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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 01:35 PM
Original message
The Abstract World Vs. The Real World
Edited on Sat Dec-11-10 01:45 PM by RBInMaine
The best commentary Obama has made during this tax cut issue debate was about the difference between the abstract world of ideological "principle" and the real concrete world of having to actually govern and citizens having to live their lives. Staunch partisans are deeply entrenched in the abstract world. It is all about "principle" over practicality and over what is possible given the circumstances of the moment.

I'm someone who understands both worlds well as a very active and partisan Democrat, as a teacher of history and civics, and as a middle class person trying to raise a family and pay a mortgage.

So here it is. Both American independence and our post-Revolution democracy were born of compromise.
These were deep and often bitter disputes, but without compromise they knew there would be no new American union at all. Our governing system was essentially designed to REQUIRE compromise through its separation of powers structure.

So here we are. Taxes are about to go up for the middle class which would seriously threaten our recovery. The middle class-only bill has failed under Senate rules. It is defeated, dead, done. No one can possibly demonstrate any actual way to get that version to pass. The Senate R's will not agree to it, period, and if taxes go up on Jan. 1st Dems will take the blame bigtime. The compromise bill on the other hand gets what that bill would do plus many other concessions from R's from unemployment benefits to green energy tax incentives, while also conceding to their side on a very TEMPORARY extension of the cuts for the rich (which I don't like at all, but at least it is only temporary and we can fight again over it soon enough).

Highly-charged partisans stuck in the abstract world need to somehow cut holes in their bubbles and find the real world, or, in the long term, they are doomed to travel the rough road of life proud of their die-hard principles but having actually accomplished little to nothing.
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Andy823 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good post K&R
Seems like a lot of people here are not seeing the whole picture. I am with you, I hate the idea of tax cuts for the wealthy, but I hate the idea of those who need help, the unemployed and middle class being hurt by not doing nothing at all! One thing for sure, the trolls here are doing a great job of keeping the fear and smear going and getting all the long time Obama haters worked up!
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. How about when all the money runs out and the unemployed are
still unemployed and the middle class will still be hurting...and the rich will have more money to fight with..and we will have none..giving a tax cut to the rich is a very bad idea just to keep the middle class and the unemployed going for a couple more year...then what...and possibly social security will be the next thing on the table but the rich will be richer...
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Stuck in the abstract world"
:eyes:
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philly_bob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. Obama said he wants us to make him do the right thing!
We're providing him muscle for the next go-round.

Washington is all terrified of tea-partiers. Maybe they should feel the force of an angry left...
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. The Ironic Thing Is The Tea Baggers Are The Biggest Losers In The Compromise
The Repubs threw their defecit busting under the bus for filthy lucre.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. This is a great point. Wingnuts like BugEyedBachman and DementedDemint are against it.
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philly_bob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Obama in much stronger position now.
Look, Boehner & McConnell, my constituency isn't buying the millionaire tax cuts and your constituency isn't buying the millionaire tax cuts. Let's go back to the drawing board...
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. They won't budge any further right now, and much more "drawing" will take too much time.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. And this doesn't mean you compromise away all your principles, but you do have to compromise.
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. I wish more voices like yours would post more often...
Sometimes the comments here are so disheartening.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Well, I've posted my share of loud comments too, but there is always a balance.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I agree- on both points.
:hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Please, Google a middle school lesson on basic civics and read it.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. K/R
Reality is not going to disappear because it's unpleasant or inconvenient or unfair.

We need to deal with what is going on in front of us or ignore it at our peril.

That includes the fact that there are too many Republicans in Congress and there are about to be more, at least until 2012. LBJ had a SUPERMAJORITY of Dems and didn't have to deal with a filibuster, for all who like to throw him around as a model to emulate.

If people want Progressive policy, change the makeup of Congress.

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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Yup. But sadly, too many ultra-leftists think they are "protesting" by not voting. Silly thinking.
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Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. Ultra-leftists? Where are there ultra-leftists on this site? How far to the right has this .......
party moved that people calling themselves Democrats can support policies like expansion of wars, tax breaks for the rich and mandating the population to buy overpriced health-care from greedy corporations?

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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Funny you got no answer...
Edited on Sun Dec-12-10 04:00 PM by Cherchez la Femme
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Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I wasn't really expecting one. But someone had to point out the obvious. n/t
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
13. Capitulationist thread number 278
Edited on Sat Dec-11-10 03:59 PM by Warren Stupidity
Tedious. I do admire your willingness to keep plugging away.

The fact remains that Obama capitulated without a fight and is now trying to force the Bush Tax Cuts through Congress. Shame on him, and shame on you for boosting this crap.

edit: 278, I lost count.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. "Capitulate, capitulate, capitulate, capitulate YAWN" - Beat another horse. That one's dead.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. No, it's a very live, active horse
much unlike 'our pony'

still winning every race it starts out on.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. No, shame on you for living outside the realm of reality, for being tunnel visioned, and for forget-
ting your middle school civics lessons.
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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
20. The recovery would stand a better chance WITHOUT the tax cuts.
Edited on Sat Dec-11-10 05:38 PM by Milo_Bloom
The tax cuts don't threaten the recovery in the least.

They are completely inconsequential, since they don't change anyone's spending habits in any significant way.

The only thing in the tax deal that is worth a damn is the UI extension.. but it isn't worth throwing 800 BILLION dollars away on... since it is, at best, a temporary solution that will run out and we will still be stuck with the bill and no solutions.

The recovery stands a far better chance if we can ACTUALLY SPEND MONEY ON THE RECOVERY.

As proven over and over and over and over and over and over and over again... tax cuts don't work to boost the economy.

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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. But what you can't get into your mind is that idea won't happen. You are stuck in abstraction.
Edited on Sun Dec-12-10 06:36 AM by RBInMaine
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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Not in the least.
The tax cuts costs (now) over 800 billion in WASTED dollars. (they are actually 853 billion now, but 40 billion goes to the unemployed and that is the only money not WASTED).

Adding an additional 800 BILLION to the deficit and thus the debt makes it HARDER to do anything in the future.

Here's what do you don't do... pass a 800+ billion dollar package, just to get 40 billion to the unemployed when we are already in deep debt and making 300 billion dollar interest payments each year.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. And you are stuck without principles
merely adulation for one over the best benefit of the many.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. I don't know if this is hero worship at the expense of everything else or self-aggrandizing,
but it's silly nonetheless.

The economy is wobbly at best, and although a lack of a middle-class tax rate freeze would have some impact, it's far from certain that it would be ruinous. What WOULD be ruinous is reinforcing the reactionaries' assumption that he can be steamrollered about anything. Actually, that's been done, so I guess the battle's already lost.

What do we owe this man? Why are we all supposed to dutifully report to the Soylent Green factory without a peep just so he can have a second term and the image of Gandhi-like transcendence can further warm the hearts of the narcissistic fucks who are so full of themselves for having "picked a winner"?

Certain posters are SO wrapped up with their egos and their adulation of this man that seemingly ANYTHING he does must be skewed to fit this worldview. I'm not really talking about he thread-starter here, but there are quite a few VERY active posters here with threads on this page just shrieking at any opinions to the contrary, and a major component of this is flimsy egos NEEDING to crush all opposition.

The real issue here, to me, isn't so much the particular legislation at hand, it's the method by which it was done: he sidestepped Congress on what is a Congressional issue to make a deal with the enemy, and he did it without making them deploy and show themselves as the monarchic thugs they are.

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Union Scribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
21. Getting tired of this latest talking point used against critics
They live in a "fantasy land"
They live in a "bubble"
They aren't in the "real world"

But hey, at least you didn't flat out call us insane this time, I guess that's a plus. I mean, you're implying it, but bravo on the slightly increased self-restraint.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. so you're getting tired of it...
Edited on Sat Dec-11-10 06:40 PM by Teaser
Why should anyone care?
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Union Scribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. They should care that they are making themselves look lazy
and are sewing more discord than the people they're accusing ever could.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. But yet you and yours go on and on and on with "cave, capitulate, cave, capitulate" bla bla bla.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Yes, the notion that middle class tax cuts only could pass is crazy since it has already
Edited on Sun Dec-12-10 06:43 AM by RBInMaine
failed. What makes you think it could come back and pass? Yes, I struck with a nerve-touching dose of tough language to counter all the very nasty and hyperbolic attacks against Obama on this board over this issue. It has been ridiculous. Are you concerned about that at all?

Still, please explain to me how in the real world you are going to get the R's to agree to tax cuts just for the middle class. Please tell me how it could happen. Or are you someone so stuck in abstraction and detached from reality that you go so far as to advocate for the removal of ALL tax cuts?

Again, please understand the message. You are log-jammed in ideological abstraction while tax cuts for the middle class are about to expire. You need to think real world ACTION that can actually be achieved given the Senate numbers and within the system we have and not just about an abstract ideological fight.
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. It failed
with NO support from the President.

That's why it failed.
If he tried, tried hard, and it still failed that would be a different thing

but, as usual, he didn't even try but gave up before he even started negotiations.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. I have no intention of getting the Republicans to agree to anything
I want the cuts to expire. I would love to see lower bracket relief so to do that in a sustainable fashion the upper brackets would have to pay more or we'd have create new brackets.

Failing that, I'm fully prepared to simply do nothing. The only possible hook for my perspective is the foul tie in with unemployment benefits. The package remains objectively unacceptable for the future of the government and most of our people but it does introduce a painful moral element that causes one to allow a city to be destroyed to open a path to attack the command of sweeping invasion or losing a number of troops to hold a key position.
More tough because of the high likelihood of being among the casualties myself.
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. it is fantasy if you think we have the votes to end tax cuts for the rich
without also ending them for the middle class.

It is fantasy to think that ending the Middle Class tax cuts won't hurt Middle class families.

It is fantasy to think that Repukes would vote for Unemployment Insurance unless they were getting something big in exchange.

It is fantasy to think that ending UI won't hurt millions of Americans.

So, do tell us, what is real about the "Progressive" position being spouted around here??
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
28. Well said. K&R n/t
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Cherchez la Femme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
31. Oh Pragmatism!
I just love Pragmatism! You rule, you noun you! Where would be be without you and instead with --ugh-- Principles! :puke:

Pragmatism's motto: No, we really can't for GOOD, PRACTICAL, REASONABLE reasons. Trust me
(really, would I exaggerate or lie to you?)
Especially when I've given up before I've even started, myself!
--now that's called PROACTIVE PRAGMATISM and dang, if Obama isn't the best at it!! :woohoo:


Now I just wonder why Obama didn't give that to us straight instead of this Hope, Change & Yes We Can! crapola... I guess they elicit a much stronger Pavlov's dog response -- some are still slavering for more even after all the negative reinforcement that's been doled out.

Ain't propaganda wonderful?
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golfguru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-10 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
39. Well thought out post K&R
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-10 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
40. "Taxes are about to go up for the middle class which would seriously threaten our recovery"
Edited on Mon Dec-13-10 09:43 AM by niceypoo
You are spewing the republican 'ending the Bush supply side tax cuts is punishment' talking point again. The 'recovery' is not dependent upon Bush tax cuts.

You will be assimilated, resistance is futile.
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