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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 06:40 PM
Original message
Jim Webb Joins Party Of No, Jay Rockefeller Joins Party Of Slow

Jim Webb Joins Party Of No, Jay Rockefeller Joins Party Of Slow

Yesterday, Sen. Jim Webb (D-VA) and Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) disparaged President Barack Obama’s efforts to fight global warming and build a green economy. The Senate, bogged down by Republicans and conservative Democrats, has become the key impediment to the passage of an international climate treaty and clean energy legislation. Unveiling a $100 billion nuclear-industry subsidy plan with Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-TN), Webb disparaged the Clean Energy Jobs and American Power Act (S. 1733) drafted by Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) and Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA), saying he “would not vote for it“:

In its present form, I would not vote for it. I have some real questions about the real complexities on cap and trade.

Last year, Webb asserted that “we can’t just start with things like emission standards at a time when we’re at a crisis with the entire national energy policy.” Webb seems to be aligning himself strongly with Republicans who believe that climate change is not a real threat that requires significant reductions in emissions. Perhaps the veterans and military leaders that have mobilized in Operation Free should give him a few briefings.

more


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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's too bad..looks like
he needs some strong letters written to him so he can see the light.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ah! Democratic Conservatives are given a pass to look out for
their Constituents wishes--why not Liberal Democrats?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. +10
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Blaukraut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Good question!
My Senators (Kerry and Kennedy in the past), two of the more liberal members of the Senate, are always counted on and expected to compromise. As as constituent, this pisses me off, but I don't blame them. I blame the leadership for being weak and the Conservadems for being misguided.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Are you suggesting that Webb is a liberal Democrat?
He was a Reagan Secretary of the Navy.

If you are asking why liberal Democarts are not given a pass for looking out for their constituents, the reason is that liberal Democrats WANT HCR or C&T to pass - and they know that it is better to get some of what you want than none.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Some people are under a spell when it comes to Webb.
Edited on Tue Nov-17-09 09:24 PM by Mass
(Like other true conservatives, he was right on Iraq, so he must be right on everything).

For the rest, I respectfully disagree. The liberal Democrats need to fight harder, but on all these issues, HCR, CT, Guantanamo Bay, trial at New York, ... Webb is not a liberal, far from it.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Define "liberal Democrat"
Webb is one of the few Democratic senators http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009246">actually speaking up for the working class. Lots of Democratic senators who are ordinarily considered "liberals" have used their terms in the Senate to speak up on behalf of corporations, instead.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. There are plenty of Democratic Senators who have done more
for the working class. I would say that if I wanted to name a person who most personifies liberal Democrat - I would pick Ted Kennedy. The issues that define him as liberal were his constant effort to use government to make life better for people who are less fortunate. He fought over 40 years to increase people's access to health care and worked many times to raise the minimum wage. He also fought for equality, whether it was the Civil Rights Act or Title 9.

Webb is to the most conservative side of the Democratic party - He was a Reagan Democrat. If you what votes, his is not one that you can routinely count on on issues like health care or other issues where the government helps people. I suspect that what you are referring to is that he is against free trade. I do understand that that is important, but it does not make him a liberal.

The fact is that many Democrats, who you are more skeptical of have many accomplishments that they can point to that really did help disadvantaged people, far more than people whose words (Webb or Edwards) you seem impressed by. There is no reason to think that Webb is not as influenced by corporations as other Senators are. (For instances, look at his and John Kerry's respective positions on climate change - Webb is more corporate influenced by far. In addition, Kerry has been the corporate sponsor of Youthbuild, which helps underpriviledged youth, wrote with Kennedy the precursor bill to SCHIP, wrote legislation that provided help to women's and minority small businesses - including some that contained microloans, and was the sponsor for at least 3 Congresses of the affordable housing fund. The fact is that Kerry was FAR BETTER for working people in 2004 than Edwards who talked about it, but voted for the awful bankruptcy act.)
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. Last I saw, Webb is a yes vote on the public option
He's certainly no flaming liberal but I'd say that actually he's right about in the middle of the Democratic Caucus which is surprising given that Virginia is a red-leaning state that just went blue for the first time since LBJ.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. By the way, back in the days when Webb was in the Reagan administration ,
Edited on Tue Nov-17-09 10:55 PM by karynnj
is when this problem started to accelerate. Many people spoke of the same thing. Here's an excerpt from the Senate record - 1993 - Guess the Senator.


In many ways, we are witnessing the most rapid change in the workplace in this country since the postwar era began. For a majority of working Americans, the changes are utterly at odds with the expectations they nurtured growing up.
Millions of Americans grew up feeling they had a kind of implied contract with their country, a contract for the American dream. If you applied yourself, got an education, went to work, and worked hard, then you had a reasonable shot at an income, a home, time for family, and a graceful retirement. Today, those comfortable assumptions have been shattered by the realization that no job is safe, no future assured. And many Americans simply feel betrayed.

To this day I'm not sure that official Washington fully comprehends what has happened to working America in the last 20 years, a period when the incomes of the majority declined in real terms.

In the decade following 1953, the typical male worker, head of his household, aged 40 to 50, saw his real income grow 36 percent. The 40-something workers from 1963 to 1973 saw their incomes grow 25 percent. The 40-something workers from 1973 to 1983 saw their incomes decline, by 14 percent, and reliable estimates indicate that the period of 1983 to 1993 will show a similar decline.
From 1969 to 1989 average weekly earnings in this country declined from $387 to $335.

No wonder then, that millions of women entered the work force, not simply because the opportunity opened for the first time. They had no choice. More and more families needed two incomes to support a family, where one had once been enough. It began to be insufficient to have two incomes in the family. By 1989 the number of people working at more than one job hit a record high. And then even this was not enough to maintain living standards. Family income growth simply slowed down. Between 1979 and 1989 it grew more slowly than at any period since World War II. In 1989 the median family income was only $1,528 greater than it had been 10 years earlier. In prior decades real family income would increase by that same amount every 22 months. When the recession began in 1989, the average family's inflation-adjusted income fell 4.4 percent, a $1,640 drop, or more than the entire gain from the eighties.

Younger people now make less money at the beginning of their careers, and can expect their incomes to grow more slowly than their parents'. Families headed by persons aged 25 to 34 in 1989 had incomes $1,715 less than their counterparts did 10 years earlier, in 1979. Evidence continues to suggest that persons born after 1945 simply will not achieve the same incomes in middle-age that their parents achieved.

Thus, Mr. President, it is a treadmill world for millions of Americans. They work hard, they spend less time with their families, but their incomes don't go up. The more their incomes stagnate, the more they work. The more they work, the more they leave the kids alone, and the more they need child care. The more they need child care, the more they need to work.
Why are we surprised at the statistics on the hours children spend in front of the television; about illiteracy rates; about teenage crime and pregnancy? All the adults are working and too many kids are raising themselves.


Of course, there is another story to be found in the numbers. Not everyone is suffering from a declining income. Those at the top of the income scale are seeing their incomes increase, and as a result income inequality in this Nation is growing dramatically. Overall, the 30 percent of our people at the top of the income scale have secured more and more, while the bottom 70 percent have been losing. The richest 1 percent saw their incomes grow 62 percent during the 1980's, capturing a full 53 percent of the total income growth among all families in the entire economy. This represents a dramatic reversal of what had been a post-war trend toward equality in this country. It also means that the less well-off in our society--the same Americans who lost out in the Reagan tax revolution--are the ones being hurt by changes in the economy.

You might say that we long ago left the world of Ward and June Clever. We have entered the world of Roseanne and Dan, and the yuppies from `L.A. Law' working downtown.

Many, many commentators have explained how the assumptions from that long-ago world will cripple us if we do not have the courage to look at today's economy with a clear eye. Back then, we were the only economic superpower. American companies had virtually no competition and, since they produced almost entirely in the United States, their workers felt no particular threat from workers abroad. This was the era when `Made in Japan' meant something was cheap--not good, just cheap.

Throughout the 1950's and 1960's productivity was rising rapidly throughout the American economy, so that people could expect over time to work less, but earn more. Back then, free trade for America meant more markets for America, not competition. We maintained the Bretton Woods rules, the GATT, and other treaty obligations not only to buttress the free world against communism, and not only out of the goodness of our hearts; we enforced a basic level of stability in the world because a stable world meant open markets for us, and we made the products people most wanted to buy.

Back then, large corporations and large unions set the pace for middle-class prosperity. Remember it was Henry Ford, no fan of unions, who created the mass production line to turn out cars cheaply--cheaply enough so that his own workers could buy them. When he finally capitulated to the United Auto Workers, he gave his workers the largest settlement of the Big Three.
In those days, Fortune 500 companies controlled well over 50 percent of our total economy, and employed three-quarters of our manufacturing work force. If the New Deal built the floor for personal security in America, the corporate economy put up the middle-class safety net, with pension plans and health insurance. In those days, American families lived on one man's paycheck, from one job that lasted with one company for an entire lifetime. If you were laid off, you were laid off for the duration, and you were called back when business picked up.

No more.

And two key words summarize the difference: globalization and technology. Each one feeds the other. Each one confronts American employers with a choice: Can I beat the competition by making a stand in America with my own workers, or must I beat the competition by going abroad? Will my workers join the ranks of the 70 percent falling behind, or will they join the ranks of the 30 percent--or fewer--who will get ahead?

The dynamics of this are familiar to anybody who works. Technology, particularly computer technology, makes it possible to move production anywhere in the world. Technology makes it possible for formerly large corporations to make do with drastically fewer people at home. Remember those bar-code readers.

Increasingly freer trade amongst nations means that competition comes from low-wage workers in developing countries, or from high-skilled, highly productive workers in the industrialized countries. The choice is a stark one: either a nation must secure more technology and become more productive or it must underbid all others for labor and other costs. Most countries understand that this is a choice they have to make. I submit to you, Mr. President, that this is a choice which we are not making, and the consequence is that the choice is being made for us--toward low costs, leading to the unprecedented wave of downsizing underway in our economy.

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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. there are populist repubs who do that too
not saying webb IS one, but there are dems who basically pimp for big corps and could not give a rat's ass about the working class, and there are repubs who do the same (country club repubs). there is a populist strain amongst conservatives, and saying webb is a populist doesn't make him a liberal. webb's major point of "democratic cred" was his stance on the war, and that would certainly make him a minority amongst repubs, but it... and support of the working class doesn't make him a liberal. fwiw, i am not a liberal myself. I'm a democrat. I support universal healthcare, and marriage equality and MJ legalization and choice, so that might give me some liberal cred, but there are plenty of issues i disagree strongly with liberals on, such as vouchers, the afghanistan war, etc. webb is a lot of things, but he is NOT a liberal imo
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Shouldn't we be sending lumps of coal to these bought-and-paid-for coal state senators?
Then again, they might love that...
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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. Candy Crowley actually said something true tonight
Edited on Tue Nov-17-09 07:44 PM by Thrill
There are Democrats in Congress who are basically Republicans
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. Webb's in denial along with the republicons and
is going to be left in the dust if he doesn't wake up.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. Webb is right on this
Cap & Trade is being advanced by the financial industry insiders who would be the real profiteers from the legislation. The rest of us would get what, an energy tax and a kick in the nuts to the economy? It doesn't even solve any actual problem, it simply hands over power over our energy policy to Wall Street.

Webb is right to want a closer, detailed look.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. So, what do you propose. That we continue doing nothing?
Edited on Tue Nov-17-09 09:20 PM by Mass
Cap and trade is part of a solution against global climate change. Webb does not want it because he comes from a coal country and, just as Rockefeller, defends its perceived interest. (as we all know, global climate change will avoid West Virginia).

Webb is often right, but he is also often wrong, and here, he is wrong. We need to pass a bill that will allow to do what is necessary. Gore, Boxer, Kerry, and all those who have worked on that for years are a lot better on this option that Webb, whose record when it comes to the environment is very weak.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Kerry pushed cap and trade for SO2 to combat acid rain in 1983 or 1984
Edited on Tue Nov-17-09 10:11 PM by karynnj
as LT GOV of MA. The fact is that it is a mechanism that allows the market to push companies to lower their carbon output by putting a price on it. Now, it is reasonable to be concerned by how it is designed and Kerry has addressed that several times. The fact is you are totally wrong that financial insiders will be the winners - Kerry has said that they will forbid speculation.

The fact is that cap and trade very successfully cut SO2. CO2 will be harder, but the economics are similar and it can work.

The fact is that Kerry knows far more on this than Webb does.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Did this version contain offsets?
Thats where I see this bill becoming irrelevant and open to fraud.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. It is stricter on international offsets than Markey/Waxman
enough that people who sell the offsets are unhappy. Here is an article written from their point of view - http://www.grist.org/article/2009-10-26-supply-and-demand/ I assume that the reason the international offsets are so limited is because the bill anticipates plants needing fewer as they make the changes to reduce their emissions.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. CO2 is dissimilar to SO2 in fundamental ways
The scale of CO2 output dwarfs SO2, which was a problem that was largely specific to a subset of a single industry (coal power generation). In contrast, CO2 byproducts are ubiquitous.

No matter what Kerry has said, I don't believe that this won't turn into a financial company windfall and produce no tangible benefit to anyone else. The banks have proven repeatedly that they own our government through and through, and until that changes there is no piece of legislation that can be trusted. The reason they're making the laws so voluminous these days is so you can't figure out what it really says until it is way too late to do anything about it.

The CBO purportedly estimated the direct economic impact at $1400 per household. In times like these who can afford that? Definitely not your average person, who is barely making ends meet as it is.

We're going to see a major reduction in CO2 output anyway from the crashing economy, as C02 emissions are directly correlated to economic activity. The timing on this legislation is absolutely terrible, and if it passes we can kiss the Democratic majorities goodbye.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. If you try to find a link to the "purported" cost, you would find that your
Edited on Wed Nov-18-09 08:46 AM by karynnj
estimate is from the corporations that you say you don't trust. The CBO report on Markey/Waxman, which is similar to Kerry/Boxer, was estimated the cost as:


On that basis, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that the net
annual economywide cost of the cap-and-trade program in 2020 would be
$22 billion—or about $175 per household. That figure includes the cost of
restructuring the production and use of energy and of payments made to foreign
entities under the program, but it does not include the economic benefits and other
benefits of the reduction in GHG emissions and the associated slowing of climate
change.
CBO could not determine the incidence of certain pieces (including both
costs and benefits) that represent, on net, about 8 percent of the total. For the
remaining portion of the net cost, households in the lowest income quintile would
see an average net benefit of about $40 in 2020,
while households in the highest
income quintile would see a net cost of $245. Added costs for households in the
second lowest quintile would be about $40 that year; in the middle quintile, about
$235; and in the fourth quintile, about $340. Overall net costs would average 0.2
percent of households’ after-tax income.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090620/cbowaxmanmarkey.pdf

EPA also did their estimate for Kerry/Boxer - $80 to $110 - http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2009/10/epa-finds-kerry-boxer-would-come-low-cost-households Can you find a link to your "purported" amount that is over 10 times higher? (I would bet that the cleaner air that will result as it takes hold itself will reduce even that cost by reducing the number of asthma attacks caused by pollution.) In addition, neither of these studies include the cost of doing nothing. The British Stern Report indicates that the costs that will be incurred if climate change progresses is high - far higher than the costs estimated here.

In addition, cap and trade in Kerry/Boxer is on only the top 2% of polluters, who produce 70% of the emissions. It is not on all CO2 emitters. The scale is still larger than the SO2, but not by the magnitude that you suggest. The fact is that we need a mechanism to assign a cost to carbon. That will mean that businesses will then explicitly include the cost of carbon in their cost models and it will impact their decisions when they must choose between technologies or products.

The timing on the legislation is driven by the need to do this internationally. While it is true that a crashing economy does lower economic activity, that is really a god awful long term solution. In addition, the economy now is starting an upturn. I would rather bet that it will continue and by the time that legislation is passed and it becomes effective, we will be further up the curve. The fact is that there NEVER will be a time that you will think is good to make this needed change - especially if you don't look at where cost estimates thrown around are coming from. One woman who estimated job loses at the Finance committee worked for a foundation that received a large grant from Exxon/Mobile.

As to losing Democratic majorities, what good are they if we don't use them to make the hard choices and do the right things. Not to mention, I don't think that we will lose them by passing healthcare, climate change, a real financial reform bill (here is something we need to watch and Dodd has a real incentive to do a good job - it may be the only thing that can remove the stigma of things like his sweetheart mortgage), and if we are really exiting Iraq by the elections.

The fact is that though the media pushed the idea that Obama has done nothing to improve the economy - by strict economic definition, the recession has ended. This does not mean the economy is healthy, but it does mean that it is no longer spiraling down as it was when he took office, and it is slowly growing. Wall Street always improves before the economy itself does - and you can see a huge improvement since the market bottomed out in March. I would bet that the same talking heads bemoaning that the stimulus isn't working have seen their 401ks improve nearly 50% since March (DJ bottomed then at 7063 and it is now about 10,437.)
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jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Cap and Tradeis a hoax
It will have almost no effect on emissions. It's another Wall St gimmick, designed to funnel money from the poor to the rich.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Why don't we hear of acid rain any more?
It seems the cap and trade system worked well there to reduce SO2 emissions.
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ncteechur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. How many non-dickheads are currently in the senate?
Feingold
Boxer
Franken
...
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. On this issue, you may want to review that list
The fact is that Kerry and Boxer are very good. Feingold and Franken are 2 of the 14 Senators that want Kerry to give coal plants waivers for 100% of their carbon output.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. It's bad enough having RWers spew this crap
I've had it up to here with "conservative Democrats"

Why did they join the party if they're going to vote in lockstep with the GOP, even using their talking points?
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
27. Looks like Webb's days as a DU Darling have officially ended. (nt)
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LatteLibertine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. *sigh*
Yep, I use to like him quite a bit myself.
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