So many think they will "punish" the Democrats by sitting out November,

[old mark]

and I understand, but I just can't bring myself to let the GOP gain even a few seats.
"We are no good, but the others are worse"- Arturo Toscanini.

I think Obama treated even the Netroots gathering as a second rate event, and the Administration's disparaging of the left and progressive positions really angers me, but I don't want the brainless evil trash that make up the GOP to have the satisfaction of gloating over even a few victories.

We have had only crumbs from the table since 2008, and damn few of them, but for the previous 8 years we didn't even get the crumbs, and I expect congress will revert to that state of inactivity with a few more republican seats.
I see few reasons to be really happy with the Obama/Democratic administration, but it comes down to this - they are the best we have and the best we are likely to get for some time, and... the others are worse.


mark

[rpannier]

1. I don't disagree with you

But I'm not sure what it will take to get people in America to realize just how badly we've been governed over the past 4 decades.

I think a friend of mine put it best -- The country needs to hit rock bottom and then dig about a mile under before people will get a clue.

If someone is a public school teacher I can understand why they would not want to vote for some of the Dems in November

My rep is Phil Hare (D-IL) He does a pretty damned fine job as my congressional rep so I have no trouble voting for him

In the Senate race we're stuck with two clowns. I'll vote for the Dem. Not because it was Obama's seat. Because I don't give a damn who held the seat prior. But because I trust Kirk a little less than Giannoulias

[RichGirl]

6. I disagree with your friend.

I think we hit rock bottom with GWB. We don't appreciate how hard it has been for President Obama to dig us out of our hole. NOT ONE OF US knows what it's like to be president. Yet we assume it's just a matter of going through a check list of promises...wham bam...done in six months. He never said YES I CAN. He said YES WE CAN. And our job is to trust and support even when we don't understand or agree.

With a republican, especially a Palin type, we will, like your friend said dig a mile below bottom and get a clue. The clue will be that there is no getting out. And if Obama's term was like a car stuck in the mud, patience would have gotten us out.

One thing I've learned about democrats (the people not the leadership) they have no patience...they want it their way, NOW. That is their greatest weakness and if they don't realize it, it will be everyone's doom.

[Exilednight]

14. I don't believe I am actually going to say this .... but ..............

GWB was not rock bottom.

Someone once said that the easiest way to find out if your country is still worth living in is to do a gate test. If you raise the gate to your country, do the people run in, or run out?

But that doesn't mean we aren't in decline. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with not be the most powerful country in the world. England survived once their empire fell, so did Rome, Russia, Spain, and Japan.

Sadly, we've been badly served by every president by every president from Nixon on, except for possibly Carter.

One thing I've learned about democrats (the people not the leadership) they have no patience...they want it their way, NOW. That is their greatest weakness and if they don't realize it, it will be everyone's doom.

I blame this on the boomer generation. They traded in their peace sign for a Mercedes emblem. Then they've raised their children be just like them.

Now people will complain if their family does not have two cars, or their child(ren) isn't/aren't in the best school, or their house isn't in the right neighborhood.

This is the classic example of what is wrong with the boomer Democrats and their offspring: I've seen them complain that their tap water isn't good enough to drink so they go spend $1.50/bottle on bottled water. Then they complain about the amount of plastic we use. But the entire time they refuse to admit that they are part of the problem.

[RichGirl]

18. We are like...

Rich kids who find themselves in a homeless shelter but are still stamping their feet like spoiled brats. How old and how mature does a person have to get to FINALLY realize that life is NEVER going to dish them up a heaping plate of perfect. Every aspect of your life, your children, your parents, economics, EVERYTHING is less than perfect. We know that, accept that and focus on the good.

I recently heard an interview with Barbara Marx Hubbard where she was asked, why hasn't Obama ended the war. Her answer, a president can't end the war, he has too much opposition. She said that if the Dalai Lama himself were president he couldn't end the war.

This president has as much apposition as any president has ever had with the added element of pure, viral, racist hatred. Why can't we appreciate all his effort and accomplishments instead of the constant criticism. If I were him I wouldn't even run in 2012. I'd say "screw you" I'm going back to Bali...good luck with Palin.

The change I expected with Obama was not in what he would do, I'm old enough to know the limits of a president, but in who he was. A president who I could trust....trust his knowledge, intelligence, compassion and that he would do his best. I never imagined that people would expect Utopia in six weeks or less.

[Jennicut]

28. Gen X is just like the boomers? LOL.

First of all, we are not as powerful a group because there is much less of us. Gen Y is the bigger, more powerful group. I rebelled against my parent's politics. They loved Reagan, worship Faux news. My brother and my friends and I couldn't be more different in our politics.

[Exilednight]

39. I am a Gen Xer, too. And yes, we are turning into our parents ............

Most generations rebel against their parents when they are younger, but eventually they become just like them - or worse.

Yes, Gen X is a smaller generation, but that doesn't mean we aren't taking up their bad habits. Gen Xers still shop at Wal-Mart, drink bottled water, want the biggest house, two cars in the driveway, and all the other values our parents taught us. I also know plenty of Gen Xers who are center of right. I do believe that Gen X is the one generation where the majority of the generation is right of center. We are the first generation to grow up with right-wing radio, we came of age with fox news, we grew up on the fervor of raygun mania, and we are the last generation to grow up with the cold war. We were fed myths and legends of right-wing politicians, and many within our generation believe those myths and legends.

I'm not saying that every person falls into the mold, but there is a majority out there who do.

As far as your parents loving Reagan, well there are plenty of Boomers who remained Democrats but sold out their liberal values to move closer to the right. And what are they getting in the autumn of their lives? Everything they hated when they were in the spring of their lives.

[sabrina 1]

60. You're referring to the rightwing Boomers, right?

Because those on the left that I know hold no such views, boomers or otherwise.

George Bush was a boomer. So I'll assume you are not adapting the distortion of the far right that only 'lefties' were born during that period of time and are responsible for all the ills of this country.

Forgive me if I misinterpreted your post, but I'm sensitive about rightwing talking points having wasted far too much time trying to talk to rightwingers. And that is one of their favorites.

[Exilednight]

64. I am saying that many boomers who were liberals sold out their values a long time ago ............

Some went to the GOP, others moved the Democratic party closer to the center. It was Clinton, a boomer, who began with triangulation politics and help start the corporate leaning right DLC.

[sabrina 1]

67. A few, I'm sure there were. That is bound to happen when the

numbers are so great. But the vast majority of Boomers who destroyed this country WERE from the right, and the children of racists, the wealthy elite who felt threatened by the successes of the Civil Rights era. Even those like Clinton who sold out to a great extent, was never a racist, or anti women or pro-war.

This false meme needs to stop as it has come to be accepted that it is the left who dropped their advocacy for civil rights, womens rights, anti-war status etc and who went on to destroy this country. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The blame needs to be placed always where it belongs. On the reactionary rightwing in this country who studied hard how to take over this country and turn into a war-mongering, law-and-order society with all social programs destroyed.

What the left is guilty of, especially now, is reacting to these radicals, not prosecuting them for the crimes they have committed, and thereby allowing them to act with impunity. That's no small thing, but it is not the same as setting out to destroy the country, which the right, and their vast Boomer generation, has done.

[Exilednight]

68. This is the problem .............

No one wants to look in the mirror and put the blame where it belongs. There's a lot of apathy on the left. The wealthy elite makes up a very small minority in this country, but they have the biggest microphone since they have the money.

Many of the boomers did sell out and become rethugs and moved the Democratic party to the left. A Goldberg girl is now the Democratic Secretary of State. Bill Clinton's triangulation politics is also part of the problem, along with his long range economic plan.

Trust me, the rethugs played a big role in our current economic crisis. After all, they did control the House when Clinton was in office, but Clinton signed many of the deregulation bills, negotiated NAFTA into law, and oversaw the .com bust which saw many of our production jobs outsourced to third-world and emerging countries.

So yes, there is economic blood on both side of the political spectrum within the US. What the left needs to do is wake up and tell our leadership that we are not going to take this shit anymore.

Before we complain about how dirty someone elses house is, we need to clean up our own.

[sabrina 1]

73. Well, you won't find me disagreeing that

the Clinton administration and the majority of Democrats in Congress at the time, not to mention his economic team, worked together with Republicans to destroy the protections against Wall St. corruption and are directly responsible for where we are today.

Hillary Clinton comes from a Republican family. There are many 'democrats' who are and always were Republicans but differ only on a few issues.

This isn't just true of people born at a particular time. I don't think the Clintons were exactly big activists during the sixties except for Bill on the war. But then he had a personal interest in that so I don't see where he sold out. had he really bought in in the first place? Hillary doesn't have much of a history of being at the forefront of any of the movements from that period either. She probably supported the women's rights movement, but what else did she do?

So that's two boomers on the left who never really were all that involved but were caught up in a time when they personally could have been affected by what was going on and reacted to that.

I am opposed to labels anyhow, they mostly come from Madison Ave. 'Boomers' 'Gen.X' etc, it's all nonsense, imo. But it does help to keep people divided and that's the goal. People are people, and they do what they do regardless of age. Most are more influenced by their parents politics than by their peers so it's really a self perpetuating system.

The sixties scared a lot of people. People don't like change and at that time there was a lot of change. So, a few people moved on after the war ended and followed their careers. They thought they had won. How were they to know that waiting in the wings after the storms subsided, were those who had been pushed to the side for a while, and they were organizing and planning to get revenge for those changes and to overturn them if they could.

I don't think we can blame people from back then for not expecting that. I do agree with you about the Democratic Party though. They need to figure out who they represent or we will figure it out on our own.

[Chef Eric]

75. You're damned right I don't appreciate how "hard" it has been for President Obama.

I'm more concerned about how hard it has been for the millions of unemployed, and the tens of thousands of soldiers who just want to come home.

But I guess they're just impatient. They want it their way, NOW. The nerve of these people.

[WhiteTara]

30. are they saying we didn't hit rock bottom

during the past 8 years under the * cabal? If there is worse to come, we are truly f*cked.

[Exilednight]

41. That wasn't rock bottom. If you really want to see rock bottom ............

go to a country like Somalia or Sierra Leone.

I use to live in Turkey and I remember driving through the countryside and literally seeing people living in cardboard cities.

Trust me, we have a long way to go before we hit rock bottom, but by then it might be too late.

[WhiteTara]

47. well, that depresses me

thanks for the reality take. If cardboard cities are our rock bottom, I sure hope I don't see the rock bottom of Sierra Leone or Somalia.

[nenagh]

2. Suggestion only: Vote Dem in Nov to fight Fox News..

See it as a vote to help overcome the stranglehold that the RightWing has on the MSM..

As I see it, you may never change Fox, but you may force CNN and daytime MSNBC to turn more blue in their reporting..

And that perception change may affect the "undecideds"..

Just my 2 cents. :)

[tavalon]

74. Would you please post that as an OP?

I haven't seen a single reasonable argument for voting Democratic. This is the first one I can feel good about.

[old mark]

3. I will be voting for Joe Sestak for Senate,and Dan Onorato for Governor here in PA,

and I have NO PLANS at all to vote for any republicans- I see the example of republican government next door in NJ - massive teacher layoffs and no money at all for education or any social services, even police, with tax cuts and property tax caps for the wealthy that don't seem to "trickle down" to the middle class.

That's their plan and that's what they want for all of us.

I'm not satisfied or happy with the Democrats, but I certainly don't want any more republicans anywhere...it's that simple.


mark

[IndianaGreen]

4. We suck; but they suck more!

I am sure that's the winning slogan in the Fall.

:eyes:

[RichGirl]

10. I think the american people suck.

Most everyone I know is a democrat and I'm finding them more and more annoying and gravitating to those who are apolitical and simply want to talk about the lastest "US" magazine cover.

The democrats I know talk, like many on this board, as if they know EXACTLY what Obama should do in every situation. He should have done this, said that, hired that one not this one...on and on. Clearly they believe that THEY would be much better as president than Obama.

I used to think that the problem with this country was that half the population was stupid, but no...we are all stupid. Democrats are stupid in a different way. The stupidity of the "know it all" party is more ignorant, delusional and dangerous than the party that needs Fox News to tell them what's what.

[IndianaGreen]

15. It's the economy, stupid!

The voters will vote based on that.

[RichGirl]

24. Well...if that's the case, it proves my point....

...that people, on both sides, are stupid. If they vote for the side that sunk that economy because the current side in power didn't get us out of the hole overnight...then that is the definition of stupid.

[geckosfeet]

5. You are probably correct, but I do not understand how they can rationalize it that way.

Now is the time to kick it up another gear.

[IndianaGreen]

7. I am sure that those that support DLC ideology will do their bit

and make up for the loss of enthusiasm from the rest of the rank-and-file. After all, they are the only ones not suffering in the Great Recession. Their investments are paying off!

[geckosfeet]

38. Ah. So only those whose investments are paying off should vote.

I see that as inverted logic. Those who are getting screwed the worst should vote.

[TBF]

8. So that is fine - go to the polls and vote. That takes a few minutes.

Then we need to get to work building a movement against these politicians who only work for the owners (on both sides of the aisle). Your point is fine, but it is a very basic one. Voting is just one little activity and we have so much more to do.

[old mark]

13. Certainly - but many people won't bother to vote for what they percieve as a

conservative administration...

I really agree it is only one step, and that we must keep pushing tham every way possible and replace them as soon as possible.

But the republicans are still worse - that is Obama's only saving grace, IMO.


mark

[TBF]

29. Oh it's a very conservative administration, they always are

that shouldn't even slow us down. completely agree with you. Vote and then get to work. We spend too much time on topics like voting...

Onward :)

[IndianaGreen]

20. The system is rigged in favour of the powerful and wealthy

and the referees will blow the whistle on anything that threatens the status quo.

The last 9 and half years have clearly shown that American freedom and democracy are indeed an illusion.

[TBF]

32. I agree, the only way you have freedom is if you have the economic

means to actually do something. Do you think rich women ever worry about getting abortions?

I hold no illusions about electoral politics, and many of my friends would argue it's not even worth voting. I personally don't have a problem with voting. Go and vote, do the best you can with your selections (especially locally) and then we start a conversation after you've spend that 20 minutes doing your civic duty.

Most people believe that all they have to do is that very thing - go to the polling place and then they are done for 2 or 4 years. My point is that voting is only a starting point, and not a very important one. So much more we need to do...

[lostnfound]

9. The reasons that apathetic voters went to the polls in Nov 2008 won't motivate now

You might not like it, but there are ton of people who were angry with Bush for getting us into 2 wars, and some of them were Registered Republicans who voted for Obama because they believed he would end the war, and they feel fooled and mad about it. Anti-abortion (and anti-war) Catholics in swing states are who I have heard this from.

I've also heard from uninsured, apolitical Independents that wanted the government to actually provide health care like Britain or Canada, believing that this was one function that SHOULD be handled by government (since they themselves are uninsured). A fair portion of them see the health insurance reform bill that passed as yet another capitulation by Washington to suck up to big business (by mandating that insurance companies get an expanded pie).

After years of being on the left and seeing the compromises that Democratic presidents make in order to survive in our wealth-driven political scene, I recognize this as perhaps a 'political necessity' or 'the best we can get' in the present. I will most likely show up at the polls (to vote for Obama again in 2012, obviously). But my Republican and Independent relatives who aren't yet at that level of nuanced cynicism -- people whose cynicism is on and off like a light switch -- will either be suckered in by a smooth talking cowboy-hat wearing Republican or won't bother going at all.

If Obama gets us out of Iraq/Afghanistan, maybe things will be different. If he can appear to be significantly more driven by a sensible but populist agenda (and actually get airtime as such), maybe things will be different. With all the corporate money blowing in to Republican coffers (as a result of the Supreme Court Citizens United ruling) it will be tough to do so.

[OHdem10]

11. Some might think, why help the Demsocrats continuously enable

the RW Agenda. It is beginning to look as if there is
only way for real change. Let the GOP completely implement
their policies. The people must see the abject failure
and feel the pain that the a GOP success can bring.

This business of the Media switching every couple years
to let one party then the other win the WH. The GOP therefore
never is held accountable for ill-effects of their policies.
The working class never really gets to see the difference
in the two parties. I will not name names but think about
a certain Senator from Nebraska and move on to the Deep
South.

Bill Clinton stopped the brunt of GOP Policies but surely
enacted GOP Policies. Affirmed Conservatism. Now,
Obama is doing the same--Affirming Conservatism.

I think most Liberals feel, I have not left anything
MY Party has discarded the values I hold dear. My Party
tells me I do not count. Appeasing the Right is the
best tool we can use. I say Continuing to enable the
Conservative Economic Fundamentalists is morally wrong.
and many may say. Let us have complete Republican Rule.

So far by electing Obama we have made GWB administration
not appear so bad or so wrong. If the GOP had won they
would have put us in the real ditch and the people would
have had a concrete understanding of what is wrong with
GOP ideology. Instead, Obama stopped the collapse and
the people never saw the failure of GOP policy. The country
will be coming into a correction as a result of Obama
Policies. Obama will never get credit. GOP will get
the country on the Mend and Claim it is result of therir
policies.

The GOP have convinced at least half the country that'
Bill Clinton was successful only because the GOP congress
forced him to enact GOP Policies.

Many of us are sick and tired of being sick and tired.
We are no longer willing to support GOP enablers.'

corrected sp. errors

[TBF]

35. I understand the anger and hurt, but still can't agree to that. It hurts

too many people who are powerless to begin with. I think we'll have more impact if we think about strategies beyond the voting.

[a la izquierda]

12. I will vote for whom I can...

but considering Democrats in my district were too chickenshit to run against Tom Cole, I don't get to vote for representation in the House.

[Historic NY]

16. STAYING HOME rewards Repukes for past policies & wishes they return.

[JoePhilly]

19. Their strategy has 2 very simple parts ....

1) Get the American people so feed up with government that most will give up and stay home or "vote the bums out".
2) Scare the racist, xenophobes in their base enough to energize them to get out and vote.

That's the plan, nothing more.

If #1 works ... since you trade Ds for Rs, you can get the GOP back in power.
If #2 works ... your base, which stayed home in 2008, comes out in force and you get the GOP back in power.

You do #1 by blocking everything and harping on a deficit that you don't care about.
You do #2 by scaring the xenophobic sheep about the scary black man in the white house and the immigrants.

This is why the GOP doesn't want to discuss issues ... their strategy isn't based on issues. Its a very simple calculation about how to regain power.

Meanwhile, we bicker about the pace of change on very specific issues. And oddly, we get "fed up" and declare that we will stay home. Which is exactly what the GOP wanted in the first place.

[Historic NY]

21. "choice we have in Nov, going forward or going backward ".....

[JoePhilly]

27. It is that simple.

[Exilednight]

43. Here's the problem ............

The right-wingnuts are energized and motivated by their tea-bagger subsection.

The left is disenfranchised because we were promised that with a 60 seat Senate, and a Democratic president that change would come extreme and swiftly, but even with those numbers it has failed to materialize.

Democrats are infighting on both sides of the aisle. Their is truth to both sides of argument. The President hasn't been tough enough, and Dems in Congress have been resistant thanks to the right-wing activist.

No president is served well when cheered on by semiproductive legislation, and no congress is well served when not pushed.

The bigger problem is that there is no one on the left who is actually making as much noise as the tea-party, and when you ask them to they quickly become rather silent. Democrats could just as easily counter tea-party activism, but they refuse to do it. Supporters of the president blame members of congress, but do nothing to push congress to change. On the flip side, critics of the president don't organize and make their voice heard, either.

[Historic NY]

59. Okay then what is worst whining or doing something nobody promised a rose garden w/o thorns...

its just a poor whiney ass excuse to say your disenfranchised..you can say that after 4 yrs not 2. There is so much crappolo to fix.

[Exilednight]

63. Then you didn't fully read the post, otherwise you would of seen that .........

what I said about the problem with the Democratic party and how to fix it.

[JoePhilly]

17. Folks should think about the recent extension of unemployment benefits ...

If the GOP held more seats ... it does not pass.

That one example should be enough to make it clear that the parties are different.

You can be sure that if the GOP gets the majority, they'll push to reinstate the tax cuts for the rich.

Think the GOP will "fix" health care?
Think the GOP will "fix" the financial industry?
Invest in Infrastructure?
Invest in alternative energy?
Cut defense spending in anyway?
Do anything about DADT?
More or less likely to invade Iran?

Right now, we are in a tug of war. The GOP and sadly some conservative Dems are pulling in one direction, and a roughly equal number of decent dems are pulling in the other direction ... so the rope isn't moving much. From 2000-2006 that rope was being pulled in the wrong direction.

Add a few GOP members now, and that rope will move alright ... back in the wrong direction.

We simply can not let the GOP gain any ground.

[cornermouse]

22. Its not about "punishing" anyone.

Nor is it about rewarding the GOP for disastrous policies. And its not about "spoiled brats" as demanding "my way or the highway". Its about voting for the person who represents your ideals.

Its about getting completely (both soldiers and mercenaries of all stripes) out of the mideast today not at some fuzzy date in the future and oh by the way, we're leaving the equivalent of an unofficial army behind.

Its about not dismantling the public school system and firing teachers.

Its about not rewarding Wall Street for corruption.

Its about creating an real and workable single payer or public option. That hasn't happened.

Its about not catering to the GOP, corporations, and the wealthy on multiple levels.

Its about looking at the poor and the middle class and giving them something other than lip service through lofty speeches.

[Lasher]

23. Obama is not George W. Bush

It's not much but it did get him a Nobel Prize.

[impik]

50. You win the the award for the most ridiculous post of the day

Demagogic, baseless, teabagging comment. I wish you many years of president Palin.

[Lasher]

71. Oh sorry, I must have interrupted your fan club meeting.

"Be careful who you choose as your hero or who you choose to deify, be it Clay Aiken or Barack Obama. You put all your hope and all your dreams and all your ideas about stuff into one human being. They're a human being they're going to let you down." - Craig Ferguson

[RBInMaine]

25. Good post. Anyone who thinks helping RePUKES by default is "punishing" Democrats, that is STUPID!

[Bluenorthwest]

26. In November, none of us votes for Obama so get over it

In November, also, none of us gets a voice on a national basis. Try to cope with the fact that when I vote for my Democratic Rep, cross nominated by the Independent Party of Oregon, I will be voting for a man who campaigned for the candidate Obama only to be finger wagged and chided by the President he helped make.
In addition you forget that our ballots are never just about personalities who are candidates, but also about ideas, new laws, and the directions our local and State governments will be taking. None of that has to do with Obama. Or any other person outside this district, county or State. Those are very important votes to cast, although the 'persons are all' set seems to forget that they exist.
So you can not make me vote as you wish, there is no Obama on the ballot. Thank God.

[Jennicut]

31. I will be voting in November. How can I not? I get to vote for Ned Lamont for Governor.

And Blumenthal for my Senator. And Chris Murphy for my rep. I do get that people in other states have much more suckier representation. In those cases, it is very hard to bite the bullet but my philosophy has always been to keep the Rethugs out at all costs and I have been doing that since 1996 when I was old enough to vote.

[Hansel]

57. And that's how to do it. Get more progressives in.

Not by allowing the progressives we already have in to get beat so it's that much harder to get that real progressive majority we need.

Now just replace Lieberman with someone who is actually a Democrat and we will be farther ahead.

[Jennicut]

65. I hope he just retires in 2012, his poll #'s here are crap right now.

[tomp]

33. look, how many times do i have to say it....

.....before you get it?

THAT IS THE FUCKING PLAN!!!!!!!!!

they throw bones and crumbs and and generally do exactly what the republicans would have done otherwise.

then they expect you'll to vote for them because they're "better".

IF YOU KEEP VOTING FOR THEM YOU WILL NEVER GET BETTER THAN CRUMBS AND BONES.

VOTING IS NOT THE ANSWER. MASS INDEPENDENT POLITICAL ACTION IS THE ANSWER.

DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS BOTH SERVE OUR ECONOMIC MASTERS.

WE MUST WREST OUR DEMANDS FROM WHOMEVER IS IN POWER.

it never ceases to amaze me how people cannot see this.

[TBF]

36. MASS INDEPENDENT POLITICAL ACTION IS THE ANSWER.

bingo.

[tomp]

37. the voice crying in the wilderness thanks you. nt

[Exilednight]

42. I wrote about this the other day ..............

with the hope of trying to motivate people to actually do something. You can see the results of how well it went over here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=387539&mesg_id=387539

Needless to say, I found the results rather disappointing. Everyone wants to blame someone, but when asked to do something to change it, well, let's just say that that seems to be asking too much of them.

[RichGirl]

46. "It's a Bugs Life"

We are the ants. I get it.

But I don't think it's as black and white as the conspiracy theorists think it is. I don't think everyone in goverment is evil and "in on it".

For practical purposes...how do you get a mass of independents together and what kind of action do they take. No amount of people on the streets, rebelling, etc is going to change anything.

It's my opinion that the only way it can change is from the inside. People on the inside having epiphanies or people of conscious infiltrating and working on the inside. I believe, like Anne Frank, that people are basically good at heart.

In the meantime...I don't believe all insiders are against us and until I know more I'll always vote.....democratic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2jcNlofO4&videos=X2ApbpiBg64

[tomp]

48. your way has proved wrong over and over again.

the only thing that changes anything is people on the street.

you're entitled to your opinion but it doesn't comport with history.

and fuck you for labeling my opinion as conspiracy theory.

[Hansel]

58. It's a little more complex than that and it's not an either or.

We need both.

And I highly doubt there is a plan other than a plan to get re-elected. The right and the so called middle have proven to be far more reliable voters than the left. And the media leans right. So who do you think they are going to cater to? The left who throws a fit every time they don't get the perfect pony they want, or the more reliable voters who will vote even if it's against their own best interest.

Until MASS INDEPENDENT POLITICAL ACTION has been established they will continue to be very cautious about taking left turns. So call me when you get it established. Because we aren't anywhere near there yet and all I see the left doing right now is complaining rather than working to make things better.

[tranche]

61. If my memory didn't span more than 10 years I may have agreed with you.

But it does, and I would have liked to see where we would have been if Gore was elected.

[NC_Nurse]

34. I'll vote. But I won't bust my ass like I did in 2008. Nor will I give what's

left of my money - with the possible exception of the few liberals left in congress who I may donate to.

[ibegurpard]

40. I have no intention of punishing anyone

My votes are going to someone who shares my basic philosophy that the marketplace is not the solution to everything in society. Currently, there is no political party out there that seems to share that philosophy.

[Radical Activist]

44. Second rate event?

Obama is doing a limited number of political events right now given that he's kind of busy running the country. I was surprised he delivered a video message. If Obama takes the time to do that and people still gripe about it, maybe it says more about the personality of the gripers.

[pmorlan1]

45. It's not punishment

I don't think a lot of people consider it punishing the Democrats by sitting out. I think they are just tired of REWARDING them for broken promises. I think they are tired of being played. Besides, if the Democrats are going to carry on in the tradition of Bush maybe some people think that it's better to have Republicans in control because at least then you would have somewhat of an opposition party to fight against the worse policies. When the Dems control things we know the Republicans won't object to following in Bush's footsteps on Constitutional violations. Sadly, we have far too many people who only object to bad policy if the Republicans are doing it but when the Dems do the exact same thing or worse they actually defend them. Because of that maybe it's actually better to have the Republicans win. Pretty sad, huh?

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadMaddie]

51. Mark

You are right!

I wish more Dems would think about another way to view what's going to happen in November.

As Democrats we need to get off our asses and support Democratic folks who are running against Republicans this November. If we add more Democratic members it makes it easier for the President to push better legislation which is not weakened by the Repugs or Blue Dems.

[SunsetDreams]

69. + 1000

[judesedit]

52. If they sit out or vote republican, they will be punishing THEMSELVES!

Are they really that stupid?

[Chef Eric]

76. And if Democratic candidates have that attitude, they will lose.

In other words, they will be punishing themselves. Are they really that stupid?

[derby378]

53. The only workable solution is to elect better Democrats

That has to be done in the primary. Pennsylvania Democrats followed this advice when they chose Sestak over Specter as their Senate nominee. Granted, Specter switched parties in an attempt to save his own political career, but how many Dems caved on important legislation for the exact same reason?

[Oregone]

54. "Punish" them? Maybe they just don't want to "reward" them

I guess it comes down to if people believe votes are entitled or earned.

[tranche]

62. I think it comes down to how fast you'd like to veer right.

[Jennicut]

66. I like to vote "for" a Dem then against a Rethug.

However, some races are not ideal and the choices are limited. I think that is when you ask yourself it is worth it to keep the Repub out of office? Will it matter...is this Dem worth it do vote for? Sometimes the independent in the race may have ideals that match your ideals better. But keeping out the Repub is usually what I will choose. Voting is very personal, I think sometimes people forget that.

[WingDinger]

55. The left are stupid.; The right said Obama promised trans, and bi-p

And THEY have determined that he hasnt done either, as if they really thought he would do that to THEIR satisfaction. That was simply concern trolling, and we ate it up. Now, we take their expectations, and proclaim, that Obama lied. We forget that all his promises were BEFORE Bush admitted that he screwed EVERYTHING up. So, we allow the concern trolls to get us disillusioned. We are Stupid. The rethugs dont care at all, if their own dont deliver. They will happily vote them back in. So, we demand an immortal, or we will pout. All that stupid horseshit about THE ONE, we ate it up. STUPID.

[iamthebandfanman]

56. i dont see many people suggesting that at all.

of course youll have a few people who are frustrated and will say such a thing out of anger, but even they know thats not true.


if you care about politics, you dont sit home on election days..


if you are at DU, clearly you have a great interest in politics...
so...

[quaker bill]

70. One cannot punish a political party

The party is the collection of folks who vote for their candidates. It has no separate existence and cannot be taken to the woodshed. When people do not vote for their candidates, political parties just become smaller, they are not "punished". If the left wishes to teach the party a lesson, they first need to be part of it, then they need to organize enough to take it over. Once you take over, you can fire anyone you want.

Howard Dean taught us this much.

[golfguru]

72. It's not us who will sit out

it is the freaking "indies" who are deserting dems.

[Sherman A1]

77. I agree with You

However, I am exceptionally disappointed with this Administration and Congress..

I will hold my nose in November and vote straight Democratic.

I will however, not contribute to ANY campaign.

[harun]

78. They only represented the Corporations, they had their chance.

"The others are worse" is not an ideology I wish to support.