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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:42 AM
Original message
Can someone please tell me why a "certificate of live birth" is not
sufficient to prove that Obama was born in the U.S.? My understanding is that it is fine for getting a passport and it would seem to me that that is a pretty high bar. So what's the deal about the certificate? I have seen it shown on TV, raised seal and all. It says right on it that it is evidence of citizenship.

I don't get it... :shrug:
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. As the 2012 Elections near...
I'm growing convinced that Trump is a covert Democratic operative.

Oh, he'll run and make a modest showing in the Republican primaries, but he will lose. And then he will run as a third-party, splitting the right-wing vote come the general election.

We just have to not look this gift horse in the mouth.
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madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. I had written something like that on DU
no response. But, I thought this guy can't be for real in view of his past ideology. Also donating money to Obama's 2008 run. The birthers were already out there.

If he's doing this to help the Democrats I don't believe he was solicited. I think he's acting on his own. It's the right thing to do and he loves attention ;)
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. Ha! You may be right. That would be so delicious if true.
Trump would have trumped us all!
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spinbaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
45. I think you're onto something
So far he's mostly succeeded in making the right look even wackier.
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madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. They're insane. Don't give it another thought.
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 07:52 AM by madmax
Even Bachmann has given up on that bullshit. No worries about Trump changing anyones mind.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. I saw that! She seemed to say "well, okay, then" when shown the certificate.
I wonder, though, if she'll fall back into fantasy when she is with "her own kind"...
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. I'd say bank on it.
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Mister Ed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. Only sufficient if you're white
It's right there in the Constitution somewhere.

:sarcasm:
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Proud Liberal Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
4. NOTHING will be sufficient to cure the "birther madness"
that has affected those people. They will be chasing their tails over this until President Obama is out of the WH, unfortunately. :eyes:
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
6. A white woman had a child with an African man in a "far off land".
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 08:09 AM by JoePhilly
Sure, that land was Hawaii, but that doesn't matter.

That's really all their is to it. They hate the idea that a white woman had a child with an African man. And the fact that the child grew up and became President makes them totally and completely insane.

He is illegitimate.

This is the position from which they begin. And there is no changing it.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Well, okay...I just thought they had some "fact" (lame as it may be)
that could prove that the certificate wasn't good enough...but I guess you're right, they've been driven insane by their own racism. Kinda scary that there are people so infected with race hatred that they believe a fantasy, even in the face of hard evidence to the contrary...
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. I don't think any fact would change their minds ....
Consider this ... let's say you have your original birth certificate. I have mine.

The reason I have mine is that about 10 years ago my mother retired and we moved her to a new home. She's lived in the old home for 50 years.

She had tons of junk in boxes. Most of it we threw out. In the bottom of one of the boxes, my original birth certificate. We found it by accident.

For all of my life, I've used a set of certified copies that I ordered. I've used them for passports, driver's licenses, whatever.

In what world would it make sense for me to have to show that original. What if we threw it out? What if there was a fire?

The notion that I (or you, or anyone else) would be holding the only proof that I am (you, they are) an American citizen, born here, is silly.

The STATE maintains the official records. The logic of this is inescapable.

Any individual that can't apply this same logic to themselves, and their own records, is delusional. Or, a racist. A racist who needs to believe that he's illegitimate.
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tledford Donating Member (633 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. Bingo! eom
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
9. The problem is the media who keeps this lie alive. This probably more than anything demonstrates
that real news is a sham in this country, and has been so for quite some time

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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Tweety talks about the birther nonsense constantly, tho!
He's been on this kick for WEEKS! I was out of the country a week, came back last week and found he was STILL talking about it (just as he had been for a week before I left). It was on GMA that Bachman had to admit she was wrong. And it's been hooted at on Morning Joe for a couple of weeks, too. So I don't think the media is doing it so much for anything more than sensational value.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
43. you are right, I have to just shake my head /nt
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Scottybeamer70 Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. I've lived through 12 or 13 presidents........
and I don't ever remember anyone saying a single word about a
birth certificate concerning any of them............until Obama.....
couldn't be because he's half black........nah.......couldn't be!
Such a bunch of racist fools they are! You couldn't correct their
racist attitudes with anything now available in the universe.
They are simply hopeless.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. That is the real reason
But they hide behind some false concerns and false patriotism....I once herd this woman on Cspan that said that the tea party has always been with us...same people as the Klan and the John Birchers with different costumes.
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RichGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. My daughter, who was born in Michigan...lost her birth certificate.
I called the county and asked for a copy. I got a certificate of live birth. She used it for a passport and everything else.

I guess she won't be able to run for president...oh wait...she's white...of course she can!!
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. +1
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
16. Listen, Barack had a passport at age 6.
I did not have one until I was 12. I am about a year older than the President. I traveled out of the country quite a bit with just my Mom, Dad stayed home. Every aspect of every version of the birther myths are absurd to me, based on my experiences in a similar situation. No one gets to show up with an undocumented infant or child and just say 'oh, he's mine'. That is not how it works. Never was.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I have to laugh. I got a passport for myself and my very young children
many years ago. It was a group photo of me and them. My presumption was that they were too young to have their own passports. I don't know if they still do that...
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Me too! (Sort of.)
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 01:09 PM by elleng
For '57 (Sputnik) trip, brother and mother had same p'prt, and I MAY have been on it, too, not sure, but definitely remember Billy on there!

Crying Julie had her own, in '92, customs guy saw her crying photo and saw her crying on arrival at JFK, and said, 'You must be Julie B!'

:hi:
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Hi, Ellen!
How did the Mother of the Bride dress hunt go?
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. HUNT not successful, visit VERY pleasant!
and spent time w Ed's mother; delightful!
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. what's the next dress strategy?
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. You have mail!!!
:hi:
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RichGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
38. If a fake birth certificate is all you need to be a natural born citizen....
...great news for all the illegals...instant amnesty!!
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
17. The birthers that are serious about this claim are clueless
about the Constitution and requirements.
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. I think they're also clueless about
long form birth certs. I think they think that the form needed is the one with the foot prints from the hospital. None of the hospitals my kids were born in even gave those out any longer by the time they were born. They're considered keepsakes.
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4lbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
19. It's interesting that the same birthers have no problem believing in McCain's ability to run for
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 11:04 AM by 4lbs
President, because McCain is 100% certified as being born outside of the USA. McCain was born in Panama.

Even Snopes is unclear on whether he is "natural-born". They state that the term "natural-born" was originally murky in the Constitution, and no Congressional session or US Supreme Court case has ever definitively decided the meaning.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/mccain/citizen.asp


Yet, they'll (the birthers) gladly accept him as President and would have had he won in 2008.

Oh, he's white, a "war hero" (highly debatable), and married to a blond former beauty queen heiress to a major American beer distributor. So, that makes it OK.

They would probably accept a white male born in Canada for President, because after all, that's North AMERICA. "North America" is a state, right?
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prole_for_peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. Because he is black (bi-racial)
All white people are citizens by the color of their skin.

The rest...well they have to PROVE that they belong here.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. My official BC says "Certificate of Live Birth", and that's all I have.
Issued by the state of Kansas.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
23. There is no "deal" just batshit racism and weapons grade stupidity.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
25. Because he's black.
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 01:52 PM by backscatter712
The Tea Klux Klan will never accept that Obama's a citizen, because they've latched onto this nonsense as a way to cope with the fact that they can't call him the n-bomb in public without being called out as the racists they are.
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Travelman Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
26. It's perfectly sufficient.
The critical detail on any of these is (and has been for a very long time) a state seal, usually raised like a notary's stamp, but some states are now going to the little mylar hologram thingies (like the "eagle" on your Visa card). If you have that seal, you're golden with the State Department for a passport. If you don't have that seal (such as the hospital birth certificates with the footie prints and stuff), then you're SOL and you have to go back to the state bureau of vital statistics to get a state-issued proof of birth, which will almost always turn out to be a COLB.


By far, the funniest claim I've seen yet is that a "Certificate of Live Birth" is fine and the State Department will take it, but that they won't take what Obama produced, which says "Certification of Live Birth." LMAO! What a load! All the State Department is interested in is that state seal. If you've got that, you in good shape.



There's simply no amount of proof in the world that will satisfy the birthers. That's the way conspiracy theories work: always erect a situation in which the evidence can be easily dismissed with a back-handed wave and demand some other sort of "proof" that would be an impossible burden on anyone. That's what's been going on here. First there was the demand for a birth certificate (to the best of my knowledge, this has never happened in a Presidential race). Then, when the COLB is produced, immediately declare that it's a fake, that it was photoshopped. Then when someone else looks at the actual piece of paper and sees the ink actually on the page and the state seal raised on the bottom and such, then declare that while that may be an actual document, it's not sufficient to prove citizenship. And on and on and on. There's always a fallback position, no matter how ludicrous as a part of a conspiracy theory. I once pointed out the Hawaii law to a birther, who said "well, Obama can go in there and look at his own birth certificate," based upon his silly and absurdly literal reading of the law. I said "fine, so he does that; If he goes and looks at his own birth certificate, and says that he has, will that satisfy you?" Of course it wouldn't. He said that Obama should copy it, and I pointed out that the law forbids that, and then he said that Obama should take a picture of it, and I told him that not only would that not be legal either, but also he would just claim that the picture was doctored. One of these kooks actually got so backed into a corner one time with me that they were actually demanding, if they ever actually do get to see the actual, original birth certificate on file in Honolulu, that forensic testing be done on the paper to make sure it's not a fake, a plant that was apparently smuggled into the records vault some time before the law was passed in 1977m mandating only COLBs, JUST SO that Obama would have the manufactured proof that he needs to be President forty years later.

:rofl:


Forensic testing! LMAO! Maybe they can hire the guys from CSI: Miami to go over to Honolulu and test that paper.



Birthers are never, ever going to accept reality. They're in denial and they're going to stay that way. Just like JFK assassination conspiracy theorists, just like 9/11 conspiracy theorists, there is simply no amount or quality of evidence that will satisfy them.
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Thumper79 Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
31. Because the reason for birtherism and therefore
contesting Obama's certificate of live birth, still exists and will never fade---racism. These people can cry all they want that they are not racists, but they know outright racism in this day and age is not appropriate.
They doth protest too much. :banghead:
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BlueMTexpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
33. It is sufficient to anyone who knows the law.
The Birthers are bonkers. And the MSM goes right along with the madness.
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wysingm Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
36. Obama was born in Hawaii, but
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 06:56 PM by wysingm
We have people who don't know or not sure if Hawaii is part of the USA.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
37. Psst because that certificate belongs to a black man
Sorry, that's all there is to it. Never has there been such questions about any President of the United States until now.

Now Trump is attacking President's Obama's Harvard Education.....

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
39. Because you are BEING CONNED by MSM! Into discussing RW ISSUES & Not Dem Issues?
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 08:35 PM by KoKo
Do you NOT SEE THIS?
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. SO TRUE!!!
Reminds me of the 'Paula Jones' and 'Monica Lewinsky' scandals during Clinton's presidency.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. OF COURSE I see it! What I can't understand is why they are claiming that
a certificate of live birth is not sufficient. What grounds are there to support this claim? Has anyone offered such grounds?

I certainly agree with you that this is a dodge. They really do NOT want to discuss any of the real issues. But I just wanted to know if they have any, even the lamest, kind of grounds upon which their supposition rests...
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HipChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
41. Because it's the new code word for racism..Birthers are the same folks that wanted to change the law
to allow Arnold to run for President..He was white, so it didn't matter back then
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
42. It's just moving the goalposts
First, they claimed he was a foreigner. So he put out the certificate.

Then they claimed the blacked out document number on the certificate online made it invalid, until HI said it was meaningless, and the actual form had a number.

Then they claimed it was invalid because it didn't have a raised seal. Never mind that the entire point of a raised seal is that it doesn't show up when scanned into a computer. Reporters were shown the certificate and confirmed it had the seal.

Then they claimed it was a forgery, since it didn't match other HI certificates. Then the birthers discovered that the form was redesigned between Obama's and the one they were comparing it to.

So now they've settled on this "long form" nonsense.

And if Obama produced the long form, first they'd find all sorts of things "wrong" with it, which would turn out to be a non issue. Then they'd claim that the long form is meaningless without 3rd party witnesses or something similar.
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