. The Democrat didn't even MENTION President Obama's "FIGHT YOUR WAY OUT" option THE OPTION HE CREATED THAT LITERALLY SAVED THOSE NAVY SEAL'S LIVES!

I tried to call in but couldn't get through.

We DO need to shout this from the rooftops.

George W. Bush not only couldn't get the job done, he completely lost interest. Now President Obama gets the job done and the Republicans are trying their best to minimize what they KNOW is an outstanding achievement.

[Pirate Smile]

70. I'm not sure why this isn't getting more play. If it was a Republican President, it would be

everywhere.

I've seen it mentioned in MODO's NYT column:

But now the president has shown he can lead straight-on and that, unlike Jimmy Carter, he knows how to order up that all-important backup helicopter

and

E.J. Dionne's column:

Obama is hard to understand because he is many things and not just one thing. He has now proved that he can be bold at an operational level, even as he remains cautious at a philosophical level. His proclivity to gather facts and weigh alternatives does not lead automatically, in the venerable phrase, to the paralysis of analysis. It can also end in daring action tempered by prudence -- for example, making sure that additional helicopters were available to our Navy SEALs.


but otherwise nada.

It is one of the big differences between Democrats and Republicans.

Bush ignored the warnings of Richard Clark and other Clinton Terrorism experts who warned the incoming Bush Administration that OBL and AQ needed to be focused on. Bush blew off the waring in the PDB in August ("you covered your ass"). The Bush Administration blew it at Tora Bora & let OBL get away. The Bush Administration shifted focus off of OBL & AQ by invading Iraq. The Bush Administration closed the OBL search unit in the CIA.

YET - they have the nerve to say they are not getting enough credit AND it is being parroted by the media & even some Dems (just by sticking the Bush Administration in with the Obama Administration when they want to give Obama, the Military and the Intelligence Community credit).


It.is.AMAZING.... and Disgusting.

[proud patriot]

69. I've mentioned that to a few republicans

it shames them instantly

[Maineman]

72. Why are some earlier comments sarcastic toward the president?

Claiming that the president saved the SEALS' lives might be worded so that it sounds like a bit of a stretch. He was not on the ground. The SEALS executed, and very well. But, it seems pretty clear that the president was wise and prudent and smart in what he asked for and what he approved. Give the guy a break, for God's sake. He gets enough crap from the thugs on the right.

[dotymed]

73. I know I will get "flamed" for this.

The whole story is reminiscent of Jessica Lynch, the NFL star (sorry his name escapes me), and so much "we're #1 propaganda."

I do not think that we are being told the truth, again.
It is my opinion. I have become jaded over the decades and so many details of this incident have changed repeatedly. So many details make absolutely no sense.

To me, Michael Moore's scenario makes much more sense. Unfortunately, "They" think Americans can not handle the truth. I hate to imagine that President Obama would go along with blatant propaganda. Unfortunately, he has repeated so many of the same "mistakes" that G.W. did. IMO, he has the same "handlers", our version of a Politburo.

[namvet73]

75. Rumsfeld

would have sent in a cub scout with a BB gun and a propeller on his cap to save money.

[Recovered Repug]

78. It's amazing how much more

beleivable "unnamed sources" are when they say the "correct" things.

[Beacool]

79. 158 votes on this?????

Obama deserves much credit for giving the OK on the operation, but full credit goes to those who planned and executed it.

:eyes: