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Trump's birther theory doesn't even make any sense

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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:43 PM
Original message
Trump's birther theory doesn't even make any sense
Edited on Thu Apr-07-11 07:54 PM by EffieBlack
Trump is claiming that Ann Dunham Obama had a baby in Kenya, then got on a plane a few days after giving birth, flew halfway across the world, smuggled herself and her little brown baby into the United States, then conspired with her parents to plant a birth announcement, fake a birth certificate and then pretend for years that her son had been born in the United States.

He suggests that this happened because it was advantageous for little Barack to be an American citizen.

But, even under Trump's ridiculous scenario, Barack would have been an American citizen, without all of the subterfuge. The fact that he was born to an American mother would have automatically made him a citizen of the United States, regardless where the birth actually occurred. And even if it didn't, he could easily have become a citizen through naturalization. As a naturalized citizen, he would have all of the rights, privileges and immunities of a natural-born citizen - he could vote, he could buy property, he could run for public office, he could become a mayor or congressman or senator. The only thing he couldn't do is become President.

But does anyone really believe that a white teenager whose marriage to an African man was not even legal in several states, back in 1961, just seven years after the Brown decision, six years after the Montgomery Bus Boycott, two years before the March on Washington, three years before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, four years before the Voting Rights Act, when there were no black governors, no black mayors of any major city, no black senators and only four black Congressman, masterminded several federal crimes in order to make sure that her black son was eligible to run for president one day?

Sure . . .

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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. He's already been categorized with other loonies
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. I wish the media people who interview him wouldn't let him
Edited on Thu Apr-07-11 07:47 PM by pnwmom
get away with so many idiocies.

Why don't they correct him when he spouts off nonsense?

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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Why is Lawrence O'Donnell showing the entire Today Show interview?
Why give this guy that kind of exposure?
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #8
31. My guess is that no one has yet found an effective way to deal with RW lies
After 2004, I thought the effort to counter every lie quickly and to create sites that people could use to spread the truth using the same viral method that the lie used was promising.

But, this lie is unbelievable on the surface and the proof that he was born in Hawaii is completely overwhelming and simple to understand. Unlike almost any other possible attack, this is not "he said, she said" - it is completely unambiguous.

The problem is that there are two conflicting views of how to handle it.

1) This view says that you need to completely destroy any lie completely - or, unchallenged, it gains credibility. (Having al the records on your side doesn't count.

2) This view says that letting the liar have time to lie on shows where the intent is to debunk it, feeds the story. Many people, not really paying attention, start to think maybe there is something there - or it would not be around 2 1/2 years later. (I've heard one RW person argue that if everything were proven, why has Obama spent millions fighting the claim. (this was FOX, no backup was needed.)

At minimum, I think that BOTH views would be happier with NOT giving the rat haired Trump the time to speak - go directly to saying that "Trump said, "....." " and then countering it.

I suspect the reason that Trump is everywhere is the media thinks he is fascinating.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. Full-blown nutter.
:crazy:
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. Very well put.
:rofl:
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. Get ready for the claim that Stanley Ann Dunham is not his mother, just part of
the coverup.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Even though, with certain expressions he looks exactly like her and her father.
He has her father's ears for crying out loud.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. The Dunhams can't deny him, and he can't deny them
He looks very much like his mother and his grandfather, especially, as you said, when he gets certain expressions on his face.

Or, as my grandmother would say - "He looks like they spit him out."

I've never really been sure how that's supposed to mean that he looks just like her, but that's what it means . . .
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Remember who we're talking about here - logic means nothing to these people.
I love your grandmother's saying! Never heard it before.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Isn't that cute?
I just don't understand where it came from - I don't think that anything I've ever spit out looks anything like me - or at least I hope not . . .
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Doesn't matter. They picked the "players" very well. Mark my words. nt
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Politifact gives Trump a FALSE rating - see below
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. Sadly, for teabaggers it doesn't have to make sense :(
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Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
9. It doesn't make sense, but your criticism of him is also erroneous.
You're right, that, under current law, Obama would be a U.S. citizen if born abroad to one citizen and one non-citizen parent.

Under the law in effect at the time, though, a child born in such circumstances acquired citizenship by birth only if the U.S. citizen parent had lived in the United States for at least five years after reaching his or her fourteenth birthday. Ann Dunham was only 18 when she gave birth. Therefore, if she had given birth in Kenya, her child would not be a natural-born citizen.

The real reason Trump's charge makes no sense is that there is zero evidence to support this fantasy of a Dunham trip to Kenya, and ample reason to doubt it. She's a student in the United States, with access to First World obstetrical care. Her parents and friends are nearby. Nevertheless, late in her pregnancy, she comes up with the money to fly halfway around the world to a place she's never been, so she can give birth in an underdeveloped British colony? And then, as you say, sneaks the kid back into the United States and concocts a document trail?

In any other context, no sensible person would take this story seriously.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Are you sure about that?
My research indicates that you are correct that the mother was and is required to have lived at least five years in the United States - but the Code of Federal Regulations requires that only two of those years needed to have been after her 14th birthday.

Which makes sense since, otherwise, it would have meant that no child born to a non-citizen and an American under the age of 19 could ever be a natural born citizen if born overseas.
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Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. I'm relying on a law professor who researched it closely.
The requirement you cite (at least five years of residency in the United States, at least two of those years after the citizen parent's 14th birthday) reflects a 1986 amendment. At the time of Obama's birth, the requirement was more restrictive: at least 10 years of residency in the United States, at least five of those years after the citizen parent's 14th birthday. The 1986 change was not retroactive. See this commentary for the details.

I won't say "Yes, I'm 100% sure" without doing my own research. I was at one point somewhat knowledgeable about this whole sideshow, and I got involved in editing the Wikipedia article about it. It was my work there that caused the Birther Queen herself to give me the endorsement memorialized in my sig. More recently, though, as the novelty has worn off, I've lost interest. I'm not going to take the time to do my own research because, as you and I both know, the whole premise (Obama birth in Kenya) is absurd.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. you cannot take away his citizenship based on some theory you concoct in 2011
no matter what it is.

it's over, it's done. it's 2011.
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unc70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. US Citizens are "natural born" or "naturalized" -- McCain "naturalized"
The questions about "natural born" began with McCain. The Panama Canal Zone was sovereign US territory and was explicitly in the Naturalization Act. Therefore, "naturalized" and not qualified. Same if on the Navy base. Made moot by his being born outside the CZ, a natural born citizen of Panama and a naturalized US citizen a birth.

The Constitution is clear that born in the US (natural born) and those resident on ratification (grandfathered) were qualified for President. Congress was given the enumerated power to enact Uniform Rules for Naturalization, and anyone granted citizenship under such rules is by definition a naturalized citizen.

Until the 14th amendment, the status of a former slave (freed after 1787) is unclear, but any children of theirs should be natural born citizens. In a few states including NC, they were granted those rights, could even vote until the 1830's.

The Wiki is wrong, the RW law profs usually have agendas, most recently trying to find ways in support McCain. There were some who argued that natural born required having one or both parents also be citizens. They all try to used the first Naturalization Act of 1790 to justify "natural born" by rule; the act was drafted in error and repealed by the NA of 1795 which only uses the term "citizen".

Related arguments are regarding anchor babies and trying to deny them citizenship.



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Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. I disagree. The Constitution doesn't require birth in the U.S.
You write, "The Constitution is clear that born in the US (natural born) and those resident on ratification (grandfathered) were qualified for President...." The first part of that summary is your interpretation, not a clear mandate of the text. The Constitution says only that natural born citizens are eligible. It doesn't say that "natural born" means all and only those born in the U.S.

To my mind, the most natural interpretation is that a natural born citizen is one who acquires citizenship at birth, automatically, without naturalization or other post-birth legal process. If the law at the time of the infant's birth is that citizenship is conveyed at birth through the citizenship of one or both parents, regardless of the place of birth, then I'd say that child is eligible to be President.

Some of the birther extremists (yes, there are people who are fringe even within birtherism) say that "natural born" means born in the United States AND born to two U.S. citizen parents. That's another interpretation, but it's also one that, in my opinion, goes well beyond the text.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Thanks!
Edited on Fri Apr-08-11 12:41 PM by EffieBlack
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. no, the real reason the theory or yours makes no sense, he has official paperwork of a citizen
a birth certificate.

that's all that's needed.

end of discussion, really, or you post your birth certificate, right here, right now. if not, you are a hypocrite.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. nm
Edited on Fri Apr-08-11 03:34 PM by ecstatic
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
12. Let the Repubes run with it (NT)
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. I would love to smack Trump upside the head with a frying pan.
It makes a cool sound (1:04): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1900A_ktEg
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
15. Trump claims to love the tea party.
That means that he's willingly undergone a partial brainectomy. Chances are that his spelling has also deteriorated.


-
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NICO9000 Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
36. And why shouldn't he?
He knows a bunch of suckers when he sees 'em.
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
16. Appealing to as many teabag demographics as possible with that smear.
Sicko.
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golfguru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
20. Let Trump stay on the birther issue
It will assure Obama victory in 2012 if Trump is the nominee.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
21. You are wrong about the naturalization part allowing him to be president.
1) His mother being a USA citizen makes him qualified.
2) Born in Hawaii makes him qualified.

Arnold Schwarzenegger is an American citizen (1983) but not eligible.
Janet Granholm is an American citizen (1980) but not eligible.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Read it again
I didn't say a naturalized citizen could become president - I very explicitly said that a naturalized citizen could NOT become president.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. My mistake.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
27. Trump isn't even trying to make sense...That was never part of his plan
"Making sense" and talking like a rational, sane human being is BORING and makes the media pack up the cameras, microphones and spotlights and find someone else to give them what they want...
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
28. Birthers are morons and Trump is just trying to use their ignorance to his advantage
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
30. This really makes incredible sense and it shows how idiotic this stupid claim
really is. That and the fact that his birth - at a Hawaii hospital is incredibly well documented.

It fascinates me that the Republicans, in the last two elections, questioned things, where the record was solid and impeccable - and have demanded proof - even after proof has been given. The people believing that Obama is Kenyan are delusional and the people reading them that garbage are immoral and pathological.

It amazes me that they have enough of an echo chamber that obvious lies are allowed to flourish and that truth (or logic) absolutely can not get in the cocoon they live in.

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whistler162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
32. Another attempt by a UK citizen at humour!
Edited on Fri Apr-08-11 11:54 AM by whistler162
Donald you aren't funny. Go back to Scotland where you where born.

Why did your parents smuggle you into the U.S. anyway?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg0m5bQGcVc
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Travelman Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
34. It gets even better:
Not only would Dunham have had to literally leap onto a plane the moment the umbilical was cut, but also she would have had to transit at least two countries with a baby who had no passport! Then she would have had to enter the United States, again, with a baby who had no passport. YOu just don't do that. And this wasn't any different back in '61: you don't just waltz into the country with a baby who has no passport.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Not to mention a white woman waltzing into the country with a black baby with no passport in 1961
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unc70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Then takes him from Hawaii to Seattle by early September
That's a lot of flying even now and without an infant.

Since they really do not advise flying with a newborn, when I found out they were already living in Seattle by early September, it seemed a big undertaking for an 18 year old woman with her newborn. Unlikely, but possible, that she went by boat.

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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
37. that's their favorite kind of theory n/t
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