Before you hate this tax deal you may want to consider this side.

[styersc]

We have already heard that as far as stimulus, this is a really good deal for progressives. The president got more stimulus dollars then he did in the initial stimulus plan focused on liberal agenda items: green energy, infrastructure, education, support for small business owners, etc. We also know that the umemployed recieved a guarantee 13 month extension of benefits while looking for work. These are unarguably good things.

The hitch, for some, is that we had to pay off the rich with the extension of current tax structure which was a gift from Bush.

But please note, if you really want to give a gift to the rich, kill this deal. This country will lose the stimulus items. As, or more important, those who are without work and are running up to the end of their unemployment benefits will have to take work for far less money. Business owners, many of the same rich who have the tax break, will be able to lower wages tremendously as desperate people will be forced to take jobs, sometimes the same jobs they were working, for greatly reduced wages. Businesses will be able to replace workers with lower paid workers who are forced to work for less then they are worth, because we threw this deal away and pulled the safety net away. This is a bigger gift to the rich then temporary tax breaks and once wages deflate, it takes a very long time for them to budge upwards.

The compromise deal gives both side a win, and I believe that the Dem's win is a bit more substantial, particularly since it supports those who are vulnerable pawns in this "game". A gift to the rich is a bitter pill to swallow, but in this instance, it is worth it to help our unemployed friends and protect the wages that are currently barely enough.

[jaxx]

1. Yes, both sides do get a win, and the Dems get the biggest win.

The President is looking out for the unemployed and the middle class. It's a good compromise.

[bowens43]

30. you really believe that bullshit?

This was NOT a win. This was a loss. But if it makes you feel better go ahead, keep apologizing and rationalizing Obama's failures.

[jaxx]

35. Hey! I'm not apologizing. Get that straight.

I'm saying it's a good deal. A win in several categories.

[niceypoo]

41. Its a shitty deal and it is ill conceived

How is extending the recession by two additional years a good deal?

[niceypoo]

40. Lemme guess, Dems avoid a big tax hike?

That is the narrative coming out of the whitehouse (GOP talking point).

[leveymg]

2. Or, as Sen. Sanders points out, Obama can pay for extended UIC benefits out of unspent TARP funds

There's always a way to find federal funds, if you really want to. Or, you can cut deals with the Devil, if you really want to.

It's his choice. How he proceeds on this is telling us a lot about what his real priorities are.

[styersc]

10. I would to read the bill that Bernie wrote. Where is it?

Oh, I got it.

[leveymg]

12. No need to write a Bill for that. TARP/TARF spending is at the discretion of the President/Treas.

And, of course, the NY Federal Reserve could simply issue Overnight Window withdrawal privileges for up to $9 Trillion for the unemployed, if they wanted to. They already showed how it's done - the unemployed just need to incorporate themselves as a global bank or multinational corporation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. How Can The Pres Allocate Funds Without Congressional Approval?

.

[leveymg]

36. Disbursement is already approved up to the limit of the appropriation

Congress doesn't sign off on every expenditure, every nut and bolt purchased, every appropriated dollar disbursed.

[still_one]

3. This will NOT create any jobs, as the bush tax cuts haven;t supplied any jobs, and to boot it will

create 1 trillion in debt at by the end of two years, and when they start looking to programs to cut, they will look toward Social Security and Medicare

[stray cat]

6. Unemployment, tax cuts for low incomes, breaks for hiring all create jobs

I would rather see nothing passed but parts of the bill are stimulative

[still_one]

14. Unemployment has gotten worse, and we have had the tax cuts for several years. Reagan's trickle

down economics back then was shown it didn't work, and it won't work this time either

As for you tax cuts for low income. Actually, the tax will increase for those less able to afford it

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/12/08/104986/under-obamas-deal-taxes-will-rise.html

This will not make a significant impact, and it will create problems for entitlements such as social security and medicare

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/economists-say-tax-cut-deal-wont-dramatically-stimulate-the-economy.php

[bowens43]

32. No, they do not.

These tax rates have been in place for nine years. They have created NO jobs.

[niceypoo]

42. Supply side also drives down wages

...as we have seen over the last ten years.

[GinaMaria]

48. These are not the best options for stimulating the economy

except the unemployement benefits.

http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/assissing-the-impact-of-the-fiscal-stimulus.pdf

Check Table 1 on page 4

Fiscal Economic Bang for the Buck
One year $ change in real GDP for a given $ reduction in federal tax revenue or increase
in spending

Tax Cuts
Non-refundable lump-sum tax rebate 1.02
Refundable lump-sum tax rebate 1.26

Temporary tax cuts
payroll tax holiday 1.29
Across the board tax cut 1.03
Accelerated depreciation 0.27

Permanent tax cuts
Extend alternative minimum tax patch 0.48
Make Bush income tax cuts permanent 0.29
Make dividend and capital gains tax cuts permanent 0.37
Cut in corporate tax rate 0.30

Spending Increases
Extending UI benefits 1.64
Temporary increase in food stamps 1.73
General aid to state governments 1.36
Increased infrastructure spending 1.59

The biggest bang for our buck is in Spending increases. UI benefits return 1.64 dollars for every dollar spent. Food stamps 1.73

Permanent tax cuts? yeild less than gets paid out. That's the losing strategy here.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. Krugman says its a bad deal

And Krugman is almost always spot on. I gotta go with Krugman on this.

[stray cat]

7. He also says we should do it right?

[Recursion]

9. +1

Thank you

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. The Consensus Among Economists Is It's A Flawed Plan But Better Than The Status Quo

.

[MannyGoldstein]

21. He does?

Link please?

Thanks.

[Recursion]

27. Do you read his column?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/opinion/10krugman.html

That's probably the big one; his worry is that it will be a political problem for the Democrats, not that there's some better deal out there to be had.

[MannyGoldstein]

33. Where do you see his endorsement in that column?

Rather, he says it's a "bad deal".

[NorthCarolina]

37. Well there you go. You had to ask that didn't you, now you're just gonna get

crickets.

[frazzled]

51. "It would be a noticeable net positive for the economy next year."

True, he argues that it is not a good POLITICAL deal. But Obama may be less interested in the political deal than the deal for the economy in the near term.

All in all, Krugman is walking back a lot in this editorial, while trying to remain true to original reactions.

[harun]

5. It is a bad deal. Have Repukes throw in the Public Option then we can talk business.

[whosinpower]

8. It is extortion, plain and simple

Why paint that as a good thing?

The payroll tax holiday is a wet dream of republicans - and does not belong anywhere as a democrat gain.

The unemployed are being held hostage, and you are trying to spin that this compromise is a good thing. Nothing is further from the truth. America has to BORROW that money from the chinese to "gift" to the billionaires in order to get unemployment benefits extended for 13 months. THAT IS EXTORTION.

Let the tax cuts - all of them expire, on schedule. Create a national jobs program instead to deal directly with the unemployed, instead of this roundabout, vague concept that tax cuts will create jobs. They won't. It might increase demand - but the only jobs that would be increased are the ones overseas - NOT HERE. Why on earth would you give tax cuts to the wealthy to grow chinese jobs?

[chimpymustgo]

11. Thank you. It's extortion. And the crazy rationalization surpasses the Bushbots by far.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. What's Your Plan

The Repubs have already said they will pass a tax cuts bill in the new Congress, probably without the goodies, and you can bet the farm they will find four Dems to support it.

Where will be then?

Contrary to you assertion the Repugnicants have cornered the market on stupidity.

[chimpymustgo]

44. Boehner said WEEKS ago he'd negotiate. WE DID NOT FUCKING TRY.

And the Repugnicants, sadly, have NOT cornered the market on stupidity.

[styersc]

13. Your right.

And I'm certain that you are willing to vacate your job to give it to someone who hasn't wirked for a while. I'm certain that the sacrifices that you are asking, you are willing to take on yourself and do not want to foist on someone else.

That's damned big of you. Sorry I disagreed with you.

[whosinpower]

22. A national jobs program deals with the unemployed directly

It deals with America's jobless. At least that does not grow jobs in China and pays the wealthy at the same time with borrowed money.

BTW - I am a business owner.

Look - the manufacturing base has left the country. Increased demand of goods or services will not grow those jobs back in America - unless policy dictates it - and right now it doesn't.....so throwing money at consumers so they spend more will NOT CREATE LONG TERM JOB GROWTH in America. You know this, but don't care because.....in 13 months, when those benefits run out.....life will somehow be different. You will be in exactly the same position, except billions more in debt to China.

Let the tax cuts expire. Create a national jobs program where government pays for up to 50% of the salary for 26 months - and the only workers eligable to be paid under this scheme must be currently registered as unemployed. Businesses hiring must register an increase in workforce, not a turnover, and jobs must be full time. This helps new businesses, helps start ups, and GROWS JOBS IN AMERICA, FOR AMERICA, BY AMERICA.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Please Tell Me How We Are Going To Get A Jobs Bill Out Of A Republican House

Plese tell me how we are going to get a jobs bill out of the Republican House when we couldn't get one out of a Democratic one?

[styersc]

25. Exactly!!!!

Too many of the arguments against the president's decision to compromise are based on Utopian arguments.

If we want to go that route, no tax deal is necessary at all. The president can sign a bill making hugs currency and all debts will be paid by warm embraces!

Kumbaya........

[whosinpower]

38. Was there one?

A jobs bill that is....

[niceypoo]

43. They could have gotten one this time

But Obama capitulated

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Where Are The Votes For The National Jobs Program?

And where is the government money for 20,000,000 new jobs.

[whosinpower]

26. Where is the money for the tax cuts?

Same place.

We have had this conversation before regarding the unwritten program. It is an idea, as of yet undiscussed and unwritten - presumably, because "tax cuts" are more favourable as a vote getter. But, if tax cuts worked - there would not be the high unemployment now - so throwing more money down that hole this time will not give the benefit you are looking for.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. It's Moot.

I oppose the tax cuts.

Where are the votes to pass a national jobs bill?


They don't exist.

[whosinpower]

34. Your putting the chicken before the egg?

Was there ever a proposal put forward in Congress, or the Senate, of a jobs program specifically targetted to getting people off unemployment and back to work, and at the same time helping businesses?

Perhaps there was, and I missed it......

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. There Have Been Job Bills Offering Tax Breaks For New Hires

But no businessperson is going to hire an employee just to get a tax break.

[Honeycombe8]

16. Don't insult me. This isn't a stimulus. It continues the same things that have been in place for

years. Except that it ADDS to the estate tax breaks. Would you consider an additional estate tax break a stimulus? Neither would I. There is no evidence whatsoever that estate tax breaks stimulate the economy.

[Honeycombe8]

19. You miss the point. It's not just the bill. It's that he didn't consider ANYTHING ELSE.

He just asked the pubes what they need in order not to fight the unemployment extension and the tax cuts for middle class extension. They gave him a wish list. He granted it without checking it twice...and then somehow ADDITIONAL estate tax breaks, over and above what the pubes wanted, got added.

Negotiations? What negotiations? Did you see any pubes on TV explaining why they were turning down Obama's first or second or third offer in the negotiations? Of course not. Because there were no negotiations, as far as can be determined.

THAT'S a big part of the problem. He didn't fight and then compromise, when he couldn't get everything he wanted. He signed off on whatever they asked for, from the get-go. That's called laying over, caving in, or whatever.

He has been outmaneuvered and played like a fiddle. His inexperience shows. I voted for him and I am all for compromise. I totally agree with compromise. But this was no compromise after full negotiations.

He's turned out to be a weak leader, if you consider him a leader at all. Leaders lead. They don't follow...esp. follow the opposing party.

[bushisanidiot]

24. +10000

Good post!

[bowens43]

29. spin spin spin spin

no amount of spin will make this into anything other then obmanation that it is.

This is not a stimulus bill, tax breaks do NOT stimulate the economy.
There was no compromise. The republicans won, the American people lost and the Democratic party lost.
.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. "Obamanation"

I haven't heard that since the primary wars. Someone must be channeling the ghosts of long tombstoned DUERS.

IHHO, the bill is the least bad alternatives out of a bunch of awful ones.

[Warren Stupidity]

45. tax cuts are shitty stimulus.

plus the 'payroll tax holiday' is a republicant time bomb trap. Wise up.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. I Thought I Won You Over With My Unassailable Logic And Reason

All my work has been for naught.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. Argghhh you are right. I Re-Capitulate.

[Hello_Kitty]

47. Most of the items we "got" are things the Republicans like.

I'm at the point where I accept that this deal is going to happen. Please stop with the bullshit sales job. I'm not going to slap a fake smile on my face and pretend shit is chicken salad.

[CakeGrrl]

49. k/r